CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on October 08, 2014, 09:36:06 PM
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WARNING
This list is not exhaustive by any means. I have not heard everything.
BACKGROUND
I copied this list from my post in HF since I’m perma-banned from the thread. Consider the HF post out of date. There are corrections and further elucidations here. And there will be more based on feedback from people here on this forum. Feel free to offer additional feedback. I'd like to make this more of a "Changstar" effort.
The list is by approximate price give or takes a few hundred - not in order of sound quality – and comments are only in relation to HD800, although possible to extrapolate them to other headphones. If there happen to be other headphones which gel particularly well with an amp, I will mention them.
THIS IS WHERE I AM COMING FROM
I only like the HD800 under certain conditions. The overall frequency response of the HD800 is a bit too screwy for my tastes. I find that EQ doesn’t work well for the HD800. Some of the strangeness of the HD800 is inherent from the internal reflections and refractions of the cup design. Arnaud ran a simulation to demonstrate this. Further “Free-air” / damped measurements seem to confirm Arnaud’s results. Therefore my preference to tame some of the HD800’s behavior is with mechanical modifications, namely variations of the Anaxilus Mod.
In general, the solid-state is not as good as the tube or hybrid stuff. The Ragnarok, which is competitive (but different sounding, but not that different) from the tube amps, is the sole exception.
Also, I've realized that I have a preference for amps with output impedance from 2 to 12 for the HD800. There are exceptions of course. Amplifiers of extremely poor value will not be mentioned in the list proper.
LIST OF AMPS FOR HD800 HERE
Schiit Vali - Extremely resolving for price. Tube wetness. Hint of warmth in bass. Smooth neutral / slightly bright treble. Tends to impart a certain quality to timbre, but not I’m gonna bitch for $120. I use it myself. At the time it was released (before the version 2 Schiit amps), it was better than most of the other Schiit amps. Tube microphonics can be an issue. If it’s bad, exchange it. That’s probably why it isn’t $99.
Matrix mStage - Warmish solid state if input caps are left in place. If you DAC’s offset is zero, you can remove the caps and direct couple for more clarity and a less warm sound. Lacks resolution and microdynamics compared to better brethren. Set at high gain. Consider resistor mods to push op-amps into cheesy class A.
Schiit Valhalla 2 - Probably top third of this list in terms of SQ. Yes, that's how good it is. Fast, clear, resolving - more than holds its own compared to Crack. Not as warm though and tends toward neutral presentation. Does not work nearly as well with low Z or low sensitivity orthodynamic headphones. Best to stick with high Z Senns or Beyers. Not an insult to Schiit or Eddie Current, but someone made an Eddie Current amp for $349. Anaxilus Mods preferred with Valhalla.
Bottlehead Crack - Must have the speedball upgrade for use with HD800. Warm (but again tubes play role). The 120 ohm output impedance could be a bit too much for the HD800. Not resolving and controlled enough compared to the best here to take full advantage of the HD800 capabilities, but a good value proposition especially if you can DIY and add tweaks to your own build. Most owners say it pairs better with the less demanding HD6XX series.
EC Super 7 (available used only) - Bassy and thicker. Darker sounding the most stuff here. Balance can vary though quite a bit depending upon tubes. Can mix and match 6SN7s for an almost infinite variety of textures, timbres, tonal balances. Great slam and microdynamics. Very good resolution, at least with the versions with the ElectraPrint transformers. S7’s have been modified for better clarity and less thickness.
Luxman P1u (available used only) - basically sounds like a ECZD lite. Slightly more veiled, slightly less fast, but just a euphonic in a no hassle solid-state package. The P1u sounds dated – it’s less technically competent than most other amps in list now. But again, how you can get that luxurious ECZD sound in a solid-state package?
Bryston BHA-1 - Delineated treble attacks, but actually works well with HD800. Neutral sound. Some reports of MOSFETS getting hot resulting in bass mud galore. Recommended if you live in a cool climate. Do not stack on top of anything else and make sure there is good circulation. This amp does not like heat. Good staging for solid-state compliments HD800. Flatter than the better amps, but if you want solid state, one of few choices.
DNA Sonnett 2 - Has the DNA house sound with inner warmth, intimacy, immediacy. Improvement in clarity and resolution over the Sonnett 1. Basically sounds like the Stratus but without the DHTs - that last bit of microdynamics, separation, and staging. HD800s out of the box work with Sonnett 2 without mods of any sort.
HDVD600 / 800 - I had my doubts, but a great match with HD800. A very refined sound (HD800 is smooth with this amp), but lacks the slam the better amps have. Balanced mode a must for staging, layering, separation, openness. Not an exceptional amp, but very solid choice considering price. I found the amp circuitry to impart its own sound which allows the benefit of using a variety of sources while maintaining synergy with the HD800. This can either be a good thing, or a bad thing. I believe the output impedance is ~50ohms which would explain a lot of things. Not a good amp to use with orthos.
Schiit Ragnarok – Best solid-state amp in headphonia and the only one I think is capable of competing with the great tube amps. Highly resolving and must be careful with source. With the right pieces in place, the smoothest sounding amp, solid-state or tube I have ever heard. And with solid-state cleanness, clarity, and tautness. I use the HD800s with “light” Anaxilus Mods with the Rag. Best solid-state amp for HD800 period.
ECP DSHA-1 - Solid-state but not solid-state sounding amp. Not tubey sounding, but has treble characteristics akin to tubes. Against the big boy amps, just a tiny notch below in terms of explosiveness, resolution, microdynamics, clarity. (Honestly, I don’t think most people would notice.) One of the best sounding solid-state solutions. Works well with Joe and John Grados too.
EC ZDSE - Euphonic sounding amp. Luxurious ride in a Mercedes. Slightly veiled when compared to the big boy stuff. Very good stage. Warm and euphonic. Ironically, treble is the sharpest (just sharp, not nasty) of all EC amps; but all other EC amps tend to sound "not bright". I've noticed most ZDSE owners have a thick copper cable with HD800. The older ZD (non-SEs) had better caps and were less veiled sounding. Keep the SE version at 12 ohms output impedance. It sounds best that way.
DNA Stratus - Slightly wet sound. Latest version and upgrades is an improvement all- around with better bass articulation, staging, blackness, etc. Intimate sounding and actually good with cheap Chinese tubes (my personal preference would be probably be the more solid-state sounding EML Mesh or Psvane Replica WR275, but many like the big bottle Shuguang 2A3s for a lusher presentation). Works straight out of box with HD800, although with latest upgrades, more care must be taken with source. Beyers, TH900, D7000, and many other dynamics also work really well with the Stratus.
Cavalli LG – My favorite Cavalli amp. Only as good as the tubes used. HD800 sounded great with rare vintage Mullard CV-181s. I haven’t even begun to explore the tubes this amp can use. The LG has the Cavalli trademark smooth sound - very refined and resolving which suits the HD800 tendency toward dryness. Fantastic with Paradox Slants, HE-5, Abyss too.
EC BA – Neutral or a tag organic sounding amp with new Cinemag transformers. Best staging, layering, separation, openness of any of the amps here by far because of high-frequency AC heater stolen from outer space satellite military applications. Need to be careful of source. Sometimes not a forgiving amp, but choice of tubes makes a difference. Since KR PX-4 tubes are unreliable, unobtainable, or a rip-off, get a BA built for the 2A3 tube where there is a wider variety of great tubes at modest cost. Yes, you can do that – a 2A3 BA.
EC 4-45 - Best production amp to take advantage of the HD800s technical capabilities period. Take the BA and turn things up a notch in realism. Soundstage is super precise, three dimensional, deep, and open. Not forgiving of source and is neutral / lean. However, the 45 tube presents the sweetest treble ever. Advise using with R2R DAC. Avoid if you like artificial warmth - it's a 45 tube after all.
Apex Teton - If the Luxman and EC ZDSE is on the list, the Apex Teton (similar in presentation) is a no brainer. In most technicalities, Teton is superior to both. The problem is cost. Most notable weakness is a lack of fully extended tonal dynamic range and a more relaxed laid back tempo; but some might like that with the HD800. [Anax from Pete's Esoteric Transport]
OTHER MENTIONS:
Woo WA5, but the time you are done with cap upgrades, and the necessary x2 mega regulator tubes to avoid HD800s from sounding limp-dick, plus x2 driver tubes, plus x2 300B... you get the point. And honestly, it doesn't compete as well with the other big boy amps. But its sound is considerable lusher than any of the others. Keyword is lush, so certainly a consideration.
The two Bakoon amps also work well with HD800 from the current mode out jack with very nice tone with loss of ultimate technicalities; but too expensive / poor value unless you pay 50%-75% MSRP via a Massdrop.
Apex Teton is very good, but I need more serious head-time with this amp to say. It's an OTL amp and definitely has that OTL sound. I have conflicting reports from people on how resolving this amp is compared to the best, and need to hear it myself with known DAC and recordings to verify this aspect. Pyrates are getting their hands on this, but it will be some time. It is not cheap though.
I avoided mention any amps which gooified the HD800 because I feel HD800 gooification or not taking advantage of at least 70% of what the HD800 can technically do is just plain wrong. You are better off with an Audeze instead of gooifying the HD800. Amps like WA2 and Leben belong in this category.
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No Levi?
Excellent summary (for the beginner I am, at least)!
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No Levi?
Excellent summary (for the beginner I am, at least)!
It doesn't officially exist yet.
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I have no fucking idea what you guys are blabbering about.
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If the Luxman and EC ZDSE is on the list, the Apex Teton is a no brainer IMO. Most technicalities superior to both, problem is cost. I heard it from Pete's Esoteric transport so I'm sure others haven't been as fortunate in that regard. I'd say it's biggest flaw is a lack of fully extended tonal dynamic range and a more relaxed, laid back tempo but some might like that with the HD800.
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Very helpful and interesting list! The highend solid state options are quite limited. How big is the jump from BHA-1 to Ragnarok? There is also Audio-GD Master 9 that might throw a curveball here.
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Answer on Rag vs. BHA-1: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1803.msg48999.html#msg48999
I'm of the same opinion.
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Thanks! Yeah, I got the BHA-1 for half off MSRP, so I guess its not too bad.
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Thanks a ton for this list. I seem to recall an earlier version on HF if I'm not mistaken. Moron swabbie question: Do you feel the Rag is a relatively safe blind purchase? I have serious reservations on plunging on a TOTL tube amp without listening to a bunch of them first. The price point of the Rag, and the lack of tube expenses seems comparatively safe, even if one wanted to move in the tube direction in the future.
I tried out the Valhalla 2 vs. my current WA7/tube psu combo, and ended up returning the Valhalla due to the soundstage being comparatively compressed, and inferior resolution. Overall tonality of the Val2 was very good (a bit better than the fully upgraded WA7 IMO), but it didn't quite have the technicalities I was looking for. Note that this was comparing the stock Val2 to the Woo with dialed in tubes - not fair. Regardless, the WA7 combo (even with upgraded tubes) still lacks balls, so it needs to go...soon.
walk the plank2
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Thanks! Yeah, I got the BHA-1 for half off MSRP, so I guess its not too bad.
Good job!
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Thanks a ton for this list. I seem to recall an earlier version on HF if I'm not mistaken. Moron swabbie question: Do you feel the Rag is a relatively safe blind purchase? I have serious reservations on plunging on a TOTL tube amp without listening to a bunch of them first. The price point of the Rag, and the lack of tube expenses seems comparatively safe, even if one wanted to move in the tube direction in the future.
I tried out the Valhalla 2 vs. my current WA7/tube psu combo, and ended up returning the Valhalla due to the soundstage being comparatively compressed, and inferior resolution. Overall tonality of the Val2 was very good (a bit better than the fully upgraded WA7 IMO), but it didn't quite have the technicalities I was looking for. Note that this was comparing the stock Val2 to the Woo with dialed in tubes - not fair. Regardless, the WA7 combo (even with upgraded tubes) still lacks balls, so it needs to go...soon.
walk the plank2
This is just my opinion but the Rag will destroy the WA7 or WA5 with full upgrades. I don't care if the WA7 is powered by a nuclear reactor. I've heard it many times.
Rag is the safest blind purchase I can think of on it's own merits. However, it's not safe if you have any weirdness or issues upstream from your sources. It will spotlight whatever is wrong upstream assuming you have capable enough headphones or speakers.
Rag soundstage is wide but not very deep or layered. To my ears, that flat SS is it's biggest weakness.
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Rag is the safest blind purchase I can think of on it's own merits. However, it's not safe if you have any weirdness or issues upstream from your sources. It will spotlight whatever is wrong upstream assuming you have capable enough headphones or speakers.
Rag soundstage is wide but not very deep or layered. To my ears, that flat SS is it's biggest weakness.
Cool. Sounds promising, the layering is definitely a concern, though I can't imagine that an upgraded WA7 is stellar in this aspect either (it was considerably better than the stock Val2). Still, a flat presentation would be a deal breaker. The ability to drive orthos appeals to me as well, in regards to the Rag.
Anyhow, I wish I would have had a bit more sense when I bought the WA7, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere. Life will move on.
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Rag is the safest blind purchase I can think of on it's own merits. However, it's not safe if you have any weirdness or issues upstream from your sources. It will spotlight whatever is wrong upstream assuming you have capable enough headphones or speakers.
Rag soundstage is wide but not very deep or layered. To my ears, that flat SS is it's biggest weakness.
Cool. Sounds promising, the layering is definitely a concern, though I can't imagine that an upgraded WA7 is stellar in this aspect either (it was considerably better than the stock Val2). Still, a flat presentation would be a deal breaker. The ability to drive orthos appeals to me as well, in regards to the Rag.
Anyhow, I wish I would have had a bit more sense when I bought the WA7, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere. Life will move on.
WA7 doesn't sound bad. Bit pricey for my tastes but not bad. I wouldn't worry about it. I started with a Fiio E5 if that makes you feel better.
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Anyhow, I wish I would have had a bit more sense when I bought the WA7, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere. Life will move on.
I recommend buying something from the list, comparing, and then you can let go of the WA7 easily...it is purdy though!
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I'm currently using a Schiit Vali with my HD800, and couldn't be happier. It sounds fantastic.
The upgrade path from the Vali is like $130 after shipping and taxes to something that leaves me eating noodles for a whole month...
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Cool. Sounds promising, the layering is definitely a concern, though I can't imagine that an upgraded WA7 is stellar in this aspect either (it was considerably better than the stock Val2). Still, a flat presentation would be a deal breaker. The ability to drive orthos appeals to me as well, in regards to the Rag.
Anyhow, I wish I would have had a bit more sense when I bought the WA7, but I guess everyone has to start somewhere. Life will move on.
I felt the Rag stage was upfront, but also very deep and layered. Anax is probably listening to some experimental mega-buck tube amp with this PWD2 from a vintage CDP, so that's where he's coming from. When Anax got a good listen, he heard it through the M7 DAC which isn't all that deep or layered compared to other DACs stronger in that dept. (The SFD-1 I "upgraded" to murders the M7 in terms of stage depth and layering complexity)
The great thing about tubes is that you can pick tubes to get a good result - say with HD800. I have not heard the power supply w/ WA7. WA7 was not impressive without it, but people I to trust say it's much better with it. With the Rag, it becomes DAC rolling, and thats more difficult to do than tube rolling. Generally if you have a smooth DAC, the Rag will yield great results with HD800.
Also the Rag doesn't have the mid-bass slam a lot of the big tube amps have here, but it does have the most heft in the sub / low bass I've heard. At least top two or three.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
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The great thing about tubes is that you can pick tubes to get a good result - say with HD800. I have not heard the power supply w/ WA7. WA7 was not impressive without it, but people I to trust say it's much better with it. With the Rag, it becomes DAC rolling, and thats more difficult to do than tube rolling. Generally if you have a smooth DAC, the Rag will yield great results with HD800.
Also the Rag doesn't have the mid-bass slam a lot of the big tube amps have here, but it does have the most heft in the sub / low bass I've heard. At least top two or three.
I was able to listen to the HD800 at a meet recently through a Glenn OTL, and the amount of low end slam was impressive and addictive. The impact was in a different league than the Val2 or the the Crack/Speedball. It wasn't mushy or gooey either, it sounded great for the price. The owner required listeners to adjust the volume through his DAC which struck me as a bit worrisome (channel imbalance low on the volume dial apparently). Still for the price, it might be worthy of consideration. I'm tempted to get one, but apparently there's a year long waiting list.
As to the Rag, I currently use the Gungnir/Wyrd as a source, and plan on not upgrading until next year at some point. When you say "smooth", I assume you are talking aren't talking about macro dynamics, but rather detail or tonal presentation (i.e. no DAC induced treble funk)?
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he heard it through the M7 DAC which isn't all that deep or layered compared to other DACs stronger in that dept.
That's a good point, I'll have to remember to qualify that in future.
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@Joel.
yes on the OTLs - probably get more slam from those with HD800. high output impedance causes change in FR at 100Hz were Z curve happens to have a peak.
Gungnir/Wyrd is my second DAC with the Rag. Should be fine as long as the power in your house is OK or filtered. Smooth DAC setup with slam and bite when called for.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out...soft and flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Biggest issue I had with it was probably the utter lack of excitement. The BHA-1 at least had some slam in the lower end even if if the sound was coarse and grainy (with the 800). The LCD-3 from the master 9 was way too dark..
Maybe we got a defective unit.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
Yeah definitely balanced. I was surprised as well (since this thing was touted to have mucho watts).
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
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I was able to listen to the HD800 at a meet recently through a Glenn OTL, and the amount of low end slam was impressive and addictive. The impact was in a different league than the Val2 or the the Crack/Speedball. It wasn't mushy or gooey either, it sounded great for the price. The owner required listeners to adjust the volume through his DAC which struck me as a bit worrisome (channel imbalance low on the volume dial apparently). Still for the price, it might be worthy of consideration. I'm tempted to get one, but apparently there's a year long waiting list.
Very cool, Joel...you heard a Glenn amp. Have been wanting to listen to one for a long while and if I go up to SF I can listen to one. The spartan look has grown on me, Glenn is a great guy, they really seem a labor of love. The amps look to be set up differently with Glenn trying to work within a given case size or with certain tubes that he thinks will be driven well or cheap to populate (not all the time). Interesting and I would think that they could vary a lot in sound depending upon design and tubes used. Would be great to see a list of the designs that he has made for people. When I have a chance, I will try to listen to ClaytonSF's amp.
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Thks for the List Purr1n.
Just a fix to do pliz . The good name is DNA Sonett 2 not SoNNett ;) . Sonett as the 70s SAAB Sonett ;)
(http://images.hemmings.com/wp-content/uploads//2012/01/9403202-640-0-e1326135483981.jpg)
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
I can give you a better answer compared to the Rag when I get mine in, but I never found the M9 to be lacking in transparency. Of course my opinion needs context... I would say the M9 isn't the last word in transparency. It lacks resolution.. especially in the bass. Although this was using the M7 via OR5.
What about Decaware? I really have no real opinions about these amps but I've been recommended the CSP3 by a few folks. I've seen them go for well under $1K used... might be a possible contender.
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The older Decware I'd classify as Lebenesque done right when I heard it. The new stuff seems to be a bit less colored from impressions I've read.
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It's fashionable to mock everything Ray Samuels ever does, but with the right tubes the Raptor is a good match for the 800. The cliche "tube amp for solid state lovers" definitely applies.n
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Any portable(ish) recommendations? I prefer the pico power to the Leckerton UHA760 (ada4627-1brz) with the HD800. Should I be looking to something like the L3?
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
The M9 sounds clearer and does not have that "smoky layer" to the sound. On the other hand, the Rag has better texture rendition and focus. Provided the texture is actually part of the recording (and not an added flavor), then both could be some traits of transparency.
Kingwa mention on his TOTL product's webpage - and this has been my experience, too - that they are somewhat sensitive to power cable (or power quality in general). I can confirm for both the M7 and M9, they sound lifeless with the wrong AC cable.
When I first got the M7 I said "WTF, doesn't sound at all like I remember it!". Sound was super thick and warm and no dynamics. Changed AC cable and plugged it directly in the wall with great effect.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
The M9 sounds clearer and does not have that "smoky layer" to the sound. On the other hand, the Rag has better texture rendition and focus. Provided the texture is actually part of the recording (and not an added flavor), then both could be some traits of transparency.
Kingwa mention on his TOTL product's webpage - and this has been my experience, too - that they are somewhat sensitive to power cable (or power quality in general). I can confirm for both the M7 and M9, they sound lifeless with the wrong AC cable.
When I first got the M7 I said "WTF, doesn't sound at all like I remember it!". Sound was super thick and warm and no dynamics. Changed AC cable and plugged it directly in the wall with great effect.
Well, that raises the chance of it being a defective unit. Dedicated power circuit + ground.. I think the wall socket was a set of acoustic revive. We tried a couple of cable setups but cables can only do so much =|.
My friend felt bad and didn't post a review on the Chinese forums, not that Kingwa cares. He mainly markets outside of China (smart move tbh).
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
The M9 sounds clearer and does not have that "smoky layer" to the sound. On the other hand, the Rag has better texture rendition and focus. Provided the texture is actually part of the recording (and not an added flavor), then both could be some traits of transparency.
Kingwa mention on his TOTL product's webpage - and this has been my experience, too - that they are somewhat sensitive to power cable (or power quality in general). I can confirm for both the M7 and M9, they sound lifeless with the wrong AC cable.
When I first got the M7 I said "WTF, doesn't sound at all like I remember it!". Sound was super thick and warm and no dynamics. Changed AC cable and plugged it directly in the wall with great effect.
Your Rag has a smoky layer?? I haven't heard that yet except with DACs that have it.
Greed, is your Rag smoky?
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(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6571012/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6571014/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
It's Time to test if you , pirates , tell BS or not about those Little Modi/Vali :)p3
:)p13
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Compare the Sonnet to the Vali using the same DAC.
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Your Rag has a smoky layer?? I haven't heard that yet except with DACs that have it.
Greed, is your Rag smoky?
I think I know what he means. Hard to explain. I think part of it is the Master (don't forget #) has a cooler presentation and Rag seems to have a lower mid emphasis. It's related to the smooth sound too.
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Compare the Sonnet to the Vali using the same DAC.
Yes of course ;) . I'm stupid but not that much :)
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Any portable(ish) recommendations? I prefer the pico power to the Leckerton UHA760 (ada4627-1brz) with the HD800. Should I be looking to something like the L3?
Herus has plenty of power, but I'm not sure I can recommend it without qualification. With the 800, it's a little bright in the upper mid/lower treble. If you're sensitive to that, you might find it fatiguing.
On the other hand, for me Nano iDSD with 800 is a little less crisp than I would like it. YMMV. For you, it might be the just-right bowl of porridge. At the price, and with a strong secondary market, I'd say it's worth a try.
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I was able to listen to the HD800 at a meet recently through a Glenn OTL, and the amount of low end slam was impressive and addictive. The impact was in a different league than the Val2 or the the Crack/Speedball. It wasn't mushy or gooey either, it sounded great for the price. The owner required listeners to adjust the volume through his DAC which struck me as a bit worrisome (channel imbalance low on the volume dial apparently). Still for the price, it might be worthy of consideration. I'm tempted to get one, but apparently there's a year long waiting list.
Glenn amps are completely customizable. The owner must have chosen a standard , cheap volume pot hence the channel imbalance. Mine has a a gold point stepped attenuator (no imbalance whatsoever). It also has a 5998 / 6AS7 switch , this is a switch that puts the optimum bias for a 5998 output (even though a 5998 will work in a 6AS7 amp it is not optimized as it has different bias points) .There is also an extra option available but I didn't go for that . Its a driver switch that would allow using either a 6SN7 or 12SN7 or 25SN7/1633/13D1 for the driver.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
Hmm.. we did a comparison of the Master 9 right after it came out... flat dynamics, veiled sound... It got slammed by a BHA-1 (which I do not consider a great amp).
Maybe we got a defective unit?
Possibly, were you using it balanced? I can understand the veiled sound to an extent but I thought the dynamics were above average for sure.
So is the Master 9 veiled or transparent? Because there is no way the Ragnarok is veiled and I have not heard anything SS that is more transparent.
The M9 sounds clearer and does not have that "smoky layer" to the sound. On the other hand, the Rag has better texture rendition and focus. Provided the texture is actually part of the recording (and not an added flavor), then both could be some traits of transparency.
Kingwa mention on his TOTL product's webpage - and this has been my experience, too - that they are somewhat sensitive to power cable (or power quality in general). I can confirm for both the M7 and M9, they sound lifeless with the wrong AC cable.
When I first got the M7 I said "WTF, doesn't sound at all like I remember it!". Sound was super thick and warm and no dynamics. Changed AC cable and plugged it directly in the wall with great effect.
Your Rag has a smoky layer?? I haven't heard that yet except with DACs that have it.
Greed, is your Rag smoky?
Haven't received mine yet, so no comment.
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Compare the Sonnet to the Vali using the same DAC.
Yes of course ;) . I'm stupid but not that much :)
Sorry, I just knew you were French so made assumptions. :)) ;)
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For portable, you could try the Portaphile too. Caveats are poor runtime, requires decent amount of warmup for the signature to balance out. I'd say it got closer to the Lisa w/o a PS but still not a L3+PSU.
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Glenn amps are completely customizable. The owner must have chosen a standard , cheap volume pot hence the channel imbalance. Mine has a a gold point stepped attenuator (no imbalance whatsoever). It also has a 5998 / 6AS7 switch , this is a switch that puts the optimum bias for a 5998 output (even though a 5998 will work in a 6AS7 amp it is not optimized as it has different bias points) .There is also an extra option available but I didn't go for that . Its a driver switch that would allow using either a 6SN7 or 12SN7 or 25SN7/1633/13D1 for the driver.
That's great to know, thanks! I knew there was some level of customization available, but I wasn't sure to what extent. I think I'll try and contact Glenn then. I don't know what you ended up paying for yours (I'm sure options come in to play...not sure what else is offered), but I seem to recall the owner of the amp I demo'd as saying he paid $650, which struck me as an excellent price to sound ratio. I have no idea how it compares to the big boy tube amps, so it might be a good candidate for the loaner program if I can get my hands on one. Time to get on the waiting list I suppose...
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(http://www.head-fi.org/image/id/6571014/width/900/height/900/flags/LL)
It's Time to test if you , pirates , tell BS or not about those Little Modi/Vali :)p3
:)p13
Mon ami, just use that little black box on the bottom right s'il vous plaît popcorn
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I'm not a huge fan of Modi, but Vali is ridiculously good with HD 800. You can easily spend 10X the price and be less happy.
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My current favorites are the B/H Crack with Speedball and the Vali....Both off the Gungnir...
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Compare the Sonnet to the Vali using the same DAC.
Yes of course ;) . I'm stupid but not that much :)
Sorry, I just knew you were French so made assumptions. :)) ;)
AH AH AH AH .. you're right. We french are not so trustable. :))
@Xaval : I spent all my last evenings with the Caiman/Sonett combo.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/4a/900x900px-LL-4a29c8a7_Mess1.jpeg)
The Modi/vali sounds good but no as good for sure . I'm french so you must takes what I say with a big grain of salt ( Anax : :)p8 ) but the Vali/modi sounds less refined, precise and articulate. Modi/vali provides a something more "raw" This is the word I have in mind. Modi/Vali seems to provide tons of slam and fun though . very enjoyable. Hope these very first impressions make sense.
I had a Vali a few month ago and did'nt appreciate it so much ( except with the NFB12.1 as dac ) . bad ringing and overally too harsh for my tastes. the one I receved yesterday had far less ringings and it seem I enjoy it more associated with the Modi. Maybe it's placebo or a change in the way I hear things. Dunno
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Purr1n, I think you stated previously that you preferred the Mjolnir to the BHA-1. Is it not on here because these are amps regardless of Anax Mod or has the Mjolnir just been replaced by the Rag?
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@Sorrodje
Did you get a chance to try the Vali out of the Caiman? You know, you aren't going to get 100% out of the Modi without the Wyrd, apparently. ;)
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@Sorrodje
Did you get a chance to try the Vali out of the Caiman?
Not yet But I'll do.
Wyrd.. Dunno I will purchase one or not. I've no problem with USB in my setup. I use USB ports from a docking station or the powered hub of my DELL screen so I think they provide enough juice. no hiss, pops or noise either. Usually , i have my USB>SPDIF transport and I use coax or optical inputs on my dacs... no real need of wyrd I think.
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I'd second the master 9. I hated their cheap amps but the master series acss stuffs are the real game changer here. Heard one recently side by side with my zana feed from master 7 and nad m51, the agd is better in all but the mid(use zana as pre and now you're talking business). Probably the best amp we oz can get for a sane price.
I used to be of the opinion that HD 800 sounds good only with tube amps but the M9 changed that.
Really appreciate the effort marvey. As Morgan Freeman says in Lucy "If you're asking me what to do with all this knowledge you're accumulating, I say, pass it on … just like any simple cell, going through time".
Thank You for passing it on.
Is it possible to list the amps in order of sound quality (of course IMO, YMMV & all that) ?
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Is it possible to list the amps in order of sound quality (of course IMO, YMMV & all that) ?
Trying to get one of the Master series amps to evaluate.
Not possible to list in order of sound quality because too difficult. Each amps does bring something different to do the table. This is why I've included short blurbs (my own thoughts and bouncing ideas off of other people who have owned or heard) on their qualities / synergies with HD800. I'd say that in very general terms, sound quality does increase as you get higher up in the price chain. This is because I have intentionally left off equipment that I thought was good, but I considered a poor value.
P.S. Also, gear that sounds gimped in "base" form and requires some sort of "upgrade" tends to piss me off. I'm fine with upgrades, but gear should at least be a good performer in base form. That kind of stuff is manufacturers playing games with consumers. This stuff isn't cheap. I mean even GM has figured that out with the V6 base Camaro's still having well over 300 hp.
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I generally don't like people asking "why isn't XXX on the list?" but I have to say, why isn't the ecp L-2 on the list when the DHSA-1 is? TBH I haven't heard the Teton or 445 yet, but the L-2 is undoubtedly the best headphone amp I've ever heard with the HD800. It trumps every other amp that I thought were great with HD800, including EC ZDSE, Dr. Cavalli's LG, HDVD800, Bakoon, et cetera and then some.
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I generally don't like people asking "why isn't XXX on the list?" but I have to say, why isn't the ecp L-2 on the list when the DHSA-1 is? TBH I haven't heard the Teton or 445 yet, but the L-2 is undoubtedly the best headphone amp I've ever heard with the HD800. It trumps every other amp that I thought were great with HD800, including EC ZDSE, Dr. Cavalli's LG, HDVD800, Bakoon, et cetera and then some.
The problem with both the L-2 and DSHA-1 is that they were both limited runs and are basically unobtanium unless you find someone willing to part with theirs. I have no doubt they sound amazing, just kinda out of reach for most people, and not just from a monetary stand point.
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I generally don't like people asking "why isn't XXX on the list?" but I have to say, why isn't the ecp L-2 on the list when the DHSA-1 is? TBH I haven't heard the Teton or 445 yet, but the L-2 is undoubtedly the best headphone amp I've ever heard with the HD800. It trumps every other amp that I thought were great with HD800, including EC ZDSE, Dr. Cavalli's LG, HDVD800, Bakoon, et cetera and then some.
Very simple. I haven't heard the L-2 and don't know enough people who have to bounce any impressions off of it.
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Marv, if you had to choose between Ragnarok and Stratus for the HD800 (and I mean HD800 only, no other headphones or speakers), which one would you take?
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To be honest, I am not that kind of people who can describe the sound very accurately. So I cannot give any useful comment here just some personal impression.
I think I am the one of the only two that have both 445 and Teton at the moment. I would say after you invest on the tubes, the cost of both are similar. For 445, you usually have to invest 600-1300usd on quad 45 tubes depends on your choice, and 200-300usd on WE417A. For Teton, previously I thought I need lots of fuking crazy NOS tubes on Teton to make it sing, but after I tried all those famous 5U4, 6SN7, 6080 tubes, I am so fuking frustrating. They do not make any huge difference. Maybe it is the problem with my ear, lol. So the cost of tube investment on Teton is around 200usd-????usd depends on how crazy you are. Please do not laugh at me, I invested more than 2000usd on those fuking NOS tubes like U52, WE422A, WE421A, GEC 6AS7G, etc.
I received Teton first ant then 445, I would say those two amps are quite similar to my ears. Just I am the guy that prefer the front presentation(not necessarily lean or harsh) so Teton makes me like HD800 even more. I would say 445 is a fuking versatile and neutral amp, it works great with almost every headphone except HE6. For Teton, I was using WE421A at first, I tried my LCD-3F on my Teton, I was shocked, they worked together like crap. I thought LCD-3F has enough impedance to use on WE421A, but I was wrong. I was so confused about innerfidelity Skylab's review. He only used LCD-3(F?) on Teton, and Tung Sol 2399. But Tung-sol 2399 is equivalent to WE421A if I was not wrong. But this combo is really awful because of the high output impedance on Tung Sol 2399. I also tried Grado and other low-z headphones with Teton and WE421A, but they do not work well either. I then used Raytheon 6528 on the power tube, man, something magic happened, with 6528, Teton is a fuking remarkable amp with low-z headphones even Grado. And the more ridiculous thing is that, 6528 only costs 40usd, but my WE421A costs around 400usd.....I am fuked.
I do not want to talk about 445 in details since lots of people have already talked a lot about this great amp. I would say either one is great match with HD800 and absolutely not fatiguing. They might sound less warm than your current amp with HD800, but I think HI-FI should be more about reproduction of the music not coloration. I do not care about whether an amp is listenable or not, I just want to hear what the music is truly alike. Both amps are fairly neutral especially 445.
I also tried my ECP Black Diamond on Lampi B7, holy schiit, it works so well with HD800. I love the combo, very enjoyable and enough for any casual listening. Just cannot justify myself having so many amps at the moment.
Forgot to say, I tried both amp on my Lampi B7, which is supposed to be a smooth analog sounding DAC.
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Marv, if you had to choose between Ragnarok and Stratus for the HD800 (and I mean HD800 only, no other headphones or speakers), which one would you take?
Probably Stratus with EML Mesh 2A3 or Psvane WE275 tubes for a more controlled SS sound with vintage tube rich harmonics. No mods with HD800 on this one. Make sure Stratus is the latest version with tweaks. Avoid SABRE.
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P.S. Also, gear that sounds gimped in "base" form and requires some sort of "upgrade" tends to piss me off. I'm fine with upgrades, but gear should at least be a good performer in base form. That kind of stuff is manufacturers playing games with consumers. This stuff isn't cheap. I mean even GM has figured that out with the V6 base Camaro's still having well over 300 hp.
Agreed but sometimes inorder to keep costs & the point of entry low some mfg's use run of the mill parts for some really good products. Case in point - The Btlhd Crack has a known channel imbalance issue at low volumes with its standard volume pot thus prompting many of its users towards a pot upgrade (please refer the 100's of posts on this on the BHC thread on Head-fi). I have personally experienced this when I had the Crack, I had to adjust the volume on my DAC to avoid this issue. But for me that is not a negative point for such a great value product, you always have the option to upgrade & the product in its stock form does sound great.
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I can live with screwy pots with something like the Crack. 75% of cheap pots are screwy in the low volume ranges unless you want to test and throw away the bad ones. This is nothing new. It's DIY. People need to stop bitching about stuff like this.
Crack is still pretty darn good in base form with provided caps and no speedball. And it's cheap. Upgrades on Crack make it sound from good to pretty darn good.
What I'm referring to is some random amp, or USB converter, or whatever that costs $800-$1000 and it sounds like a piece of shit, and then somebody tells me six months later, oh - that gear needs the uber power supply upgrade for $500 to sound good. And I'm like fuck you. I'm not bothering to go back to reassess it with the upgrade.
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Ah.. you are talking about products that sound like POS to begin with. Clear now.
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To be honest, I am not that kind of people who can describe the sound very accurately. So I cannot give any useful comment here just some personal impression.
I think I am the one of the only two that have both 445 and Teton at the moment. I would say after you invest on the tubes, the cost of both are similar. For 445, you usually have to invest 600-1300usd on quad 45 tubes depends on your choice, and 200-300usd on WE417A. For Teton, previously I thought I need lots of fuking crazy NOS tubes on Teton to make it sing, but after I tried all those famous 5U4, 6SN7, 6080 tubes, I am so fuking frustrating. They do not make any huge difference. Maybe it is the problem with my ear, lol. So the cost of tube investment on Teton is around 200usd-????usd depends on how crazy you are. Please do not laugh at me, I invested more than 2000usd on those fuking NOS tubes like U52, WE422A, WE421A, GEC 6AS7G, etc.
I received Teton first ant then 445, I would say those two amps are quite similar to my ears. Just I am the guy that prefer the front presentation(not necessarily lean or harsh) so Teton makes me like HD800 even more. I would say 445 is a fuking versatile and neutral amp, it works great with almost every headphone except HE6. For Teton, I was using WE421A at first, I tried my LCD-3F on my Teton, I was shocked, they worked together like crap. I thought LCD-3F has enough impedance to use on WE421A, but I was wrong. I was so confused about innerfidelity Skylab's review. He only used LCD-3(F?) on Teton, and Tung Sol 2399. But Tung-sol 2399 is equivalent to WE421A if I was not wrong. But this combo is really awful because of the high output impedance on Tung Sol 2399. I also tried Grado and other low-z headphones with Teton and WE421A, but they do not work well either. I then used Raytheon 6528 on the power tube, man, something magic happened, with 6528, Teton is a fuking remarkable amp with low-z headphones even Grado. And the more ridiculous thing is that, 6528 only costs 40usd, but my WE421A costs around 400usd.....I am fuked.
I do not want to talk about 445 in details since lots of people have already talked a lot about this great amp. I would say either one is great match with HD800 and absolutely not fatiguing. They might sound less warm than your current amp with HD800, but I think HI-FI should be more about reproduction of the music not coloration. I do not care about whether an amp is listenable or not, I just want to hear what the music is truly alike. Both amps are fairly neutral especially 445.
I also tried my ECP Black Diamond on Lampi B7, holy schiit, it works so well with HD800. I love the combo, very enjoyable and enough for any casual listening. Just cannot justify myself having so many amps at the moment.
Forgot to say, I tried both amp on my Lampi B7, which is supposed to be a smooth analog sounding DAC.
Thx for the impressions. This should serve as public notice to those interested in tube amps and those who read reviews of tube amps. You really have to know what you are listening to and what the reviewer is listening to. Without experimentation or experience, a tube amp's circuit can not be judged in a vacuum like a SS amp. People make judgments about tube amps all the time when they are just judging the current tube selection and its state of degradation or even their own upstream gear for the first time. Like the guy who used a PWT transport with his 445. Please...
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BTW, Marv, you can ask Todd to lend you his Teton, it is available for loan program right now from TTVJ
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Not sure I'd want to pay shipping on a big heavy $5000 item just for a short demo.
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BTW, Marv, you can ask Todd to lend you his Teton, it is available for loan program right now from TTVJ
One of the Pyrates is working on this. Thanks for your impressions. I can certainly see the synergy between HD800 and Teton.
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To be honest, I am not that kind of people who can describe the sound very accurately. So I cannot give any useful comment here just some personal impression.
I think I am the one of the only two that have both 445 and Teton at the moment. I would say after you invest on the tubes, the cost of both are similar. For 445, you usually have to invest 600-1300usd on quad 45 tubes depends on your choice, and 200-300usd on WE417A. For Teton, previously I thought I need lots of fuking crazy NOS tubes on Teton to make it sing, but after I tried all those famous 5U4, 6SN7, 6080 tubes, I am so fuking frustrating. They do not make any huge difference. Maybe it is the problem with my ear, lol. So the cost of tube investment on Teton is around 200usd-????usd depends on how crazy you are. Please do not laugh at me, I invested more than 2000usd on those fuking NOS tubes like U52, WE422A, WE421A, GEC 6AS7G, etc.
I received Teton first ant then 445, I would say those two amps are quite similar to my ears. Just I am the guy that prefer the front presentation(not necessarily lean or harsh) so Teton makes me like HD800 even more. I would say 445 is a fuking versatile and neutral amp, it works great with almost every headphone except HE6. For Teton, I was using WE421A at first, I tried my LCD-3F on my Teton, I was shocked, they worked together like crap. I thought LCD-3F has enough impedance to use on WE421A, but I was wrong. I was so confused about innerfidelity Skylab's review. He only used LCD-3(F?) on Teton, and Tung Sol 2399. But Tung-sol 2399 is equivalent to WE421A if I was not wrong. But this combo is really awful because of the high output impedance on Tung Sol 2399. I also tried Grado and other low-z headphones with Teton and WE421A, but they do not work well either. I then used Raytheon 6528 on the power tube, man, something magic happened, with 6528, Teton is a fuking remarkable amp with low-z headphones even Grado. And the more ridiculous thing is that, 6528 only costs 40usd, but my WE421A costs around 400usd.....I am fuked.
I do not want to talk about 445 in details since lots of people have already talked a lot about this great amp. I would say either one is great match with HD800 and absolutely not fatiguing. They might sound less warm than your current amp with HD800, but I think HI-FI should be more about reproduction of the music not coloration. I do not care about whether an amp is listenable or not, I just want to hear what the music is truly alike. Both amps are fairly neutral especially 445.
I also tried my ECP Black Diamond on Lampi B7, holy schiit, it works so well with HD800. I love the combo, very enjoyable and enough for any casual listening. Just cannot justify myself having so many amps at the moment.
Forgot to say, I tried both amp on my Lampi B7, which is supposed to be a smooth analog sounding DAC.
Hi chengka,
I am seriously contemplating getting the Apex Teton as the HD800 is my only headphone (at the moment anyway).
Would you be able to share which tubes in the Teton, in particular the rectifier and output tube, pairs better with the HD800? I'm worried about spending a fortune getting the 'wrong' tubes e.g. WE421A.
I'm looking for a tonal rich sound with good speed. Staging is less important to me since I find that I very much prefer speakers for that.
Thanks!
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BTW, Marv, you can ask Todd to lend you his Teton, it is available for loan program right now from TTVJ
One of the Pyrates is working on this. Thanks for your impressions. I can certainly see the synergy between HD800 and Teton.
Hi marvey,
Based on your experience, which amp would you recommend for an unmodded HD800: Teton, Stratus or ECBA / EC 445? Tonal richness, density, transparency and good pace are important to me.
I'm forced to make a blind purchase and am trying to avoid a fortune in shipping charges, not to mention taking a hit on reselling, if I don't like the amp.
Thanks!
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Hard to say because the amps all have their own flavor and I don't know of your preferences. What are you currently using. What is your setup? What would you like better from your existing setup? What bugs you?
I have a love / hate thing with the HD800... but there it goes:
Since stage isn't important, you want to run unmodded HD800, and you prefer more dense tone, I would eliminate 4-45. It is the most "solid-state" tube amp in the lineup.
This now leaves you with BA, Stratus, and Teton. Now the BA can be made with 300B or 2A3 version which opens up a lot of doors for tuning the sound. There are also a ton of 2A3 types, including some very good new production tubes. And as Chengka said above, also lots of great cheap tubes for Teton. BA will probably be most solid-state sounding of these three with the best pace. The others are more tubey. The Teton is OTL with more distinct coloration with HD800 (more bassier / punch) because of high output impedance of 50ohms. One of the guys here is getting a Teton in, so maybe wait until we can get a more direct comparison?
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Hard to say because the amps all have their own flavor and I don't know of your preferences. What are you currently using. What is your setup? What would you like better from your existing setup? What bugs you?
I have a love / hate thing with the HD800... but there it goes:
Since stage isn't important, you want to run unmodded HD800, and you prefer more dense tone, I would eliminate 4-45. It is the most "solid-state" tube amp in the lineup.
This now leaves you with BA, Stratus, and Teton. Now the BA can be made with 300B or 2A3 version which opens up a lot of doors for tuning the sound. There are also a ton of 2A3 types, including some very good new production tubes. And as Chengka said above, also lots of great cheap tubes for Teton. BA will probably be most solid-state sounding of these three with the best pace. The others are more tubey. The Teton is OTL with more distinct coloration with HD800 (more bassier / punch) because of high output impedance of 50ohms. One of the guys here is getting a Teton in, so maybe wait until we can get a more direct comparison?
I'm planning to use as source a notebook running JRiver/Jplay into the ART Legato II USB-SPDIF interface and a Lenehan Audio PDX Level 2 DAC (BB1704 R2R chip with 6922 tube output). This is my old leftover gear from my speaker set up. Planning to use my headphone setup in my office.
I was previously using a portable Centrance dac/amp. It's ok sounding, but I've heard through some auditions how much better my HD800 can sound with good amplification (e.g. Ear HP4). Makes my Centrance sound flat and boring in comparison, not to mention irritating vocal sibilance. I've also heard the Woo WA5 with stock tubes (clear mids, but generally not refined, could be the stock tubes, anyway I figured tube rolling for the WA5 is going to be painfully expensive), as well as the Pathos Aurium (smooth and pleasant I suppose, but doesn't grab me, kind boring).
I hope for a setup that delivers strong tonality and presence. I want details, but without giving me migraine from sibilance and etched sound. Good bass will be nice since that's something that the HD800 could always benefit from. I'm also looking at tubes primarily so that I can adjust the sound to better suit my other components since I can never fully predict how an amp will sound in my chain until I hear it in person.
The most 'impressive' head amp I've heard in person is the Ear HP4. It was really smooth and lush sounding, yet with good detail, weighty bass. It was the first amp that showed me what the HD800 can do if amped well, and convinced me to stick with them. But I've read that its sound seems heavily coloured by its output transformers or its circuit, so tube rolling may not have much impact on its sound. It's also got a small casing which means very few tubes actually fit inside it. Wanted a bit more flexibility (in terms of sound tuning) from the amp so I'm looking at other alternatives.
The Teton was high on my list as some feedback suggests that its sound changes the most radically through tube rolling, compared to other amps. Cheaper tube rolling is a good plus.
I also wonder a lot about the Stratus since feedback suggests it delivers the sound signature that I like (Donald seems to emphasise presence and tone texture, and he seems like a really nice guy to boot).
On the other hand, I've also heard how some described its bass as being slightly muddy, and may not suit a tube source as much as others. Also, rolling matched pairs of good 2A3s can get pretty expensive real fast. Hence, my dilemma...
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Narrowing it down to Teton or Stratus. I think you are heading the right direction for your preferences an would be pleased with either one.
I found the latest iteration of the Stratus much better in terms of bass, especially with the EML Meshes and a solid-state DAC. (Donald uses the tubed SFCD-1 at shows.) The Psvane WE275 ($400/pr) might have tighter bass too. But those two tubes are dryer sounding (we haven't even covered old stock 2A3s yet). Either way, I don't think the bass quality is going to any worse (assuming proper setup) than an OTL amp with ~50ohm output impedance.
Donald's amp is warm, has presence and good natural tone, and slightly rolled, but it also has plenty of bite and excitement when called for. I've used the word "intimate" and I think others who own the amp wouldn't disagree.
It's going to be at least a month before we get our grubby hands on the Teton to tell you for sure. We have some idea how it sounds, but don't want to say based on a short impression.
Did you prefer the EAR HP4 with the high output impedance or low output impedance jack?
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dense tone? Would I be crazy to recommend the 2A3 MKIV in this case?
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excellent good candidate but no longer available unless used. Craig is only building 4-45 right now.
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You just elicited so much personal regret in me right now for selling my baby :)
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Purr1n, I think you stated previously that you preferred the Mjolnir to the BHA-1. Is it not on here because these are amps regardless of Anax Mod or has the Mjolnir just been replaced by the Rag?
Mjolnir was a value proposition and I never ran the HD800 with it. I used it as a speaker amp. :-)
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Did you prefer the EAR HP4 with the high output impedance or low output impedance jack?
I recall preferring the high output impedance jack on the EAR.
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Did you prefer the EAR HP4 with the high output impedance or low output impedance jack?
I recall preferring the high output impedance jack on the EAR.
The Teton calls out to you.
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Did you prefer the EAR HP4 with the high output impedance or low output impedance jack?
I recall preferring the high output impedance jack on the EAR.
The Teton calls out to you.
Thanks!
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Hi guys,
I'm intrigued with Schiit Vali. Currently I have a 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880 and I was wondering if it pairs well? Since HD800 is harder to drive than Beyer DT880 250, I have no doubts that it can easily power the latter. I'm more concerned about the 'synergy' between the two.
Also can we generalize Schiit Vali as a good all around tube amp for the price? Going forward I am looking on acquiring some planar magnetic headphones and I was wondering if this one can drive them too.
Thanks in advanced. :)
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Hi guys,
I'm intrigued with Schiit Vali. Currently I have a 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880 and I was wondering if it pairs well? Since HD800 is harder to drive than Beyer DT880 250, I have no doubts that it can easily power the latter. I'm more concerned about the 'synergy' between the two.
Also can we generalize Schiit Vali as a good all around tube amp for the price? Going forward I am looking on acquiring some planar magnetic headphones and I was wondering if this one can drive them too.
Thanks in advanced. :)
Pretty sure the HD800 is more sensitive than the DT880 - it's just pickier with amp synergy.
I enjoy my DT880-600 with the Vali, I did not enjoy my HD800 with the Vali.
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I'm intrigued with Schiit Vali. Currently I have a 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880 and I was wondering if it pairs well?
Vali works great with DT880/250. Valhalla 2 if you want to step up.
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Assuming these three headphone amps are driven by the best amp you've ever heard, in which order would you rank them overall (based on your preference)?
1. SR-009 (perhaps by a BHSE)
2. Abyss (perhaps by a Rangarok)
2. HD800 (perhaps by a 445 or Teton)
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Lets stay on topic guys. HD800s and amps for them.
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Assuming these three headphone amps are driven by the best amp you've ever heard, in which order would you rank them overall (based on your preference)?
1. SR-009 (perhaps by a BHSE)
2. Abyss (perhaps by a Rangarok)
2. HD800 (perhaps by a 445 or Teton)
I just want to say.. this question reeks of HF-dom. Do some research and stop looking for the "easy way out". If you haven't already figured it out, there are a ton of good headphones, amps, DACs, etc. 9/10.. it will come down to personal preference and synergy. Nothing higher-end is terrible, just like nothing higher-end is THE BEST.
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We all know you hate the chocolate Marv-but what are your top say, 22 flavors @ Baskin Robbins? Inquiring sheep wanna know.
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I enjoy my DT880-600 with the Vali, I did not enjoy my HD800 with the Vali.
What didn't you like about the match up?
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Hi guys,
I'm intrigued with Schiit Vali. Currently I have a 250 ohm Beyerdynamic DT880 and I was wondering if it pairs well? Since HD800 is harder to drive than Beyer DT880 250, I have no doubts that it can easily power the latter. I'm more concerned about the 'synergy' between the two.
Also can we generalize Schiit Vali as a good all around tube amp for the price? Going forward I am looking on acquiring some planar magnetic headphones and I was wondering if this one can drive them too.
Thanks in advanced. :)
I didn't listen to the pairing often, but Vali + 880 (250 ohms) was a more than decent match up. Vali performs better when given some time to warm up too, so if you ever get a chance to try it out, don't rush the audition.
I've since sold my Vali because I wanted more power into a planar. Vali + HE-560 sounded "fine"; Asgard + HE-560 now sounds good to me.
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Vali performs better when given some time to warm up too, so if you ever get a chance to try it out, don't rush the audition.
Right. Let it run for 20 minutes before listening.
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We all know you hate the chocolate Marv-but what are your top say, 22 flavors @ Baskin Robbins? Inquiring sheep wanna know.
#1 HD800 driven by custom EC amp 2A3 x2 paralleled, WE417 drivers. Custom interstage and output transformers.
#1 Abyss from Ragnarok.
#1 SR-009 from Frank Cooter SE tube amp with mercury vapor glowie rectifier tubes.
Note they are all ranked the same.
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I enjoy my DT880-600 with the Vali, I did not enjoy my HD800 with the Vali.
What didn't you like about the match up?
There was a low-level hiss with my HD800s that I couldn't ignore. I posted about it when I bought the Vali, along with really loud tube harmonics. Schiit was gracious enough to send me a new one in exchange, and the harmonics were greatly reduced, but the hiss did not change.
I usually listen to music in the low 80db range, so maybe that's an issue.
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I enjoy my DT880-600 with the Vali, I did not enjoy my HD800 with the Vali.
Ah hiss. Makes sense.
What didn't you like about the match up?
There was a low-level hiss with my HD800s that I couldn't ignore. I posted about it when I bought the Vali, along with really loud tube harmonics. Schiit was gracious enough to send me a new one in exchange, and the harmonics were greatly reduced, but the hiss did not change.
I usually listen to music in the low 80db range, so maybe that's an issue.
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WA5 fully upgraded with EML 300b Mesh was not as refined and smooth as the BA with EH 300B (no Cinemag driver). Also the BA was more fluid and in sense a bit more tubey.
2A3MKIV seems not as smooth but I didn't use it with the same DAC. However it has better bass articulation and more fleshed presentation.
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WA5 fully upgraded with EML 300b Mesh was not as refined and smooth as the BA with EH 300B (no Cinemag driver). Also the BA was more fluid and in sense a bit more tubey.
2A3MKIV seems not as smooth but I didn't use it with the same DAC. However it has better bass articulation and more fleshed presentation.
Where did you audition that 2A3MKIV? I do not believe that there is any 2A3MKIV in France. There are only 6 MKIV out there.
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He bought mine and it's in France now :)
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He bought mine and it's in France now :)
lol, you sold it?? I thought you would never sell it haha
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At totl level u really need to be comparing the same DACs for impressions to have any meaning.
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Yes I agree. BA was with Total DAC D1 tubes and 2A3 with Audio Note 2.1x. I have shitty Sovtek on the AN, I wait for replacements tubes.
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Would a EC Zana Deux (non SE) be a good upgrade for the HD800 if my baseline was just the Schiit Vali?
EDIT: fk, nevermind. Used one was snapped up in front of my eyes...
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The EC ZD (non SE) is a very obvious upgrade to the Vali. When I was in between headamps, I had a Vali. The jump to the ZD was enormous in terms of better fleshed out tones and micro/macro dynamics.
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Yes I agree. BA was with Total DAC D1 tubes and 2A3 with Audio Note 2.1x. I have shitty Sovtek on the AN, I wait for replacements tubes.
Apologies for the OT, but what's your opinion on the AN 2.1? I have a trade offer for an amp I no longer use. Thanks
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Any edge(s) of BHA1 which it can hold against Rag?
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It comes in black.
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And it is cheaper and smaller. Otherwise, no.
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I've taken the plunge - the Teton it is :)p15
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I'm in a bit of dilemma. I'm looking for a high-end solid state amp for the HD800 and I tried the GS-X 2, Gungnir, and Taurus MK2 and most of them just sound too cold and boring to me. I like the AMB Beta 22 but it's DIY so I want to avoid if it's possible.
Any advice is appreciated. :)
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Hoping to have my GS-X, Black Diamond, Ragnarok review done tonight. Just have a couple more sections to write.
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Hoping to have my GS-X, Black Diamond, Ragnarok review done tonight. Just have a couple more sections to write.
Sounds long....;P
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20k characters presently and I haven't begun yet today.
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Any edge(s) of BHA1 which it can hold against Rag?
No.
I'm in a bit of dilemma. I'm looking for a high-end solid state amp for the HD800 and I tried the GS-X 2, Gungnir, and Taurus MK2 and most of them just sound too cold and boring to me. I like the AMB Beta 22 but it's DIY so I want to avoid if it's possible.
Any advice is appreciated. :)
Regards,
Jeremiah
Get the Rag. Probably the least cold out of all of them except B22. Rag is mid-centric and smooth (and more capable than B22). If Rag is still too cold, wire up some small resistors in series.
I've taken the plunge - the Teton it is :)p15
Let us know how it turns out. Hopefully we didn't send you on the wrong track.
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Hoping to have my GS-X, Black Diamond, Ragnarok review done tonight. Just have a couple more sections to write.
Sounds long....;P
Fear not! It's a gripping read, even for those of us that don't have that budget. And, if I ever do, I'd be happy to accept the result as a recommendation
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20k characters presently and I haven't begun yet today.
For the love of pete! Nooooooooooooooooooo....too much work on my brain cells.
Naw, just kidding. I like your reviews and writing. Very well layed out and articulated. Just knowing me I rather have my mind on morning cartoons and spaghetti most of the time....mmmmm, spaghetti.
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I don't always agree with Marv but I am on board with this list.
WRT to the ECBA my experience was it was terrible with the HD800 until I really spent some time swapping the driver tube, I don't even remember what I ended up liking but once I found a good set it just clicked. I have also only ever tried mine with the KR PX4 and never tried balanced.
The Zana really is a perfect match IMO. Price if you can find one is reasonable, flexible with other headphones, cheap enough tube rolling options.
The Luxman P1/P1u I also had a lot of experience with. The amps strike a good middle ground between tubey lush and solid state/exacting. I liked the HD800 combo but I actually liked the Luxmen (sp?) even more with other headphones like the HD600, AD2000, and LCD-1 (in fact was amazingly good with the LCD-1).
The s7 was also definitely up there.
For me the pursuit of perfect hd800 sound did me in, I should have settled and been happy with what I had!!
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I recently got a Woo Audio 5 for cheap and was wondering what kind of tubes should I look for it to upgrade from stock. I am looking to upgrade all of it at the same time. My favorite headphone is the HD 800 and I will also be running speaker with the amp. I would said I like the sound to bring out the best of the HD800. Any suggestion?
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How far apart would you say the Sonnett 2 and the Stratus are? The more I read about the 2A3 tubes, the more tempting the Stratus is despite the higher price. I'm worried about getting the upgrade bug a week or so later, if I were to get the Sonnett... facepalm
I'm looking to take advantage of the soundstage and resolution of the HD800 (unmodded for now), while adding some tube magic and presence to the experience. Listening habits are roughly 1/3 female pop, 1/3 hard rock/metal and 1/3 soundtrack music/orchestral. Source/DAC is a Sony HAP-S1 (PCM1795).
I admit aesthetics play a role in looking at the DNA's vs the Eddie Current amps, as does the price. I'm assuming I'll be doing some tube rolling with whatever I choose.
Lastly, any thoughts on the WA6-SE for the HD800? I don't see a lot of Woo discussion on Changstar.
Thanks!
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I recently got a Woo Audio 5 for cheap and was wondering what kind of tubes should I look for it to upgrade from stock. I am looking to upgrade all of it at the same time. My favorite headphone is the HD 800 and I will also be running speaker with the amp. I would said I like the sound to bring out the best of the HD800. Any suggestion?
First thing I would start with is get 274B Mesh rectifiers. That's the basis where you should start. Otherwise the WA5 lacks balls and sounds kind of limp dickish. What tubes you got right now for driver and 300B?
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How far apart would you say the Sonnett 2 and the Stratus are? The more I read about the 2A3 tubes, the more tempting the Stratus is despite the higher price. I'm worried about getting the upgrade bug a week or so later, if I were to get the Sonnett... facepalm
I'm looking to take advantage of the soundstage and resolution of the HD800 (unmodded for now), while adding some tube magic and presence to the experience. Listening habits are roughly 1/3 female pop, 1/3 hard rock/metal and 1/3 soundtrack music/orchestral. Source/DAC is a Sony HAP-S1 (PCM1795).
I admit aesthetics play a role in looking at the DNA's vs the Eddie Current amps, as does the price. I'm assuming I'll be doing some tube rolling with whatever I choose.
Lastly, any thoughts on the WA6-SE for the HD800? I don't see a lot of Woo discussion on Changstar.
Thanks!
Hard to say, but personally I'd just go straight to Stratus 2A3. I think it's the better deal. Tons and tons of great 2A3 tubes. Keep in mind you will not be able to run a lot of orthos successfully.
Woo WA6-SE is nice. I think a few pyrates owned it years ago. WA5 is nice. But starts to get pricey after you add upgrades and options. The WA5 was the first tube amp what really showed me what the HD800 could do. That was years ago. Honestly, the WA5s I've heard at meets lately haven't really impressed me all that much. It could be the owners set them up to sound more warm, syrupy, etc. The rest of the Woo line, WA22, WA2, WA6 (non SE), WA3, WES, GES, etc. is unimpressive - IMO.
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The WA6-SE is a good amp and does fine with the HD-800. Grab the right tube combination and it's darned good. It also does well with a lot of other headphones, so for a guy with lots of cans it's a good choice.
That said, if I was trying the find the amp for the HD-800, the 6-SE would not be my choice.
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What's you current amp with the HD800 Shipsupt ?
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I'm a bit in between amps for the 800. I'm currently using a Monolith I built, but it's far from ideal for the 800. I've got a Mainline on the bench right now that I'm hoping turns out to be a nice fit for them.
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Thanks. Yeah, my main headphone is an HD800 that probably hasn't come close to its max potential, but I have about $500 worth of Cable Company credit I was thinking about using towards an HE-560 too. Might need to rethink that. They don't have any amps I'm interested in, outside of the Taurus (and I definitely want to go tubes). They have the Fosgate Signature amp, but it doesn't look very impressive and almost no information can be found on it.
The age of the Woo gear is what concerned me. The amps mentioned in this thread were mostly newer ones and (I assume) build more to accommodate the current headphone market. That said, I had just bought a used WA6-SE but didn't get to hear it because the power supply didn't work. Sad day. Was curious what I missed with it. Looked damn good in my rig for 2-3 days. :(
Sorry for OT, but still Stratus related, since orthos were mentioned...How would the Stratus play with the Mad/Alpha Dog and the HE-560?
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Mad / Alpha Dogs might do OK. T50RPs and their variants are inefficient, but seem to do fine with amps with modest power. HE-560 I did not like on Stratus or on any other tube amp - too soft - except the x4 EC amps.
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I am currently running the mullard gz32/cv 593. It was available for cheap so I thought I grab it as a quick upgrade. How is that tube compare to the 274b mesh? Are you referring to the 274bmesh Sophia or something else? Of the three type of tube in WA5 do you know which one affect the sound the most. I probably going to try to get that tube to sound as much to what I like then. Thank you for your time Purrin.
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No idea on the gz32. Have not heard. You see, this is why I hesitate to whole-heatedly recommend WA5. Unless you get it used at a great price. It's not a tube rollers dream. It's a tube rollers nightmare. And even then, you have to figure out if the boutique cap and parts updates are worth it too.
Rectifier will affect bass slam, tightness, etc. on the WA5. The WA5 without the big 274B (sophia or EML) have sounded bass lite, lacking dynamics, or wooley. That's the foundation. Your power supply.
The 6SN7 driver tubes tend to sound more alike than not, with some high-dollar unobtainable overpriced exceptions. 300B tubes are all over the place in terms of sound. So because of that, the 300B will affect the rest of the sound most. EH 300Bs are very underrated, cheap, and have a typical 300B bloomish sound. You may already have something better or different. Sylvania GTA/GTB 6SN7 is a good place to start - plentiful and cheap.
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I wouldn't worry about Mullard gz32. Its excellent, one of my favorite rectifiers. Its fast and dynamic has excellent balance, lots of plankton as well.
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When swapping rectifier tubes for unregulated PSU's it's not the rectifier that changes the sound, but rather the change of operating points of the whole amp. Can't say if I approve of such designs.
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^Operating point would change only when you use a different family of rectifier with significantly different voltage drops but differences can be heard even with swapping rectifiers of the same type.
Also,most designers would take tube swapping into account and choose an operating point where small changes won't affect the performance much.Although its probably still advisable to stick to the rectifier the amp was designed with.
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Part of it is also due to the dynamic response of the diode. In a single-ended design, current draw from the power supply is proportional to the signal. Unless the power supply is shunt regulated, this means that the diode is in the output current loop. As the triode swings, it draws varying amounts of current which is pulled from the power supply.
The datasheet for the GZ32 (http://www.r-type.org/exhib/aad0204.htm) shows the diode I/V curves for choke and capacitor input power supplies. In capacitor input supplies, the curves aren't purely ohmic- their impedance is load-dependant, and probably plays a part in why different rectifier diodes sound different.
Recovery characteristics probably differ a fair bit too, between different diodes, but I don't know enough to say how exactly.
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Can't say if I approve of such designs.
This
Also,most designers would take tube swapping into account and choose an operating point where small changes won't affect the performance much.
Saggy supplies are great for guitar amp but terrible for hifi. Designing around this issue is trivial.
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I am currently running the mullard gz32/cv 593. It was available for cheap so I thought I grab it as a quick upgrade. How is that tube compare to the 274b mesh? Are you referring to the 274bmesh Sophia or something else? Of the three type of tube in WA5 do you know which one affect the sound the most. I probably going to try to get that tube to sound as much to what I like then. Thank you for your time Purrin.
I think the rectifier and 300B improves the WA5 the most, but the driver choices are significant to system matching esp for brighter headphones such as the HD800 unmodded.
My favourite combination for the WA5 was GEC U52 (rectifier), AVVT AV32B (power) and Syvania 6SN7w metal base (more resolution, soundstage and speed) / Tungsol BGRP (fuller body, more intimate, better bass).
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Sorry for OT, but still Stratus related, since orthos were mentioned...How would the Stratus play with the Mad/Alpha Dog and the HE-560?
Continuing OT . . . Marv, which of the HD800 amps on the list drive planars right--if people want to try squaring the circle by using the same amp for HD800 and (say) Paradox / HE560? Your thoughts would be very helpful. Thanks.
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I'd appreciate you opinion too Marv since I will have planers and the HD-800 soon.
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Well, an easy very low-cost option would be the Schitt Vali.
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Ok
Tried some amps yesterday at our french meet. Very brief listens in non otimal conditions so these impressions are very questionnable.
- EC 445 : Space - immediate feeling of improved soundstage . More sparkle in the treble than my Sonett . Associated wit a Metrum Hex . listened very briefly unfortunately.. Marvey that's a 445 you've seen before ;)
(http://pix.toile-libre.org/upload/img/1417379554.jpg) (http://pix.toile-libre.org/?img=1417379554.jpg)
- Schitt Mjolnir : Not bad at all . i was afraid of harshness but that was surprisingly good to my ears. Love the bass Slam of the SS Amp . I miss it on all tube amps I've heard or owned. not much more to say . only few minutes spent with the amp.
- Headamp GSX-MK2 : Mother of god. p:8 GSX/HD800 combo is the pinnacle of Analytical listening I guess. Lot of Slam on all registers . Especially great bass. Piercing/sharp treble but no in a so bad way. great dynamics . the amp impressed me but I would never live with that. i would only listen to classical and even with Classical it's too much for my ears. very sharp sound. I spent more time with the headamp and my own music .
My Sonett offer the smoother and the more intimate listening experience with the HD800
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Sorrodje:
Your take on the mojo gives me some hope. I received the balanced HD 800 cable from massdrop on Saturday. I had shied away from the Mojo and the 800 combo purely on other people's reviews but that's not the Changstar way is it? Time to try this combo out.
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Forgot to talk about Meier amps. Those deserve more attention from hd800 owners. Especially the jazz.
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Forgot to talk about Meier amps. Those deserve more attention from hd800 owners. Especially the jazz. I'd pick the jazz.
What impressed you about the Jazz...and what DAC did you use?
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Nothing impressed me. I'm not so persuaded that impressive amps are our best friends for long time listening.
I owned the jazz several month ago so I was afraid to be disappointed. That's not the case and I could still live with the Meier corda jazz now. Both classic and jazz are transparent amps. No warmth. No harshness. Not sound of its own indeed. I really can't tell you if it's bright or warm.
Can't really say more from a short listening. We used the amps from my caiman mkII and the Meier daccord.
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Have been using the Liquid Glass for about 4 weeks now. IMO Pairs very well with HD 800, Quite smooth yet no treble roll-off, extended treble with a nice tone, good depth, layering & separation.This is the perfect marriage of SS & Tubes. The versatility of this amp is amazing, The ability to tune the sound by rolling 6SN7's is :-DD . Amongst the 6SN7's I have tried (haven't tried all so far, see my profile for my collection of 6SN7's) the following pair very well with HD 800:
Ken Rad 6SNTGT
Sylvania 6SN7W Short Bottle
B65 Metal Base
Mullard CV 181
TS BGRP 6SNTGT - This headbang
Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7GT (1952)
Fivre 6SN7GT
Brimar 6SN7GT
Having so much fun rolling
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I always thought that amp must be a tube-rolling, great HD800 amp. And you have an excellent bunch of tubes, sir!! :)p1
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Have been using the Liquid Glass for about 4 weeks now. IMO Pairs very well with HD 800, Quite smooth yet no treble roll-off, extended treble with a nice tone, good depth, layering & separation.This is the perfect marriage of SS & Tubes. The versatility of this amp is amazing, The ability to tune the sound by rolling 6SN7's is :-DD . Amongst the 6SN7's I have tried (haven't tried all so far, see my profile for my collection of 6SN7's) the following pair very well with HD 800:
Ken Rad 6SNTGT
Sylvania 6SN7W Short Bottle
B65 Metal Base
Mullard CV 181
TS BGRP 6SNTGT - This headbang
Sylvania Bad Boy 6SN7GT (1952)
Fivre 6SN7GT
Brimar 6SN7GT
Having so much fun rolling
Yep, one of my favorites. Congrats. TS BGRP is definitely great with the HD800.
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Hi Gents
ahoy
Has anyone in here tried either Auralic taurus or Hdvd800 with HD800?
I respect your opinions more than the hype from head-fi :vomit:
Im asking because i was stupid enough to sell My Hd800 with Questyle cma800r to purchased 009,
Well now i miss Them and are lookin to get HD800 or maybe LCD3.
Just not sure yet as i feel HD800 Can be to Bright, but thats what you get if you want does lovely details.
Audeze are not worth there asking Price, but i love the non fatiguing Sound, but afraid that its very lacking in details.
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Hi Gents
Im asking because i was stupid enough to sell My Hd800 with Questyle cma800r to purchased 009,
How come you dont fancy just sticking with the CMA800R, how did you find that? I personally have not found a preferable amp for my HD800s and stick with the Questyle. I have tried the HDVA600 and HDVD800 (just has a digital section added, maybe that bothers you?) and don't like them as much as the Questyle even if it was made by Sennheiser themselves, i have not tried the Auralic. As for HD800 vs LCD-3, only your ears can make up you mind on that!
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Mostly because I where Stax curious facepalm
Well even with Questyle I found HD800 bright eventhough it had nice puchy bass and smooth Top end,
I guess the amp didn't have much sound of it own, it just high level all the strength of HD800
I feel It would be silly to try the same amp and I'm curious to try something different, I would like all in one box like HDVD800 but on the other hand Auralic should be a power horse!!
I have a feeling HD800 is only great with valves, but I dispice them so Im avoiding that route.
Can you elaborate on the sound signature of HD800 + HDVD800 ?
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I haven't heard the Questyle myself, so i don't now how it compares. The HDVA (or HDVD) is one of the most natural sounding amps i have heard with HD800, but the list of amps i have tried is nothing to show off either. It is fairly neutral, gives the HD800 bass tone and some slam it lacks with entry level crap. Highs are less annoying as well. In short the HDVA600 is decent ss amp (more loved here than the Questyle), but i'm sure there are better ones around by now. I would try Schiit Rag. Look at the list at page one.
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Thanks for reply Priidik
I have looked at the list more than once and I have tried Schiit Mjolnir which was highly disappointing,
So Im not going the schiitty route again.
Maybe I should buy Auralic blind folded!
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How about SPL phonitor?
My friend really insist that i should try that with Hd800 actually.
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How about SPL phonitor?
My friend really insist that i should try that with Hd800 actually.
Phonitor is OK, decent, not bad, good. In general, I prefer amps with 3 ohms to 20 ohms output Z for HD800s.
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How about SPL phonitor?
My friend really insist that i should try that with Hd800 actually.
Mediocre to average if you ask me. That's for the latest one which is a notable improvement, not the original which is even less so due to the low-fi grain and very digital signature. I would probably listen to an O2 over an original Phonitor myself and most know I'm not a fan of that thing.
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Mediocre to average if you ask me. That's for the latest one which is a notable improvement, not the original which is even less so due to the low-fi grain and very digital signature. I would probably listen to an O2 over an original Phonitor myself and most know I'm not a fan of that thing.
Woah , now i am curious to hear that combination (so i can compare it with some other amps in this list here)
Say, if i want Hd800 to be more forgiving as i got many recording with so-so mastering , which is the best choice in that regards?
I am currently eyeing Rag right now but still shopping around.
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Woah , now i am curious to hear that combination (so i can compare it with some other amps in this list here)
Say, if i want Hd800 to be more forgiving as i got many recording with so-so mastering , which is the best choice in that regards?
I am currently eyeing Rag right now but still shopping around.
Buy a different headphone if you want a performer that sounds good on everything :)
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Woah , now i am curious to hear that combination (so i can compare it with some other amps in this list here)
Say, if i want Hd800 to be more forgiving as i got many recording with so-so mastering , which is the best choice in that regards?
I am currently eyeing Rag right now but still shopping around.
Rag is a bit warm on the natural side of things but absolutely unforgiving. I could throw out a bunch of amps I feel are in that category but I don't like them much and am personally in the ruthlessly revealing camp so I'll let others chime in on that note.
Some other tricks people use that I don't are changing digital filters and upsampling if you are able to give those a shot.
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Buy a different headphone if you want a performer that sounds good on everything :)
That might be the best solution indeed. I really like this one on classical and acoustic but too bad that my genre variations probably too wide.
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That might be the best solution indeed. I really like this one on classical and acoustic but too bad that my genre variations probably too wide.
Probably not any wider than my genre bandwidth or most others. Is your issue with bad recordings or different genres? If you have bad classical recordings the HD800 will let you know too.
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Probably not any wider than my genre bandwidth or most others. Is your issue with bad recordings or different genres? If you have bad classical recordings the HD800 will let you know too.
Probably just bad recordings i think, sorry for not so clear choice of words.
I have a habit to order independently produced cd from various events (such as http://tokyoaudiowaffle06.tumblr.com ) and sometimes i ran into really bad one.
Still not really consider selling my hd800 as i think i should try to find proper amp for it and see the full potential first (still use my very old Cayin Ha-1A here) , so far this thread give me a really nice list that i'll be looking forward to demo!
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Since I have the Sonett, fortunately I find my HD800 more forgiving for my so-so recordings. I still here they're not good but I still can listen to them. Both with the Metrum ( feeded with 24/88,1 in order to avoid the NOS treble roll-off) and the Beresford Caïman ( a bit less analog sound but more resolving than the Metrum Octave)
Please consider I rarely listen to Rock/Metal & pop music though.
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genre variance is one of the strangest aspect about the HD800 to an outsider like myself. i've seen posts proclaiming they only sound good with certain genres and on well mastered records, but i've also seen others talk about how amazing they sound on stuff like kpop. without the ability to try it for myself, there's just so much dissonance regarding this headphone that makes it hard to rate it as a safe purchase
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IMO the HD600 associaited wit a good rig for it is a better choice for a blind "safe purchase". unfortunately I don't think the HD600 performs at the HD800 level in many area. You can have your cake and eat. You can't have ultimate perfomance and forgiveness for the flaws of your recordings. it's not really a matter of genre in my experience.
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Sorrodje:
What rig did you use with the HD 600?
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When I had the HD580 ( I didn't own the HD600) I had the Meier Corda Jazz and the HRT Microstreamer as DAC. It was in 2013 and I bought the HD800 a bit later so I didn't invest more time and money in the Rig. I remember well how I've been wowed when I discovered what the HD580 was capable of from the Meier Corda jazz vs my Previous Aune T1 DAC/AMP . :)p13 . It was a really big discovery in small audiophile career.
A few month later, I bought another HD580 and used it With my Old Antique Sound Labs MG Head and a REGA DAC. I even thought to sell the HD800 because of financial difficulties. I thought I could be happy enough with the HD580 and I wouldn't regret so much the 800 . I had even called a buyer so my HD800 was basically sold but I decided to give it a final listen... half an hour later I called the buyer to cancel the sale and the HD580 left the house for a friend. :)p8
A month ago, I thought I was ready to buy HD600 one more time. So I tried it during a meeting on my own HD800 rig but finally I didn't buy it. The gap is bigger now than what I remember... At least to my ears.
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It depends on a person's priorities, as much as any attempt to determine absolutely which headphone is superior in sound. When I had the HD650 (driven by a Zana) I believed it was the penultimate jazz rig. I had an HD800, HE6, PS1, LCD-2 and several other at the time, but still, the HD650 did for Wes Montgomery and Coltrane and Davis something the other headphones couldn't. There is just so much madness to this hobby, that A>B doesn't always complete the picture.
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genre variance is one of the strangest aspect about the HD800 to an outsider like myself. i've seen posts proclaiming they only sound good with certain genres and on well mastered records, but i've also seen others talk about how amazing they sound on stuff like kpop. without the ability to try it for myself, there's just so much dissonance regarding this headphone that makes it hard to rate it as a safe purchase
You have to be committed to finding a proper rig and upstream for the HD800. It is not conducive to random budget choices as it will let you know those were poor choices and you'll just get fed up, blame the headphone and sell them. Best way is to hear them driven well from good upstream gear first before deciding.
The whole HD800 genre specialty thing is a bunch of crap/BS. That goes back to those poor choices. If you can find our DAC-off spreadsheet/google doc you can get an idea of what music Marv and myself listen to and test with.
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[quote
The whole HD800 genre specialty thing is a bunch of crap/BS. That goes back to those poor choices. If you can find our DAC-off spreadsheet/google doc you can get an idea of what music Marv and myself listen to and test with.
[/quote]
About a month ago I was auditioning an MSB Analog (to see if it betters the Offramp (i2s) > Lampi 5) and even in that setup > BA > HD800, would take an AD2000 for nearly any variety of modern indie rock (Wolf Parade, Deerhunter, The National - that sort ot stuff) over the HD800. Much as I love the headphone I would not say it has farreaching genre capabilities. That may be only me, but no source on earth can make the HD800 a top performer for atrociously mastered rock.
Hell, I wish a single headphone could handle every genre with aplomb, but if does exist, I definitely haven't heard it.
*Caveat: I have a stock HD800
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[quote
The whole HD800 genre specialty thing is a bunch of crap/BS. That goes back to those poor choices. If you can find our DAC-off spreadsheet/google doc you can get an idea of what music Marv and myself listen to and test with.
About a month ago I was auditioning an MSB Analog (to see if it betters the Offramp (i2s) > Lampi 5) and even in that setup > BA > HD800, would take an AD2000 for nearly any variety of modern indie rock (Wolf Parade, Deerhunter, The National - that sort ot stuff) over the HD800. Much as I love the headphone I would not say it has farreaching genre capabilities. That may be only me, but no source on earth can make the HD800 a top performer for atrociously mastered rock.
Hell, I wish a single headphone could handle every genre with aplomb, but if does exist, I definitely haven't heard it.
*Caveat: I have a stock HD800
See, that sound crazy to me. I have no idea what your BA sounded like or what tubes were sued but the HD800's bass should rip the AD2000's face off with any music. I can't understand what the AD2000 would give you with rock or anything else tbh.
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I can definitely see the AD2000 being more engaging with poorly mastered material.
I'm not sure if I'll end up re-buying it even if to me it's one of the nicer A-T cans, because I do feel that the YH100 is more transparent and it also has the same 4khz ringing I believe, which helps on rock and dnb.
But if I end up getting a Zana Deux or an EC amp it would be hard not to pick up an AD2000 just to play with.
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dbl post
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Hey, a lot of people like the AD2000 on EC gear, Craig still has his. I just can't relate so feel free to ignore me on the matter.
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Hey, a lot of people like the AD2000 on EC gear, Craig still has his. I just can't relate so feel free to ignore me on the matter.
Understand this, I am not disputing your contention that the HD800 kicks the shit out of an AD2000, no matter the setup. I'm not fool enough to make barmy claims that an AD2000 is more capable, or has better bass, or treble, etc... My point is only that from a very subjective and personal vantage the AD2000 has a euphony; a mid-centric complexion, an accelerated bearing, that to this pair of ears works with a certain genre that I enjoy. Paired with my ZD I find it one of the uncanny pairings in headfi-dom (just as I did the HD650> Zana & to a smaller extent LCD-3>Dynahi).
Where the AD2000 reveals its demerits is precisely the same area where it excels. This headphone is capable only of going forward, speedily; a perpetual gallop, where the HD800 is one of the very few that can walk, trot, canter, gallop...wing off into duskiness even, if the recording so mandates. An AD2000, like so many of its contemporaries, would, like poor vain Icarus, melt and drop to the sea, leaving behind it a mist of melted plastic. There is no denying this, but for all its frailty, it sure can rock every now and again.
*My BA consists of Sophia E. 6sl7 and Solid EML 300B's, RK50 Potent. -- once belonged to Andy (blu)
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Hey, I like teh AD2000. The AD2000 is my last surviving John Grado headphone and I'm keeping it for when I'm in the mood for a John Grado.
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Hey, I like teh AD2000. The AD2000 is my last surviving John Grado headphone and I'm keeping it for when I'm in the mood for a John Grado.
Not sure of the exact meaning behind that, but the AD2000 is a rewarding John Grado experience, perhaps the first of its kind.
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AD2000 is like an John Grado grown up. The bassier amps do help, otherwise the AD2000 can sound thin. I like the AD2000 with the ZD.
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Yup, a grown up Grado. That was also my meaning.
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AD2000 + 2A3 MKIV = fucking wonderful.
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Hmm, I just bought a EC Super 7.
I hope that sounds good with an AD2000, I still plan on getting one, but that won't be for a little while.
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Heh the kind of discussion tangents I like in a thread about the HD800.
I love the ad2000 but it's the weirdest headphone I've ever had the pleasure of finding a good amp for. Out of 10 amps I've tried I would like maybe 1 or 2 with it; right now a Singlepower MPX3 sounds fantastic for me.
I cannot stand it with many amps that you'd figure would be perfect; just to give some examples the EC BA/ZD, ECP BD, GS-X/Dynalo. I believe amps with tubes have better potential. Would it make sense the main driver tube will have to be both fairly quiet and preferably lower gain to avoid a high noise floor with the ad2k? Sad I used to have a s7 and still the ad2k but cannot remember how I felt about it.
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Ricky, I now realize I never tried the CSP2+ with the AD2K. On paper I think it's an interesting match. Let us know how that works out.
Never did like the AD2K until I heard it with the ZD. Also never felt the need to use anything else following that discovery. Also prefer it to the BA, where it can be a little shouty.
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Ok, i'm pretty sure that the BA would be perfect for me, but with yggy its too much for me. Would you guys say that the rag is the best amp for under/less than 2000$???
I like: musicality, soundstage, eargasm, shiver, toe-tapping, etc.
I like: acoustic, classical, jazz, downtempo, old rock( pink floyd, supertramp…), latin…
I have everything in cd quality or better. Oh, and my hd800 are anax 2.0 (soon 3.0??) modded.
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Having heard the pre-production Yggy at zero's mini meet, I suggest you want to buy the Yggy first, and try it with the best amp you own, or try it with all the current amps you own. Then see what you want to do. If I could swing it right now, that's what I would do. I think it is the only DAC I've heard that changes the usual audio chain of importance.
DAC>Amp
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The EC Super 7 (with cap upgrades) is nice, it ticks all the right boxes.
The bass impact of the Ken-Rad VT-231 tubes in particular is amazing.
However I get the feeling that the AD2000 might be better on a more euphonic amp.
The tubes I have running atm are 1) Sylvania 6SN7WGT as the driver tube.
1
x x
2 3
4 5
2 & 3 are some Ken-Rad VT231's,
4 & 5 are some random Raytheon 6SN7WGT's
x are the stock tubes, Tung-Sol 6SN7GTB (a little bright, but pretty full spectrum)
Does it even get much better? I'm pretty darn impressed with the sound of this amp with the HD800's.
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I'll get yggy first for sure
Is the super 7 only used?? I cannot find it on the website of EC
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I don't think Craig makes them anymore. DW - stop while you are ahead!!
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Iam going to buy a new amp/dac for my HD800. What would be best Modi 2 Uber/Magni 2 Uber, Modi 2 Uber/Vali or Matrix M-stage HPA2 (with dac).
Thanks! :)
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I have been listening to an Apex Pinnacle for a week now. No, its not mine, i have it on loan from a friend.
DACs used: BMC PureDac. Briefly tried: April Stello DA100, Yulong DA8, Yulong D100.
Phones tried: HD800 (bal, driver ring covered), HD650 (briefly) and Beyer T1 (very briefly), also balanced RE400 *:p
Now i got the taste of tubes done right (previous encounters were Leben and WA22 retubed, all somewhat dissapointing) and i get the 'big boy toob amps' slam term now.
I am even surprised by the technicalities this amp has, it surpasses the HDVA600 in all aspects with the right driver tube in place. It is really dependant on that tube, with some lesser tubes, it gets spanked by the HDVA. 6F8 Sylvania is my favorite here. Vs HDVA600 Pinnacle (with 6F8 Sylvania) has:
More nimble bass, leading edges/transients are sharper (perhaps too sharp even, but i like it) ,more physical imaging, way better clarity, texture is better, treble has less artifacts and is cleaner etc.
Still, the HDVA is much better amp than WA22 or Leben, at least in technicalities.
Marvey said HDVA600 imparts its own signature. I get that part now, i think. It adresses 5-7k region a tad, by ditching information there, kind of coarsing it over. Also some stridency in 9kHz and up. Female vocals have less air and delicacy as a result, but HD800 trouble-zone (s) has less effect too. It works well with Sabre dacs for this reason.
Now i'm thinking how do i get a taste of that sound without robing a bank myself :)p8.
I have done my lurking and now i am very tempted to get a Rag, but not sure if it will meet its performance technically. I'd really like to get a way without tubes, if possible.
I know some of you have heard Pinnacle, where does the Pinnacle stand against its competition and Rag?
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Iam going to buy a new amp/dac for my HD800. What would be best Modi 2 Uber/Magni 2 Uber, Modi 2 Uber/Vali or Matrix M-stage HPA2 (with dac).
Thanks! :)
Provide some aditional information about your needs, otherwise the question is hopeless to answer to.
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Just heard the HD800 to with the La Figaro 339s and Audio GD 8/9 cant remember which,
Was not that impressive to be honest. Have not heard it make me go "DAYUM" like the first time ive heard these with the Goldmund headphone amp.
Other than the hot as hell highs, ive found it pretty ok, but nowhere near what people seem to be describing. I think its an amp problem, and the fact that mine is unmodded.
So quick question, how do the vahalla and vali compared to say the rag. Im thinking of one of these 3, if they are not too far off form the rag, ill settle for one of the first 2.
The BA and 445 are too far out for my budget unfortunately.
Thanks
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Do you think amps and dacs really make much difference with the hd800 or with any other headphone? From my experience the differences always have been very subtile and not worth the huge price tags. I used hd800 straight out of my macbook for some time and it wasn't really that bad (off course net best). I tried byston bha-1, bmc puredac, violectric v200, hdvd800, matrix m-stage, meier audio, ifi, dragonfly)
Before I pay that much for amps I would consider getting a complementary headphone or save my money.
Do you think I'm wrong or have just bad hearing? This is no offense, I just want to learn from your experience because this forum seems to be rather objective, so I wonder that you care so much about amps that should not do anything but amping the signal a bit.
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Absolutely not. Neither does the specific headphone. Just stick with whatever you can cram onto your head, plug it into whatever you have, and go forth into the world.
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Headphones are a different story, differences between headphones are night and day off course. But with amps I made other experiences and that's why I honestly ask you about yours. I read somewhere, not sure if here or on hf, that budget amps are good with hd800 and to really get more quality you should directly go to highest-end amps. And I just want to know if it is worth the money.
What would you consider as the best all-in-one device for the hd800? Perhaps moon neo 430A ?
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Do you think amps and dacs really make much difference with the hd800 or with any other headphone? From my experience the differences always have been very subtile and not worth the huge price tags. I used hd800 straight out of my macbook for some time and it wasn't really that bad (off course net best). I tried byston bha-1, bmc puredac, violectric v200, hdvd800, matrix m-stage, meier audio, ifi, dragonfly)
Before I pay that much for amps I would consider getting a complementary headphone or save my money.
Do you think I'm wrong or have just bad hearing? This is no offense, I just want to learn from your experience because this forum seems to be rather objective, so I wonder that you care so much about amps that should not do anything but amping the signal a bit.
Hey I feel the say way for the most part. But I found a huge difference between the headphone out of my macbook and even a cheap $100 amp. Especially on high resistance headphones, like beyers that are 600ohm. Once you get into amps and dacs it depends who you ask, for most people the differences will be very small.
I think if you are here just because you enjoy music as opposed to the whole audiophile journey of exploring all the gear out there, and you can't hear much of a difference between amps, then just get the one that fits your budget. Here the Schiit vali is highly recommended for the HD800, it's probably one of the best bargains with it's price/performance ratio and it's a tube amp at only $119.
When you see some of the people here talking about huge differences you have to keep it in perspective, these are people with a lot of listening experience who are very discerning.
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I can share my experience.
While i purchased my first pair of sort of hi-fi headphones, the ATH-M50, i probably wouldn't have appreciated HD800 much. Much less cared for high-end amplifier and dac. Mostly because what i searched from music back then and what i was used to listen to. The brain adjusts and develops, technical aspects of sound burn in memory and at this point high-end matters. Now i'm confident in going all out, reaching to the highest branch i can. But all this, because i have developed into this nutcase state that i am today.
I hope that helps.
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From my experience the differences always have been very subtile and not worth the huge price tags.
Subtle ? : Yes . Although specifically with the HD800 , differences can be more dramatic than for other headphones. impressions I gave a few month back when I compared and AudioGD NFB12.1 and a Totaldac/ Eddie Current Balancing Act combo : http://www.head-fi.org/t/650510/the-new-hd800-impressions-thread/8880#post_10338732 .. definitely more than subtle differences.. to my ears at least ;) .
Worth the price tag ? : Depends on what you're after. 2 years ago i couldn't imagine to spend thousands bucks to achieve the best sound. Right now I m' considering the Yggdrasil ( 2300$) and a DNA Stratus ( 2800$)....
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But I found a huge difference between the headphone out of my macbook and even a cheap $100 amp.
That's what I was hearing too. But it's not as bad as many people claim. I would prefer hd800 from headphone out over cheaper headphones with a good amp as it already sounds a bit like a "hd800" imo :D
But the more expensive amps and dacs get the less value for money they offer from my experience as the differences get more and more subtile. But maybe I'm wrong as I haven't heard many of the amps you are talking about here so therefore I was asking. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Perhaps I will triff one of the amps in future. In the meantime I will use ifi idsd micro.
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Do you think amps and dacs really make much difference with the hd800 or with any other headphone? From my experience the differences always have been very subtile and not worth the huge price tags. I used hd800 straight out of my macbook for some time and it wasn't really that bad (off course net best). I tried byston bha-1, bmc puredac, violectric v200, hdvd800, matrix m-stage, meier audio, ifi, dragonfly)
Before I pay that much for amps I would consider getting a complementary headphone or save my money.
Do you think I'm wrong or have just bad hearing? This is no offense, I just want to learn from your experience because this forum seems to be rather objective, so I wonder that you care so much about amps that should not do anything but amping the signal a bit.
Relatively speaking, massive difference. If you know or are trained for what to listen for. The HD800 is the most transparent phone to upstream changes ever created. Period.
If you can't tell the difference between a MacBook, Bryson, or Violectric, then the HD800 is just too much phone for you and you should downgrade to something cheaper.
You can do a search for the dac-off spreadsheet we did to give you an idea of what to listen for.
This is also NOT a pseudo objectivist site. We correlate subjective with objective and fear not either camp no matter how idiotic they can get. Those fake radical jihadi objectivists belong on hydrogen audio where using anything more than a portapro from a sansa clip makes you an audiophool with magic alien crystals shoved up your rectum.
The truth is every headphone, amp, dac, mic, or recording master is colored. The idea that some $10 cmoy offers perfect audible transparency stems from some psychotic inverse anthropomorphic egocentrism in response to snake oil vendors and not any real comprehensive scientific analysis. It's just a different religion which is not an ideal promoted here.
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Do you think amps and dacs really make much difference with the hd800 or with any other headphone? From my experience the differences always have been very subtile and not worth the huge price tags.
I like to think that headphones with low measured distortion scale more with upgrades. Some orthos, electrostats fit in this category also.
Some factors that affect perception of this are 1)how loud you listen to music 2)and how distorted/compressed the music you listen to is.
Also maybe 3)Fit, 4)Food, 5)Temporal rift and top-down processing (caffeine or magic mushrooms). I'm joking about the drug part.
If you're a really low volume listener, you can get away with less expensive gear, as long as it is powerful enough.
The Omega 2 ime has been very unforgiving of DAC's, and my theory is that the tactile experience of ortho and dynamic heapdhones seems to lend itself to less immediate differences, but rest assured, upon more longterm analysis the differences become known.
Some other things that affect first impressions are:
Good tube amps seem to like a bit higher-than-normal listening volume, and some mid-range solid state seems to like low volume listening, in my experience.
So what may seem like an 'upgrade' is often a different flavour.
I've heard a TOTL amp with the HD800's and I can say they scale like a *expletive*, although, you really have to decide how much flavour is enough and how much power is enough: At what point do I stop?
The HD800 is the most addictive headphone to build a system around, I will say that. You could easily spend 10k on a system and still be spending money for tweaks like cables and tube rolling. (if you are interested in that stuff)
I'm not saying I'd encourage it, but the thought has occured to me.
It has single-handedly gotten me interested in dynamic headphones again. I bought and sold a pair on the used market, then bought a brand new pair.
No real reason other than I considered them the equal of the Omega 2 at that point, and I panicked that I might not find a new pair in the future.
The obsession factor and nerding out on detail are the main thing they have going for them.
So you might want to take it easy with regards to how much you get invested.
Flavour (tubes) and power output of the amp would be the 2 considerations I would look at.
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I agree, the HD800 scales very high. But even within the TOTL amps there are variances and it boils down to taste. Those who don't believe amps make a difference should come to my office to hear the Teton and EC 4-45 side by side. They cannot sound more different. Teton is better for modern pop, rock and vocals, 4-45 is better (imo much better) for classical and instrumentals. Through both amps the HD800 resolves very much like the SR009 and is just about as fast.
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What do you guys think about the HD800 for metal and rock? I have heard them but only for a short time and I imagine they would do quite well. Tube or SS for metal? Need detail and speed!
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snip
I've heard a TOTL amp with the HD800's and I can say they scale like a *expletive*, although, you really have to decide how much flavour is enough and how much power is enough: At what point do I stop?
The HD800 is the most addictive headphone to build a system around, I will say that. You could easily spend 10k on a system and still be spending money for tweaks like cables and tube rolling. (if you are interested in that stuff)
I'm not saying I'd encourage it, but the thought has occured to me.
snip
The obsession factor and nerding out on detail are the main thing they have going for them.
So you might want to take it easy with regards to how much you get invested.
Flavour (tubes) and power output of the amp would be the 2 considerations I would look at.
Emphasis mine…
10K is about what I've got invested in my system.
And 800's do scale VERY well, which is why if they are matched up with 'suitable' upstream gear the results can be stellar.
800's will present the signal fed them with a high degree of precision.
IOW if the sound you hear from your 800's doesn't meet your expectations, look at what you're feeding them, first.
And if yours have zizzz, on the top end, I'd suggest pursuit of any of the anax mods or SAA or… to help tame this contribution to what I call LFF (Listener Fatigue Factor).
In my experience, you can make 800's the center piece and build a system around them, again, with stellar results.
JJ
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Nobody tried Questyle cma800r with HD800 :-DD
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Nobody tried Questyle cma800r with HD800 :-DD
Who says? We just don't like it.
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Nobody tried Questyle cma800r with HD800 :-DD
Technical amp with the HD800, but may be too boring for some. It is however detailed, fast and non-fatiguing with the HD800. Also it shows the flavor of the DAC very well, you need some kind of synergy between the DAC and the Questyle. Thin limp dick bass DAC (see DAC1, ODAC etc.) with the questyle is a no go.
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Highly technical amp with the HD800, but may be too boring for some. It is however very detailed
C'mon. It's not that good. What are you guys comparing to as reference?
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C'mon. It's not that good. What are you guys comparing to as reference?
Violectric, audio gd, schiit, O2. I know I know, not quite reference... I've edited my post not to sound too praisy. I've sold mine because I am moving and getting rid of audio things atm, so I like to think I'm not THAT biased. However it's my subjective opinion, and it might ofc not hold up to universal standards.
Also if I remember correctly you guys tested it at a meet with not your personal best DACs. I don't think you would have changed your minds, but it would have been interesting to see how you think the sound changed. IMO this is a very DAC sensitive amp.
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Violectric, audio gd, schiit, O2. I know I know, not quite reference... I've edited my post not to sound too praisy. I've sold mine because I am moving and getting rid of audio things atm, so I like to think I'm not THAT biased. However it's my subjective opinion, and it might ofc not hold up to universal standards.
Also if I remember correctly you guys tested it at a meet with not your personal best DACs. I don't think you would have changed your minds, but it would have been interesting to see how you think the sound changed. IMO this is a very DAC sensitive amp.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1683.msg44880.html#msg44880
Pretty much inline with my experience as well. We've heard it a few times. It's fine if people like it but seriously there is nothing totl about its sound. I suppose I'd call it an improved Yulong sound which isn't saying much. I think the Bakoon slays it and I'd consider that midling performance/sonics. But that's just my frame of ref.
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Did anybody test the Moon Neo 430HA ?
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Thanks for impressions Anax.
I'm keen on getting HD800, seems like it will take forever finding the right amp.
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Evaluate your budget and your sonic preferences and take one of the amps suggested in the first post . Job done. That doesn"t take forever.
my 2 cents
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I'm leaning towards HDVD800 or Auralic Taurus :)p8
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I'm leaning towards HDVD800 or Auralic Taurus :)p8
I have a HDVA600 (same as HDVD800, but without a dac) for sale, and i'm in EU too. Get mine! :)p1
Ofc you need a dac for it, the HDVD is with a semi-usable dac already.
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Not in a hurry and leaning more towards Auralic, just like you where leaning more towards HDVD600 instead of Questyle ;)
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Word is Auralic might be kind of bright for HD800s. Valhalla 2 with some good tubes should seriously be considered. HDVD is a good match, but ultimately it doesn't scale and could be too polite.
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Marv, is there a consensus on what good tunes for the Valhalla 2 are?
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Thanks Marv
I certainly don't want bright, I have tried Mjolnir before ;) or polite and boring.
So I am stayin away from GS X too.
I am actually considering just getting a powferful Yamaha Receiver, as they are not that expensive.
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Well, i recently got a 2 month old HDVA600 and a 1 month old pathos aurium for 1.4k USD total =D.
Would be a fun period to try them out, hopefully, i wont need to break the bank and spring for a ragnarok.
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Thanks Marv
I certainly don't want bright, I have tried Mjolnir before ;) or polite and boring.
So I am stayin away from GS X too.
I am actually considering just getting a powferful Yamaha Receiver, as they are not that expensive.
Is the Mjolnir considered bright by most?
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I Think it is down Right unnatural with that ethcy top, just like most Beyer cans.
I really dont know what all the hype with Schiit gear is all about, but i have only owned and listen to Mjolnir :vomit:
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Dear all,
I compared the Mjolnir with Taurus MK2, AMB Beta 22 and GS-X MK2 before and it was the weakest amp. Very bright, forward and makes your ears go tired fast.
Best budget SS amp for the HD800 under $1,000 in my opinion is either Portaphile 627 or Triad L3.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Between Taurus MK2, AMB Beta 22 and GS-X MK2, which was the better amp?
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I haven't tried the AMB Beta 22, but between the Auralic Taurus MKII, and the GS-X MK1 (not MK2), I preferred the Taurus. Something about it just works better with the HD800 for me. I preferred the Ragnarok over the Taurus though, but the Taurus had more features, looked better and was more user friendly to me. The Ragnarok was more accurate, and a better match, but only marginally so. I have yet to purchase either. I base opinion on a week long audition of many amps for the HD800, all fed by an Auralic Vega or Concero HD.
My current setup with the HD800 is Concero HD -> Schiit Valhalla 2. Before that, it was the Audioengine D1 -> Bottlehead Crack. I have yet to hear the Matrix X-Sabre, but the Concero HD/HP seem to be the best implementation of the newer Sabre chips I have heard.
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Dear all,
I compared the Mjolnir with Taurus MK2, AMB Beta 22 and GS-X MK2 before and it was the weakest amp. Very bright, forward and makes your ears go tired fast.
Best budget SS amp for the HD800 under $1,000 in my opinion is either Portaphile 627 or Triad L3.
Regards,
Jeremiah
So you feel the Mjolnir is etchier sounding than the GS-X 2?
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FFS, people need to get over the b22. It's barely even midfi sounding by today's standards.
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FFS, people need to get over the b22. It's barely even midfi sounding by today's standards.
What do you recommend for a hi-fi sounding DIY solid state amp project then, Anax? :3
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I've heard good things about the l'espressivo (http://www.head-fi.org/t/625157/lespressivo-tube-amp).
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I prefer the Klone, even SE over my old balanced Dynahi or the GSX MK2. The treble is still too much for a lot of pirates, but it's less grainy up top than either of those two.
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I've heard good things about the l'espressivo (http://www.head-fi.org/t/625157/lespressivo-tube-amp).
AKA ECP Torpedo which has already been mentioned as an excellent budget triode option for the HD800
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AKA ECP Torpedo which has already been mentioned as an excellent budget triode option for the HD800
Between Valhalla 2 and the Torpedo, the cost is practically the same. Which one would be the better option?
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When we compared at the SD meet both Anax and I agreed my Torpedo was better sounding in most regards. To put it simply, Torpedo makes Val2 sound like Val1. Catch is I have spent some time tweaking caps and tubes so YMMV.
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Between Taurus MK2, AMB Beta 22 and GS-X MK2, which was the better amp?
Hi dreamwhisper,
I like Beta 22 the best among them. Taurus MK2 is second place but I feel it sounds like modern SS amp so it have a cold, analytical sound. Beta 22 has an old-school sound, remind me of Krell KSA-250 or Pass F5 for example.
Regards,
Jeremiah
So you feel the Mjolnir is etchier sounding than the GS-X 2?
Hi OJneg,
I'm not sure what etchier means but if we talk about roughness in treble then I will say yes. Besides, I don't think it is in the same level as Beta 22, Taurus MK2 and GS-X MK2.
I am curious about Ragnarok but sorry for being honest, I don't have good experience with most Schiit products so far.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Beta 22 has an old-school sound, remind me of Krell KSA-250
Oh, you mean like cassette tapes.
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Maybe more like Vinyl :vomit:
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Maybe more like Vinyl :vomit:
I'm not sure what vinyl rig you've heard.
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Perhaps a DJ rig? headbang
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Vinyls are for hipsters that like distortion just like valves ;)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XFxiLeQmb5k
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Just different sort of distortion or rather noise. Inherently hard to rid of that mechanical noise, but it has less distortion, assuming truly high quality rig and no digital garbage superimposed.
Doesn't look like a good quality cartridge (or vinyl disk) on the video.
Many pirates here hold vinyl in high regard, i have friends whom i trust saying that top vinyl rig surpasses any other source.
Returning of R-2R area might change things, though.
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Then you most be a special kind of naive ;)
When you trust your mate opinion more than your own ;)
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I can not have an opinion myself, when i have not heard said something myself. All i can have is a leap of faith.
I trust my friend's hearing more than some random person's in internet. I also have grown to trust most pirates here, because their suggestions on gear or music have not failed me.
Fotm and super-objectivists hype is not in favor here, thankfully.
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facepalm
I rest My case
:)p13
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The best vinyl and tube rigs out there utterly destroy 90% of the mechanical solid state hash most people claim as superior due to how many zeroes follow the decimal (0.0000001blahblah). The clicks and pops disappear cuz the rest sounds soooo good. Whereas most solid state usually gives you this 'sound of sand' over everything. Sort of a low fi grain that's more subtle than say MP3 compression artifacts.
The macro stuff on a good pressing doesn't bother me as I'm used to rather naked high quality masters devoid of noise reduction veiling anyway so I don't mind as long as its not something persistently egregious and repetitive.
The continuity and clarity of vinyl and tubes is just unmatched. Distortion noobs just fixate on the wrong measurements most of the time.
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facepalm
I rest My case
:)p13
Regarding tubes i was in the same boat with you until i heard Apex Pinnacle, which may or my not be among best amplifiers ever made for HD800.
This thing just uterly destroys anything solid state i have heard to date. And i dislike slow and gooey amplifiers or anything that compresses dynamics, apparently.
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You dont get clarity in Vinyl, you get that in hq headphones and active speakers.
Solid state are only preferable with headphones, as passive speakers also have distortion just like vinyl and valves, so not much point in using them anyway.
If you want good Vinyl sound plug them to and good active speaker, if you what superior sound use lossless files with good active speakers.. Not that many have tried to compare so don't know what they are talking about.
Too much of this topic it's a waste of time talking to a door facepalm
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You dont get clarity in Vinyl..., as passive speakers also have distortion just like vinyl and valves, so not much point in using them anyway.
From my experience I could not disagree more. Do comparative listening to a live feed as we did at Caltech in the Music Lab and then comment.
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As I said before I tested Vinyl vs 128 MP3, on my Bad JMR passive speakers and Cayin amp and MP3 sounded much more clean I did the same on some hq active speakers and vinyl sounded muddy and lacking big time in details to lossless files miles ahead which sounded much more clean with superior details you never had the chance hearing with vinyl.
Classic case of let's agree to disagree ;)
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It would help, if you stated the specific rigs you used.
I can believe a typical 500$ DJ vinyl player can easily be worse than computer soundcard outputing 128kbps mp3.
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Will this make you happy?
JMR Trente & Cayin 256AI + Rega Planar 3 (RB300) w. Elys MM. dynavector p75 RIAA.
Acer notebook with 128 MP3 which where way better.
Even with turntable costing a lot more and had everything going for it, it couldn't match the much cleaner sound reproduction coming from my cheap little Acer.
AVI ADM 9RSS active speakers - same turntable, cartridge and RIAA.
Mac mini with iTunes lossless files which really where not fair to the poor turntable even if it had been 128 MP3.
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I know the Rega Planar 3. When properly setup with a good cartridge, an Audio Technical with MicroLine stylus will do, and quality phono stage, it should smoke any MP3 and most CD players. We used to demo the Planar 3 versus CD players when I worked the weekends at Acoustic Image to customers and most would leave surprised at how poor the CD sounds compared to good vinyl.
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That's because only the trained ear can hear the difference compering vinyl vs. mp3 on bad passive speakers.
As you worked in a store you where biased anyway just like 95% of the audiofools in the Industry.
Going by same approach with an Good active speakers its pretty obvious and downright painfull listening to vinyl, as i where are longtime collecter myself, but i where shocked to put it Mieldly and sold my beloved collection.
Good riddens.
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lol wtf?
What about active speakers makes you think they're better than equivalently high-quality passives?
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That's because only the trained ear can hear the difference compering vinyl vs. mp3 on bad passive speakers.
As you worked in a store you where biased anyway just like 95% of the audiofools in the Industry.
Going by same approach with an Good active speakers its pretty obvious and downright painfull listening to vinyl, as i where are longtime collecter myself, but i where shocked to put it Mieldly and sold my beloved collection.
Good riddens.
What are you talking about?! The general public could easily hear the difference for themselves. As for me I was originally a numbers (digital, solid state) supporter in the early 90s until I heard for myself that the traditional measurements don't correlate well with perceive sound quality.'
You may want to check out Hydrogen Audio - I think you will find a better audience for your beliefs there.
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That's because only the trained ear can hear the difference compering vinyl vs. mp3 on bad passive speakers.
I highly doupt the designer of one of the most highly regarded headphone amplifiers in the world can be ragarded as one among 95% of audiophools or with un-trained ears. This is just silly statement.
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As I said before this is a waste of time as you are just as biased as head-fi.
And I really doesn't matter when you areNOT are open minded for the better.
1. In The True Horror of Passive Crossovers, Dr CS has shown how the crossover progressively disconnects drive units from amplifiers to lower the output from the bass driver and increases it to the tweeter. In the process control is lost, which is clearly audible ( booming bass for a start) and worse than active typically by a factor of up to 300. This is partly why actives are so much more clear.
2. Martin Grindrod explained all the measurements he'd made and showed how inductors might produce as much as 10% distortion under certain drive conditions. This is terrible compared to even the most basic active crossover that would have about 0.0015%.
3. We've also explained that it is vital to reduce the output from each driver as quickly as possible as we pass the crossover point. This is to avoid audible overlap that occurs in this region. We argued that 2nd order electronic filters were the steepest practical with passive designs, but that 4th orders were possible with actives and gave a significant improvement in smoothness and clarity. It is easily audible, but we've been contradicted by "experts" on other forums. Sadly it wasn't easy to prove this statement until recently when we obtained a DSP evaluation package.
Pretty obvious who's the bull shitter when you are just realing on other people's ears like Priidick and Havent done objective listening test for yourselfs, damn kids!
Peace out, suckers :money:
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As I said before this is a waste of time as you are just as biased as head-fi.
And I really doesn't matter when you areNOT are open minded for the better.
1. In The True Horror of Passive Crossovers, Dr CS has shown how the crossover progressively disconnects drive units from amplifiers to lower the output from the bass driver and increases it to the tweeter. In the process control is lost, which is clearly audible ( booming bass for a start) and worse than active typically by a factor of up to 300. This is partly why actives are so much more clear.
2. Martin Grindrod explained all the measurements he'd made and showed how inductors might produce as much as 10% distortion under certain drive conditions. This is terrible compared to even the most basic active crossover that would have about 0.0015%.
3. We've also explained that it is vital to reduce the output from each driver as quickly as possible as we pass the crossover point. This is to avoid audible overlap that occurs in this region. We argued that 2nd order electronic filters were the steepest practical with passive designs, but that 4th orders were possible with actives and gave a significant improvement in smoothness and clarity. It is easily audible, but we've been contradicted by "experts" on other forums. Sadly it wasn't easy to prove this statement until recently when we obtained a DSP evaluation package.
LOL... http://hddaudio.net/viewtopic.php?id=8510
walk the fucking plank.
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Pretty obvious who's the bull shitter when you are just realing on other people's ears like Priidick and Havent done objective listening test for yourselfs, damn kids!
Peace out, suckers :money:
I'm probably older than yourself. Also, i said i'd take a leap of faith about vinyl once (based on countless opinions from well regarded ears). Other suggestions were based on first hand experience. It is juvenile from your own part to call people names (Priidick?) and suggest we haven't done comparative tests ourselves. We don't spout shit like you posted here, because it rarely translates to results in percieved audio quality.
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That's because only the trained ear can hear the difference compering vinyl vs. mp3 on bad passive speakers.
I agree that complex crossovers crush the performance of speakers. I prefer speakers with no crossovers or a very simple crossover. There are a lot of compromises with this approach. Active crossovers are not necessarily the solution, especially if the active stages are just as complex and use a chain of four to six op-amps running massive feedback. In the end, there is no solution that does everything well. We have to pick the architectures which suit the sonic attributes that we prioritize.
I don't know if you know this - but we are not a bunch of HF noobs. Donald has built active speakers and crossovers. He also designed speaker drivers (he used to work at Aura) and was involved in some very well known speakers from some big names. I have built a variety of speakers both active and passive as DIY projects. Some with DSP, some with complex 48 piece crossovers, some with passive line-level crossovers, some with no crossovers, some with simple two-three component crossovers. I've played with practically every kind of driver technology. My parent's garage and my garage are a graveyard for old speaker cabinets. More than a few people here have been doing this kind of stuff for decades. We don't need to cite other people, other websites, etc. Sorry, but you are totally out of your element. It's obvious you have no clue what you are talking about.
I enjoy debating the merits of various architectures to get the best sound. But obviously you already know everything from reading stuff on the web (BTW, practical hands on experience trumps reading or citing others here), so no need for debate. Take a hike - permanently.
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Does anybody know if EC still makes the 445, and if so, anybody have a rough estimate of how long it would take from order and payment to receiving the amp? Thank you in advance :)
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When we compared at the SD meet both Anax and I agreed my Torpedo was better sounding in most regards. To put it simply, Torpedo makes Val2 sound like Val1. Catch is I have spent some time tweaking caps and tubes so YMMV.
Coulda sworn Id read another thread where you'd talked about what you did with your Torpedo, but I couldn't seem to find it, maybe it was all in the shout box...anyways, I was wondering if you'd be willing to share what all you did with yours?
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Coulda sworn Id read another thread where you'd talked about what you did with your Torpedo, but I couldn't seem to find it, maybe it was all in the shout box...anyways, I was wondering if you'd be willing to share what all you did with yours?
Replaced parafeed caps with Jantzen Silvers. Silvers have more attack and more sparkle. Also more clear and resolving. Huge difference here.
The stock tubes (6J6) are pretty good so I think this comes down to which headphone you use and whether you prefer the hi-Z or low-Z tap. The E90CC is more analytical, less bassy. I've heard some call it more "digital", probably because they have a less organic midrange. The E92CC gets you a mix of both. Very detailed and resolving, and also dynamics and bass explosiveness. But it's even brighter than the E90CC so it pushes the HD800 over the edge in my view. I swap all three of these out regularly.
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Does anybody know if EC still makes the 445, and if so, anybody have a rough estimate of how long it would take from order and payment to receiving the amp? Thank you in advance :)
I think they do, it's still on the site and in theory orderable, but there's no estimate on how long it would take. Assume longer than Schiit, but probably shorter than a BHSE.
I personally hope they're still being manufactured, I have a fund slowly filling up to get one.
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For those of you who may be flirting with the notion of picking up (and assembling) a flagship tube amp for your hd800's, I noticed that bottlehead is running a major sale on mainline's ($200 off) through Sunday. Don't think they've dropped this low since the initial preorder when I acquired mine. http://bottlehead.com/smf/index.php?topic=7581.0
Disclaimer - the build definitely takes some time, and has many many components, but no single step is any harder than building a crack + speedball, and the end result is right up there with the best of the best in headphone tube amps to my ears (having sampled most of the usual suspects: TTVJ 307A, ZD, WA5 max etc. at canjam). From a design standpoint, it basically ticks all the boxes: highly regulated, constant current loaded, single gain stage parafeed circuit, with good quality iron, se/balanced outs (via secondary tapped output transformers) and bottlehead's awesome custom fine/coarse stepped attenuator circuit. I'm normally a pot > stepper guy, but the fine/course setup has totally won me over.
Couldn't be happier with mine, although I did end up throwing in some fancy teflon output caps to make it a little more my own when some RTI castoffs, made for AR, were floating around on the market. In any event, love mine, and apologies for gushing a bit.
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Wish I could jump on that.
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shipsupt! Did you build your Mainline yet and what is the verdict (if you get this query in time)? Someone has an EC Super 7 with cap upgrade for same price as a regularly priced Mainline in the FS section. This might be a tough choice but nice one to have. If I can build a Crack, most people can build a Mainline.
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Gotta believe you'd truly love the mainline as a torpedo fan OJ - since the parafeed circuit was born in Doc B's basement! There's actually a really cool little exchange between Doc and Doug (of ECP) on the the history of this topology over in one of the HF threads. http://www.head-fi.org/t/683012/bottlehead-amplifier-discussion-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline/735#post_10604677
Given my love for the mainline, I've actually been toying with the idea of building up a torpedo as a bedside rig. The wife might get a little hostile if I bring yet another diy amp into the house walk the plank2, but I don't doubt it would make an awesome little brother for the main rig, and I'd like to show a little love to Doug and Tomb (aside from the pupdac kit sitting on my bench). They are such gracious MOT's, and Doug's write up explaining parafeed amps is second to none: http://diy.ecpaudio.com/p/parafeed-tutorial.html
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Dammit guys, stop dangling shiny things in front of me when I have home appliances that need replacing... :'(
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For those who have heard both: Valhalla 2 or Senn HDVA600 ?
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For those who have heard both: Valhalla 2 or Senn HDVA600 ?
Val 2 easily, especially if you have interest in trying out different DACs. 7DJ8 Telefunkens might work really well. Resolving, mellow and subtle. 7DJ8 is the 7 volt version of 6922 and almost always works in place of it. Sort of a secret. Will only say this once here.
The chip amp in the Senn amp is a good match for the HD800, but tends to impart its soft mellow sound regardless of DAC.
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Val 2 easily, especially if you have interest in trying out different DACs. 7DJ8 Telefunkens might work really well. Resolving, mellow and subtle. 7DJ8 is the 7 volt version of 6922 and almost always works in place of it. Sort of a secret. Will only say this once here.
The chip amp in the Senn amp is a good match for the HD800, but tends to impart its soft mellow sound regardless of DAC.
Thank you! I am ampless at the moment, and are very close to pulling the trigger on the Val 2. Looks like a killer value for HD800. Any idea if it will play nice with the X-sabre, or will it be too bright up top?
Edit: Fuck it, ordered!
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I have iFi idsd micro and BMC Ultradac at the moment and I'm slightly preferring the iFi. Maybe I'm accustomed to the sound of the iFi or I'm cheating myself?
Or are ESS chips generally bad synergy with hd800? Also iFi has <1 Ohm Impedance and BMC has 10 Ohm. I will try the balanced output (near 0 Ohm) of the BMC as soon as I get a balanced cable, maybe next week and see if it gets better.
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I have iFi idsd micro and BMC Ultradac at the moment and I'm slightly preferring the iFi. Maybe I'm accustomed to the sound of the iFi or I'm cheating myself?
Or are ESS chips generally bad synergy with hd800? Also iFi has <1 Ohm Impedance and BMC has 10 Ohm. I will try the balanced output (near 0 Ohm) of the BMC as soon as I get a balanced cable, maybe next week and see if it gets better.
Can you be more specific about what you are preferring and not liking?
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I'm not good in describing sound but I try will try it. I think BMC has a bit artificial soundstage which hast too much reverb. Sounds a bit like you're in the mountains and hear an echo. iFi is more direct, has more pressure and bass impact and more details in the highs. BMC has more details in the mids and sounds more liquid.
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Regarding BMC the single ended hp out in Puredac (cheaper/older version of Ultra) is total poo, while the balanced out is fairly decent.
Worth noting that the SE is also with cross-feed, and in case of Puredac 100ohms.
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Could be that's just the BMC's sound signature. I heard a couple BMCs over the years and was never really a fan. Falls into the less precise and accurate colored signatures if I recall. From an old post:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1151.msg31241.html#msg31241
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From what I read the single ended output in the Ultradac should be much better than in the Puredac and has "only" 10 Ohm impedance. Somebody who tested it with a LCD-X claimed that both outputs would be the same in terms of quality. I will probably get a XLR cable from Norne next week and then I will test balanced output before I get rid of it. Perhaps it will be better.
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Could be that's just the BMC's sound signature. I heard a couple BMCs over the years and was never really a fan. Falls into the less precise and accurate colored signatures if I recall. From an old post:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1151.msg31241.html#msg31241
I think that's what I hear too. Very smooth sound (read imprecise) with a bit lack of presence and impact and very colourful mids and a bit artificial soundstage with way too much reverb. Perhaps this effect is intended to fake the soundstage bigger than it really is?
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Anybody heard both BH Mainline and DNA Sonett II? Weighing up between the two of these for anticipated future HD purchase, but will prepare the rest of the chain in advance.
Which gets the nod? Why?
The people that have heard both are probably few and far in between.
They also seem to use different design topologies, so you may be comparing apples to oranges.
Also, keep in mind that the Sonett 2 is built to order, and the Mainline is a medium skill level DIY project.
You also probably missed the discounted Mainline kit last weekend on Bottlehead. :(
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Comparison vs. Stratus, FWIW of course....
http://www.head-fi.org/t/683012/bottlehead-amplifier-discussion-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline/1035#post_11363673
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Nice comparo OJ, thanks for the link. Sounds like the Super 7 would still best the Mainline rather handily for similar money. Of course the S7 is out of production and the Mainline isn't.
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Not sure how you're coming to your conclusion.... but his comparison does make sense given un-modded HD800 and Bricasti M1 are in the chain
It's no wonder it is often considered the best amp for the HD800's. A lot of all this, however, has to do with personal preference. The Stratus is a warmer amp than the Mainline and I find that mixes well with the HD800's. The Mainline is much more neutral. It's actually much more similar to my SuSy Dynahi in signature which also happens to be considered one of the best solid state amps for the HD800's. The Mainline is somewhere in between the two for voicing, but much closer to the Dynahi. As a side note, the Dynahi (also a DIY amp) cost more to build than the Mainline.
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The mainline's output power is online 600 mw, where the Super 7 puts out 1.1 W.
But I'm not sure everyone uses power into 32 ohms as the standard measurement, and the bottle head website doesn't specify, so it might be wrong to assume it's more/less powerful.
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Not sure how you're coming to your conclusion.... but his comparison does make sense given un-modded HD800 and Bricasti M1 are in the chain
Cuz I know how my S7 compares to the Stratus which he said was technically superior to the Mainline. This is confirmed in my view as my S7 bests the Dynahi too.
The mainline's output power is online 600 mw, where the Super 7 puts out 1.1 W.
But I'm not sure everyone uses power into 32 ohms as the standard measurement, and the bottle head website doesn't specify, so it might be wrong to assume it's more/less powerful.
Well, my S7 is pushing around 2 Watts. ;)
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How does the S7 compare to the Stratus?
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How does the S7 compare to the Stratus?
Bear in mind mine is upgraded and runs a 6BX7 driver among other things. Donald's Stratus is the richer and thicker sounding with perhaps a more 3D soundstage. My S7 is ultimately more precise and resolving of inner dynamics and articulation. The Stratus is a much better tonal match for a stock HD800 whereas if I tried to get that color with my S7, it would compromise a lot of the technicalities and push it below the Stratus on those points. The S7 is still very tube dependent and the 6SN7 and 7N7 ultimately have limits to their flexibility (i.e. tube bandwidth of capabilities) if you ask me.
For the average listener with stock phones, the Stratus is the better pairing with an HD800. For those interested in ultimate microscopy of sources, phones and music I prefer my S7 rig. It's more like a SS tool without a lot of the SS fatigue/annoyance issues. The genre bandwidth of your music collection will decrease with my S7 versus the current Stratus.
So it comes down to if you are a macro information listener or a micro detail examiner. I'd say for most people's tastes and their musical collections I've seen at most shows, the Stratus is the better solution with the HD800. It is also around twice the price.
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God I can't imagine how to Stratus will sound with the Yggy, getting goosebumps just thinking about it.
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I am now a happy new owner of a pair of HD800! Fuck, now I get all the plankton talk! I've listened to these more than a few times after they came out from shitty systems (cambridge+lehmann) to very good sounding systems that showed their potential and got me interested (linn+heed/naim).
You all know this, but I just gots to gush... Pitch definition is sublime from bass to midrange to the screeching high tones. They're fast and effortless. Punch when called for, take it easy when appropriate. The plankton: I hear just as much new relevant musical information as irrelevant. I think the only negative is the splishy splashy treble for now. Sounded the best out of the HP-out of the Linn Majik DS-i; toned them down a bit without harming technicalities. Linn as DAC+Leckerton = colder and more harsh without adding much to the table in terms of technicalities, detail and so on. Plug them into the Leckerton via toslink on a computer and they are far from nice and turned from sounding good with most material to making me pick only the few reference cd's that are also musically quite minimalistic for them to be tolerable... I knew they were picky and the Leckerton DAC blows donkey balls, but damn, they indeed show everything. Need to upgrade stuff.
So now I've got two choices:
1) Get rid of my Majik DS-i, which I like for its dlna simplicity and excellent amp/dac performance, and replace it with a rag/iggy combo. Mmm.
2) Keep the Linn for a speaker setup and settle for something more discreet, such as a bifrost/valhalla2 combo, for desktop use only.
The first option requires some refurbishing, because dat stack is just huge. I think the first option could be a go, if Raggy could handle driving my main speakers and an active set from preout (obviously not simultaneously), but it doesn't seem to have a switch to toggle this. If it did it would simply do everything I need it to do.
I kind of like the effortlessness SS provieds, but haven't tried any really good OTL's, except a certain DNA model I can't recall, and that was very good with the HD800's and W5000's to name two I tried.. Seems those amps are still a favorable option for the HD800. Awesome. I guess the raggy just intrigues with its versatility though and after getting Anax's mods would work very well for an SS.
Thanks for everyone's input on this thread. If you have anything more to add with regards to my circumstances, feel free to comment. First date (minus the flirtatious earlier meetings) with HD800 went well. I really want to get to know her better.
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Thanks for your response.
I have dipped my toes into DIY waters, but still have a lot to learn about design topologies and their effect on sound. What is the design topology of the Sonett and Mainline? How does this effect their sound? Why is it not valid to compare them, especially since they are a similar price and I am comfortable building the Mainline?
Yeah, I saw that BH had knocked a couple of hundred off the Mainline. Would have jumped on it only I am out of work at the moment and can't afford it. Only way to truly know what something sounds like is to hear it (obvious, huh). Your opinion is valuable in that it helps me determine where I want to outlay my hard-earned in order to use my ears instead of others' ears.
Thanks again
Nathan
Nathan, it's not my place to make in depth comparisons between the two design topologies, nor do I know enough to comfortable make those distinctions.
My comment about the DIY was just a comment. It's obviously irrelevant if you think you can do the build yourself.
Considering your budget limitations, I can't imagine you'd be disappointed with either. Both amps are designed by top notch guys. There is more feedback on the Sonett 2 since the Mainline is a DIY design and many people are put off by DIY.
--Jeff
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I'm not sure whether you've made my decision harder or easier, Jeff. I am leaning towards the Sonett as I suspect there to be more tube rolling options to tweak the sound (a double edged sword as it can become a money pit). Have plenty more time for research while I save the pennies.
If anyone would like to chime with generalisations about the effects of topology on sound, I would love to hear from you!
What are you using now? Have you considered the Vali to give you a taste of what a decent tube implementation would sound like on the HD800? Might tide you over in case you wanted to save up for something like the Stratus.
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Vali doesn't sound like the BH Crack. Lower output impedance, so less of a midbass bump to my ear. More neutral, leaner but still has a bit of tube wetness without loosing too much bite on the top end. Great stage size for the price point, and quite resolving. I tend to think that people often under-source the Vali. It takes advantage of my Gungnir/Wyrd.
Valhalla 2 may also be worth considering if you're going to be using it for a year or two. It's probably a bit closer to the Crack than Vali, though still not as much body compared to the various tube implementations I've heard on the Crack.
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Yeah... I don't think the Crack can be described as "fast" or "tight" with T1. I have heard the combo multiple times, with many different tubes, power tubes, even capacitors, and the tubby/warm/fat bottom end of the Crack persists. I think that's just an inherent characteristic of it.
The Vali would definitely be much more neutral, and may even be a bit bitey/bright/peaky, since I think the Crack kind of rolls off the upper end a bit, too.
Overall performance-wise, the two are kind of opposite as well, where the Crack can sound a bit laid-back, gentle, "refined", and the Vali can sound a bit exciting, aggressive, "forward"?
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The Crack has been great for me with the HD800, but I do echo the sentiments that it seems to top out at the HD6X0 series. With the HD650, I knew it was as pretty damn close to the best they were ever going to sound. On the HD800, I know there is untapped potential that the Crack just can't seem to squeak out.
I do like the more "tubey" voicing of the Crack so the next natural step seems to be the Stratus for me. However, with the Yggy on the horizon, I need to decide where to go first..
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If you love the Crack's sound, I'd say... just stick with it. I have heard a pretty extensively modded Crack (rolled both output and power tubes, silver internal wiring, silver solder, and also much more expensive capacitors, plus the Speedball upgrade), and it's better than the stock Crack for sure, but it still sounds pretty much like a Crack. Modding can only "change" certain things, but it won't inherently change the way a design will sound, or so I think.
That's not to say the Crack is a bad amp. I'd personally take it over the Vali any day. The Crack exhibits much less problems than the Vali (no hiss/hum/noise, no tube microphonic ringing...), so that's one important criteria for me.
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With the Vali at 150% the price in Australia, that's a bit more difficult to justify for the sake of just trying it. I'd pocket that money and put it towards saving for something like the Stratus.
From a value proposition the Crack is pretty high performing, I don't think you're going to find anything mind-blowingly better until you get in the range of $2000+
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If you love the Crack's sound, I'd say... just stick with it. I have heard a pretty extensively modded Crack (rolled both output and power tubes, silver internal wiring, silver solder, and also much more expensive capacitors, plus the Speedball upgrade), and it's better than the stock Crack for sure, but it still sounds pretty much like a Crack. Modding can only "change" certain things, but it won't inherently change the way a design will sound, or so I think.
That's not to say the Crack is a bad amp. I'd personally take it over the Vali any day. The Crack exhibits much less problems than the Vali (no hiss/hum/noise, no tube microphonic ringing...), so that's one important criteria for me.
I'm of the same thought, especially at the prices listed. If you know you like the Crack, stick with it. The Crack definitely has it's own "character", and while it might not be a resolution monster, it brings a certain engagement factor to the table that's quite enjoyable - there's a reason why it's on the recommended list.
Personally, between the Crack/Valhalla 2/Vali, I preferred the Valhalla 2. The Crack is more colored IMO, and the Vali is leaner (tonally more similar to Ragnarok actually [Bill-p's favorite amp]). Valhalla 2 strikes a really nice balance. I returned my Val 2 and it was a mistake.
:spank:
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Bwahahaha, yeah...
I actually don't like the Ragnarok all that much. For some reason, I thought it sounded weird in the 4-5KHz region. It stands out because I've been bothered at that spot with the HE-560 for so long. In fact, my ownership of the HE-560 has taught me how much I hate a peak around that point... especially when it shows up in any recording. Netflix being the worst offender here, and I absolutely can't stand Netflix with the HE-560 at all... but that's really beside the point here.
I tend to prefer a gentler, less aggressive and more laid-back presentation personally, so the Crack hits all of the right buttons for me. :) Vali... I can probably end up liking if paired with an Audeze headphone, but I'd still be bothered by the hiss/hum/noise floor and the tube ringing. The TTVJ Portable Hybrid Tube that I got from CEE TEE also has hum/noise and ringing, but to a much lesser degree than the Vali IMO.
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I actually don't have a problem with the Vali's noise floor when using it with 300ohm Senns, though I do understand it's an issue with more efficient cans. My Vali also hardly has any microphonics - it requires a pretty firm tap to hear any ringing. Perhaps I received a good sample though. I've heard/read some horror stories.
Interesting comment on the Rag. I've never felt it emphasized that region per say (granted, your ears are probably more developed than mine), though it's certainly on the forward/direct/aggressive side. I can see where that'd be an issue if you prefer a more laid-back presentation. While I definitely wouldn't call Ragnarok "romantic" sounding, I don't feel it's cold and heartless either. Personally, I'm really happy with it. I would note that when I first got it, it had a slightly "plastic" sound to my ear...hard to describe. As I've accumulated hours, that's gone away and its become more organic and natural sounding. And no, I will not take a quintuple blind comparative test to objectively prove that perception.
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Yeah... no, I don't think Rag is cold and heartless. It's quite a smooth and refined sounding amp... considering its aggressive nature.
It's just that the aggressiveness gets to me, and then fatigue sets in pretty fast. I've found... objectively, using measurements, that I'm sensitive to as little as a 0.5dB change in the region between 4KHz to 10KHz... so any weird spot in there would be bad to me. If it's a single peak from 8-10KHz, though, it's usually not that bad, but 4-7KHz is just asking for trouble.
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You sure it was the Rag or something else?
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I heard the Rag on 2 occasions. Once connected to Yggy at Ravi's, and another at Knerian's connected to the Gungnir. Both times I think I heard that emphasis somehow.
I think I need to check Rag on a headphone that doesn't have a problem spot at 4-5KHz. Both times, I only heard Rag with either HD800 or HE-560, and I know both have a bit of emphasis around there. HD800 higher than HE-560.
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I heard the Rag on 2 occasions. Once connected to Yggy at Ravi's, and another at Knerian's connected to the Gungnir. Both times I think I heard that emphasis somehow.
I think I need to check Rag on a headphone that doesn't have a problem spot at 4-5KHz. Both times, I only heard Rag with either HD800 or HE-560, and I know both have a bit of emphasis around there. HD800 higher than HE-560.
Would you call it only a peak, or did you get a weird timbre like a dry, etchy grain too?
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Yeah, I think it's more of a dry/etchy grain and a peak. Given that both the HE-560 and HD800 (stock) have problems right around there, it may turn out I was just hearing that from both headphones. Rag being as good as it is probably just shows the headphones' weakness that way, whereas some other amps kinda hide them. (I know my DIY amp was intentionally "tinkered" in such a way to hide this spot)
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You guys ever thought of using older ashly pro/studio mosfet amps with these? Ashly makes lot of great stuff that gets unnoticed sometimes.
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So, my Valhalla 2 was returned to my dealer (yes, there is a Schiit dealer in Vancouver lol) due to a problem that neither him or I could figure out, and instead of emailing Schiit, I decided to return it and let the dealer take care of it (yeah, I'm a dick :( ), so now I have a choice of waiting for his next shipment which is March 15th-ish and get a new Valhalla 2, or buy a new amp. Primarily looking for something to use with the HD800. I'm wondering if there is something better than Valhalla 2, and is priced between $350 to $1200. Marv's list has kind of a gap there. Or is Valhalla 2 sound pretty darn good already without going 3K-4K?
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There's two Canucks selling Super7's here...
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Jeremiah mentioned it but I'm confirming that the Triad L3 Lion is the best portable amp I've ever heard for the HD800 and I've tried quite a few.
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Count me in as being interested about the Valhalla 2 pairing. Especially when taking tube rolling into effect. I feel like the "Probably top third of this list in terms of SQ. Yes, that's how good it is...Not an insult to Schiit or Eddie Current, but someone made an Eddie Current amp for $349" part is a bit of a tease. :)p7
Any thoughts on the Decware amps? They kind of seem to be somewhat of an unknown entity overall and they slide right in between the price gaps.
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Any thoughts on the Decware amps? They kind of seem to be somewhat of an unknown entity overall and they slide right in between the price gaps.
You mean the Triode? I'd like to hear it. If his Taboo III's performance with planars is any indication whatsoever, it should be very good.
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Ignore this post if low to mid range amplifiers are uninteresting.
Anyways, i recently tried some ancient integrated amplifiers (80's Yamaha, Sansui, smth i forgot the name for) w HD800 , i liked the Sansui.
If budget is tight and desk space isn't limited Sansui A-40 (~100$?) works nicely with HD800.
Negatives are a bit soft tone and too clean sound at the same time, lacking in textures i think, but swings hard. I'd say it is better than anything ss appart from HDVA600 i have tried so far, and that is because the HDVA does some textures, that the Sansui lacks (perhaps i mean microdynamics) and is overall a bit more refined sounding, but HDVA is definently more soft dynamically.
I tried speaker outs too: even more massive macro dynamics (slam) + constant ~25dB hiss (noise floor). Hits clearly harder than Sennheiser amp. Soundstage is extremely wide, like some good tube amp wide, but lacking in depth. I wonder if it is even overly dynamic?
Whoever gets to keep one for HD800 should try to lower gain in this thing. It might be my amp for time being if someone buys my HDVA.
I could seriously live with this Sansui and Clip+ for a while feeding HD800.
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Ignore this post if low to mid range amplifiers are uninteresting.
Anyways, i recently tried some ancient integrated amplifiers (80's Yamaha, Sansui, smth i forgot the name for) w HD800 , i liked the Sansui.
If budget is tight and desk space isn't limited Sansui A-40 (~100$?) works nicely with HD800.
Negatives are a bit soft tone and too clean sound at the same time, lacking in textures i think, but swings hard. I'd say it is better than anything ss appart from HDVA600 i have tried so far, and that is because the HDVA does some textures, that the Sansui lacks (perhaps i mean microdynamics) and is overall a bit more refined sounding, but HDVA is definently more soft dynamically.
I tried speaker outs too: even more massive macro dynamics (slam) + constant ~25dB hiss (noise floor). Hits clearly harder than Sennheiser amp. Soundstage is extremely wide, like some good tube amp wide, but lacking in depth. I wonder if it is even overly dynamic?
Whoever gets to keep one for HD800 should try to lower gain in this thing. It might be my amp for time being if someone buys my HDVA.
I could seriously live with this Sansui and Clip+ for a while feeding HD800.
I really like some vintage amps with the hd800...depends on the amp and design of the amp. The Fisher 500c is just stunning with the 800.
On a separate note, I have a one of a kind prototype amp built by Phi Larocco. The amp is referred to as the Headcode Triad. It's has surpassed all my expectations with the hd800 and 650. One of the best SS amps I've ever had the pleasure to listen to.
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Does the new production 2A3x4 with cinemags upstage the Stratus? From impressions, the old 2A3x4 seemed to be a different flavor of 2A3 amp, not necessarily better, than the Stratus.
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So, my Valhalla 2 was returned to my dealer (yes, there is a Schiit dealer in Vancouver lol) due to a problem that neither him or I could figure out, and instead of emailing Schiit, I decided to return it and let the dealer take care of it (yeah, I'm a dick :( ), so now I have a choice of waiting for his next shipment which is March 15th-ish and get a new Valhalla 2, or buy a new amp. Primarily looking for something to use with the HD800. I'm wondering if there is something better than Valhalla 2, and is priced between $350 to $1200. Marv's list has kind of a gap there. Or is Valhalla 2 sound pretty darn good already without going 3K-4K?
Well, if your interested, i have a 4 month old HVDA600 =D. Just sold off my HD800's, so they are just sitting there powering iems occasionally lol.
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For those interested , I experienced an Audiovalve RKV mkII this sunday. I had read somewhere that this amp was slow, tubey but that's not what My ears said to me.
I know I'm nothing here compared to all experienced pyrates but this is my opinion :
The result with the HD800 is great, not slow, not muddy, not gooey. Clear and fast with a great sense of resolution and detail. Slight engaging bass boost and sparkle in the treble . Typical OTL Clarity and lushness. A great match with the HD800 Maybe a bit agressive/fatiguing. In comparison the DNA Sonett is warmer/smoother , less detailed and more forgiving for average recordings. Definitely more tubey. IMO the Mkv's Soundstage is a bit congested. it can be a pro or a con. Depends on recordings and tastes. My Sonett sounds a bit more upfront but more envelopping/surrounding.
The RKV does not match the DNA sense of intimacy and the "metallic free" rendering of voices and acoustic intruments ( Solo Violin, cello, piano reveal clearly this point) . the RKV offers a more precise, sparkling and punchy sound and it is more lush. The DNA is smoother.
Wonder if the Stratus would allow me to keep the very specific DNA smoothness with more sparkle and resolution and lush.
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I'm wondering if anyone here have heard the ECP-L2 and Schiit Ragnarok with the HD800. I'm thinking of jumping on failed engineers unit, but am in abit of a conflict.
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I listen to my HD800's quite often with Ragnarok; it does a very good job of driving them. I slightly prefer the HD800 with a good tube amp, for for an SS amp - Ragnarok is probably one of the very best options.
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I listen to my HD800's quite often with Ragnarok; it does a very good job of driving them. I slightly prefer the HD800 with a good tube amp, for for an SS amp - Ragnarok is probably one of the very best options.
Would you say that something like a Zana deux se, wa22, dna stratus would be better than a rag?
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On technicalities, in some ways yes, others no. In tube bloom, harmonics, etc - yes; if you like that sort of thing and I do.
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Does the Valhalla2 require any boutique tubes to sound its best? Or do the stock ones sound good?
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That's very subjective - but I think Valhalla 2 sounds pretty good with stock tubes, but definitely can be upgrades with the right NOS tubes.
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That's very subjective - but I think Valhalla 2 sounds pretty good with stock tubes, but definitely can be upgrades with the right NOS tubes.
Hmm thanks, have you heard the Crack? How does it compare to the Valhalla 2, been thinking about getting either the Val2 or Vali to hold me over while I save up for a big boy tube amp (EC BA or DNA Stratus).
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Would you say that something like a Zana deux se, wa22, dna stratus would be better than a rag?
Zana Deux is tricky. Although OTL with euphonic luxurious kind of sound, it also tends to be the sharpest in terms of treble among the EC amps. On a relative scale, no where as sharp as some SS amps, but just be something to be aware of. If ZD, I'd consider the use of replacement (copper) cable with the HD800 and/or a DAC without any digital edge.
DNA Stratus is warm and tubey, but done in a most tasteful way. HD800 do work out of the Stratus. The "wet", intimate nature, and microdynamic ability of the Stratus is a good match for the HD800. You can roll all sorts of 2A3s to get the sound you want too. My favorite is the more solid-state sounding EML Meshes for a taut bass. Many others I have observed prefer the bloomier big tubes Shuguangs.
WA22 doesn't quite sound as good as the above.
Rag is interesting in that its smooth treble and technicalities are unsurpassed for a solid-state amp, this is good for HD800, but tonally Rag is lean in the bass with the HD800. One solution may be to add resisters in series to artificially bump up the Rag's 0 output impedance.
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I'd use a Magni 2 Uber over the WA22 anyday. There is like only person who hypes that thing because it's one of the few amps he's owned or listened to. Some Canadian with a black belt or something. Remove the WA22 from consideration. Heck you'd be better off with a WA6 than that thing.
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Or the Valhalla 2. Stock tubes are very good. Some of the 6922 type NOS can give some improvement. But I wouldn't spend a lot, especially if you are going to be upgrading.
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Is the gap between the Vali and the Valhalla 2 considerable? Factoring in that it's going to be a stopgap.
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There is like only person who hypes that thing because it's one of the few amps he's owned or listened to. Some Canadian with a black belt or something.
LOL. So bad...
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Is the gap between the Vali and the Valhalla 2 considerable? Factoring in that it's going to be a stopgap.
Considerable.
Also, keep in mind that Valhalla 2 tends to be more solid-state sounding than most people expect. It is not warm and gooey. It's resolving and clear sounding. There are at least two people I know who reverted back to Valhalla 1 because of that.
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Considerable.
Also, keep in mind that Valhalla 2 tends to be more solid-state sounding than most people expect. It is not warm and gooey. It's resolving and clear sounding. There are at least two people I know who reverted back to Valhalla 1 because of that.
True with stock tubes for sure. Some Amperex 6DJ8's can bring some tube warmness back, but not too much gooey.
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The V2 is quite better than the Vali and the Magni 2 uber imo. I miss having the V2 around, after I had to send it back to my friend. Purrin is spot on when he says that the V2 is somewhat solid-state sounding with the stock tubes. The V2 sounds more like the magn 2 uber than the vali, based off of memory.
^impressions based on hd600, gungnir, parasound d/ac-1100 and using the amps as a preamp for the audioengine A2s.
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Very interesting, for my purposes as a stopgap, I think I will go for the Vali then. My HD800s are unmodded so if the Val2 is like the Magni2U, it might be too hard in the treble for me
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I'd use a Magni 2 Uber over the WA22 anyday. There is like only person who hypes that thing because it's one of the few amps he's owned or listened to. Some Canadian with a black belt or something. Remove the WA22 from consideration. Heck you'd be better off with a WA6 than that thing.
Ok , wa22 is out lol
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I'm taking a similar path to EraserXIV. Will be buying the Valhalla 2 with the intention of upgrading in the future. While this might cost me more in the long run, it will take me a couple of years to save enough for an EC or DNA amp. In the meantime, I am buying experience.
Have a question about tube rolling in the Valhalla 2 that I also pasted on another forum. I figured the ratio of experts to novices would be more in my favour amongst the Pyrates, so will also post here:
Approached Schiit to determine if 6N30P can be used in place of 6N6P. They responded very swiftly to the effect that they don't have much experience with tubes other than stock with Valhalla 2.
They kindly volunteered the following information though:
***The output tube on V2 is biased by a CCS (constant current source) feeding approx 6mA to the 6N6P anode with a plate voltage of about 100V.*** (my rewording)
I am guessing that the plate voltage of the output tube in this circuit is determined by the input tube (not sure - a little rusty).
Therefore, assuming that the anode current would remain 6mA on the 6N30P and the anode voltage 100V, perhaps someone with more knowledge than me could find a datasheet for this tube and determine whether or not it is operating at a suitably linear point.
My guess is that the circuit is optimised for 6N6P and, given that the curves are different, will not function as well with 6N30P in output position.
Please set me straight if my thinking is wrong. I was considering investing in some 6N30P-DR tubes (for use in the DNA Sonett 2 at a later stage), but I doubt that V2 would see any benefit in using this type of tube.
Thanks
Nathan
Not the output tube bias. That's input tube bias. Output's about 35mA, set by a resistor. About 100V on each output tube (stacked) on a 200V supply.
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True with stock tubes for sure. Some Amperex 6DJ8's can bring some tube warmness back, but not too much gooey.
Yes, Amperex good tubes with some warmth. 7308 for warmer and rolled.
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Jason any plans for a Vali 2 with updated chassis and preamp outs?
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Please set me straight if my thinking is wrong. I was considering investing in some 6N30P-DR tubes (for use in the DNA Sonett 2 at a later stage), but I doubt that V2 would see any benefit in using this type of tube.
Nathan,
the 6N30P is too different from 6N6P (needs higher heater current, etc). Hardly compatible.
It's better to roll the input tubes - they will have much bigger effect on the sound.
I've got excellent results with NOS Amperex 6922 + HD800.
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walk the plank2
This is me walking the plank. I have been suffering from depression and can't take judgement at the moment. Mod, please cancel my account.
Down to Davey's Locker I go :&
Nathan
Don't sweat it dude, I too was wondering about tubes for Val2 :)
I have some hours on the Val2 now and I completely agree that it sound solid state like, only with some added warmth and very nice soundstage. The synergy with HD800 is really great! I was thinking about changing the tubes with some budget option and did some research. Ended up buying a pair of 60's Foton 6N6P and some 70's Reflector (I think) 6N23P-EV.
The Fotons arrived and after some 10 hours I noticed some subtle yet noticeable improvement. There's slight fuller lower midrange/upper bass, and the sound kinda tightened up. Really worthwhile upgrade for some cheap output tubes. Will post update when the Reflectors arrive, but overall I'm digging the Val2 sound.
(I can move this post to the Val2 thread if it clutters this thread)
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Rag is interesting in that its smooth treble and technicalities are unsurpassed for a solid-state amp, this is good for HD800, but tonally Rag is lean in the bass with the HD800. One solution may be to add resisters in series to artificially bump up the Rag's 0 output impedance.
Huh, I wonder if it's possible to make the rag with two different balanced output. One with low output impedance for orthos etc, and another with high for Sennheiser/Beyers etc.
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Huh, I wonder if it's possible to make the rag with two different balanced output. One with low output impedance for orthos etc, and another with high for Sennheiser/Beyers etc.
Better to just stick a resistor in the path if you want that high output impedance.
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Maybe I should wire up an HD800 high impedance adapter and sell it.
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Don't forget the ferrite beads.
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Maybe I should wire up an HD800 high impedance adapter and sell it.
I'm surprised that nobody is making high z adapters yet, i guess it's still too DIY-ey. But that is a good idea, just from a listener's point of view - it would be useful to have a range of different impedance adapters to see how it changes your FR.
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Maybe I should wire up an HD800 high impedance adapter and sell it.
As someone who owns a Rag, I'd really like to try this (i.e. I'd buy it)...You've talked about this for some time now, but as an audio n00b, I have no idea where to start. I can't imagine it's actually that difficult, but my lack of knowledge is an obstacle. :-[
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As someone who owns a Rag, I'd really like to try this (i.e. I'd buy it)...You've talked about this for some time now, but as an audio n00b, I have no idea where to start. I can't imagine it's actually that difficult, but my lack of knowledge is an obstacle. :-[
I would buy too!
Marvey, that would be a good way to make some money with changstar. Probably more than your amazon links :P
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Oh someone had this idea before:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed (http://www.head-fi.org/t/601669/impedance-adapters-cables-explained-listed)
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Well, I don't have an HD800, but you guys weren't fucking around regarding the Valhalla 2. Seriously good shit with my HD650. Got it to try, minimal risk and all with the return policy, but instead am going to sell non-headphones to make it fit financially. I was expecting it to be brighter, sharper, too detailed (I guess), or more aggressive than it is based on what some have said, but it really hits that sweet spot in most ways.
Wondering what other tubes can bring to the table...Before I got it, I was thinking I might want warmer sounding tubes, but I'm honestly pretty happy with the presentation of the stock tubes.
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Well, I don't have an HD800, but you guys weren't fucking around regarding the Valhalla 2. Seriously good shit with my HD650. Got it to try, minimal risk and all with the return policy, but instead am going to sell non-headphones to make it fit financially. I was expecting it to be brighter, sharper, too detailed (I guess), or more aggressive than it is based on what some have said, but it really hits that sweet spot in most ways.
Wondering what other tubes can bring to the table...Before I got it, I was thinking I might want warmer sounding tubes, but I'm honestly pretty happy with the presentation of the stock tubes.
Yeah, Val2 is still on the warm side of the spectrum in my book. Nature of OTL maybe
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Yeah, perhaps. I'm pretty new to tube amps of any kind. Anyone have particular tube recommendations for it? I've seen the Amperex 6922s mentioned a lot, and Marv mentioned the Telefunken 7DJ8 once. I'm pretty satisfied with the stock Val2's level of warmth and general tone, so I wouldn't want it to deviate too much from that. I'd primarily be interested in more low-bass slam, keeping the low and clean and detailed, and a larger, more 3D soundstage. Maybe more dynamics/liveliness. An increase in resolution or a hair of extra/sharper treble over stock wouldn't hurt either, though I'd like to maintain the smooth, liquid nature that makes it easy to listen to. Hopefully there are options that work well with most good headphones in case I were to ever get the HD800 but still used the HD650 along with it.
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Best tubes I heard in the ECC88/6DJ8/6922 family are the E188CC/7308 "Laradiotechnique" . unmatched clarity and openness. Real 3D feeling. I still dream of this tube.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/759073/rare-1967-rtc-la-radiotechnique-e188cc-lyr-end-game-tube for example
Those tubes are insanely expensive though. We're sometimes fortunate enough to find theses at better prices locally here in France.
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I've been quite content with the Mjolnir driving my HD800 for some time. Have just pulled the trigger on the Ragnarok as I plan on acquiring Kef LS50 speakers.
My chain will be MBP with Audirvana+ 2.0.9 > NAD M51 > Ragnarok >Draug v2 > HD800/HD650.
This Schiit better be good.
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You should be very pleased with Rag!
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Bass is overall leaner and cleaner on the rag with HD800 compared to Mojo, but highs are more refined. Add resistor in series with HD800 if you want more bass.
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The MJ's bass rendition is my favourite aspect of its presentation. I love the weight and impact of it. My least favourite aspect is the shape of the soundstage. There's good space in terms of width but that often serves to accentuate the compressed centre stage. I want more space out front, or a greater sense of depth. The impressions I've read points to the Ragnarok addressing this minor gripe.
Have you guys heard the Rag driving Kef LS50's?
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The MJ's bass rendition is my favourite aspect of its presentation. I love the weight and impact of it. My least favourite aspect is the shape of the soundstage. There's good space in terms of width but that often serves to accentuate the compressed centre stage. I want more space out front, or a greater sense of depth. The impressions I've read points to the Ragnarok addressing this minor gripe.
Have you guys heard the Rag driving Kef LS50's?
I haven't personally heard it, but someone over on HF was raving about it a few months ago.
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I heard the Cavalli Liquid Glass at the SoCal CanJam and I loved how it paired with the HD800 (I'm guessing those were stock tubes?). I'm now wanting a tubey sound but I'm wanting to just stick my toe in the water instead of going for a $3-4k model. I have the Schiit Vali, but I find it to be lacking in the the amount of power and slam and sound compared to the Glass. I also have a Rag, but I find that it really doesn't fill out the low end the way the Glass did. I think I've fallen in love with the tubey sound. Any recommendations in the $300-700 price range? Or is that just nearly impossible?
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Doc:
Check out the Valhalla 2, The BH Crack with speedball and Project Ember in that price range.
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You can also try adding resistance in the signal path to your Rag like Marv has suggested in the past.
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You can also try adding resistance in the signal path to your Rag like Marv has suggested in the past.
As a software guy and not so much of a hardware guy, I'd love to try this, but I wouldn't know the first thing about how to set this up. And from googling, there aren't really any 4-pin impedance adapters prebuilt that I can find, but it is a tough thing to google for. Thanks for the suggestion though.
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It is very easy to make yourself and a good way to learn a new skill like soldering. Get the proper tools, like a soldering iron with a small standard or a station, wirestrippers and a decent multimeter. Then you get some 3 strand or 2 strand with a shield cable, a stereo trs jack and counter trs jack(neutrik is good) which you can plug your headphones into and some resistors of various values, like 20/40/60/80/100/120 ohms. Make sure to get more then 2 of each resistor, 5 or 6 should do imo. Since there are always variances between them, you can use your multimeter to see which ones match each other. You need one for the left and one for the right channel.
Connect them in series with the signal wires so inside the plug you solder one resistor to the tab that connects to the tip and then the wire to the other end of the resistor. You do the same for the first ring after the tip and then you connect the third wire(or shield) which is ground straight to the shell. You do the same on the other end of the cable on the counter plug. Make sure there are no shorts between left/right and ground by using your meter and you should be good to go. You can try the various resistors to tune the bass to you liking, the higher the resistance the more bass you get.
Good luck!
Edit: Just saw you wanted a 4 pin, same deal only connect a resistor to 3 which is Right, and the ground from right to 4 and the resistor for left goes to 1 and the right ground goes to 2. For this you should you use 4 wire cable.
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Or you can get the Hifiman HE-adapter prebuilt for $99 if you really don't want to make one yourself.
I'm a DIY guy, but going down that path is a bit of a dark side of the hobby. Oh yeah sure you start off with just a soldering iron and a few tools. Then you start accumulating parts and projects and it begins to take over a corner of the basement. What should have been a $30 project winds up with... a lot more than $30 at the end of the day.
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Thanks Riotvan and Armaegis. I don't quite have the time yet to go down that slippery slope, but man does it call to me. Maybe it'll just win :)
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Question...I notice the HD800 is pretty laid back in the mids, but forward in the treble. Do these amps mostly just "smooth out" the treble, without bringing up the mids? I'm finding the laid back mids are something I really like about the HD800. It's noticeably quieter on heavy metal tracks (cymbals aside) than classical or even female vocals.
Been listening to the HD800 on the HAP-S1's headphone output. Not amazing by any means and extremely dry but zero sibilance that I've heard described with most solid state amps.
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So, what will the Valhalla2 give me over the Asgard2 for the HD800 specifically?
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imo better macro/microdynamics, better driven bass with guts and kick, and a bit wider soundstage. The potential "annoying" treble will stay though, just not with the same grain (not saying the Asgard is grainy but somehow I find the highs with Valhalla "cleaner"). The Valhalla 2 is thoroughly getting overlooked due to the well-deserved popularity of the Vali.
Anyway, thx to Marv for the this great list.
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What Golmang said.
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Sounds nice. Is there any reason to choose the Vali over the Valhalla 2 besides cost?
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The Vali is less powerful with high Z, definitely less neutral with a romantic touch as in slightly warmer/sweeter. It has its own appeal but other than the signature there's nothing it does better.
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Got my Ragnarok in today. Only slumming it with the HD650 atm as I sold my balanced Q cable for the HD800 and am awaiting a Draug v2.
So the HD650 from the Rok's balanced out? Magnificent. You guys weren't embellishing when talking about this amp's ability to render plankton and the awesome micro dynamic shifts. This is sublime. I've sat here with a stupid grin for the past hour. Can't wait to hear the HD800 from this beast.
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Awesome. Yea, it's quite an amp; listening to mine right now with my HD800's and a custom DAC. It's proven to be an incredible tools for tuning DAC's, as it's capable of illuminating the most subtle weaknesses.
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Damn, I am still waiting for my Rag to ship hopelessly from the second batch to power both my headphone and speakers. :)p18
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Bass is overall leaner and cleaner on the rag with HD800 compared to Mojo, but highs are more refined. Add resistor in series with HD800 if you want more bass.
Not sure if you were trying to temper expectations here Marv, or if your recollection of the Mjolnir's bass is vague, but the low end I'm hearing from the Ragnarok and HD800 is spectacularly thunderous when called for.
I very much doubted this amp would live up to all the plaudits but God damn has it smashed my measured expectations.
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The key is "when called for". Mjolnir seems to be in a state where bass is always quite hefty. Rag bass is more reserved, until it's called for.
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@Purr1n : Is the EC 2A3 mkII still in production ?
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Yes. Latest version has same Cinemag OPTs transformers as the 4-45 (2A3 has same plate resistance as 2x45 in parallel), but coupled with cap. 5842 driver tube.
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That's good news to read . hope it will last until I can save the money and take a decision for my end game amp. :)p13
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Hi people,
Is anyone here familiar with Apex Peak with the HD800?
http://www.apexhifi.com/Peak.htm
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Hi people,
Is anyone here familiar with Apex Peak with the HD800?
http://www.apexhifi.com/Peak.htm
Regards,
Jeremiah
Heard it at a meet, it really all comes down to your tube. Good tubes are essential. I heard my HD 800's with a NOS Sylvannia 6sn7GT, amazing resolution and detail.
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@purrin
I remember reading somewhere that you left headphones for speakers. Mind sharing what they are?
Having sold off all of my earphones, i was thinking of going into headphones, but i recently heard the Franco Serblin's Accordo's and god damn. I dont think ive heard a headphone that can beat those. Tbf, they have usually been powered with shit amps and source. But the difference was night and day tbh.
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@purrin
I remember reading somewhere that you left headphones for speakers. Mind sharing what they are?
Having sold off all of my earphones, i was thinking of going into headphones, but i recently heard the Franco Serblin's Accordo's and god damn. I dont think ive heard a headphone that can beat those. Tbf, they have usually been powered with shit amps and source. But the difference was night and day tbh.
I'll let him give you the details, but if you go to the speakers forum on changstar, you can see the custom designed speakers that he uses.
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Thanks mate.
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ahoy Hey guys, I'm looking at a very attractively-priced EC 2a3 Mk 4, though it's the older version with Hammond output iron. How does it compare to the current production model, if anyone has heard both with the HD 800s.
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2 or 3 hours of listening with TotalDAC A1 + Audio GD HE-9 + HD800 (unmoded).. Thus far , I find the result is extremely good. Best Solid state amp I heard with My HD800 thus far and it outperforms the Sonett Hands down. Precise, Ballzy with really great fast ,extended and punchy bass. Surprinsingly smooth Treble ( the totalDAC is a NOS R2R dac but a FIR filter compensate the Treble roll-off so it's not dark ). What's the most impressive is the expanded , deep realistic soundstage. Never heard that from another Solid State amp who usually offer most of the time a left/right presentation wit lack of depth. Obviously the HE-9 is on the warm side.
I thought that this amp will benefit more to the HE-6 but in fact that's the HD800 that improves the most. Stock HE-6 treble Harshness is more emphasized than with my cheap Speaker T-amp . I didn't expect that p:8
Maybe my impressions will change after more days of use but thus far it seems this HE-9 is an amp I could live with forever. p:3 ..
One hypothesis is that the DAC could be unleashed by the HE-9 so I an hear more what the totaldac is capable of.... I'll try with another dac and see if the HE-9 is revealing of the source and if the sound will change signifiantly
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Thanks Sorrodje, i have always wondered if these are actually any good with HD800.
Dare to guess how the HE9 compares to the EC amp you heard a while ago?
The depth of field can easily be dac related.
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ahoy Hey guys, I'm looking at a very attractively-priced EC 2a3 Mk 4, though it's the older version with Hammond output iron. How does it compare to the current production model, if anyone has heard both with the HD 800s.
Twice the power, but slightly behind in 4-45 in resolution, but perhaps warmer tone better suited to HD800s. Also much better selection of tubes with 2A3. The current production mk4 uses Cinemag OPTs and it is slightly better. Unfortunately, EC does not offer upgrades. Also warranty / support can be transferred for $100.
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Is there anything the Asgard2 does better than the Valhalla2 for the HD800? I'm on the verge of buying one from another Head-Fi'er, and am wondering if I will lose anything I value in audio.
For what it's worth, I value soundstage size and lower midrange the most. Because of a slight mid-upper bass emphasis and a slight recession in the presence region around 2-3khz, the midrange of the HD800 sounds warm to me. I'd want to make it even warmer.
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Is there anything the Asgard2 does better than the Valhalla2 for the HD800? I'm on the verge of buying one from another Head-Fi'er, and am wondering if I will lose anything I value in audio.
For what it's worth, I value soundstage size and lower midrange the most. Because of a slight mid-upper bass emphasis and a slight recession in the presence region around 2-3khz, the midrange of the HD800 sounds warm to me. I'd want to make it even warmer.
I think valhalla will be better for your taste
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Thanks Sorrodje, i have always wondered if these are actually any good with HD800.
Dare to guess how the HE9 compares to the EC amp you heard a while ago?
The depth of field can easily be dac related.
You nailed it ... " a while ago" .. I heard the Balancing Act a year ago and briefly the 4-45 6 month ago. Nothing enough close to my current try fo the HE-9 to have any valuable opinion. I just feel than as good, clean and beefy the HE-9 can be , it can not reach what best tubes amp offer. Tubes are maybe less perfect but more true to life. I always felt this. Maybe i'm wrong and it's only personal bias when my eyes are fixed on glowing tubes. I'm pretty convinced that this HE-9 si not as transparent and clear as EC amps. As many people stated before, EC amps offer a very special magic . Everything sounds more "grand".
If someone could give me impressions between a Master 9 and a DNA Stratus, I'd be really interested ;)
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I think you are not wrong at all. I have little exp with tubes and that is already enough (minus Leben).
No idea how Pinnacle compares to EC stuff, but this thing made me believe in all the rant that has been going on about SET-s.
The downside to that experience was my d-s dac, i hope to correct that soon.
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If you have a neutral DAC like yggy, and the Valhalla 2 for the HD800, and you find it to be just a tiny bit too "neutral". What would be a good upgrade/sidegrade?
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You could anax mod your HD800 for a cheaper and reversible alternative.
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You could anax mod your HD800 for a cheaper and reversible alternative.
I know, it was more a question out of curiosity :)p14
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I know, it was more a question out of curiosity :)p14
Question for who ?
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Question for who ?
Just wanted to know: If I wanted to try something different when funds allow it, what would would be an upgrade from the Valhalla? 2A3 EC, Crimson, Glass, Stratus etc.
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Maybe my impressions will change after more days of use but thus far it seems this HE-9 is an amp I could live with forever. p:3 ..
Some change indeed. The result is still good. Very good but it seems I hear something a bit synthetic in the overall Tone. My Sonett is obviously a bit more bloomy but there's something more refined, more natural , less synthetic.
I first thought my Sonett was blown away but I'm not so convinced. HE-9 Bass are obviously better , faster , stronger ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAjR4_CbPpQ&list=RDgAjR4_CbPpQ#t=8
and overally the big Audio-GD is faster. What is really good is the mix of power, smoothness ( onctuosité in french : unctuosity ? ) , and speed with a great soundstage for a Solid State amp. But... something remains wrong in the tone or in timbres. it's not brightness but a kind of synthetic edge ?
Despite the bloom, The sonett seems to provide a bit more clarity and finesse. THe HE-9 is impressive at the first time but finally I should eat my words and admit that I would maybe not live with it . Maybe, maybe not.. Jury's still out.
Dunno if that makes sense for some of you. Maybe I'm crazy.
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Did anyone have some experience with the Audio-GD Master 9 against other Solid-State contenders and best Tube amps ?
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Just wanted to know: If I wanted to try something different when funds allow it, what would would be an upgrade from the Valhalla? 2A3 EC, Crimson, Glass, Stratus etc.
Yes
Did anyone have some experience with the Audio-GD Master 9 against other Solid-State contenders and best Tube amps ?
The fact that the AGD9 didn't knock out the Sonnet and is even a lesser amp is af few important areas, it seems the M9 is not a ToTL HD800 amp. Get a BW or Studio for the 800.
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Is the BW really ToTL territory for HD800?
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Is the BW really ToTL territory for HD800?
How many ToTL solid state amps do you know for the HD800? I know the Ragnarok and BW+PS (power supply), that's it. Neither are quite ToTL SET level if that's what you mean.
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Ragnarok has established itself, very little has been written about the BW and i can't find anything about topology.
I assume Marv has been modest about it then?
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Ragnarok has established itself, very little has been written about the BW and i can't find anything about topology.
I assume Marv has been modest about it then?
Yes. The topology is ludicrous, as in Spaceballs Ludicrous.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygE01sOhzz0)
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Yes
The fact that the AGD9 didn't knock out the Sonnet and is even a lesser amp is af few important areas, it seems the M9 is not a ToTL HD800 amp. Get a BW or Studio for the 800.
Any personal experience to share about the M9 or the HE-9 please?
Indeed, My ears tell me there 're some points where the Sonett is not knocked out but overally I can assume the HE-9 does many things better with the HD800 in my opinion. Studio is out of my price bracket. the BW could be more affordable though. Maybe one day I'll have the opportunity to give it a listen. :)
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Any personal experience to share about the M9 or the HE-9 please?
Indeed, My ears tell me there 're some points where the Sonett is not knocked out but overally I can assume the HE-9 does many things better with the HD800 in my opinion. Studio is out of my price bracket. the BW could be more affordable though. Maybe one day I'll have the opportunity to give it a listen. :)
I was referring to your Personal Experience. The ToTL amps simply are no comparison to the Sonnet. So if the M9 is still in the comparison then obviously forget about it. Or just get the BW+PS to compare with the M9 and go from there. You've been holding back your HD800 for long enough, stop sidegrading.
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Does the newer production 2A3mk4 with the Cinemags (as opposed to the previous run with Hammonds), capture a bit more of the Studio magic than the Hammonds did?
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The Cinemags are better than the Hammonds.
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Wise advice indeed.
Sincerely my first and main feeling is definitely that the HE-9 punch way above the Sonett and this afternoon my opinion changed for some points (finesse mostly) . That just probably say I should shut up and wait my opinion to be stabilized.
I'm not as experienced ( only 3 years in this hobby) as you or many other people here so I always have doubt on my own feelings , that's why I plugged the Sonett today but in my mind, the sonett is already sold. But I know it's easy for me to fool myself. facepalm .
My doubts explain why I ask you some impressions. I'm still in apprenticeship
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You have good ears and know what you are listening for. We have similar priorities so that should help. I look forward to your Ah-Hah!! moment in the not too distant future.
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You have good ears and know what you are listening for. We have similar priorities so that should help. I look forward to your Ah-Hah!! moment in the not too distant future.
I hope you'll not be there during my next orgasm though . p:8
BTW my main problem is that my heart swings between solid state and tubes and I would like to have something that keep the best of the two. facepalm
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You do want a new amp. We know it. Let the dark side flow through you :)p8
Ali
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my main problem is that my heart swings between solid state and tubes and I would like to have something that keep the best of the two. facepalm
BW+PS. That's as close as tubes+SS gets in sonics.
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Or Crimson?
Crimson vs Ragnarok vs BW comparison anyone? popcorn
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Or Crimson?
Crimson vs Ragnarok vs BW comparison anyone? popcorn
Crimson is hybrid with 6922 driver tube right?
Perhaps Carbon is the more appropriate comparison here.
I don't think anybody got a chance to steal borrow the Carbon from Jude's table for comparison.
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BTW my main problem is that my heart swings between solid state and tubes and I would like to have something that keep the best of the two.
That sounds very much like the EC house sound. Not many can pull it off, but from what I heard and own, EC amps walk that tightrope between tube and SS beautifully.
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BW+PS. That's as close as tubes+SS gets in sonics.
I saw it indeed. As usual, I'm just waiting some water flows under the bridge . Hope you'll see no offense there but i'm a bit reluctant to be an early adopter without any chance to try myself. I just have to decide during the next month if this HE-9 stays at home or not. Depend on many things but for sure, listening to my music is really really more than enjoyable with the TotalDAC/HE-9/HD800 system.
First world problem . :)p13
It would be easier if I lived in SF. all of you guys have all the gear I would like to hear to make my own opinion easily :wheel:
@ericfarrell85. I'm afraid you're right and I'm afraid I'll need a lot of time to purchase a brand new Balancing Act.. Not to mention the new studio for exemple. Endless quest. facepalm
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That sounds very much like the EC house sound. Not many can pull it off, but from what I heard and own, EC amps walk that tightrope between tube and SS beautifully.
Crimson is probably as much tube hassle i can take.
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You should get an Yggy first.
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You should get an Yggy first.
who ?
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who ?
You. If you are using a TotalDAC. I think ZD commented he thought the GO v.2 was even better than the unmodded TransDAC.
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You. If you are using a TotalDAC. I think ZD commented he thought the GO v.2 was even better than the unmodded TransDAC.
Dunno if the transdac is better ot not than the TotalDAC. Unlike 6moons said, the totaldac blows IMHO the metrum octave though. Fortunately, I grabbed the A1 for a much lower price than what was asked a few years ago so I'm not disappointed at all. in my current System (Totaldac/Sonett/HD800) ,the DAC push, the amp brakes.. that's my feeling. So, my plan is to upgrade the amp first. With a Stax SR404/SRM1-mKII , I could hear much more the benefits of the totaldac than with the Sonett. With the HE-9 , my DAC breathes much more too.
So, amp upgrade first then I'll save the money and i'll compare the Yggy and my Totaldac. If I can hear even the smallest step-up, the totaldac will go. Yggy offers so much more features. Once I'll choose the dac, then I'll consider the end game amp... in many years though ! .. i enjoy slow journeys.
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What is there common between TransDac and TotalDac?
It is possible that Sorro's dac is very good, probably not Ygg good though.
I have read good things about TotalDac-s, not only from Head-fi.
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@Priidik : totaldac is a Pure R2R ladder dac made of discrete parts. Vishay foil resistors. Marv's seems highly doubtful about the real ability of this tech to reach anything close to what of the Yggy is capable of. Dunno myself but I'll surely have opportunities to make my own opinion . We have a good relationship with the Schitt french dealer. So maybe , I'll can grab a loaner before the end of the year and have de discount if I want to keep it :)p8
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OK. More listening last night and this afternoon here. the HE-9 will go. I miss clarity and transparency and I can't get rid of this feeling that there's something synthetic in timbres.
So i'll eat my words one more time and i'll go to the BW+PSU route and i'll continue to save money for a DNA Stratus. popcorn
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purrin,
Did you have a chance to try the LC with the HD800? Still prefer the LG listed on the first page of the thread?
I'm looking for an amp upgrade to pair with my Yggy and considering my WTB: L-2 on HF has been up over a year I'm not holding my breath on one of those to manifest. I might try a Val2 in the meantime. I'm leaning towards something fully balanced and prefer tubes but I may give the Rag a shot.
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Liquid Crimson was fine with HD800 and my personal preference over LG. LG is more laid back. Greed owned an LG and HD800 (SAA mod which is like 5% of an Anax mod, but for $1200 more dollars.) Might want to ask him.
Get the best amp you can get and don't worry about balanced for not.
Great Balanced > Great SE >>> Merely Good Balanced > Merely Good SE >>> Mediocre Balanced >= Mediocre SE.
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Get the best amp you can get and don't worry about balanced for not.
Good advice. Appreciate the feedback.
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OK. More listening last night and this afternoon here. the HE-9 will go. I miss clarity and transparency and I can't get rid of this feeling that there's something synthetic in timbres.
So i'll eat my words one more time and i'll go to the BW+PSU route and i'll continue to save money for a DNA Stratus. popcorn
Yup. I did not miss it either. One of the better solid states, and in some ways I preferred it to the Moon 430HA or Ragnarok. The drawbacks: One of the reasons is the colourations it has. One notch too warm for me and that bass while a lot of fun, is probably unrealistic. This affects transparency as it imposes too much of its character over the source. Hence it did not move me. The EC 2A3MK4 does. I've not heard the Stratus yet - here's an idea. Bring yours to CanJam London (if you get one by then)! I'll likely bring my EC.
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Did anyone have some experience with the Audio-GD Master 9 against other Solid-State contenders and best Tube amps ?
Hi,
I may be of assistance as a colleague has a Master 9 & Master 7 stack for his Audez'e LCD-3.
With the HD800 I do not think this is a good pairing. Master 9 has a cold tonality, something like the HeadAmp GS-X 2. It also has a tendency to sound thin and missing information in high harmonics.
Compared to other high-end SS amps pairing with the HD800, I feel it's slightly below the GS-X 2 and AURALiC Taurus and far from the real good amps like the AMB Beta 22 (DIY), or the Japanese-made MASS-kobo or Luxman offerings.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Didn't Kingwa go for the more neutral colder side of things with the master series? I mean i'm still listening to a phoenix although i tweaked the bias by lowering it a bit below stock to make it a tiny bit darker and made sure all 4 amps are matched exactly. That last bit is very important IME. To give a bit of reference compared to my modded crack, i prefer the phoenix noticeably. It's just as smooth but tighter and more plankton.
Some changes i made to the crack are speedball upgrade, film oil output caps, 41 steps attenuator, russian military tube socket for the input tube, tubes used are GEC 6AS7G Brown base and various tungsram, GE and mullard input tubes.
But source is most important though, if you fuck that up the phoenix sounds bland and the crack is more enjoyable.
My setup right now is: MF V-link 192+squeezeupgrade usb psu>Violectric V800>Phoenix>120Ohm impedance adapter>HD800 without mods(this one doesn't have much of a 6k peak, 27k range on s/n). Cables are diy sommer cable.
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Hi Riotvan,
Good point about the bias. The unit I tried is stock so perhaps it can be improved if one tweaks around with the setting.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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It's very worthwhile you just have to contact them i guess so you know where the pots are and where to measure. Also knowing the default setting is a good starting point. I did have a look at their pics and i couldn't find the pots, perhaps they were obscured from view.
Maybe this one is auto bias? Or is that a tube only thing? If you do find the info though make sure the amp is fully warmed up before adjusting the bias. Also try using something non conductive to adjust the screws, not that it's needed but if you fuck up and drop your screwdriver it's not gonna be pleasant.
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Hi Riotvan,
After informing about your bias setting, my friend plans to send his Master 9 back to China to be retuned by Kingwa and also to fix about grounding issues. He also mentioned that Kingwa sets the bias at moderate level to ensure cool operating temperature but he can raise it if the customer wants, which should improve neutrality and detail retrieval.
I'm looking forward to hear the retuned version because I feel that the Master 9 is a great value. It's slightly below GS-X MK2 but it's half the price.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Can anyone comment on the HDVA 600 vs Ragnarok?
In Australia Ragnarok is about double the price of the HDVA 600, but I suspect they are not entirely on different levels for the HD 800?
Had a brief listen on both in stores at different locations, and while both sounded good, different sources (Yggy vs HDVD800...) and quick informal listen made comparison difficult.
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I've A/B'd the Rag and the HDVA 800 in a quiet environment with the same source (Gungnir at the time, and also tested the HDVA's internal DAC).
Using Gungnir: Very close in presentation and overall sound quality. More similar than different - However, the Rag being slightly smoother/cleaner. Very little difference in bass body...close enough to call it a draw. Rag maybe had a slight edge in extension. To my ear, the Rag was marginally more natural sounding in terms of timbre, but the HDVA wasn't bad or offensive. It's purely speculative, but I suspect the Rag might scale more. With Yggy, the Rag becomes a different animal...not sure how the HDVA would fair comparatively with a highly resolving DAC. Overall, the HDVA faired better than I thought it would. For a reasonable price, it seemed like a worthy solid state option, especially if using a decent mid-tier DAC.
Not a direct part of your question, given you're asking about the HDVA 600, but I didn't care for the HDVA 800's internal DAC. Some harshness/hash was definitely present in the treble (sabre?poo)...best avoided IMO.
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Overall, the HDVA faired better than I thought it would. For a reasonable price, it seemed like a worthy solid state option, especially if using a decent mid-tier DAC.
But isn't the HDVA600 and 800 $1500 and $2300 MSRP respectively?
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It depends on your neighborhood. Rag is 1890€ vs HDVA600 1100€ here. No idea about the Australian market.
I sold my HDVA in search of better dynamics. It lacks a bit of macro-dynamics for my tastes. Pinnacle and Sansui integrated (this one feels even too dynamic) fare better in this regard. I'd hope the Ragnarok does too.
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It depends on your neighborhood. Rag is 1890€ vs HDVA600 1100€ here. No idea about the Australian market.
I sold my HDVA in search of better dynamics. It lacks a bit of macro-dynamics for my tastes. Pinnacle and Sansui integrated (this one feels even too dynamic) fare better in this regard. I'd hope the Ragnarok does too.
Fair point.
Yes they do.
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It depends on your neighborhood. Rag is 1890€ vs HDVA600 1100€ here. No idea about the Australian market.
At the moment we have hdva for $1400 aud and rag for just under $3000.
Money no object I would suspect rag would win but sadly not the case. Will audition more closely though I hope.
Thanks for the comments guys.
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Hi Riotvan,
After informing about your bias setting, my friend plans to send his Master 9 back to China to be retuned by Kingwa and also to fix about grounding issues. He also mentioned that Kingwa sets the bias at moderate level to ensure cool operating temperature but he can raise it if the customer wants, which should improve neutrality and detail retrieval.
I'm looking forward to hear the retuned version because I feel that the Master 9 is a great value. It's slightly below GS-X MK2 but it's half the price.
Regards,
Jeremiah
Good luck, shame it is not user adjustable but seeing how it has to go back for repairs anyway. Let us know how it turns out.
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I seriously can't imagine in what way either Sennheiser amp could best the Ragnarok via XLR output. Maybe soundstage depth and bass presence depending on the phone. You have to be using the Rag SE to even be close or better than the Rag. Someone will have to provide a detailed comparison for me to believe that.
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I seriously can't imagine in what way either Sennheiser amp could best the Ragnarok via XLR output. Maybe soundstage depth and bass presence depending on the phone. You have to be using the Rag SE to even be close or better than the Rag. Someone will have to provide a detailed comparison for me to believe that.
In my time spend comparing the two amps, both using their respective XLR outs, there was no aspect of the HVDA that was better than the Rag. None. My comment about the HDVA being a potentially reasonable choice for the price had to do with the Likearake's statement, "In Australia Ragnarok is about double the price of the HDVA 600". In that light, if one didn't have a reference level DAC (and didn't have plans to purchase one), was on a limited budget, and didn't need to drive anything other than a Hi-Z headphone, the HDVA struck me as worthy of consideration. Not much to say beyond that. The Rag is so much more flexible, that it still strikes me as the better long term purchase.
If I've learned anything thus far with the HD800, it's that the headphone's ability to scale makes it tough to "settle". :spank:
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In that light, if one didn't have a reference level DAC (and didn't have plans to purchase one), was on a limited budget, and didn't need to drive anything other than a Hi-Z headphone, the HDVA struck me as worthy of consideration. Not much to say beyond that. The Rag is so much more flexible, that it still strikes me as the better long term purchase.
This has been my thinking as well. I don't expect the HDVA to be better...! But my short audition made it seem surprisingly close in quality for a VERY specific choice of headphone (HD800 only). The flexibility of the Rag is something I am considering since it would mean if I change headphone preference in the future then I am still set.
I guess I am having a hard time extrapolating from the opening page list because in Australia, Sennheiser is relatively cheap while any boutique amp is virtually double price that would be applicable to Purrin.
Anax, in USD terms I am talking about $1100 for HDVA 600 vs $2350 for Rag. Would that change the value assessment, or still Rag 100%?
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This has been my thinking as well. I don't expect the HDVA to be better...! But my short audition made it seem surprisingly close in quality for a VERY specific choice of headphone (HD800 only). The flexibility of the Rag is something I am considering since it would mean if I change headphone preference in the future then I am still set.
I guess I am having a hard time extrapolating from the opening page list because in Australia, Sennheiser is relatively cheap while any boutique amp is virtually double price that would be applicable to Purrin.
Anax, in USD terms I am talking about $1100 for HDVA 600 vs $2350 for Rag. Would that change the value assessment, or still Rag 100%?
I eluded to this question above. Are you a SE or XLR user of the HD800?
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I am SE at the moment, but expect I would move to XLR to get the best out of either of those amps.
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I am SE at the moment, but expect I would move to XLR to get the best out of either of those amps.
SE is the weakness of the Ragnarok which we've mentioned a few times over various threads. It was not designed for SE output. The jack is just there as a convenience feature. With XLR, it's not a contest. But if you plan to use SE, get the Sennheiser amp.
As for price, that depends on your listening priorities, upstream chain, music pref, etc. I would try to shop around for a better deal. Your best bet is to get a balanced cable and then re-audition both amps and decide then.
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Oh I did audition balanced already. In fact the store refused to let me hear the Rag in SE and made me switch out the cable.
Thanks for the comments. I have started leaning towards saving up for the Rag since hearing it.
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Yeah, there is a premium to be paid for the higher end Schiit components in Australia. This is due to exchange rate, GST and import duties. Addicted to Audio's (Schiit Australian distributer) listed price is actually quite reasonable when you factor that in - about a $100AUD markup vs ordering from Schiit directly.
Same applies to the Yggy ($3599AUD=$2815USD), where you pay ~$150AUD markup through AA vs ordering from Schiit directly. Probably worth the extra expense though should you need to send the unit back for warranty.
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Probably worth the extra expense though should you need to send the unit back for warranty.
I think shipping from Schiit for one of these monsters is over $200 AUD. Definitely worth it to buy from A2A in my mind. Might be a different value proposition on the smaller models.
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Senn's HDVD amps are a dead-end if you ever want to upgrade source. The amps impact too much of their own sound to whatever is plugged in. This can either be a good or bad thing.
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I think shipping from Schiit for one of these monsters is over $200 AUD. Definitely worth it to buy from A2A in my mind. Might be a different value proposition on the smaller models.
Hi Tim. What dac will you be feeding into the Rag?
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Hi Tim. What dac will you be feeding into the Rag?
At the moment have a Violectric V800, but have my sights set on an Yggy eventually (or something cheaper if the technology trickles down).
That being said, maybe it will be a long time before Rag + Yggy is viable, so maybe HDVA 600 + V800 could keep me happy for some time.
I did a maths degree when I was younger, so this stuff about proprietary closed form solutions from Schiit makes me strangely excited...
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Senn amp is a no brainer with Violectric stuff. With an Yggy, you will need a Rag or BW or better tube amp to get the most out of it.
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Senn amp is a no brainer with Violectric stuff. With an Yggy, you will need a Rag or BW or better tube amp to get the most out of it.
Hmm well I guess that might be an even more difficult question. How does the BW compare to the Rag? I suspect it may end up cheaper (but not sure what future pricing will be)?
Also I apologise if my questions are too obvious, but just trying to determine the correct path to take. EC stuff I don't think could be auditioned here.
For reference I have come from an LCD-2 with Violectric stack for a few years. Recently moved onto HD800 and bought a Vali off Olor1n, which has made me very interested in moving away from the Violectric stuff for the HD800s (which I greatly prefer to the LCD2).
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........... With an Yggy, you will need a Rag or BW or better tube amp to get the most out of it.
God yes. I am listening Yggy > BH Crack (Speedball) > HD 800. And I'm going "this is ordinary sound". I do have the BW and ZD Super on order so patience is in order for now....
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Hmm well I guess that might be an even more difficult question. How does the BW compare to the Rag? I suspect it may end up cheaper (but not sure what future pricing will be)?
I'm actually looking at this comparison as well for the HD800.
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I am on the search for my endgame amp to pair up with my HD-800 and any possible future headphones (considering the LCD-XC if I can get the green light). Is it ok for me to start a new thread or is it frowned upon because it clutters up the forum? I don't want to take this thread off course. Thanks.
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I am on the search for my endgame amp to pair up with my HD-800 and any possible future headphones (considering the LCD-XC if I can get the green light). Is it ok for me to start a new thread or is it frowned upon because it clutters up the forum? I don't want to take this thread off course. Thanks.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,836.0.html is the place to go ;)
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http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,836.0.html is the place to go ;)
Perfect. Thanks for the link. I knew there was something different about this forum. Good thing I asked first.
I just posted in that thread. I am sure you will have some good advice to give on my topic. I enjoy reading your posts.
I'll have to follow that thread closely for the next few days but if another question is asked in the meantime, it can get a little mixed up. I guess it is still manageable.
Thanks again.
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Just whipped through this thread and remember reading a query for reference to a direct comparison between the Stratus and BH Mainline:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/683012/bottlehead-amplifier-discussion-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline/1035#post_11363673
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I think the list should be updated now that ZDSE has been replaced with ZD Super.
That being said, if Ragnarok is the best solid state amp for the HD800, which do you think is overall the better amp for HD800: Ragnarok or Zana Deux Super? Assuming that HD800 is your only headphone and you don't use speakers.
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ZDS for me.
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ZDS for me.
For driving the HD800, would you take the ZDS over DNA Stratus or Liquid Crimson?
Also, how does the ZDS compare to BA (with new Cinemag OPT's) in regard to sound quality and sonic signature?
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I think the list should be updated now that ZDSE has been replaced with ZD Super.
That being said, if Ragnarok is the best solid state amp for the HD800, which do you think is overall the better amp for HD800: Ragnarok or Zana Deux Super? Assuming that HD800 is your only headphone and you don't use speakers.
Isnt the ECP L2 you have kind of the holy grail for HD800?
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ZDS for me.
Made my morning...the ZDS is on its way to India...God, I hate to even think of the grubby hands customs will lay on it...but I shall use the water of the holy Ganges for purificatory rites :)p13
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Isnt the ECP L2 you have kind of the holy grail for HD800?
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1876.0.html
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Isnt the ECP L2 you have kind of the holy grail for HD800?
Who said anything about a holy grail? Besides, I don't think enough renowned pyrates and messiahs have had the opportunity to listen to it to be deservedly labelled as such. Heck, it's not even mentioned on the list, non-exhaustive as it may be.
I did say that the L-2 was by far the best amp I've heard with the HD800 to date. And I've owned/heard a lot of amps including the ZDSE. But then again, I've never heard a Cinemag OPT'd ECBA let alone an old ECBA, nor a 445 for that matter, both of which are pushed as TOTL by the Messiah and His inner circle. And I have a feeling that these two amps may sound at least good if not better than the L-2. What I find incredible about the L-2 is not only how great it sounds, but how it can deliver such a sound for an amp of such small, compact size and footprint. And it doesn't make my skin melt and peel off like the ZDSE did.
I'm just curious and eager to try out new options given the chance. The L-2 was superior to the ZDSE in every way but the new ZDS supposedly rectified the treble issues I've had with its predecessor, making it a better match with HD800. If I'm ever ordering the ZDS, I'll have the option of adding true balanced XLR inputs using Cinemag input transformers by forgoing the line outs. The L-2 does that too, in fact it only has balanced inputs albeit being a single-ended amp.
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Who said anything about a holy grail? Besides, I don't think enough renowned pyrates and messiahs have had the opportunity to listen to it to be deservedly labelled as such. Heck, it's not even mentioned on the list, non-exhaustive as it may be.
I did say that the L-2 was by far the best amp I've heard with the HD800 to date. And I've owned/heard a lot of amps including the ZDSE. But then again, I've never heard a Cinemag OPT'd ECBA let alone an old ECBA, nor a 445 for that matter, both of which are pushed as TOTL by the Messiah and His inner circle. And I have a feeling that these two amps may sound at least good if not better than the L-2. What I find incredible about the L-2 is not only how great it sounds, but how it can deliver such a sound for an amp of such small, compact size and footprint. And it doesn't make my skin melt and peel off like the ZDSE did.
I'm just curious and eager to try out new options given the chance. The L-2 was superior to the ZDSE in every way but the new ZDS supposedly rectified the treble issues I've had with its predecessor, making it a better match with HD800. If I'm ever ordering the ZDS, I'll have the option of adding true balanced XLR inputs using Cinemag input transformers by forgoing the line outs. The L-2 does that too, in fact it only has balanced inputs albeit being a single-ended amp.
Haha that was as per Tyll, i dont think the black diamond is a fair comparison as even doug does not consider the black diamond the L2's equal.
The reason its not on the list is due to the fact its unobtanium, at least from what i can gather from this thread. Most people have not heard that combination.
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Haha that was as per Tyll, i dont think the black diamond is a fair comparison as even doug does not consider the black diamond the L2's equal.
The reason its not on the list is due to the fact its unobtanium, at least from what i can gather from this thread. Most people have not heard that combination.
Well, although Tyll never officially reviewed it, he is one of the few whose opinions I trust and his raving on the amp was one of the reasons I decided to look for it. Took me over a year of searching for a seller with a kind soul in vain until I managed to get a secondhand unit in good condition.
I'm actually willing to lend this amp to Marv if he's interested in demoing it, and if he's willing to lend me a decent amp of his own in the meantime to keep me from getting bored. :)p13
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Well, although Tyll never officially reviewed it, he is one of the few whose opinions I trust and his raving on the amp was one of the reasons I decided to look for it. Took me over a year of searching for a seller with a kind soul in vain until I managed to get a secondhand unit in good condition.
I'm actually willing to lend this amp to Marv if he's interested in demoing it, and if he's willing to lend me a decent amp of his own in the meantime to keep me from getting bored. :)p13
Haha any chance you're selling it =P
Anyone here heard the Burson Virtuoso with the HD800, im quite tempted with this unit
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766093/burson-conductor-virtuoso-including-the-improved-dac-9018
Decent price =)
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Haha any chance you're selling it =P
Anyone here heard the Burson Virtuoso with the HD800, im quite tempted with this unit
http://www.head-fi.org/t/766093/burson-conductor-virtuoso-including-the-improved-dac-9018
Decent price =)
I had owned the Burson Soloist which, if I'm not mistaken, shares the same amp section as the Conductor. I don't understand how some people called it a rather warm sounding SS amp as I found it too fucking bright for HD800, and to a lesser extent TH900. It was a good match with the LCD-2 Rev.2 I had owned at the time
I never heard the Conductor but considering that the it has a bright amp section, its Sabre DAC section may only aggravate the brightness which does no good for the HD800. Just my two cents.
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I used to have Burson Soloist for about 2 years, quite like it. For me, yes, laid back and neutral with a bit on warm side, but treble had a slightly metallic tone. During the first power up till about 2-3 hrs, it's not good, so I tend to leave it on. At that time, I pair it with audio-gd ref7 (which had a slightly warm tone), so HD800, TH900, LCD-2 were good. I had a vali (still have till now), and for hd800 alone, I put Soloist on same level as schiit vali (discounting its ringing on first few minutes). But the improvement to Stratus was no joke :-)
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I used to have Burson Soloist for about 2 years, quite like it. For me, yes, laid back and neutral with a bit on warm side, but treble had a slightly metallic tone. During the first power up till about 2-3 hrs, it's not good, so I tend to leave it on. At that time, I pair it with audio-gd ref7 (which had a slightly warm tone), so HD800, TH900, LCD-2 were good. I had a vali (still have till now), and for hd800 alone, I put Soloist on same level as schiit vali (discounting its ringing on first few minutes). But the improvement to Stratus was no joke :-)
The upgrade from Soloist to ZDSE was an eye-opening revelation for me. Although I may have criticized the ZDSE's treble above, it was nowhere as sharp and cringy as that of the Soloist. Back then I was a fan of LCD-2 Rev.2 over HD800 so I didn't really complain, but the ZDSE was perhaps the first amp to help me see the HD800 for what it really is. That's when I began to steer away from the planarmagnetic hype brought down by Audeze and HFM and return to the good ol' 300 ohm Senns.
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Funny now, songmic....my journey was very similar to yours...my second amp was the Soloist (first was the Asgard 1)....strongly disliked it from the get go...very laid back and almost put me to sleep...I went ahead and got the Mojo...this amp continues to keep me interested in the planar magnetics...otherwise, its the HD 800 with the ZD (and now the ZDS when it shows up)..
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Hmm, i wonder where does the valhalla and bottlehead head rank on this list.
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Did anyone here ever comment on the ZDS vs. something like a DNA Stratus or one of Craigs higher end tube amps for the HD800s?
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Heard from a close friend that the Eddie Current modded Super 7 amp is outstanding with the HD800's
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Hmm, i wonder where does the valhalla and bottlehead head rank on this list.
I use my loaner pair of HD800's with the Valhalla 2, and they sound impressive to me.
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From left of field, what about the following options:
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The Luxman SQ-N100 is a small valve amplifier (10 watts RMS per channel) that can run both speakers and headphones, ala the solid state Schiit Ragnarok. In the case of the Luxman, resistors are used in the pipe from the amp's juice to power the headphone socket. Could it be considered an option for the HD800 and other quality headphones? An old 6 Moons review suggests so. Or, would the outcome be akin to using a Leben to power headphones? http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/luxman3/100.html (http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/luxman3/100.html)
What about the AudioValve Verto? Hook this little baby up to the speaker posts of a (quality) amplifier and you have power to burn. http://www.audiovalve.info/to/verto.php (http://www.audiovalve.info/to/verto.php)
What about the Linnenberg Maestro with Linnenberg Unisono power supply? http://www.linnenberg-audio.de/html/maestro.html (http://www.linnenberg-audio.de/html/maestro.html)
Something interesting from Japan is the Aurorasound Heada: http://www.aurorasound.jp/english/heada-en.htm (http://www.aurorasound.jp/english/heada-en.htm)
Violectric V281 in balanced mode? http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/authoritative-and-potent-violectric-v281-headphone-amplifier#HXJFqkCv3YvFsUCD.97 (http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/authoritative-and-potent-violectric-v281-headphone-amplifier#HXJFqkCv3YvFsUCD.97)
Surely the GSX MKII is not bad with the HD800s? Or, is it a case of the HD800's highs being THAT aberrant? http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/04/11/headamp-gsx-mk2/ (http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2014/04/11/headamp-gsx-mk2/)
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The best I have the HD800 sound is out of Pete Milletts's DIY SRPP amp. Impedance matching Sowter transformers maybe the key here.
http://www.pmillett.com/ecc99_srpp_headphone_amp.htm
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Another amp to mention which has gotten great reviews in the press but little mention in the forums is the Trilogy Audio 933. It's a solid state affair with a separate psu and designed by Nic poulson of Isol-8 fame. Hoping to demo one of these in the coming weeks.
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Did anyone here ever comment on the ZDS vs. something like a DNA Stratus or one of Craigs higher end tube amps for the HD800s?
For HD800s, if you want a little sweetness, I'd go with the Zana Deux Super. HOWEVER, after hearing the PSU upgrade, I'd say save your money, mod your HD800 and get the Black Widow. Easily bests every other solid state option here. Honestly, the only amp I've heard that's "that much" better is the Studio.
This thread is full of options that are terrible. Violectric? Burson? The GSX MK2?!? WTFBBQ.
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OK ZD. Now you have me banging my head against the wall for not coming down on Saturday. :)p17.
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Speaking of which, my ZDS went into Indian customs on June 19 and was released today ! I think they must have liked the sound so much !! headbang
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They probably couldn't figure out how much to sell it for on ebay? :))
Did you order an HD800 mod? I could package it appropriately for customs.
(https://ferrebeekeeper.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/vishnu-ananta.jpg)
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daaaaaammmmn Anax! great pic. I want that to be my new HF avatar!
oh wait.
:-DD
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Anax, Om Namo Narayana...Its Wednesday here and that is His day. Thanks mate... And BTW, that picture will definitely help and yes I ordered the mod :)p1
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Jex, beat you to it....
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Something interesting from Japan is the Aurorasound Heada: http://www.aurorasound.jp/english/heada-en.htm (http://www.aurorasound.jp/english/heada-en.htm)
[/quote]
I had this amp for a while and i just didn't find it to get on with the HD800s, to thin and brittle, was very detailed and capable though, if a bit grainy but worked great with planars.
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For those that have heard it with the HD800, how does the Liquid Carbon fare against the amps listed in the OP?
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Thanks, SomeSpace, for the mini review on the Heada with the HD800 in tow.
The Trilogy is an interesting option, Hugh. Only single ended, I note.
http://www.trilogyaudio.com/933_amplifier_for_headphones.html (http://www.trilogyaudio.com/933_amplifier_for_headphones.html)
Zerodeefex, is the GSX-Mk2 too revealing of the higher frequency anomolies of the prized but flawed HD800? Ditto, the Violectric V281? Cavalli solid state Liquid Lightening II?
Other solid state options? Perhaps lurking in Europe?
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Thanks, SomeSpace, for the mini review on the Heada with the HD800 in tow.
The Trilogy is an interesting option, Hugh. Only single ended, I note.
http://www.trilogyaudio.com/933_amplifier_for_headphones.html (http://www.trilogyaudio.com/933_amplifier_for_headphones.html)
Zerodeefex, is the GSX-Mk2 too revealing of the higher frequency anomolies of the prized but flawed HD800? Ditto, the Violectric V281? Cavalli solid state Liquid Lightening II?
Other solid state options? Perhaps lurking in Europe?
No, the GSX MK2 has treble etch and isn't the final word in detail retrieval and resolution. I strongly prefer a balanced dynahi with a solid power supply (think sigma22).
That being said, buy the damn Black Widow (Craig ships to the EU). You're an idiot if you take the GSX MK2 over the Black Widow; especially given the price delta.
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GSX mk2 doesn't reveal anything except its own coloration. Don't get where people keep getting that idea from. Oh wait, I think I do...
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GSX mk2 doesn't reveal anything except its own coloration. Don't get where people keep getting that idea from. Oh wait, I think I do...
Mike and I have different tastes but this is spot fucking on.
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Thanks, Zero/Anax for the thoughts on the GSX-Mk2. I was just curious how folk were ga-ga for the GSX-Mk1 and why the GSX-Mk2 got a lukewarm to cold response from some corners. As for the Black Widow, an interesting option. No thoughts on the Cavalli Liquid Lightening? I know it's in another league, at least price wise...
It seems that getting the HD800s to sound 'right' is like walking a tightrope between a very neutral amp or one that acts like a musical instrument in itself by hiding the flaws of the headphones etc. Too far down the measurements-rule/ neutrality path and the HD800s can be brittle/harsh and unmusical. Too far down the musical instrument path and we are in 'Absolute Sound' magazine territory.
That being said, I am more in the neutral/measurements camp. If the recording is flawed, I want to hear it - I want to hear what the sound engineer achieved, warts and all, and not the signature of an amp trying to make it all sound 'real'. The HD800s are flawed and if I don't hear a bit of that I know that the amp is acting as a musical instrument and has strayed too far from neutral. A fine line, methinks.
In other words, to quote Disney's 'Jungle Book', I would like the amp to "accentuate the positive", but not "eliminate the negative(s)" inherent in a recording, mastering, storage (CD Vs computer based) or the HD800s. AND I want it solid state.
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I think you'll find that most here think that the art of headphone amps has come a long way since the GSX/dynalo circuit was first introduced. Re releasing basically the same amp but with a better power supply all these years later isn't a recipe for success.
Also keep in mind that this isn't head-fi, there is no gilmore hype train present here.
As for the Liquid Lightening, thats a electrostatic amp.
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Thanks. As for Cavalli, whoops, yes you are right - the Liquid Gold is also among the recommended amps on page one of this thread. Zero/Anax thoughts on the LG?
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It seems that getting the HD800s to sound 'right' is like walking a tightrope between a very neutral amp or one that acts like a musical instrument in itself by hiding the flaws of the headphones etc.
No. Your limited experience with ToTL amps and the HD800 has left your mind in a quagmire of false dichotomies.
Go ahead and measure any ToTL recommended amp for the HD800 here and tell me where it isn't 'neutral' or doesn't measure well. That's a myth perpetuated by solid state newbs that think cold, sterile and brittle sound is neutral. It is NOT. It's the opposite form of coloration from molasses. Cold, analytical, sterile, harsh, etched, dry are all colorations. Some people just don't know engineering and where or how to measure. Of course, those people are invariably armchair internet engineers who usually have a job completely unrelated to their self-espoused audio or electrical expertise. But they'll be more than happy to educate you on the 'truth'.
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Yes, they are colourations one and all. Like I said, it's a fine line. I would just prefer to keep the amp solid state.
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Both the ragnarok and black widow measure excellently. Again, the other options are not "more neutral". You're spending more for shittier amps if you go for the mk2 or the violectric.
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OK, thanks. The Liquid Gold?
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OK, thanks. The Liquid Gold?
Quite good with the Abyss. Haven't really spent any time with it with the HD800 (I'd ask Alex directly; he's billed it as an ortho amp to me, though).
Why are you so doggedly pursuing these amps? We've given you the best suggestions we can. You can feel free to disregard the advice given in this thread.
If you have your heart set on a particular amp, no advice we give you will satisfy you.
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And I am very appreciative, thanks! I just want to throw the net wider. Perhaps to include options beyond the confines of North America.
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And I am very appreciative, thanks! I just want to throw the net wider. Perhaps to include options beyond the confines of North America.
I'm afraid you'll mostly get us based companies' products recommended here, being an american forum. If you're looking at a non-us based product, I suggest looking into Jan Meier's products.
addendum: I'll add that Schiit has a eu based partner, Schiit-europe.
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Surely this site isn't that parochial?
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Surely this site isn't that parochial?
Are you expecting us to take risks for you and buy stuff so you can be sure what to buy ? This is a community, you will get advices based on what's been tested and recognized as "not shit". When the community makes a find, whatever the origin, it's because one of us went out of his way and used HIS money to try something, and it ended up being good compared to the approved gear.
Nothing out of the ordinary with american gear being the biggest part of the recommended gear, as this is the gear that most contributing members are exposed to in meets/trade shows/ etc ...
So parochial, not so much. But feel free to expand the scope.
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Yeah, sure. That's why I'm putting my feelers out to other members calling on their hands-on exposure to alternatives. The US is the world's biggest market place and many interesting amp alternatives for the HD800 are available. For example, that was great feedback earlier in this thread on the HEADA.
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Schiit-europe.
Europe's not that bad!!! ;)
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Europe's not that bad!!! ;)
Obviously ;) , but that doesn't seem to satisfy our friend here.
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Perhaps to include options beyond the confines of North America.
Honestly if i had to summarize, stuff made in US is on average better sounding.
Right now i have no faith in EU made headamps from my own experience.
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I'm just giving you advice from what I've owned and demoed.
Every burson amp I've owned or auditioned was mediocre. This is not a reflection on Australian manufacturers at all, but rather that Burson (I've owned the conductor and demoed the Soloist for a few days) doesn't make the best headphone amps. The Bryston BHA-1 (a Canadian company) is superior in my experience, but still not up to snuff for the HD800. Headamp, a US company, is using amp designs that were solid a few years ago, but have been outpaced in recent years. The GSX MK2 has always lacked what a good Dynahi can do.
In my experience, Craig really does make magical amps. The Black Widow is the closest I've heard a solid state amp approach the resolution and staging of the best tube amps. In fact, it is superior to many of the best tube amps I've heard as well. Over the last 5 years I've held jobs that have had me traveling pretty globally. I try to hit up headphone shops like Yin Yue/hifi.tw in Taiwan when I travel. In all of my travels, nothing has bested the best Eddie Current amps at all.
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Speaking of tube amps, i find it odd not too many people here like the decware stuff.
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I had nothing but praise for the CSP2+. It does quite well at its price point ($1000). I have heard the Taboo also and it doesn't work well for HD800s, then again it isn't necessarily designed for it.
When it comes to non-sonics though I don't think I could live with the aesthetics of Decware. Ugly as sin.
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I'd like to echo what ZD and Anax have said. I own the Black Widow and the Schiit Ragnarok and the Black Widow is my favorite HD800 amp. Incredibly resolving and musical. It's quite a joy to listen to.
If you really are interested in Cavali amp to match with the HD800, I have to recommend the Liquid Glass + some tube upgrades. It's not as resolving as the Black Widow, but it was enjoyable to listen to with the HD800.
Unfortunately, due to how amps are typically made in low production quantities by people not making big money on their products, we don't see as many foreign amps here.
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Honestly if i had to summarize, stuff made in US is on average better sounding.
Right now i have no faith in EU made headamps from my own experience.
New Kid on the block in E.U : http://www.feliksaudio.pl/en
Some good ears ( aka ears I trust .. and there aren't many) told me the result is really good with the HD800. I'd like to put my hands on one . Maybe I'll contact them after my vacations.
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For Jan Meiers Corda Jazz and Classic there's an upgrade available. The frequency-adpative feedback is supposed to increase micro-detail.
What do you think of this?
I'm not even sure what micro detail is. Most of my music is rather fast, e.g. what should I listen for in Reign in Blood?
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New Kid on the block in E.U : http://www.feliksaudio.pl/en
Some good ears ( aka ears I trust .. and there aren't many) told me the result is really good with the HD800. I'd like to put my hands on one . Maybe I'll contact them after my vacations.
Those amps look the part, and price-wise aren't anywhere near as costly as what I expected. I'm curious to see how their cheapest offering stacks up to the Valhalla 2.
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I'm not even sure what micro detail is. Most of my music is rather fast, e.g. what should I listen for in Reign in Blood?
Depends. Do you listen to the 1986 version http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/92179 (http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/92179) or the 2007 version http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/89357 (http://dr.loudness-war.info/album/view/89357)
For example, on Angel of Death around 1:39 you could listen for harmonic details coming off the toms and cymbal crash when the pace eases and the background quiets down. 4:20-4:30 would also be a decent spot to pay attention to.
Fast metal doesn't mean anything. Recording quality means everything and is genre agnostic. DaveBSC here has a blog on high DR and quality metal.
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Well, of the two solid state recommended amps on the list that are still available new, one may, or may not, go a tad haywire if it gets too hot. The other is the Schiit offering. Not on the list, but receiving some early positive buzz is the Black Widow.
I hadn't looked in at the Mier gear for quite a while. I can't tell from the website pics - do any of those models offer balanced connections (front and rear)? Have the Mier models been updated? Not sure what 'frequency-adpative feedback' would offer - a guess: the amp swings from A class into class B depending on load?
I have a technical question. Say a head amp was designed around 220 voltage (or 110). Does it happen that the same amp changes character/performance if it is re-engineered for 110 voltage (or 220)? Or, if the designer does a bodge job on implementation of the 'other' voltage can it change the audio quality?
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@gogogasgas :
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Meier+audio+
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Doing some back and forth between the ZD and the ZDS with the HD 800. Now beginning to appreciate the term "veiled" sound.
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Doing some back and forth between the ZD and the ZDS with the HD 800. Now beginning to appreciate the term "veiled" sound.
Didn't you say you also have the BW on order too? I would really appreciate it if you could compare BW, ZD and ZDS in their performance with HD800. These days I'm reading so much praise for the BW that it made me wonder if BW might be better sounding than ZDS (for HD800 I mean, of course the BW would beat the pants off ZDS when it comes to driving orthos).
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Didn't you say you also have the BW on order too? I would really appreciate it if you could compare BW, ZD and ZDS in their performance with HD800. These days I'm reading so much praise for the BW that it made me wonder if BW might be better sounding than ZDS (for HD800 I mean, of course the BW would beat the pants off ZDS when it comes to driving orthos).
If you would be interested in a little Korean/Seoul pyrate meet, Id be down to bring my newly acquired BW to compare to your L-2 and to get the chance to hear your SFD-2.
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If you would be interested in a little Korean/Seoul pyrate meet, Id be down to bring my newly acquired BW to compare to your L-2 and to get the chance to hear your SFD-2.
This is interesting. PM sent.
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Didn't you say you also have the BW on order too? I would really appreciate it if you could compare BW, ZD and ZDS in their performance with HD800. These days I'm reading so much praise for the BW that it made me wonder if BW might be better sounding than ZDS (for HD800 I mean, of course the BW would beat the pants off ZDS when it comes to driving orthos).
Song, I just received notification that the BW is ready to ship. It takes 2-3 weeks to get to India. I will definitely get back after that.
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Hey guys (New here)
Is the BW the best Solid state option for the 800's? I'm about to upgrade but need options.
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Hey guys (New here)
Is the BW the best Solid state option for the 800's? I'm about to upgrade but need options.
Tell us what you like and don't like about the HD800 and what you are hoping to improve and preserve.
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I want a neutral but heading towards a little bright sound signature. I want the most plankton under the sea possible. Which amp would you recommend?
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Tell us what you like and don't like about the HD800 and what you are hoping to improve and preserve.
Air + imaging, treble sparkle, tight sub bass extension.
I know what i need here is a TOTL tube amp (or a ZDS) but i can't afford a TOTL amp and where i live is too hot for a ZDS and its magma columns.
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highdef,
I think one of the best amps for the HD800 is the SPL Auditor, but it's now discontinued and has been replaced by the Phonitor Mini. I have both in my possession now and prefer the Mini's presentation to the larger Auditor, plus the Mini can drive a much wider range of headphones. The mini and Auditor are dead neutral, and can be a bit clinical. They are very detailed and very transparent.
I also found Violectric amps to be a good match, but they aren't well loved around here. Another option is Audio-GD. They have exceptional offerings.
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I think one of the best amps for the HD800 is the SPL Auditor, but it's now discontinued and has been replaced by the Phonitor Mini.
I thought it was replaced by the Phonitor2...
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highdef,
I think one of the best amps for the HD800 is the SPL Auditor, but it's now discontinued and has been replaced by the Phonitor Mini. I have both in my possession now and prefer the Mini's presentation to the larger Auditor, plus the Mini can drive a much wider range of headphones. The mini and Auditor are dead neutral, and can be a bit clinical. They are very detailed and very transparent.
I also found Violectric amps to be a good match, but they aren't well loved around here. Another option is Audio-GD. They have exceptional offerings.
I haven't heard a Violectric amp, but Phonitor? I don't understand why it gets a lot of praise with HD800 users. It is practically unbearable to listen to with low impedance phones and even at its best with the HD800 it is still mediocre sounding at best. Shamelessly overpriced wouldn't be an understatement.
highdef asked for BW, and while I actually never did a side-by-side A/B with BW against Phonitor, the BW was absolutely the best SS amp I've ever heard with the HD800 (thanks to SoupRKnowva) and Phonitor wouldn't stand a chance against it. Audio-gd amps are okay for certain orthos but not really a good match with HD800 and nowhere as good as the BW.
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I haven't heard a Violectric amp, but Phonitor? I don't understand why it gets a lot of praise with HD800 users. It is practically unbearable to listen to with low impedance phones and even at its best with the HD800 it is still mediocre sounding at best. Shamelessly overpriced wouldn't be an understatement.
This ^. Phonitor 2 is better, but the original was awful with the HD800. That's one of those devices like most of the original Violectric stuff that belongs on Head-fi hype trains, not here.
Also 'dead neutral' doesn't mean anything. Old Violectrics are dead neutral, so is the Auditor, and so are good tube amps. The Auditor sounds clinical, the Violectric sounds warm. Dead neutral means jack shit.
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Curious if the Mjolnir 2 is a consideration for the list in the OP. Perhaps with the right tubes?
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Curious if the Mjolnir 2 is a consideration for the list in the OP. Perhaps with the right tubes?
Curious about this also. And if anyone can compare the new Mjolnir with a BW.
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I doubt that Marv will update the thread now that he's MOT. You can still get loads of information in the other threads as members get to try and compare the newer Schiit thingies.
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I doubt that Marv will update the thread now that he's MOT. You can still get loads of information in the other threads as members get to try and compare the newer Schiit thingies.
Haha yeah, I know for sure Marv is keeping his lips sealed. But maybe some other members can chime in. That or we can try to find truth serum and slip it in Marv's alcohol. :)p1
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Haha yeah, I know for sure Marv is keeping his lips sealed. But maybe some other members can chime in. That or we can try to find truth serum and slip it in Marv's alcohol. :)p1
How dare you suggest ruining good Scotch/Bourbon/Japanese Whiskey with truth serum! Everyone knows you spike the food, much easier to cover up the taste that way.
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Sorry to bump this thread, but...
I originally wanted to just spend, at best, $100 on an amp to my Audio Technica ATH-M50.
Several thousand of dollars later, I have 4 different $200+ amps.
Owned the Sennheiser 600 & Philips Fidelio.
Currently own the Audeze LCD-2 & the Beyerdynamics T1 & I am going to be getting the Sennheiser HD800 soon. :-0
My problem is none of my amps pair well with the T1 & fear it will be the same with the HD800.
So I somehow convinced myself to spend $1,000 on an amp (I'll look for an extra part time job).
Some of the highly recommended & currently available used amps in various classified are:
(Over $1,000 price bracket)
- -Questyle CMA 800R
- -Auralic Taurus MKII
- -DNA Sonett 2
- -Luxman P-1
(under $1,000 price bracket)
- -Metrum Aurix
- -Icon Audio HP8 Mk2
(under $500 price bracket)
- -Nuforce HA-200
- -Valhalla 2
Wild Card:
have no solid impressions or reviews on it pairing with the HD800 so far.
First priority in the amp I seek is too get rid of all the painful treble spike, sibilance & harshness from the headphones. That includes having zero noise from the amp itself.
Secondly, I want the soundstage, imaging & holographic feel of the HD800 to be improved & expanded.
Lastly, I know the HD800 will never be like the LCD-2 in bass, but if the amp can still improve upon it a little then that would be a plus.
Now if the Valhalla 2 or NuForce HA-200 will give me 90-95% of what the Questyle CMA 800R can give, then I don't want the Questyle.
But if the Questyle CMA 800R gives me like a 50-60% improvement over them, then I will strongly consider them.
Help :-S
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First priority in the amp I seek is too get rid of all the painful treble spike, sibilance & harshness from the headphones. That includes having zero noise from the amp itself.
Secondly, I want the soundstage, imaging & holographic feel of the HD800 to be improved & expanded.
Lastly, I know the HD800 will never be like the LCD-2 in bass, but if the amp can still improve upon it a little then that would be a plus.
None of those amps you listed will give you all three things you want and for those three headphones you mentioned (T1, LCD2, HD800) for the price that you want. What are you willing to sacrifice? Are you willing to put a priority on one headphone over another? These decisions will steer you toward certain amps. Finally, don't forget source. As you go up the ladder, source becomes more and more important.
For reference, the Questyle you currently gives you 1.5 of those things. Non annoying in treble, great bass extension albeit without the slam the HD800 is capable of.
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To Thenewdude007:
My 2 paisa worth: instead of wasting money chasing various amps, just look at the ZD Super from EC; save accordingly, buy and forget about chasing other amps. Kinda what I did; of course it's my opinion.
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The modded EC Super 7 I heard gave that on the stock HD800. Surprisingly powerful sound, treble seemed less problematic, very airy and 3D. At least compared to anything else I'd heard it with prior, which isn't a whole lot TH.
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Sorry to bump this thread, but...
First priority in the amp I seek is too get rid of all the painful treble spike, sibilance & harshness from the headphones. That includes having zero noise from the amp itself.
Secondly, I want the soundstage, imaging & holographic feel of the HD800 to be improved & expanded.
Lastly, I know the HD800 will never be like the LCD-2 in bass, but if the amp can still improve upon it a little then that would be a plus.
Now if the Valhalla 2 or NuForce HA-200 will give me 90-95% of what the Questyle CMA 800R can give, then I don't want the Questyle.
But if the Questyle CMA 800R gives me like a 50-60% improvement over them, then I will strongly consider them.
Help :-S
I have never heard an amp that offers top-notch synergy for an ortho and a dynamic. From my experience, an ortho needs a powerful SS amp. The Dynahi is the best I've heard for the LCD series (though admittedly the LCD's are amongst the least capable when it comes to scaling). The T1 and HD800 is a different matter. In your price range, I would recommend the Decware CSP2+. Near perfect synergy with the T1's and pretty good with the HD800's (won't do much for staging, but a good tonal match). After a while you can purchase a Decware Taboo and paired with the CSP2+ plays well with an ortho.
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None of those amps you listed will give you all three things you want and for those three headphones you mentioned (T1, LCD2, HD800) for the price that you want. What are you willing to sacrifice?
For reference, the Questyle you currently gives you 1.5 of those things. Non annoying in treble, great bass extension albeit without the slam the HD800 is capable of.
I have never heard an amp that offers top-notch synergy for an ortho and a dynamic. From my experience, an ortho needs a powerful SS amp.
Should have made it clear, the amp is mainly for the HD800.
My LCD-2 sounds pretty much perfect with the amps I have, it wasn't finicky with working with any of them.
Compared to my T1, it didn't sound good at all with any amp I used.
Can't afford the $3,000 Eddie Currents, if I could I definitely wouldn't be considering those sub $500 amps lol
So the Questyle or the Decware CSP2+ are the best among them?
Anyone tried those cheaper Chinese models, like the Little Dot 8 SE Balanced Headphone Amplifier
For $900, people have been saying it specs within $3,000 amps.
http://www.littledot.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=871&sid=4053f0279c20c4d8d7db430705e8fcae
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Haven't heard the Questyle CMA 800R, but generally, tubes are preferred for the HD800 and T1. Look to the used market, you may be able to snag a Super 7 for 1k and a CSP2+ much cheaper than that. Then play with tubes until you find your preferred sound.
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The list on page 1 of this thread isn't just a rambling of the messiah that has been adopted blindly. There is a reason the Valhalla 2 is on the list.
For the price, $350 new or 250-300 used, it simply cannot be beat. I loved the presentation with HD800, as well as HD600, DT880 ... you get the idea. Has all the good qualities of tubes for high z headphones, and is still very quiet and clear. Also, its comparably very affordable. If you are looking for a good, sub-$500 amp to get your feet wet with the HD800, I strongly recommend you start with Valhalla 2.
As a corollary, something to consider with the T1 "not pairing well" with any amp you have found so far: you might not like the T1. I would not use the T1 as a predictor of whether or not you might like the HD800, or even what you want an amp to do for the HD800 you don't have yet. General complaints about each ("treble!") are vaguely similar, but after that similarities end. HD800 images way better, and is less offensive in the high frequencies (in my opinion). Also, driver matching is a significant issue with some T1s, and would mess with your listening experience no matter what amp you have.
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I've had all three headphones. I'd sell the T1, the only thing it pairs well with is an equalizer and even then, I'm not a fan.
My current work setup is a Schiit Gungir to an Eddie Current Black Widow. The Black Widow or the EC ZD Super would pair fantastically well with the HD800. Just make sure to mod the HD800, but even unmodded the treble spike will sound like sweet nothings compared to the T1.
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The list on page 1 of this thread isn't just a rambling of the messiah that has been adopted blindly. There is a reason the Valhalla 2 is on the list.
lol yeah I read through his recommendations several times, the options on those amps are strictly based off what can be bought.
Like flat out, which is the best price-to-wow factor for the amps being sold in the classifieds right this minute:
- Questyle CMA 800R used for $1200
- DNA Sonett 2 used for $1,075
- Decware CSP2+ used for $675
I should note that I owned the stock Bottlehead Crack (no speedball) I found that amp way too noisy.
Another thing is zilch0md recommended the $350 NuForce HA200 over the Valhalla 2.
I think he said the V2 was too colored & the NuForce had a more open soundstage & also got rid of the treble edge.
His impressions were very positive, makes me want to try the NuForce over the Valhalla 2 if I go in that price range. Just wish someone else who auditioned both of them gave a second opinion.
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zilch0md has tin ears. The NuForce alone trails the Asgard 2 at best (coming from someone who bought two just to test it out in fully balanced mode which might have gotten close to the Asgard 2).
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V2 is neutral in my IMO. I think people thinking because it's a tube amp, it's going to have a warm sound. Not at all. The HD800 will sound bright on V2 because the HD800 is a bright headphone. This is why I advise mods for HD800: "Anaxilus Mods preferred with Valhalla." I find that amps (some exceptions of course) that roll-off the HD800 to make them palatable tend to also have some deficiencies in resolution, dynamics, attack, nuances, etc.
It's not just a matter of tonal matching and synergies of getting the tone right. The idea is to play to the HD800s strengths and address the HD800s deficiencies with $5 mods -not- address the HD800's deficiencies with an amp that smooths out or rolls-off everything.
Of course if you can't use scissors or don't have a source up to par, might be better off with V200, CMA, NuForce to at least make HD800 not so bright. Not denigrating others' tastes or gear, but just saying what it really takes (good amp AND good source) to build a good setup around the HD800.
90% of HF has no idea what the HD800 can do because most of them are stuck in mid-fi purgatory with their collection of half dozen sub $1000 amps with their sub $100 DACs. With all the combined shipping costs and the cost of their last amp, they could have gotten something truly fantastic.
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I would say that you should hold off, do more research, and decide what you really want. Rather than just buy what happens to be available in the classifieds right now. That isn't a good way to make purchases.
I will second the tin ears comment. And in addition point out that you can here basically with a list of the flavor of the months from head-fi. The Valhalla 2, specially once you upgrade the tubes is a stellar amp. Definitely a great place to start till you can maybe do some auditioning to find out what you want to really upgrade to.
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I should note that I owned the stock Bottlehead Crack (no speedball) I found that amp way too noisy.
FWIW - noise would only be an issue if you had either an bad build or bad tubes. For example, a lot of builders don't follow the manual carefully with respect to how tight you have to braid the input wiring and lose out on noise rejection. If it isn't that, it is usually flawed tubes or, worse, the numb-nuts recommendations for 6sn7 adapters on the a-socket. Talk about unbearable noise. My 5 plus year old tweaked crack still runs dead silent. Not the most refined amp on the block for hd800's, but it can still be very enjoyable with an anax mod in place.
That said, the mainline plays in a very different league, with the best out there to my ears, and has kept me totally happy with my hd800's for going on two years now. Look elsewhere to drive HE-6's, but for high impedance/relatively high efficiency phones like hd800's, bottlehead's single gain stage, constant current loaded parafeed topology is really something and offers a beautifully simple signal path. I upgraded the output caps in mine since a small number of ARC commissioned teflons with just the right specs were available for a short while, but although fun, this wasn't really necessary. Having recently landed a yggy, my hd800 rig is done.
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but just saying what it really takes (good amp AND good source) to build a good setup around the HD800.
90% of HF has no idea what the HD800 can do because most of them are stuck in mid-fi purgatory with their collection of half dozen sub $1000 amps with their sub $100 DACs. With all the combined shipping costs and the cost of their last amp, they could have gotten something truly fantastic.
How much would you say a clean linear power supply connected to the DAC factor in the sound quality?
I hear that they can drastically improve sound quality as well.
I would say that you should hold off, do more research, and decide what you really want. Rather than just buy what happens to be available in the classifieds right now. That isn't a good way to make purchases.
Considering that half these amps are no longer in production & only available once in a full moon when someone decides to sell them, I tend to jump the gun. lol
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Fair enough, but that mentality is what makes A LOT of people burn out and walk away entirely, which I don't think is good. Maybe financially necessary, but not good if your stated goal is enjoying music on your terms. HD800 is a legitimate endgame headphone, hence lists and discussions describing in detail the pros and cons of amping, sourcing, and modding to get those last few drops of glory from it. You deserve to take your time and be intentional about it, especially if you do not have endless funds.
Again, as a corollary, your question about power supply begs many other questions. What DAC are you using? What is power like in your neighborhood/municipality/country? Power supply stuff can be cheap or expensive, and a lot of it depends on what kinds of problems you are addressing. Except in edge cases (very modest dac, super shitty mains power) you are not likely to experience ZOMG benefit from power supply magicks. Will your DAC benefit? probably. Will your listening experience suddenly be drastically better after months of capable but pedestrian performance? highly unlikely.
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I am going to be using a iFi Micro iDSD DAC for the time being. That Micro also contains a amp, which is why I probably will be selling it later & buy a pure DAC only.
I'm still undecided on whether to get the DNA Sonnet 2 OTL tube amp or the Solid State Questyle CMA 800.
Both are selling used just over $1,000 in the classified & both have been highly reviewed & recommend for the HD 800. I would assume they would also be a huge step up from just getting the Valhalla 2!?
The Decware CSP2+ is also being sold cheaper than those two, but I never really researched Decware.
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Sonett 2 is not an OTL amp . It's transformer coupled.
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newdudejamesbond:
You should get whatever you are comfortable purchasing. It is clear you have done a lot of reading on the topic. I mean that genuinely. But, you don't even have the HD800 yet, and don't know what you will like / dislike about it, so I doubt anyone here can say "definitely a, not b".
I would assume they would also be a huge step up from just getting the Valhalla 2!?
The point I was trying to make earlier, which I will be more explicit about now, is that is a faulty assumption. Those amps cost more, and sound different, maybe even better to you, but "huge step up" is relative to the listener. I have no skin in the game, other than I really enjoyed the Valhalla 2 for the HD800, and that the price is VERY low considering the end product. I didn't appreciate how very good the Valhalla 2 was until I got a Ragnarok, which costs more and is very favorably reviewed if you are into that stuff. I liked the HD800 from Ragnarok more than Valhalla 2, the resolution and detail was almost too much, which is what I was trying to achieve. However, at no point did I say "holy balls! this is what I have been missing in headphone audio all along!! what an exponential leap compared to the Valhalla 2!!"
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However, at no point did I say "holy balls! this is what I have been missing in headphone audio all along!! what an exponential leap compared to the Valhalla 2!!"
hello,
maybe this in ALL CAPS or bolded.
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I have been quite satisfied so far using my Modded Super 7 with the HD-800. However, curiousity, and a one time slight windfall of money is prompting me to buy a few other amps to compare in a Trial period. If I enjoy any of them more than the Super 7, I'll likely end up putting it up for sale on here first.
The two competitors I'm currently planning are the Apex Peak/Volcano, and Trafomatic Head Two. I'd also like to through the EC BW in the mix, but I'll have to find out the production schedule, and then I'd probably have to resell instead of return. Otherwise I may throw in a Mjolnir 2 or Ragnarok instead. I can also post impressions of my comparison if anyone is interested. It would still be a few weeks away before I can make the orders though.
At the same time I'll be ordering a Yggdrasil to use as my new source for the comparison, but also could be delayed from a backorder on that. I'd much rather evaluate them with it in place.
In regards to the Trafomatic,
Does anyone here have any experience with Trafomatic products in general? They tend to be well reviewed, but I know the audience here is more critical (in a good way), and I'm curious if there are any negative criticisms of their sound or performance. There's a lot about the Head one, but the head two is relatively new and only been out a year. Very little coverage on it still besides a single "professional" review.
It does look very interesting though. Kind of standard tube types and push-pulll operation. Not sure how their own OPT's compare to others like Electraprint and Cinemag though. It seems their specialty was originally making transformers so that seems positive.
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/0714/trafomatic_audio_head_2.htm
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Guys. Help me out here. Literal best amp for the HD800, price no object. Absolute transparency is a must, no tonal issues, no smearing, nothing but perfect is acceptable. My friend is putting a rig together and has the Apex Pinnacle in there at the moment. Any thoughts?
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^EC Studio. Seems like a head-to-head is in order and the winner should stay. Haven't heard the Pinnacle yet, but the Studio met your requirements from listening to the Prototypes at two different meets. I compared to the Zana Deux Super and the Black Widow with Yggy and same transport feeding all three amps.
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EC Studio or bust. Best production amp I've ever heard with the HD800. I'd settle for nothing less in your friend's shoes.
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EC Studio or bust. Best production amp I've ever heard with the HD800. I'd settle for nothing less in your friend's shoes.
Ya hidin' something?
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Hi,
Has anyone here heard the ECP Audio L-2 before with the HD800? How is the synergy of this pairing? The small size is interesting me and I need something to use while my β22 is being build.
Cheers,
Jeremiah
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^Not yet for me, but I have heard good things about the L-2 and want to hear it sometime. You might wanna pick one up and try it, you may like it better than B22 for HD800 after yours is built. I didn't like the B22/HD800 pairing.
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Tari is the first person that comes to mind. You can read some of his thoughts here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/661233/ecp-audio-dsha-1-l-2-black-diamond (http://www.head-fi.org/t/661233/ecp-audio-dsha-1-l-2-black-diamond), or PM him here at Changstar. Short version: supposed to be pretty good.
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All the ECP Audio amps are limited production runs, which makes them really hard to get.
Theoretically, you can build one yourself since the boards are online. Just need a PSU.
https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc (https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc)
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Ya hidin' something?
I hide lots of things. Not a better sounding amp that I've heard though :)
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All the ECP Audio amps are limited production runs, which makes them really hard to get.
Theoretically, you can build one yourself since the boards are online. Just need a PSU.
https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc (https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc)
That build looks real tempting. Would you have any idea how much a build would come up to, excluding the power supply?
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That build looks real tempting. Would you have any idea how much a build would come up to, excluding the power supply?
Depends on your choice of parts. On the product page it mentions that the original nickel core output transformers aren't available but that the edcor transformers from the Torpedo will fit.
Speaking of ECP DIY; Just stumbled upon this http://diy.ecpaudio.com/2015/07/dsha-2-headphone-amplifier.html Might be worth looking into as well. Looks like a downscaled version of the DSHA-1. Possibly more affordable.
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Probably not of help to someone looking for a great amp to drive the HD800's, but my modded ECP Black Diamond drives the hell out of my unmodded HE800's. I've been working with Tari's prototype (blue acrylic case), and modded - it's a damn good match. Not quite as good as my Uber7 (great synergy with the HD800's), but the mods have gone a long way at addressing the BD weaknesses driving the HD800 (or anything else for that matter).
Unfortunately, the mods would be a lot tricker with the late proto / release boards that ECP sells directly. My early proto wasn't SMD, go it gave me flexibility to address the primary weakness (the switching supply). Doug rightly points out that due to the high PSRR of the BD circuit, there wasn't a huge difference between the quality switching supply he used and a traditional linear PS circuit.
That doesn't mean that replacing the upgrading the standard regulators would bring a huge improvement - it surely did. I feel like I should get a commission for all the talking I've done of Belleson regs, but dropping two of them in to replace the standard regs (with the usual V set resistors modified accordingly) made a huge difference. From there, a few cap changes, with some wiring upgrades, and I believe I have the best sounding BD out there (of course that's bravado - really, how would I know?).
It's likely the reg upgrade could still be done with an SMD board, but the Bellesons would be flying - but a DIY case could certainly provide for this.
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Depends on your choice of parts. On the product page it mentions that the original nickel core output transformers aren't available but that the edcor transformers from the Torpedo will fit.
Speaking of ECP DIY; Just stumbled upon this http://diy.ecpaudio.com/2015/07/dsha-2-headphone-amplifier.html Might be worth looking into as well. Looks like a downscaled version of the DSHA-1. Possibly more affordable.
I emailed Doug about it, he mentioned the nickel OPTs and Lundahl input transformers plus V-cap parafeed caps cost about $650 alone. He told me the new Torpedo 3 he has lined up with a new set of Cinemag OPTs is competitive with the L2, and much cheaper to put together.
That DSHA-2 does indeed look very interesting, and possibly more affordable.
To the other pyrates who might know, how does the L2 stack up technicalities-wise compared to say the DSHA-1 and the big boy ECs?
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^Not yet for me, but I have heard good things about the L-2 and want to hear it sometime. You might wanna pick one up and try it, you may like it better than B22 for HD800 after yours is built. I didn't like the B22/HD800 pairing.
Tari is the first person that comes to mind. You can read some of his thoughts here: http://www.head-fi.org/t/661233/ecp-audio-dsha-1-l-2-black-diamond (http://www.head-fi.org/t/661233/ecp-audio-dsha-1-l-2-black-diamond), or PM him here at Changstar. Short version: supposed to be pretty good.
All the ECP Audio amps are limited production runs, which makes them really hard to get.
Theoretically, you can build one yourself since the boards are online. Just need a PSU.
https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc (https://squareup.com/market/ecp-consolidated-productions-llc)
Hi CEE TEE, aufmerksam, and No_One411,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I didn't know the amp has been discontinued so this is not a practical option...
I am curious about tube headphone amp because it supposedly brings the best out of the HD800 better than SS am I correct?
It is just that I have two young daughters so I'm scared for a potential accident so something small that I can tuck away safely will be ideal. I hope this new Torpedo 3 has a small footprint like the L-2.
For SS, I am pretty confident with the Beta 22. I still prefer its sound than GS-X MK2, Taurus MK2, Master 9 or super-simetri Dynalo.
I'm seconding HitmanFluffy's question. I am curious how the L-2 compare against traditional tube amps like Eddie Current or Donald North Audio designs.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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Hi CEE TEE, aufmerksam, and No_One411,
Thank you for your thoughtful response.
I didn't know the amp has been discontinued so this is not a practical option...
I am curious about tube headphone amp because it supposedly brings the best out of the HD800 better than SS am I correct?
It is just that I have two young daughters so I'm scared for a potential accident so something small that I can tuck away safely will be ideal. I hope this new Torpedo 3 has a small footprint like the L-2.
For SS, I am pretty confident with the Beta 22. I still prefer its sound than GS-X MK2, Taurus MK2, Master 9 or super-simetri Dynalo.
I'm seconding HitmanFluffy's question. I am curious how the L-2 compare against traditional tube amps like Eddie Current or Donald North Audio designs.
Regards,
Jeremiah
I currently own the L-2 and use it to drive my HD650 as well as HD800. Perhaps I could be of some help.
First of all, I don't agree with the general notion that tube brings the best out of HD800 better than SS. It's a matter of implementation, after all. That being said, the L-2 is the best tube amp with the HD800 I've heard to date. It is one of the few amps that takes the otherwise treble hot edge off the HD800 without compromising its imaging/resolution, while offering a very clean black background and superb soundstage. The L-2 is not a typical tube amp, it is a parafeed hybrid amp that is also unique from the typical so-called hybrid amps with tube input/gain stage and analog output stage.
Both the L-2 and Torpedo have their tubes mostly inside the chassis with only the top coming out, kinda like a Schiit Lyr/Mjolnir 2. I don't think you really have to worry about a potential accident as much as a SS amp.
Now, I haven't done a direct comparison between L-2 and DNA Stratus but I preferred the L-2 quite more. Not sure how it would stack up against the upcoming Solaris. As for Eddie Current, I used to own the Zana Deux SE but the L-2 is superior to it in almost every way. However, the newly updated Zana Deux Super, which is supposedly a significant upgrade as Anax have pointed out, might be just as good if not better than the L-2.
The L-2 is discontinued, so you're right, it's not a practical option. I was very lucky to find a used one in good condition for sale. However, ecp audio is currently working on some new amps that you might be interested in. Why don't you contact Doug for more info?
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I emailed Doug about it, he mentioned the nickel OPTs and Lundahl input transformers plus V-cap parafeed caps cost about $650 alone. He told me the new Torpedo 3 he has lined up with a new set of Cinemag OPTs is competitive with the L2, and much cheaper to put together.
That DSHA-2 does indeed look very interesting, and possibly more affordable.
To the other pyrates who might know, how does the L2 stack up technicalities-wise compared to say the DSHA-1 and the big boy ECs?
Thew new DSHA is quoted at 2.3k USD at head-case by Doug.
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For SS, I am pretty confident with the Beta 22. I still prefer its sound than GS-X MK2, Taurus MK2, Master 9 or super-simetri Dynalo.
Beta's are funny that way, as you find wide disparities in opinions. The 4CH Beta I used to own was nice with the HD800's. It was powerful, with excellent transients, a very wide stage and exceptionally smooth. The bass was powerful, but a little bloomy (which works for the HD800). Other people, with obviously different builds, find their Beta's sharp and sibilant. Others still, have called it aggressive, where I found it to be powerful, but laid back somewhat. Just bear in mind that when people talk about the Beta, they are referring to a specific build, which is not necessarily representative of your own build.
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....The L-2 is not a typical tube amp, it is a parafeed hybrid amp that is also unique from the typical so-called hybrid amps with tube input/gain stage and analog output stage.
L-2 is a beautifully made spud amp, for sure, with great quality components. One minor possible clarification to the above, it is not as I understand it, strictly speaking, a hybrid as that term is typically used, because we are talking about a single gain stage tube amp. But like other quality parafeed designs, Doug/ECP does use some sophisticated SS components to load the plates with constant current, etc.
Doc B (Bottlehead) actually originated the first parafeed amp in his basement back in 2003, and there is a pretty cool interchange between Doc and Doug about the evolution of this design over on HF: http://www.head-fi.org/t/683012/bottlehead-amplifier-discussion-comparison-thread-crack-sex-mainline/735#post_10604677 The mainline kit is bottlehead's current implementation of this topology, with a couple of twists. The torpedo is ECP's more budget minded version. In the five figure range, the parafeed topology is is also used in bottlehead's new prebuilt statement amp.
Doug has also posted a really nice article on parafeed design for those who are so inclined: http://diy.ecpaudio.com/p/parafeed-tutorial.html
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^Thanks, Eric for mentioning that B22 builds will differ...I haven't heard different builds enough to understand the spectrum.
Jeremiah, besides the nice recommendations here and options already stated- not a tube amp, but you might consider trying the EC solid state amp Black Widow in comparison to your B22 and keep the one that wins that battle. Not far off in pricing from a proper L-2 if you find one for sale and it is SS without the harshness/etch, or dullness, or v-shape that some SS amps have. An idea for later if other exploration doesn't pan out.
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Currently got the Gumby combined with the Valhalla 2 for HD800's (stock, but will do the Anax 2.0 mod in the next couple of weeks) and HD650's. I've also got the Cavalli Liquid Carbon on order, so I can have a balanced amp for the Gumby that will work well with all of my headphones.
I'm most interested in seeing how well the LC does compared to the Val2 for the Senn's.
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I currently own the L-2 and use it to drive my HD650 as well as HD800. Perhaps I could be of some help.
First of all, I don't agree with the general notion that tube brings the best out of HD800 better than SS. It's a matter of implementation, after all. That being said, the L-2 is the best tube amp with the HD800 I've heard to date. It is one of the few amps that takes the otherwise treble hot edge off the HD800 without compromising its imaging/resolution, while offering a very clean black background and superb soundstage. The L-2 is not a typical tube amp, it is a parafeed hybrid amp that is also unique from the typical so-called hybrid amps with tube input/gain stage and analog output stage.
Both the L-2 and Torpedo have their tubes mostly inside the chassis with only the top coming out, kinda like a Schiit Lyr/Mjolnir 2. I don't think you really have to worry about a potential accident as much as a SS amp.
Now, I haven't done a direct comparison between L-2 and DNA Stratus but I preferred the L-2 quite more. Not sure how it would stack up against the upcoming Solaris. As for Eddie Current, I used to own the Zana Deux SE but the L-2 is superior to it in almost every way. However, the newly updated Zana Deux Super, which is supposedly a significant upgrade as Anax have pointed out, might be just as good if not better than the L-2.
The L-2 is discontinued, so you're right, it's not a practical option. I was very lucky to find a used one in good condition for sale. However, ecp audio is currently working on some new amps that you might be interested in. Why don't you contact Doug for more info?
Beta's are funny that way, as you find wide disparities in opinions. The 4CH Beta I used to own was nice with the HD800's. It was powerful, with excellent transients, a very wide stage and exceptionally smooth. The bass was powerful, but a little bloomy (which works for the HD800). Other people, with obviously different builds, find their Beta's sharp and sibilant. Others still, have called it aggressive, where I found it to be powerful, but laid back somewhat. Just bear in mind that when people talk about the Beta, they are referring to a specific build, which is not necessarily representative of your own build.
^Thanks, Eric for mentioning that B22 builds will differ...I haven't heard different builds enough to understand the spectrum.
Jeremiah, besides the nice recommendations here and options already stated- not a tube amp, but you might consider trying the EC solid state amp Black Widow in comparison to your B22 and keep the one that wins that battle. Not far off in pricing from a proper L-2 if you find one for sale and it is SS without the harshness/etch, or dullness, or v-shape that some SS amps have. An idea for later if other exploration doesn't pan out.
Hi songmic, ericfarrell85 and CEE TEE,
Thank you for your kind advise, I really appreciate it.
I think the best course of action for now is to wait until Torpedo 3 is finalized then decide what I want to do next. The good thing is it's DIY so that should be cheaper than Doug's commercial amps.
To be honest the DNA Stratus is also interesting me because it's just so pretty. :D
As for the Beta 22, I really like it and I think ericfarrell85 explain the sound much better than I did. The one that I auditioned is also a 4-channel build and I think come with AMB ladder volume control. It's too big though so I'm doing a simpler 2-channel build but in true dual-mono configuration.
I'm curious about the Black Widow as well because I read CEE TEE's observation and it seems that it has tube-like smoothness so in a way it should share some characteristics with the Beta 22. A shootout is a good idea and something I will consider.
Still it's sad to see how many of the newer solid-state amps just sound so unnaturally bright.
Regards,
Jeremiah
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If you want to try and snag an ECP L-2, it looks like there is one for sale on Head-Fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/737754/ic-ecp-l-2-production-model
Many moons ago I owned an ECP Black Diamond to accompany the HD800
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Among the amps I own, I believe the ZD Super to be the best amp for the HD 800 (with the Anax 2.0 mod). When I got my BW (three days ago) I was taken aback (pleasantly so) as to how close it was to the ZDS. I hear the ZDS as being a bit more spacious and digs a bit deeper into the bottom end by comparison. However, the BW is very very good on its own and easily the best SS amp that I have heard thus far.
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I just wanted to add a comment on driving the HD800s, and in fact just about any 300 Ohm Sennheiser phone -- I apologize if tis is already in the thread somewhere. Many headphones (grado, LCDs, etc) have an almost flat impedance. Consequently, as the amp's output impedance increases, the sound does not change too much except for perhaps some bloom due to low damping (which I and I think a lot of people find to be a crude yet effective form of EQing). In the case of the Senns, not only do you perhaps get the low damping thing, but because of the changing impedance forming a voltage divider with the output impedance, you also get a pleasant bass hump.
As an example, here is a frequency response graph of the output of a Black Diamond (with a very low output impedance) driving an HD650 directly, with a small output transformer, and with an output transformer and a series resistor. The OPT was a 10K:300 stepdown, so in the case of just the OPT it is really an issue of the secondary's DC resistance. In the case with the resistor, the 2K5 resistor stepped down to being roughly like a 75R resistor (which with the DCR meant a roughly 100 Ohm impedance - close to the headphone standard of 120 Ohms).
If you replicate this but load everything with a 300R resistor instead of the phones, you get a 3 identical flat graphs.
(http://www.ecpaudio.com/images/FR_BD_Comp.png)
I'll add that parafeed amps tend to have a natural bass hump, too. http://www.intactaudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=316
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Among the amps I own, I believe the ZD Super to be the best amp for the HD 800 (with the Anax 2.0 mod). When I got my BW (three days ago) I was taken aback (pleasantly so) as to how close it was to the ZDS. I hear the ZDS as being a bit more spacious and digs a bit deeper into the bottom end by comparison. However, the BW is very very good on its own and easily the best SS amp that I have heard thus far.
That's how I hear them too.
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The HD800 also has a natural bass hump. Our measurements here are done with my O2 amp. Tyll uses a SS amp as well I'm pretty sure. Both have negligible output impedance. About 92% of the tube amps (including transformer coupled) I recommend have an output impedance around 2-7 ohms.
Since we're on the subject, a subject which should probably be split off, any idea why planars like the LCDs and some Hifiman sound bassier on some amps versus others even though they have flat impedance curves?
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Since we're on the subject, a subject which should probably be split off, any idea why planars like the LCDs and some Hifiman sound bassier on some amps versus others even though they have flat impedance curves?
I think its because of the fact that a lower impedance ortho receives only a fraction of power from a High output impedance amp compared to what it would get from a low output impedance amp. One has to remember that the lower frequency reproduction requires the maximum excursion from the driver and consequently would need much more power to be driven optimally in that region.
For instance, my 6AS7 OTL has an output impedance of 150 ohm and the LCD-2 sounds noticeably bass light on this amp. If I change he output tube to 6528 which lowers the output impedance to about 50ohms, the LCD2 gain that solid bottom end that they are famous for (almost comparable to Beta22 now). OTOH, my 150 ohm orthos sound the same FR wise regardless of the output tubes.
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If you want to try and snag an ECP L-2, it looks like there is one for sale on Head-Fi:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/737754/ic-ecp-l-2-production-model
Many moons ago I owned an ECP Black Diamond to accompany the HD800
I wouldn't waste too much time with this one. It's been listed for over a year and in perpetual IC mode, which is essentially an auction and forbidden according to HF classified rules strangely enough.
I'm local to the seller and sent my first PM to him over a year ago trying to buy it. He wants like $2000-2500 for it based on reputation alone when all other used L-2's that have sold on head-fi have all gone for $1200-1450.
Something tells me the IC will still be there in 2016.
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^Bummer. Because he has good feedback and he bought it from Radio_head which means he got a good deal on it.
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So the Questyle or the Decware CSP2+ are the best among them?
Don't know if this is still timely, but of the various SS amps I've acquired, both the Questyle CMA800(R) and Bakoon HPA-21 play very nice with my HD800s (unmodded), as well as my LCD-2 orthos. I understand both amps were actually developed and voiced using the HD800 as reference phones.
Somewhat abashedly (or not), I haven't yet unpacked my BW at work, both because I'm still waiting for the bimbo to pair it with, and because we still have some tradesmen roaming the building after hours finalizing the May flood damage repairs. I've already lost a digital camera that way, so I'm somewhat still snakebit. But I have high expectations for that amp with HD800s as well, based on poster feedback around here, altho I'm actually targeting my new Slants for my all new work desktop setup.
I also have T1s, but I've relegated them to strictly portable rig use, pursuant to retiring them after trying to pair them for some period with my old Soloist desktop amp. But if you're interested, I can dust them off and see how they sound with the Questyle amp.
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Don't know if this is still timely, but of the various SS amps I've acquired, both the Questyle CMA800(R) and Bakoon HPA-21 play very nice with my HD800s (unmodded), as well as my LCD-2 orthos. I understand both amps were actually developed and voiced using the HD800 as reference phones.
I'm interested in your opinion on the Questyle & both the HD800 & LCD2.
My testing of the HD800 & LCD2 with a Bottlehead Crack & iFi Micro iDSD was nothing special so far.
HD800 severely lacked the mids & bass of the LCD2 & the LCD2 severely lacked the soundstage & vocals of the HD800.
Does the Questyle close the gap between the two in their weaknesses?
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No
I also have to caution folks about the Bakoon+HD800 pairing in current mode. You'd be better off just getting a used HE500.
Looking for miracles with HD800s from basic stock Bottlehead Cracks and Questyles are serious pie in the sky hopes and dreams.
They haven't been mentioned as prime pairings for the HD800 before for a reason. All you're doing with these is trying to change tone and balance and getting nothing special from the HD800. At that point, you should just get another headphone instead.
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No
I also have to caution folks about the Bakoon+HD800 pairing in current mode. You'd be better off just getting a used HE500.
Looking for miracles with HD800s from basic stock Bottlehead Cracks and Questyles are serious pie in the sky hopes and dreams.
They haven't been mentioned as prime pairings for the HD800 before for a reason. All you're doing with these is trying to change tone and balance and getting nothing special from the HD800. At that point, you should just get another headphone instead.
I agree. Some of the amps that get recommended at Head-Fi to tame the HD800's just made them sound like shittier LCD-X's.
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I'm interested in your opinion on the Questyle & both the HD800 & LCD2.
I personally think that the current output of the Questyle (and Bakoon) tames a lot of the system impedance mismatching between amp and headphones. Miraculous or no, I hear no artificial aspects or loss of the clarity and resolution that current amps are known for, with either the HD800s and LCD-2s. I routinely end up using the LCD-2 with the CMA800 and the HD800 with the HPA-21 for my sessions listening, and find them both still engaging after extended periods.
From the CMA800 product literature:
Questyle believes “power supply is the first priority to achieve a good sound”. CMA800 power-supply
system is made up of the high-performance transformer well designed by Plitron, a famous Canadian
manufacturer, 10A ONSEMI ultra fast recovery rectifiers, and 16 top audio capacitances ELNA
SIMLICⅡwith large capacity, which provide clean power for the amplification part of CMA800 in a most
original but effective way.
“I had the pleasure to audition the beta version of the CMA800 Current Mode Headphone amplifier and
was very impressed in all respects . Listening to tracks from Jennifer Warne’s ‘The Hunter’ through
Sennheiser HD800 headphones was a revelation. This is an old favorite record that I thought I knew well
but I heard details previously buried deep in the track. The sound was dynamic, ethereal, detailed and
precise with no unpleasant artifacts of any kind. Everything you want music to be was there. This is a
promising first product from a talented young company with great engineering.”
---Howard Gladstone
President of Plitron Manufacturing Inc.
And project86's extensive review of the CMA800R, in case you haven't yet seen it:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/questyle-cma800r-current-mode-headphone-amplifier-silver/reviews/10036?utm_campaign=subscription&utm_source=subscription_immediate&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email (http://www.head-fi.org/products/questyle-cma800r-current-mode-headphone-amplifier-silver/reviews/10036?utm_campaign=subscription&utm_source=subscription_immediate&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=website&utm_source=sendgrid.com&utm_medium=email)
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Looking for miracles with HD800s from basic stock Bottlehead Cracks and Questyles are serious pie in the sky hopes and dreams.
They haven't been mentioned as prime pairings for the HD800 before for a reason. All you're doing with these is trying to change tone and balance and getting nothing special from the HD800. At that point, you should just get another headphone instead.
I routinely end up using the LCD-2 with the CMA800 and the HD800 with the HPA-21 for my sessions listening, and find them both still engaging after extended periods.
Thought so.
My experience is that the LCD2 pairs much better with solid state amps & the HD800 much better with tubes.
With the iFi Micro iDSD, the LCD2 soundstage really increases. It no longer feels congested or muddy. Actually closes the gap between it & the HD800 when the HD800 is driven by the iDSD, as far as vocals & spacing goes.
With the Micro iDSD, I would prefer the LCD2 over the HD800 8 out of 10 times for the songs I tested.
With the Crack, it's the opposite. The HD800 strengths are better emphasized & the bass/mids aren't as recessed (still recessed compared to the LCD2). While the LCD2 can sound too boomy on the Crack & have some distortion at higher levels of volume.
With all that said, I still want to find a amp/tube combo (NOT over $2,000) that can transform the HD800 to SOMEWHAT have the forward midrange & bass of the LCD2.
I'm not talking equaling it, just to make it not such a obvious gap.
IS there anything like that?
Would Bottlehead Speedball with better tubes be the answer?
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Unless there has been a drastic change to the questyle in the last year and a half or so since I stopped paying attention to it, it isn't a current mode amp in the same way the bakoon is. The bakoon uses current mode output, the questyle just uses current gain, it uses a standard voltage output.
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Unless there has been a drastic change to the questyle in the last year and a half or so since I stopped paying attention to it, it isn't a current mode amp in the same way the bakoon is. The bakoon uses current mode output, the questyle just uses current gain, it uses a standard voltage output.
I find some of these nomenclatures a bit confusing myself to be honest. Someone with better technical understanding feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but this is how I understand a "current mode" transmission. I think current mode just means that the signal through the amp is keep at a low voltage and/or low internal impedance level to minimize distortion through the amp. But at some point in the output there would have to be voltage gain to occur in order to produce a reasonable volume at the output.
It seems to me the current mode idea would be best applied in a dac/amp combo in which a current output DAC can be kept in current mode all the way through to a final I/V output stage. The inherent disadvantage of keeping the low level signal would be more chances to pick up noise, up to the final gain stage.
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I still want to find a amp/tube combo (NOT over $2,000) that can transform the HD800 to SOMEWHAT have the forward midrange & bass of the LCD2.
While I haven't heard a LCD-2, I had the same wishes for HD800 a while back when I had a Sabre based crappy dac. You could get a Gungnir MB and a Cavalli amp for 2k$. Many other great amps to chose from as well.
No idea about the Cavalli L-Carbon vs Ehha, but others have said Cavalli has strong house sound and the descriptions of it match with how I hear my Ehha.
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Quote from: Thenewdude007 on September 10, 2015, 01:41:20 PM
I still want to find a amp/tube combo (NOT over $2,000) that can transform the HD800 to SOMEWHAT have the forward midrange & bass of the LCD2.
Consider used. I picked up my EC ZD (first edition) for $1100 shipped during the dark times where everyone thought they were shitty and couldn't stop dumping them on the market. Some of the S7s with various mods listed here also sold for quite cheap. Heck, wasn't there a great deal on a Cavalli Liquid Carbon recently? Good deals always come along in audio. Just need to be patient and/or lucky in terms of timing. Trying to convince yourself that something is awesome because HF said it was awesome and you were getting a really really really good deal on it usually isn't a good idea.
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Liquid Carbon is good call.
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Consider used. I picked up my EC ZD (first edition) for $1100 shipped during the dark times where everyone thought they were shitty and couldn't stop dumping them on the market. Some of the S7s with various mods listed here also sold for quite cheap. Heck, wasn't there a great deal on a Cavalli Liquid Carbon recently? Good deals always come along in audio. Just need to be patient and/or lucky in terms of timing. Trying to convince yourself that something is awesome because HF said it was awesome and you were getting a really really really good deal on it usually isn't a good idea.
You wouldn't be able to part ways with your EC ZD for around that same price would you?
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You wouldn't be able to part ways with your EC ZD for around that same price would you?
I've put money into it (it is the basis for the ZDS), and Gunner in NY has already claimed it should I ever sell it.
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Just remembered the debate on the T1 thread about voltage being the main factor to properly drive the T1.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/508836/the-official-beyerdynamic-t1-impressions-and-discussion-thread/9540#post_11840676
On voltage, the T1 will swing impedance to >1k ohms at ~100 Hz (see: http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/BeyerdynamicT1.pdf for measurement), so the amplifier has to be able to handle that load or I'd expect bass to be lacking
It was obobskivich vs technobear. Not sure who won or if there was even a definite conclusion.
Do any of you guys agree with that debate?
My criticism of the HD800 bass being veiled could be the cause of amps not having enough voltage to power the bass specifically?
That would make sense that the Valhalla 2 pairs so well with it, as it is one of the only Schiit amps that has high output impedance?
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Valhalla 2 has a toggle between 3.5 ohms and 14 ohms according to the manual, which is actually a fraction of the output impedance on most OTL's. Schiit is using negative feedback to bring it down, which has its pros and cons.
The output impedance issue is an interesting one. Marv gets into this in one of my favorite changstar threads: http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=90.0 In a nutshell, due to the spike on the hd800's impedance curve, the headphone gets a mid-bass boost that varies directly with the output impedance of the amp. The link has some cool graphs showing this with impedance adapters. But you are sacrificing bass tightness/damping for mid-bass amplitude when you increase amp output impedance. I tend to agree with other pyrates that I don't love the sound of hd800's bass with too much output impedance. Nor do I like it with ~0 ohm outs. The low setting on my mainline (a nominal 16 ohm tap, but actually < 10 ohm out, as opposed to the higher 32 ohm tap) seems about ideal to me with most music.
Lack of voltage swing on a 0-1 ohm pocket amp like the O2 probably does contribute to disappointing bass response for hd800's. (I loath this combo even with the agdr booster in my O2). That said, I suspect most decently designed desktop amps have adequate voltage swing such that power is not really an issue.
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Unless there has been a drastic change to the questyle in the last year and a half or so since I stopped paying attention to it, it isn't a current mode amp in the same way the bakoon is. The bakoon uses current mode output, the questyle just uses current gain, it uses a standard voltage output.
You are correct. The Questyle uses current controlled signal amplification, but with conventional voltage I/O so as to maximize the amp's interconnect compatibility with the bulk of 3rd party audio gear, according to them. The Bakoon has both current and voltage controlled outputs, with the preponderance of use with the current mode I/O, the so-called SATRI current interconnects, much like the Krell CAST interconnect system.
But the Bakoon amp amplification is also 'SATRI' circuitry, employing no negative feedback and current controlled signal, according to a Akira Nagai interview, so in any event, it utilizes a unique topology.
Current controlled signal amplification ostensibly yields industry best minimum TIMD, as well as clarity, resolution and rapid transient response, while current controlled output eliminates impedance imbalance distortion in the transmitted signal.
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Hands and Anax: How's Teton vs ZD Super :)p17 ?
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Hands and Anax: How's Teton vs ZD Super :)p17 ?
I couldn't say directly because there was no ZDS there and a lot of the gear and tube selection was unfamiliar to me with the Teton. All I can say is they are both good amps, but that's about it. Both have a good sense of clarity. As far as resolution, soundstage, dynamics, I can't say for sure. Based on price, I certainly didn't "feel" the ZDS as configured at Wikia was inferior or would get crushed or "lose" out to the Teton.
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Don't mean to pester you guys for opinions, but the a lot of the higher end priced amps I am looking at are discontinued & only appear in the classified ever so often. I'm waiting for the Super 7 or maybe the Sonnett 2 whenever they get put back on the used market. In the mean time I'm looking for an alternative & the Luxman P-1u has been recommended very favorably.
BUT can anyone refute project86's claims of the $800 Violectric V200 & the $300 Matrix M Stage being almost as good as the $2,000 Luxman P-1u?
From project86
http://www.head-fi.org/t/551173/review-violectric-hpa-v200-amp
The V200 edges itself up a little higher than that. In fact, I believe I could get rid of my Luxman P-1u and not miss it much. The V200 is just that good.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/475618/matrix-m-stage-amp-review-simple-cheap-and-excellent
"The M-Stage seems particularly well mated with the HD800, in fact it performs nearly on par with the Luxman (more on that later)."
"There are no glaring shortcomings obvious on the M-Stage compared to the Luxman. It is more a case of being outperformed in every area by a small but significant margin"
"The exception is with the HD800s. The M-Stage is very close to being equal to the Luxman when using the HD800s, lacking just a tiny bit of control in the lower register as well as having slightly inferior attack and decay, again mostly noticeable on strings. To come so close with such a low price is truly remarkable and if I hadn’t heard it myself I probably wouldn’t believe it."
I basically never read any recent reviews praising them that much, let alone comparing them favorably to the Luxman.
There doesn't seem to be a lot of love for the V200 in here & the M-Stage seems to have been regulated behind the Valhalla 2 & Vali amps.
From all the reviews I read on the Luxman, it brought out the mid-range and mid-bass, as well as keeping a large soundstage. That is what I want from the HD800.
Can anyone who audition any of these amps pitch in?
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Can't say I'd refute that. Luxman sounds pretty boring and flat (dynamically) sounding too, a little too warm and unresolved for my tastes. It does essentially remind me of a slightly better sounding Violectric v200.
Where we disagree is whether they sound good. The HD800 deserves better but whatever floats your boat.
Is there something in the HD800 you like you can't find in another headphone?
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Can't say I'd refute that. Luxman sounds pretty boring and flat (dynamically) sounding too, a little too warm and unresolved for my tastes. It does essentially remind me of a slightly better sounding Violectric v200.
Where we disagree is whether they sound good. The HD800 deserves better but whatever floats your boat.
Is there something in the HD800 you like you can't find in another headphone?
I'm listening to it right now, even without the mod, it sounds ****ing good.
But when I take out my LCD-2 & listen to the exact same song, there is no doubt the mid-upper bass & mids sound (recessed by not be the right word) diffused & thin on the HD800 by a long shot. I read plenty of reviews saying the same thing, so I know I'm not crazy.
Makes me second guess every song on how it is supposed to be played.
If I can get the upper bass & mids to tighten up, maybe brought forward a bit, then I wouldn't be so reluctant to go back to the LCD-2.
If I never owned the LCD-2 I would never be mentioning any of this. The HD800 smacks my other headphones I had across the board.
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Had the Bottlehead Crack & if I get the Matrix-M Stage, Valhalla 2 or Vali, I feel that would just be a side-grading & not a true upgrade from the Crack.
On the amps I researched for maybe the past month+ for my $1,200-ish budget, reading through hundreds of pages from dozens of review, impression & comparison threads, I narrowed it down to:
Tube amps:
DNA Sonnett 2, no one has anything bad to say about this, other than that there are better/more expensive amps available. If I see it in the classified again, I might pull the trigger.
EC Super 7, the go to amp for the HD800 under $2,000(?), but I couldn't even find proof that it was put up for sale by anyone in the past 3 years. Not getting this, unless I want to wait it out a long time.
WooAudio WA2, tube-ish sound, warm & smooth, sounds like a tube version of the V200 & apparently has the same weaknesses. I did read from someone that they actual have very different sound signature (was not reiterated further).
Decware CSP2+ & CSP3, highly regarded, but I couldn't find any concrete comparisons with other tube amps or with the HD800.
Solid State Amps:
Auralic Taurus MKII, overall had nothing bad said about it. Seemingly better than the Luxman P-1u & the other solid state amps minus the Black Widow (no comparisons were ever made).
EC Black Widow, one person here vouched for it & was very enthusiastic about it. The only critical comment I found about it vs any other higher end solid state amps was from the Innerfidelity Big Sound shoot out. One of the contestants said the BW made the HD800 sound constricted.
Luxman P1u, besides lacking the transparency & speed of more newer amps, it has been showered with praise from every read. I liked the comments that it does bring out the bass & midrange on the HD800. Though I'm not exactly 100% sure how big of a jump it really is versus the under $1,000 budget amps.
Sennhesier HDVD600, Purrin/Marvey liked it, but impressions from other people said it lacked musicality, being too neutral, lacked bass.
GS-X Mk2, one of the best reviewed amps, but a few people said it being on the bright & analytical side. Not something I'm looking to pair with the HD800.
Violectric V200, described as having a small closed in soundstage, overtly colored sound, smeared details. At the same time it was mentioned as being neutral, really bringing out the bass/mids & taming any perceived brightness.
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1. EC Super 7
There was one (un modded) for sale of HF within the last month.
(I will rob Mister R's house for his modded Super 7 before Hands even gets off his couch.)
2. EC Black Widow
Only one vouched for it?
Hands liked it for his listening and others have called it the best SS amp for HD800 under $1500.
Me?
I listen to Yggy to BW to un modded HD800 nightly.
am only awaiting Amax mod v3.0.
:)p1
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I will vouch for the BW but want to know why the ZD Super is not getting the attention it truly deserves.
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Forget the Luxman. Overpriced as hell and entirely lackluster.
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I will vouch for the BW but want to know why the ZD Super is not getting the attention it truly deserves.
I think there's simply far more BWs in circulation. ZDS is really good with the right driver tube.
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I listen with great enjoyment to my BW with mod HD800 all the time. Using with Gungnir at present. Great match up in my opinion.
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WooAudio WA2, tube-ish sound, warm & smooth, sounds like a tube version of the V200 & apparently has the same weaknesses. I did read from someone that they actual have very different sound signature (was not reiterated further).
I'd recommend striking the WA2 from your list. Except for the beautiful case work, it is arguably a downgrade from your crack. There is no constant current loading the tubes and no room for film output caps. WA2 can still make for enjoyable listening for someone who prefers a smoother tubier sound, but it is definitely less detailed and dynamic than a speedball crack to my ears.
I take it you aren't interested in building a mainline? Among $1,200 tube amps, it is really hard to beat. There aren't that many of them in circulation, but those who have heard it tend to have good things to say. E.g. OJ's comment: http://www.head-fi.org/t/650510/the-new-hd800-impressions-thread/18825#post_11662861 (duly noting that Doc B's tape rig as a source is supposed to be off the charts phenomenal).
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I think there's simply far more BWs in circulation. ZDS is really good with the right driver tube.
Anax, some recommendations please. I am using the stock tubes now. Thanks.
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Anax, some recommendations please. I am using the stock tubes now. Thanks.
Ask Merv about the 6SL7s. He knows what I liked. I'm not really the 6SL7 guy.
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Checked the amp and it uses the Yungsol 6SL7 GT which from all I've read is a very good driver. Apparently there is a GTY as well so off I go to check...thanks
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Forget the Luxman. Overpriced as hell and entirely lackluster.
What if it could be had for $1,200.
My only reference is this thread. Marvey compared the Luxman to EC's Zana Deux, even though he seems to not have tried EC's own solid state Black Widow amp.
I take it you aren't interested in building a mainline? Among $1,200 tube amps, it is really hard to beat. There aren't that many of them in circulation.
If I had the proper skills, I definitely would. Paying someone to assembly it would skyrocket it in the higher end priced DNA & Eddie Current amps.
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Right now, I'm thinking this...
Cheapest and still great: good software with EQ > Geek Out V1 1000 > Modded HD800
Pretty cheap, great value, punchy/big sound, helps with HD800 tonality: Crack/Speedball > Modded HD800
Versatile/practical Solid State, Medium/Higher price but good value: good software with EQ > EC Black Widow > Modded HD800
More expensive/next level tube amp, great control and linearity with some tube goodness: EC Zana Deux Super > Modded HD800
Definitely expensive, special headstage presentation, ability of least-fatiguing sound from HD800: EC Balancing Act w/KR PX-4 > HD800.
Extra notes on Geek Out: I have an order for V2+ and expect that it will be sweeter than the GO 1000 V1 (based on V2 and V2+ prototypes I have borrowed) but the V1 is working very well with higher buffer in Amarra Tidal and no external power, so the form factor is just great and 1000 has plenty of gain.
Extra Notes on the Black Widow: This set-up is good for many types of phones because of amp, does something subtly "liquid" with treble that is really good for dynamic driver and sigma-delta DAC grain)
Extra notes on ZD/ZDS: After hearing the ZD Super, I want to do some mods on my original (non-SE) ZD and try to boost its performance. After getting some parts replaced and output tubes on my original ZD, it isn't as satisfying as it was when it was having problems. It was a bit peakier before, but had some sweet euphony...now it is "okay" but doesn't seem to sound as good as it looks.
Extra Notes on BA: Very tunable with output and driver tubes. New Cinemag transformers (have not heard yet) may tighten up the bass which can be a weakness of BA performance. I do still miss this amp most out of all gear I have sold- but cost, expensive/rare output tubes needed for rolling, and size of this amp/power supply made it hard to keep in a big stable of tube amps/gear without a dedicated room. Not sure if I will eventually get one again or an EC Studio or stay happy with these less expensive options. Trying to be more responsible and selling the BA made me buy three other amps to compensate. :-\ So yeah- it is hard to give up serious goodness but that has led me to try lots of current options and find these to share with you.
Right now I am surprised and happy at how the HD800 can be tamed and enjoyed in many ways that are so satisfying. I have tried to list a few that people can get and should be able to be very happy with.
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I find the choice between the Black Widow and the ZDS difficult. I would probably lean towards towards the ZDS, but the heat from those Russian tubes just wouldn't work during summer up here. I have a speaker amp with 4 of them so I know. So the BW is the most logical choice. At some point I will add the Gumby and may just spend time listening to more music. Of course I could go nuts and have both amps. One for summer the other for winter. But that would be a bit over the top.
Although the nice warm glow from a tube amp on a cold winter night.........
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Marvey compared the Luxman to EC's Zana Deux, even though he seems to not have tried EC's own solid state Black Widow amp.
Because when the comparison by Marv in the OP was written, Black Widow didn't even exist (even the name, the prototype was called Red Top).
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I find the choice between the Black Widow and the ZDS difficult. I would probably lean towards towards the ZDS, but the heat from those Russian tubes just wouldn't work during summer up here. I have a speaker amp with 4 of them so I know. So the BW is the most logical choice. At some point I will add the Gumby and may just spend time listening to more music. Of course I could go nuts and have both amps. One for summer the other for winter. But that would be a bit over the top.
Although the nice warm glow from a tube amp on a cold winter night.........
Hard to say the Black Widow is like a "daily driver" because the performance is so good. But for that "extra bit" of headstage/body/openness and the ownership of an EC tube amp...there are many things that are so compelling for both. I stay happy by having "at least" a ZD and a really great Moth/ZD-Craig-Prototype amp plus the Black Widow. And Geek Outs. Plus my iPhone. Life is good...
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Because when the comparison by Marv in the OP was written, Black Widow didn't even exist (even the name, the prototype was called Red Top).
Marv has said that the Black Widow was "so good" that they looked at the Zana Deux SE again...thus, the newer "Zana Deux Super."
Whether it was that or Marv's curiosity & ever-modding spirit that resulted in ZDS? We may never know.
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Marv has said that the Black Widow was "so good" that they looked at the Zana Deux SE again...thus, the newer "Zana Deux Super."
Whether it was that or Marv's curiosity & ever-modding spirit that resulted in ZDS? We may never know.
That and me telling Craig the ZDSE sounded like shit everytime I saw him. This is how I say hello to friends.
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@Cee-Tee : insightful post thks. I personaly plan to achieve my final HD800 Rig with the DNA Stratus . Different option but I think we share the same quest for our HD800.
I have a question though: why do you advice EQ for some amps and not for the other? that would suggest that both EC ZDS or BA induce some tonal coloration , right?
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I have been extremely happy with my Oppo HA-1. It does everything I need and then some, for a bargain price. Highly recommended.
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I have been extremely happy with my Oppo HA-1. It does everything I need and then some, for a bargain price. Highly recommended.
Sorry, but I owned the Oppo HA-1, and I could not stand my HD800 with it for even 30 seconds on pretty much any track except for the mainstream pop songs.
It is one screachy sounding DAC/Amp, but I'm pretty sure the DAC was at fault.
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I have been extremely happy with my Oppo HA-1. It does everything I need and then some, for a bargain price. Highly recommended.
Neg points once more time. Happy compared to what ? in what conditions ? What did you like precisely ...
Please guys, we're not on Head-fi appreciation thread here. Every opinion is good ro read until it's argumented and when we have an idea of the context. Nobody will blame for you to tell us something we disagree with unless it's not properly argued.
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What are some of your favorite options for kit that would function as a headphone amplifier for the HD800 and as a preamp for a 2.0 speaker setup (for Magnepan 1.6QRs). Will likely feed with either a Gumby or Yggy. Seems like most of the amps on this list are designed to be dedicated headphone amplifiers, and if they have any outputs they are almost afterthoughts. Would prefer a unit that has a remote for convenience.
The list I have put together so far:
- Oppo HA1: Mentioned above. Uses Sabre chip for DAC which I already have in my BDP-105D and would like to move away from. Does take balanced input and has balanced/RCA output. Not sure the amp is the best match for the HD800. Great price though and has a remote.
- Schiit Ragnarok: Has preamp outputs, but when I asked around on Head-Fi people didn't seem to love the Rag functioning just as a preamp. The most-recommended use I found was using the speaker taps to power a pair of monitors and the preouts for one or two powered subwoofers. I emailed Schiit and they did not think the Rag speaker taps would have enough power for the Maggies. No remote.
- Moon Audio 430HA: Probably the best preamp option as it includes trickle-down from their Evolution line of stereo preamps. Some favorable and non-favorable impressions in Inner Fidelity's Big Sound 2015. Remote. Also solid state. Feel most comfortable with this option at this point.
- EDIT: Sennheiser HDVD600: Decent option as well with the balanced output, but no remote (confirmed with local dealer). Have not found any impressions of this as a preamp in various searches.
Any tube options I'm missing? Woo Audio WA2 (no remote)?
Or is the best option to not try and find a combo headphone amp / preamp and rather use different outputs of a DAC to separate headphone and speaker system chains?
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Just gonna throw out the mjolnir 2 as another option. I haven't used it that way (yet), but it has both balanced and SE pre-outs. Its a step back from the Ragnarok, as a detail transfer apparatus for the HD800, which I kind of liked. Pretty sure some pirates used the original mjolnir as a pre- with general satisfaction; can't imagine anything about the mojo2 would be a step back in that regard. Oh, no remote.
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Sorry, but I owned the Oppo HA-1, and I could not stand my HD800 with it for even 30 seconds on pretty much any track except for the mainstream pop songs.
It is one screachy sounding DAC/Amp, but I'm pretty sure the DAC was at fault.
The dac is the bigger offender, but the amp section also leans into chalkboard territory.
- Moon Audio 430HA: Probably the best preamp option as it includes trickle-down from their Evolution line of stereo preamps. Some favorable and non-favorable impressions in Inner Fidelity's Big Sound 2015. Remote. Also solid state. Feel most comfortable with this option at this point.
I spent about two hours on and off auditioning the 430HA at a local shop. I really liked it, moreso than the HA1 and Rag. If only it wasn't so expensive...
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My problem with the 430HA was a lack of absolute clarity. There's always a sort of greyness to the tone. Some described it as a little rolled off sounding. I think it could stand to be a little more resolving as well which is likely tied to the first couple comments. The tonal dynamics just didn't 'pop' from the 'blackground'.
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Moon 430HA, like I said, was too polite, not dynamic enough, could have used a bit more thickness, sort of grey sounding. Not offensive, just not engaging. Boring. I honestly didn't dig into how well it might have been pulling out small details and ambient cues because it was just too boring for me to care. I guess I can give it good marks for being clean and smooth sounding and very wide. Volume knob was nice, and all how granular you could get with the volume steps.
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EDIT: Sennheiser HDVD600: Decent option as well with the balanced output, but no remote (confirmed with local dealer). Have not found any impressions of this as a preamp in various searches.
I had it, if I remember correctly it had fixed gain output from pre outs.
Also as preamp it takes away quite a bit of resolution that got away even with pretty unimpressive s-d dacs I had back then.
Not a bad hp amp, but not a good value either.
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I'd say no to the Oppo. It didn't really do any favors for the hd800s. However, the remote and phone app remote worked fairly well.
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@Cee-Tee : insightful post thks. I personaly plan to achieve my final HD800 Rig with the DNA Stratus . Different option but I think we share the same quest for our HD800.
I have a question though: why do you advice EQ for some amps and not for the other? that would suggest that both EC ZDS or BA induce some tonal coloration , right?
Thanks for the note and the question: I did specifically suggest some EQ with the solid state amps because that gives some flexibility to consider. I have always rolled tubes in my tube amps for presentation/tonality/quality (except with Crack and Vali). That's a plus for tube amps if you take the time and expense. With solid state amps (except for the TCM/FRM filter DAC settings on the Geek Out which do make a difference)- you can't tune them. The Black Widow doesn't tune the HD800 into an HD850- but with mods and EQ, the HD800 on the BW is fantastic and I can + want to listen for long periods. Both solid state amps are practical, good value, and play very well with other phones too. Wanted to share that I am definitely enjoying the HD800 with these amps and even better with some EQ.
Many of us avoid EQ, but it is making things easier for me...
If I were to run a ZD Super in my home? Not sure where I would end up- I would roll tubes first, then see if any EQ is needed. Depends on my DAC, software, tubes, the ZD Super over time. I found the ZD Super at a meet to be just a slight bit thicker and a little more forgiving than the first prototype EC Studio that I heard. Heard it with an Yggy and it seemed linear with good control. Probably a good match for my PWD but have not tried the combo yet. My Balancing Act was so beautiful in the midrange and had sparkle up top, was not fatiguing at all. However, the bass was pretty uncontrolled with my BA tube combo (KR PX-4, TSBGRP) with the older transformers. This was very noticeable against Ragnarok at a different mini-meet, with the Ragnarok having such bass control (but going too far in the other direction, too fast/analytical for me).
My impressions of great tube amps is that they can have a beautiful sound, can have an accurate sound, can be somewhat "tweakable" with tubes or capacitor mods. Tube amps can have a presentation that seems bigger, and more open/natural sounding to me. They are sometimes drier and sometimes more euphonic. The great tube amps still sound bright with HD800, but can also be worked with towards a sweeter/less fatiguing sound.
Solid state amps can be great technically and they can also impart some tonal coloration (I found a B22 build to accentuate HD800 U-shape, for example). Something about the control/attack/speed or etch on some solid state amps can just be fatiguing with the HD800 (with Magni2 I would need to switch to Vali after some time). The Black Widow has a wonderful quality to the treble but also seems tonally neutral so it can show how bright the HD800 are. Add the mods/EQ and I am very happy.
It is riding a fine line with the HD800 a lot of the time. Such capability, but can also bother. I don't like dark phones, so I keep working with the HD800. Not having enough "air" or upper mids are deal-breakers for me. And too much is of course, fatiguing plus unsatisfying because you can't turn the volume up enough to listen to the full recording without that fatigue.
The headstage/presentation may not quite be the same on solid state amps...but the price, practicality, versatility, and the overall quality of them is really good right now and I'm enjoying mine. Can always be seduced by a good tube amp though. :&
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@CEE TEE : Thank you for taking the time to develop. Much appreciated :money:
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So I finally dusted off my vali and tried it with my recently acquired HD800 (for the past couple weeks I've been using asgard2). I feel like there is a little extra "thickness" to the sound with the vali, which is nice, but I also feel like I am losing clarity/picking up a little bit of grain. I guess I need to listen some more to make sure, but if this holds up I prefer the asgard2. I hate grain.
Does anyone else hear the vali having a little bit of grain compared to something like asgard2?
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Yeah the Vali definitely has a bit of that grain
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Wow, that was fast. Thanks OJneg! It's good to get some confirmation since I'm kind of new to comparing amps and dacs. Comparing headphones is much easier.
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About the Vali and grain, I've noticed it improves with warm up so far as grain is concerned... By the way, Is this good with the hd800? http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/products/pulse-xfi-dac-headphone-amplifier
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About the Vali and grain, I've noticed it improves with warm up so far as grain is concerned... By the way, Is this good with the hd800? http://marketplace.lhlabs.com/products/pulse-xfi-dac-headphone-amplifier
Don, short answer, I did not like the pairing.....I own the Xfi and it is great with orthos. Does less than optimal (my definition) with high impedance cans....did not care for the Xfi with HD 6x0 as well.....surprisingly, I like the Geek Out V2 with the HD 6x0..
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im not a cable believer at all (to a certain degree atleast, I believe in using high quality well made etc) but does anyone believe in magic hd800 cables? Considering the results at innerfidelity where people could easily differentiate amps in blind tests with the hd800 but basically not at all with other cans, it got me thinking maybe there could be a bit of a difference with different cables
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I was an anti-cable believer until I heard it with my iems : the Linum BaX does change my H8P signature and Piotr from Custom Art measured it by FR-ing Pro330v2 iems with stock cables and with BaX (and the resulting measurements prooved there is indeed a difference).
However, I'm still not a cable-believer in that, in my experience, it brings differences ranging from 0% to 0,5% (numbers pulled out of my ass to give an idea), and only with some iems, not all. And all the difference I have seen seemed to be restricted to pure signature (the BaX giving an ever so slight V-shape).
As a result, I would not focus on cables to yield anything sensible. And that is without taking into account $$$ to yield those results...
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I was an anti-cable believer until I heard it with my iems : the Linum BaX does change my H8P signature and Piotr from Custom Art measured it by FR-ing Pro330v2 iems with stock cables and with BaX (and the resulting measurements prooved there is indeed a difference).
However, I'm still not a cable-believer in that, in my experience, it brings differences ranging from 0% to 0,5% (numbers pulled out of my ass to give an idea), and only with some iems, not all. And all the difference I have seen seemed to be restricted to pure signature (the BaX giving an ever so slight V-shape).
As a result, I would not focus on cables to yield anything sensible. And that is without taking into account $$$ to yield those results...
One additional consideration re the above: h8p is a multidriver iem, and the crossovers in such phones are very sensitive to/impqcted by changes in impedance. So while a minor difference in resistance between two headphone cables does not afaik produce measurable FR changes in a single driver phone (unless one of the cables is seriously broke), it is unsurprising that changing a cable on a multidriver iem could do so, akin to the various graphs posted re what happens when you add impedance adapters infront of various ba iems.
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Linum cables purposefully add resistance.
Bax- 1.5 ohm
Music- 2.0 ohm
Vocal- 4.5 ohm
I think the numbers above are correct; need to double check the product pages. This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the Super BaX- not only does it not tangle but it's only 0.75 ohm.
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Linum cables purposefully add resistance.
Bax- 1.5 ohm
Music- 2.0 ohm
Vocal- 4.5 ohm
I think the numbers above are correct; need to double check the product pages. This is one of the reasons I'm looking forward to the Super BaX- not only does it not tangle but it's only 0.75 ohm.
Forgive my ignorance, but what does adding resistance to the cable sonicaly?
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Basically the iems/headphone wil see it as increased output impedance of your amp/source, which can react with the iem/headphone frequency response, if they have a varying impedance measurement. Most multi-BA based, and some single BA, iems do. It is most readily noticeable in super sensitive iems like the SE846, Angie, E-Q8, UERM, ER-4S, etc. The individual cable amounts aren't so much on their own but when combined with a Pono or AK240, can be a bit much for those iems I listed.
You can check out Tyll's datasheet downloads for specific models impedance measurements. Added impedance can give the UERM or Angie less treble, the ER-4 and E-Q8 more treble, or make the SE846 bass boosted and wooly. This is why the Super BaX lower resistance is better IMO. Plus it's a fantastically light cable that's practically invisible when wearing/using it; and doesn't tangle like the regular BaX. The Super BaX hasn't been released yet but I've been able to use a prototype and it's my favorite cable to use.
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Anybody here have experience with the OTL amp built by 2359Glenn over at Head-Fi? Supposedly designed and voiced with the HD650 and/or HD800 in mind.
Threads/links for reference:
- 2359glenn | studio (Head-Fi) (http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio)
- Tweak-Fi thread re: OTL amplifier (http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/forums/topics/show/9951469)
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Anybody here have experience with the OTL amp built by 2359Glenn over at Head-Fi? Supposedly designed and voiced with the HD650 and/or HD800 in mind.
Threads/links for reference:
- 2359glenn | studio (Head-Fi) (http://www.head-fi.org/t/600110/2359glenn-studio)
- Tweak-Fi thread re: OTL amplifier (http://www.tweak-fi.com/apps/forums/topics/show/9951469)
I seen a few people place them among the higher tiered amps, but isn't each Glenn OTL customized specifically for each owner? Won't that make each of those amps vary drastically from each other?
Or is the customization just cosmetics?
punit, placed his on par with Woo WA22, Bottlehead Mainline &Cavalli Liquid Glass in his list awhile ago.
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I seen a few people place them among the higher tiered amps, but isn't each Glenn OTL customized specifically for each owner? Won't that make each of those amps vary drastically from each other?
Or is the customization just cosmetics?
punit, placed his on par with Woo WA22, Bottlehead Mainline &Cavalli Liquid Glass in his list awhile ago.
I get the impression that the use of "custom" when describing Glenn's OTL means that it is a custom-built unit by Glenn. Seems to be a standard circuit set up for certain types of tubes, to which the user can then request modifications to add other types of tubes or other features related to the enclosure (balanced jack for convenience, etc.). The base unit is the one mentioned at $650.
I PMd Glenn to ask for more details, but he seems pretty tight-lipped about the circuit design/details, presumably so people don't up and copy it. He did say it came as a result of listening to and upgrading other amp designs and thinking he could do better. Also that it pushes around 2 watts at 300 ohms.
In the comments of Dubstep Girl's review of the Apex Teton for headphone.guru (http://headphone.guru/the-apex-teton-the-ultimate-otl/), Punit asked how it compared to the Teton. She replied:
The Teton sounds a lot different from the Glenn OTL, the Glenn has more dynamics, more bass, and a warmer sound than the Teton, it is not as fast or as transparent as the Teton, the Teton has more refined treble as well. The Glenn amp is more forgiving and I believe its a slightly more powerful amp as well.
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Yeah, well, that reviewer also found the GSX-MK2 to be as liquid as the Teton. GSX-MK2 I heard was rough as hell and artificial sounding.
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Valhalla 2 - had to say it, it's the only amp I have. But the HD800's sound damn good with it to me.
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Valhalla 2 - had to say it, it's the only amp I have. But the HD800's sound damn good with it to me.
I haven't tried the Valhalla 2 yet, but I can't imagine it being as good as people say.
Just for reference, I tried:
Violetric V200
Matrix M Stage
Bottlehead Crack
Schiit Asgard 2
Headroom Desktop Amplifer
iFi Micro iDSD
Maybe a few more that I forgot.
While all of them drive the HD800 to normal listening levels, I never got a 'wow' moment with any of them.
The soundstage does not come close to living up the hype from the reviews & impressions. No any real authority/slam/kick on the low end & (more importantly) no real improvements to the midbass/midrange body.
At best they give middling improvements. 3%, 5%, maybe even up to 10% improvements from one to the other. Nothing drastic.
Valhalla 2 might give an edge over the V200 or Bottlehead Crack, but again it can't be anything drastic.
I almost gave up on the thought that the HD800 can be significantly improved with amps & dacs.
But then again, I go back to the posts I saved that shared similar views as mine on the stock HD800. Sounding thin & diffused & not being impressed with the soundstage either. Then they completely changing their tune when they go the right high end equipment.
I just don't really know where to go next.
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Try mods on the HD800 if its too thin and diffused sounding. Some people are using HD600s and HD650s instead of HD800.
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Try mods on the HD800 if its too thin and diffused sounding. Some people are using HD600s and HD650s instead of HD800.
This. And don't give up after the first modification you try. It took me a while [man understatement of the fucking year] to get to a setup with the HD800 that I was happy with.
Just to parrot TheGame, The Valhalla 2 is a fantastic amp for the HD800.
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V2 isn't a warm tube amp. Either you like the HD800 as it is or you mod the HD800 with the V2.
There's quite a jump once you move up to the big boy tube amps.
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Sorry, but I owned the Oppo HA-1, and I could not stand my HD800 with it for even 30 seconds on pretty much any track except for the mainstream pop songs.
It is one screachy sounding DAC/Amp, but I'm pretty sure the DAC was at fault.
I'm not sure what scratchy sounds like. It could very much be a poor mastering of your music. I find the amp/dac to be incredibly good value with a shitload of features that very few competitors include. I love the remote, the app, and bluetooth/pre-amp output is perfect for streaming music to my stereo.
The HD 800 sounds very clean and powerful through the amp/dac which was sourced from my USB port. Oppo HA-1 can deliver a lot of bass to the HD 800s when called on, and can deliver very crisp and clear highs. I have both vinyl rips and SACDs of the same albums. You can tell apart the vinyl with its dynamics and detail retrieval despite some surface noise. The SACD versions sound cleaned up for sure, but absolutely at the expense of detail. You can't have your cake an eat it too. As for CDs, they are typically a little louder sounding but still very good. Voices are quite realistically rendered.
Objectively the Oppo HA-1 has some killer specs. SNR is through the roof, THD and IMD is lower than the Schiit offerings. Also stereo crosstalk is 120dB in balanced output. Good luck finding specs that good on a unit that costs < $2k, comes with a very competitive DAC, and all the features. I doubt you can get any improvements without forking over three times as much money for standalone units. Even then, how hard do you have to listen to spot the differences? Your headphone mucks with the tone far more than any amp will.
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Just a follow up, after spending the entire day testing out the Violetric V200 & the Matrix M Stage, the advice given was spot on.
The V200 does hide details that the HD800 is capable of. The M-Stage is much more airier & adds some noticeable slam to the bottom end of the HD800. Definitely adds to the strengths of the HD800.
That said, the V200 is still a much better amp (should be too, as it cost 3 times as much).
Music sounds much cleaner, smoother & much less harsh with it than the other amps I had. There is some perceived body being added to bass/mids.
It still exhibits sibilance though.
If it was only more airier & kept the clarity, I would probably stop looking for a amp.
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Marvey :)p7
Is the Mjolnir 2 a good step up from the Valhalla 2 or not enough? I'm getting a Gumby next month (finally) and using the Valhalla 2 for now but next year I'll probably be upgrading there.
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I'd keep Valhalla 2. Make a BIG jump after that to make it worthwhile.