CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 09:41:05 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7

Author Topic: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)  (Read 3219 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« on: August 24, 2015, 05:15:31 AM »

The Doctor dropped by with a bunch of stuff. This is what we had on hand:

Turntables:
  • Rega RP3 / RB303 tonearm / Ortofon Black Cart   $895 (TT and arm) + $755 (cart)
  • Technics SL1200xx? / AT440 Cart  $350-600 (used TT and arm) + $189 (cart)
  • VPI Classic / JMV 10.5 tonearm / Ortofon Black Cart  $2999 (TT and arm) + $755 (cart)
Phono-Pres (from top to bottom per photo):

REFER HERE FOR PHONO COMPARISON: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2742.msg79791.html#msg79791
  • Schiit Mani  $129
  • TC-750 $43.50
  • TC-754 $73.50
  • Rega Fono  $395
  • Eddie Current Transcription Amplifier (out-of-production permanently)
  • MicroMega $269 (will not be discussed - not competitive)
  • Project Phono Box $199 (will not be discussed - not competitive)
Other Permutations:
  • TC-750 w/ AMB Sigma 11 power supply instead of the supplied DC out switcher.
  • TC-754 w/ AMB Sigma 11
Gear and Music
  • Amplification: Eddie Current Zana Deux S (pre-production / prototype). Philips 6SL7 with green lettering (clear and neutralish, perhaps even a bit lean. Purposely chosen for the HD650)
  • Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 with coin mod and rear damping removal.
  • Digital: Theta Data III + Yggdrasil
  • Music: Talking Heads Little Creatures CD (2007 remaster) and vinyl record (picked up from Streetlight Records in San Jose for $299 15-20 years ago. I don't remember). I would have preferred to use Speaking in Tongues because the Doctor was more familiar with it, but the Speaking in Tongues vinyl is very different sounding from the CD remaster that I used at ChangFest 2015.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2015, 05:25:07 PM by Merv »
Logged

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2015, 05:47:46 AM »

Before we begin:
  • YMMV and everything is relative.
  • The Doctor will offer his opinions separately.
  • If you don't agree with me, my army of sycophants will beat you to death by parroting my words
I chose Talking Heads Little Creatures because the CD and vinyl masters were more comparable to each other than not. I'm also very familiar with it and it is one of the albums I most often listen to. I believe I have three copies of the vinyl. Finally, I didn't want to compare recordings which are totally different as this can skew the results too far one way or the other depending upon the recordings used.

Let's first discuss the tables. We used the best two preamps (to be discussed later) on hand to compare tables.

#3 Technics / AT 440:


This table sucks. I've heard this table a million times. Never liked it, never will. I have an old Technics table (not this DJ version) still at my parents house. The DJ table isn't much better. Totally overrated. By this I mean I'd rather listen to Yggy or Gumby. On an overall basis, might be on par with DS Gungnir, but this is really a difficult comparison since the formats' strengths and weaknesses are diametrically opposite. I don't know why people keep recommending this table, but I guess it's because it's cheap and really not much else better at the same price.

The table is heavy. That's a good thing. The lightweight platter and direct drive doesn't do it any favors. Greyish blackground, kind of has a chug chug chug feeling. Don't get that nice stable blackness of the VPI. Bass is horrendous. Gooey warmth and lushness. Soft squishy dynamics. By far the least resolving. Don't know whether to blame the AT440, the arm, or both for lack of resolution. IMO, this is bad turntable sound.
Logged

Anaxilus

  • Phallus Belligerantus Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3493
  • TRS jacks must die
    • The Claw
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2015, 05:54:43 AM »

How did Adam's Technics compare with the one at the Brooks meet? That one was OJ's with the same cart and sounded better than the Yggy. The 440 on my garbage Dual is even more resolving. Makes me wonder about his setup among other things...

You guys didn't roll any carts using the same table?
Logged
"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." - Lao Tzu

"The Claw is our master. The Claw chooses who will go or who will stay." - The LGM Community

"You're like a dull knife, just ain't cuttin'. Talking loud, saying nothing." - James Brown

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2015, 05:59:44 AM »

#2 Rega RP3


This table lies somewhere between the VPI and Technics. Unfortunately closer to the Technics. The weight is overall less than the Technics, but the glass? platter is heavier. From the mids on up, the Rega was more resolving with less sponginess. Hard to say how much was the arm and how much was the Ortofon Black over the AT440. The bass quality was closer to the Technics than the VPI. Not quite as warm and gooey. On an overall basis, I'd say this table is better than DS Gungnir. More resolving, more immediate, but piss poor quality bass, especially when compared to good quality digital bass. It's obvious the Ortofon Black is being very limited by this table.
Logged

shaizada

  • Mr. Vice President of the LAOC Audio Society
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Powder Monkey
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +14/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 99
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2015, 06:00:10 AM »

Both the tables (Technics with the AT440 AND the Rega RP3 with the Ortofon) were brought over to my place.  Though we didn't get to hear them (not enough time), I tweaked both of them to have a more accurate tracking weight.  So they both should be setup pretty well...curious to read what you guys heard.

Doc, thanks again for coming by and bringing my package!  MUCH APPRECIATED!

Looking forward to the rest of this thread :)

 :)p1
Logged

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2015, 06:03:09 AM »

How did Adam's Technics compare with the one at the Brooks meet? That one was OJ's with the same cart and sounded better than the Yggy. The 440 on my garbage Dual is even more resolving. Makes me wonder about his setup among other things...

Hard to say since I don't have any Led Zeppelin records in the house. I only started to like them later because only stoners in high school listened to Zeppelin. Brooks meet had different variables like different amp, recordings, and carts.

You guys didn't roll any carts using the same table?

No. Would have taken too long to setup - it's not plug and play - and I lack precision VTF gauges which are needed for the JMW arm, and other stuff like azimuth is a pain with that arm. No idea what idea VTF would be with the AT440 or if it would even be a good match for the JMW arm. I don't know about the condition of the AT440.
Logged

Anaxilus

  • Phallus Belligerantus Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 3493
  • TRS jacks must die
    • The Claw
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2015, 06:07:25 AM »

I tweaked both of them to have a more accurate tracking weight.

Was alignment verified at all? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to have two different 1200's sound different. Those things have been beat up over the years by god knows what.

We used the Talking Heads vinyl at the Brooks meet. Led Zeppelin was at your house awhile back.
Logged
"If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading." - Lao Tzu

"The Claw is our master. The Claw chooses who will go or who will stay." - The LGM Community

"You're like a dull knife, just ain't cuttin'. Talking loud, saying nothing." - James Brown

shaizada

  • Mr. Vice President of the LAOC Audio Society
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Powder Monkey
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +14/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 99
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2015, 06:09:33 AM »

For the gauge Marv, just buy the Shure tracking force gauge...no need for ANYTHING else really.

For Azimuth, a quick, dirty and actually very good way is this:

1) Make sure the turntable is perfectly level.
2) After aligning the cartridge and making sure the VTA is good,
3) Get a standard CD (not CD-R's but real silver discs) and place on the turntable platter with the label surface down.
4) Lower the needle onto the CD and take a look at the reflection.  You want the cantilever and it's reflection to make a straight line.  If there is any discrepancy, it will be really easy to tell from the reflection if the cartridge azimuth is too much one way or the other.

Enjoy!
Logged

OJneg

  • Audio Ayatollah / Wow and Fluster
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +120/-3
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1245
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2015, 06:10:05 AM »

Gooey warmth and lushness from 1200? WTF? That's literally the opposite of what mine sounds like. I more expected you to call it too lean, especially with AT440.
Logged

shaizada

  • Mr. Vice President of the LAOC Audio Society
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Powder Monkey
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +14/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 99
Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2015, 06:12:05 AM »

Was alignment verified at all? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to have two different 1200's sound different. Those things have been beat up over the years by god knows what.

We used the Talking Heads vinyl at the Brooks meet. Led Zeppelin was at your house awhile back.

Excellent question...I did NOT get a chance to verify the alignment on EITHER tables.  Doc needed to head out for his baseball game, so we just didn't get the time to do a full quality check like I always do for turntables.  Though I've become very efficient at setting up turntables, it takes some time and is a labor of love.  All the details really matter to make the table sing to its best abilities.
Logged
Pages: [1] 2 3 4 5 6 7