CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Vinyl Nutjob World => Topic started by: Marvey on August 24, 2015, 05:15:31 AM
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The Doctor dropped by with a bunch of stuff. This is what we had on hand:
Turntables:
- Rega RP3 / RB303 tonearm / Ortofon Black Cart $895 (TT and arm) + $755 (cart)
- Technics SL1200xx? / AT440 Cart $350-600 (used TT and arm) + $189 (cart)
- VPI Classic / JMV 10.5 tonearm / Ortofon Black Cart $2999 (TT and arm) + $755 (cart)
Phono-Pres (from top to bottom per photo):
REFER HERE FOR PHONO COMPARISON: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2742.msg79791.html#msg79791 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2742.msg79791.html#msg79791)
- Schiit Mani $129
- TC-750 $43.50
- TC-754 $73.50
- Rega Fono $395
- Eddie Current Transcription Amplifier (out-of-production permanently)
- MicroMega $269 (will not be discussed - not competitive)
- Project Phono Box $199 (will not be discussed - not competitive)
Other Permutations:
- TC-750 w/ AMB Sigma 11 power supply instead of the supplied DC out switcher.
- TC-754 w/ AMB Sigma 11
Gear and Music- Amplification: Eddie Current Zana Deux S (pre-production / prototype). Philips 6SL7 with green lettering (clear and neutralish, perhaps even a bit lean. Purposely chosen for the HD650)
- Headphones: Sennheiser HD650 with coin mod and rear damping removal.
- Digital: Theta Data III + Yggdrasil
- Music: Talking Heads Little Creatures CD (2007 remaster) and vinyl record (picked up from Streetlight Records in San Jose for $299 15-20 years ago. I don't remember). I would have preferred to use Speaking in Tongues because the Doctor was more familiar with it, but the Speaking in Tongues vinyl is very different sounding from the CD remaster that I used at ChangFest 2015.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1671.0;attach=10701;image)
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Before we begin:
- YMMV and everything is relative.
- The Doctor will offer his opinions separately.
- If you don't agree with me, my army of sycophants will beat you to death by parroting my words
I chose Talking Heads Little Creatures because the CD and vinyl masters were more comparable to each other than not. I'm also very familiar with it and it is one of the albums I most often listen to. I believe I have three copies of the vinyl. Finally, I didn't want to compare recordings which are totally different as this can skew the results too far one way or the other depending upon the recordings used.
Let's first discuss the tables. We used the best two preamps (to be discussed later) on hand to compare tables.
#3 Technics / AT 440:
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/JRUojIZ4Si2IZJ_xCVyiQIehOLmfYmjfLb9i-7iq6_c-SjaKNo1I-GS1jNsovhuW32LIkS0x-JaAi5-DSuLr8QgBMkRdFWT8SKoIFVlDOqfWhGNZSnjLIpcK6REEaHBIgmpe3aRJmcjLb894ZVoM_AHjmyFNS4cvLbkNZycRfpBbxE1lQMdNcFBsdKHIED5OZOR1yXWheuXYlXSvMPc0_keyuKzmBKT-DEd9W9CGakaOqSvUKwoA5PEidmea4bHEOp_adk8vuifTM61CxrEyuxXC-pCGbOWFQegtQGVc2o1DuZDmdVnn513zqElde7PiXhF1s8QZ1orOIWc8qPXWchYtkflyU2YT7X4HksOYArkKfIXcG8HuWmbiYCCrkNtVN1ieiHdpTlUYx6LATpY93Kw7U95QQUUdiCXmZZf0Waqh33g1WjTkekQsZSxqzvEaJVQP464PP3b8Ocou6Iy-BWzXbmX8m5_BSBneJlrJKW9C3sNKR6XWVcuL0gbDKGhhpyS_2w=w800-h533-no)
This table sucks. I've heard this table a million times. Never liked it, never will. I have an old Technics table (not this DJ version) still at my parents house. The DJ table isn't much better. Totally overrated. By this I mean I'd rather listen to Yggy or Gumby. On an overall basis, might be on par with DS Gungnir, but this is really a difficult comparison since the formats' strengths and weaknesses are diametrically opposite. I don't know why people keep recommending this table, but I guess it's because it's cheap and really not much else better at the same price.
The table is heavy. That's a good thing. The lightweight platter and direct drive doesn't do it any favors. Greyish blackground, kind of has a chug chug chug feeling. Don't get that nice stable blackness of the VPI. Bass is horrendous. Gooey warmth and lushness. Soft squishy dynamics. By far the least resolving. Don't know whether to blame the AT440, the arm, or both for lack of resolution. IMO, this is bad turntable sound.
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How did Adam's Technics compare with the one at the Brooks meet? That one was OJ's with the same cart and sounded better than the Yggy. The 440 on my garbage Dual is even more resolving. Makes me wonder about his setup among other things...
You guys didn't roll any carts using the same table?
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#2 Rega RP3
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/tT50XmNvWL6esK6AOgH_ZiXr2Yus1jVi3ANJKAJ05jBXuSGOEzjoAc4N3qmc_3ErcySNiAMNHRHpdKUSMvoM0X8eqPlDV97n-Mbx0CQNPQDtNDne3GjdPzKKp_-erCOQhLqjYi_gChXpCI6ffwTfEzyUvU4GlIhZ8xDz1LwwPHYIHfBiIMHi428bjZA-VcmONyrAKfyVrHXq9ShDhRldDvfH8F1MqF_SbUBwlCY54o1TQzmvTWL3flf6znby0f1QfkJQRebX8vh8l-zB-4F1rSDa98VDfskvb4bv736NVYaHSU-8d_eTKgRqlrGBXm_Z1_-gitKYgHrSVVi2pENDiH-4X56pyC-NIfZQiHLB-yRvN-rZKKPSNqdFaSEmnWOv1u1kTwhye20Gutk-xJxTuUBAlZxeLJuSpRm8eIxZGro70GSulcCGrs9PPzWq30T-SDc8Lz49JqAgIly2F00Zt9fnsx1bN9AwdnBY-WNUevxhrUQxj_VwpoZgUv_epaX0xbWs2Q=w800-h533-no)
This table lies somewhere between the VPI and Technics. Unfortunately closer to the Technics. The weight is overall less than the Technics, but the glass? platter is heavier. From the mids on up, the Rega was more resolving with less sponginess. Hard to say how much was the arm and how much was the Ortofon Black over the AT440. The bass quality was closer to the Technics than the VPI. Not quite as warm and gooey. On an overall basis, I'd say this table is better than DS Gungnir. More resolving, more immediate, but piss poor quality bass, especially when compared to good quality digital bass. It's obvious the Ortofon Black is being very limited by this table.
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Both the tables (Technics with the AT440 AND the Rega RP3 with the Ortofon) were brought over to my place. Though we didn't get to hear them (not enough time), I tweaked both of them to have a more accurate tracking weight. So they both should be setup pretty well...curious to read what you guys heard.
Doc, thanks again for coming by and bringing my package! MUCH APPRECIATED!
Looking forward to the rest of this thread :)
:)p1
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How did Adam's Technics compare with the one at the Brooks meet? That one was OJ's with the same cart and sounded better than the Yggy. The 440 on my garbage Dual is even more resolving. Makes me wonder about his setup among other things...
Hard to say since I don't have any Led Zeppelin records in the house. I only started to like them later because only stoners in high school listened to Zeppelin. Brooks meet had different variables like different amp, recordings, and carts.
You guys didn't roll any carts using the same table?
No. Would have taken too long to setup - it's not plug and play - and I lack precision VTF gauges which are needed for the JMW arm, and other stuff like azimuth is a pain with that arm. No idea what idea VTF would be with the AT440 or if it would even be a good match for the JMW arm. I don't know about the condition of the AT440.
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I tweaked both of them to have a more accurate tracking weight.
Was alignment verified at all? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to have two different 1200's sound different. Those things have been beat up over the years by god knows what.
We used the Talking Heads vinyl at the Brooks meet. Led Zeppelin was at your house awhile back.
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For the gauge Marv, just buy the Shure tracking force gauge...no need for ANYTHING else really.
For Azimuth, a quick, dirty and actually very good way is this:
1) Make sure the turntable is perfectly level.
2) After aligning the cartridge and making sure the VTA is good,
3) Get a standard CD (not CD-R's but real silver discs) and place on the turntable platter with the label surface down.
4) Lower the needle onto the CD and take a look at the reflection. You want the cantilever and it's reflection to make a straight line. If there is any discrepancy, it will be really easy to tell from the reflection if the cartridge azimuth is too much one way or the other.
Enjoy!
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Gooey warmth and lushness from 1200? WTF? That's literally the opposite of what mine sounds like. I more expected you to call it too lean, especially with AT440.
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Was alignment verified at all? Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised to have two different 1200's sound different. Those things have been beat up over the years by god knows what.
We used the Talking Heads vinyl at the Brooks meet. Led Zeppelin was at your house awhile back.
Excellent question...I did NOT get a chance to verify the alignment on EITHER tables. Doc needed to head out for his baseball game, so we just didn't get the time to do a full quality check like I always do for turntables. Though I've become very efficient at setting up turntables, it takes some time and is a labor of love. All the details really matter to make the table sing to its best abilities.
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I only listened to one recording at Brooks with OJ's setup. While his setup had the TC750 + AMB PS, it's possible what I liked was more the specific vinyl recording. And even then, there was no comparison of the same (or similarly mastered) recording to the Yggy.
For this run, all things being equal, including the recordings more or less, the Technics doesn't cut it. I didn't even think OJ's Technics was all that great with the Zepplin, even with the Manley pre at the mini-meet at my place. Even compared to the Project with the POS thin acrylic platter, the Technics was only different, not better. Keep in mind that the Talking Heads album I used has a lot of bass energy. Adam did mention the lesser tables do tend to do better with recordings with less bass. Also, keep in mind that everything is relative to what was on hand.
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This table sucks. I've heard this table a million times. Never liked it, never will. I have an old Technics table (not this DJ version) still at my parents house. The DJ table isn't much better. Totally overrated. By this I mean I'd rather listen to Yggy or Gumby. On an overall basis, might be on par with DS Gungnir, but this is really a difficult comparison since the formats' strengths and weaknesses are diametrically opposite. I don't know why people keep recommending this table, but I guess it's because it's cheap and really not much else better at the same price.
The table is heavy. That's a good thing. The lightweight platter and direct drive doesn't do it any favors. Greyish blackground, kind of has a chug chug chug feeling. Don't get that nice stable blackness of the VPI. Bass is horrendous. Gooey warmth and lushness. Soft squishy dynamics. By far the least resolving. Don't know whether to blame the AT440, the arm, or both for lack of resolution. IMO, this is bad turntable sound.
I assume we're talking stock SL-1200MKII here? The DJ-spec SL-1200 has a cult around it that for whatever reason has elevated what was never intended to be any sort of audiophile table to godlike status, that it definitely doesn't deserve. There's also a cult around all things direct drive, and a mistaken belief that DD > belts no matter what. It's one of the easiest DDs to get that isn't Chinese trash, which is why it's still so popular. It's marginally better than entry level tables like the Pro-Ject Debut and Rega RP1 (yes, they're even worse) but that's it. One of its major weaknesses is the stock EPA-120 tonearm, which is basically shit. It's actually an improvement over the EPA-110 from the prior SL-1100 which was PURE dog shit, but that doesn't make it good.
With a tonearm swap/re-wire, new bearing, new platter, and new power supply, the MKII actually isn't all that bad. All of that stuff costs a lot of money though, and I just don't see the sense in pouring that into an SL-1200.
http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/evo.html
By the way, Stereophile raved about the "Pioneer" PLX-1000, a crappy, shoddily built SL-1200 clone, ranking it "borderline Class B" in their recommended components section. So.... yeah.
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Gooey warmth and lushness from 1200? WTF? That's literally the opposite of what mine sounds like. I more expected you to call it too lean, especially with AT440.
Yeah. It's fast and pretty precise.
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Might be the Doctor's fuzzy matt on his SL1200. I'm serious.
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Might be the Doctor's fuzzy matt on his SL1200. I'm serious.
Fuzzy mat? Oh god, it didn't come with the thick rubber one?? Doh.
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At this point I've had audiophiles tell me that the 1200 sounds every which way, so it's hard to keep track. Some internet reviewers say it has poor dynamics...then I put on some UB40 and the sound practically punches me in the face. Fremer says it has poor wow and flutter and the whole cogging BS, but then I compare to any belt where you can hear the lack of precision of those things and how it colors the music, in a sort of euphonic/audiophile-y way. Then I hear some gurus talk about how the 1200/direct drives have no bass. Supposedly belts have a lot more "sustain" (See: ringing and lack of control) on those bass notes :-Z Now I'm hearing the 1200 does have bass, but it's all gooey and shitty. facepalm
I get the sense of a slight lack of refinement or even "grain" that's imparted on the sound. It's along the order of magnitude that perhaps a cable/connector upgrade to take care of. It's actually probably the arm like Dave says. But all the rest of this shit that people say I am just not hearing it. I think people are either hearing their records for the first time or hearing other deficiencies in the chain. Enjoy the sound of belts I guess :)p5
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From article linked below.
"I took the thicker Technics platter mat and put it on the Pioneer's platter, and the thinner Pioneer mat on the Technics. You won't believe what happened. That champagne midrange moved over from the Technics to the Pioneer, and a tighter, more damped sound emerged from the Technics."
There's more mat comments in the article as well.
While I'm no Technics DJ fanboy or DD nazi, I find the hate for direct drive equally ignorant and misinformed by audiophile belt snobs. Simply haven't heard any issues with cogging or motor noise with OJ's TT. Again, it's his TT, not mine so I have no skin in the game. My Dual uses an idler which I CAN actually hear. Go figure.
By the way, Stereophile raved about the "Pioneer" PLX-1000, a crappy, shoddily built SL-1200 clone, ranking it "borderline Class B" in their recommended components section. So.... yeah.
I don't know what version of the article you read, but here's what I took away from that one. A lot of it has matched many of my impressions.
http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4#o19TkSdmOFP982bJ.97
"With the PLX-1000's platter removed, I could see that its motor mounts and interior construction were completely different from (but possibly sturdier and more serviceable than) those of the venerable Technics machine. Musically and mechanically, the new PLX-1000 seems more heavy-duty and sure-footed than the vintage, near-mint SL-1200MK2 I borrowed for comparisons."
"Just for fun, we played Steve Guttenberg's original pressing, bought in 1965, of Beatles for Sale (LP, Parlophone PCS 3062) on the belt-drive VPI Traveler ($1199) with an Ortofon 2M Black cartridge ($799), and on the Pioneer PLX-1000 with the Zu DL-103 ($519). Normally, the Ortofon, with its sensitive nude Shibata stylus, is a very refined, uncolored, low-distortion cartridge; and normally, the Zu DL-103, with its conical stylus, is a looser, more colorful, but more generalized-sounding cartridge. Today, those roles were reversed. Bass through the Traveler was slightly woolly and puffy, while bass through the Pioneer felt controlled, tuneful, and detailed. (I'm certain much of this difference can be attributed to the Pioneer's superior vibration isolation on my extremely rigid equipment rack.) The VPI's midrange sounded more recessed and dark than the brighter, more focused sound of the PLX-1000. During this comparison, the VPI had the most refined and enjoyable top octaves while the Pioneer the most realistic bottom octaves. Overall, the Pioneer's eager, smiling handshake made the VPI seem a little shy and dutiful."
"Next, we replaced the VPI with Mike Trei's like-new Technics SL-1200MK2 and played a bunch of records using only the Zu Denon cartridge and the excellent Schiit Audio Mani phono stage ($129), designed by Mike Moffat. Out of curiosity, we used Dr. Feickert Analogue's Adjust+ test record and iPhone app to measure the speed accuracy of the SL-1200M2 and PLX-1000. Both 'tables performed better than their published specifications."
"I tried to forget about the PLX-1000 and just enjoy playing records—until I got restless and began wondering how the brand-new Pioneer would compare with my ancient (idler drive) Thorens TD 124.
Right now, I wish I could say something like, "The Pioneer was good, but not quite as good as my reference TD 124." But I can't. Both 'tables actively disarmed my critical facilities and let me focus on the music—which is the main reason I like them. My expertly restored Thorens was obviously noisier than the Pioneer, but even so, it seemed less noticeable in the reproduction chain than the PLX-1000. Meanwhile, the Pioneer added an extra clear octave each of bass and treble that made every record sound richer, more open, and alive. The Pioneer's added frequency extension let me look deeper into musical soundscapes."
"Compared to the best belt-drive turntables, the Pioneer PLX-1000 emitted a barely perceptible forced weightiness. I had to listen very carefully to hear this. The effect was like a nervous unsuppleness that pushed ever so lightly against my consciousness while music was playing. I've noticed this forced weightiness with almost every direct-drive turntable—except maybe old Mitchell A. Cotter's B-1, the Victor (JVC) TT-101, and the new VPI. Could this be what those belt-drive fanatics are complaining about?
But wait! Before all you überperceptive rubber-band practitioners get too cocky, I should point out that belt-driven 'tables have their own variant of this subtle phenomenon. To my ears, all but the most elite belt-drives surround the musical flow with an unmistakable, vacuous, hollow, unnaturally relaxed, false emptiness that reminds me of an uncomfortable silence in a romantic conversation. This false emptiness can also feel slightly off the beat."
"Yes, people, the Pioneer PLX-1000 plays music like a high-torque direct-drive record-playing machine. That is why I enjoyed it so much. It gave tangible force and soulful energy to pop, R&B, jazz, and electronica. Belts can't touch the PLX-1000's excitement, naturally formed detail, and clearly expressed forward momentum. And who could have imagined? This new Pioneer also showcases the complex tonal character and elegant structures of classical music better than any affordable belt-drive I've experienced. So . . ."
Based on this, my own admittedly limited experience and other readings, it seems I would need to spend more than $7000 to get better than borderline class B and outperform a $600 Direct Drive TT on a consistent basis.
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At this point I've had audiophiles tell me that the 1200 sounds every which way... blah blah blah, insane rant against belt drives, professed love for SL1200 direct drive...
It's all relative. If it makes you feel any better, it's possible the Doctor's SL1200 is screwed up, bad bearings, etc. A lot of this stuff is old. We really have no idea the condition they are in.
On the DD vs. belt drive, it's more implementation and trade-offs. I don't think you can make generalizations about it when you've only owned one budget DD TT and listened to one budget belt drive TT for a collective total of 12 minutes. Motor or other extraneous noise become more obvious with MC or more resolving carts. Then again, the way you're headed, you are probably going to say that MM carts are all that he necessary.
The fact is, if you are happy where you are at, you don't need to worry about it. It's actually a good thing.
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I don't think you can make generalizations about it when you've only owned one budget DD TT and listened to one budget belt drive TT for a collective total of 12 minutes. Motor or other extraneous noise become more obvious with MC or more resolving carts. Then again, the way you're headed, you are probably going to say that MM carts are all that he necessary.
I don't think he'd say that considering he's building his own MC phono pre. I'm also pretty sure there isn't one budget belt drive TT within 20 square miles of Shaizada's house.
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Hey all, just got home a few of hours ago from SoCal. I agree with Marv, the Rega and the Technics lacked dynamics, smoothness and the tight bass of the VPI.
I don't really think DD vs belt matters a ton, it's more about implementation rather than the idea behind it, like anything else.
I've come to the conclusion that one of the most important things in vinyl is weight: weight of the plinth, weight of the platter and weight of the clamp. Sure, there's a lot that can change from finessing, but still.
Shaizada showed me the difference just in clamps and I was annoyingly surprised. I didn't think it'd make a difference, but it did with the blackness and macro dynamics.
I'm sure my Technics could benefit from a better mat and I'll give that a shot. But Merv and I both heard a distinct difference with each one and the VPI Classic sounded better. Mind you I wanted my Rega to easily best it. Or even the Technics so I could sell the Rega and be happy, but yeah, weight seems to matter.
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I'm also pretty sure there isn't one budget belt drive TT within 20 square miles of Shaizada's house.
I can verify this. :)
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I've used/heard a lot of 1200s in my DJ gigs. Usually they have Shure M44-7 carts but some have Orfoton Concorde DJ. The M44-7 and Ortofon Concorde carts are quite forgiving in terms of setup. You have to really fuck it up badly before they start seriously misbehaving.
I would characterize the sound of these tables/cart combos as bloomy and slightly uncontrolled in the bass with average/mediocre mids and a slightly dull top end. Pleasing to listen to (nothing going wrong in the sound signature) but if your primary concern is sound quality it's easy to do better for the same money in the used hifi market.
BTW I have a Simaudio 110LP phono stage sitting on my shelf unused for about a year. If you guys want to use it for your next round of shootouts hit me with a PM. I'm curious what other people will think of it. I think it's pretty good for entry level; the wall wart PSU seems to be the limiting factor. You might be able to use the AMB Sigma 11 with it for a big improvement....
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"With the PLX-1000's platter removed, I could see that its motor mounts and interior construction were completely different from (but possibly sturdier and more serviceable than) those of the venerable Technics machine. Musically and mechanically, the new PLX-1000 seems more heavy-duty and sure-footed than the vintage, near-mint SL-1200MK2 I borrowed for comparisons."
Their review sample also arrived with loose tonearm bearings, good thing Turntable guru Mike Trei was in the house to fix it. I'm sure everyone has their own turntable guru right? Or does Pioneer send one out to you when you buy one? Platter wobble is also a problem from what I've read.
Aside from that, the Stanton, Reloop, A-T, and various other DJ-5500 rebadges including the PLX-1000 are "fine," and probably a match for whatever the equivalent Rega or Pro-Ject is, but that's as far as I'd go. The fact that a VPI Traveler couldn't beat it says more about the Traveler than it does about the Pioneer. I've never been impressed by VPI's budget tables.
For the record, I've got nothing at all against direct drive, or Pioneer for that matter. As I said, a heavily modded SL-1200 can actually be a formidable table, I'm just not sure it's worth the money it costs to get it there. I've also heard proper Pioneer tables, like the PL-707, which are quite good, as are many of the higher end JVC, Yamaha, and Kenwood DDs from the late '70s and early '80s. Tables like the Exclusive P3 and Kenwood L-07D could probably send more than a few $5K belt drives home.
https://youtu.be/mNzMcH2ZbtU
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Their review sample also arrived with loose tonearm bearings, good thing Turntable guru Mike Trei was in the house to fix it. I'm sure everyone has their own turntable guru right? Or does Pioneer send one out to you when you buy one? Platter wobble is also a problem from what I've read.
Aside from that, the Stanton, Reloop, A-T, and various other DJ-5500 rebadges including the PLX-1000 are "fine," and probably a match for whatever the equivalent Rega or Pro-Ject is, but that's as far as I'd go. The fact that a VPI Traveler couldn't beat it says more about the Traveler than it does about the Pioneer. I've never been impressed by VPI's budget tables.
For the record, I've got nothing at all against direct drive, or Pioneer for that matter. As I said, a heavily modded SL-1200 can actually be a formidable table, I'm just not sure it's worth the money it costs to get it there. I've also heard proper Pioneer tables, like the PL-707, which are quite good, as are many of the higher end JVC, Yamaha, and Kenwood DDs from the late '70s and early '80s. Tables like the Exclusive P3 and Kenwood L-07D could probably send more than a few $5K belt drives home.
https://youtu.be/mNzMcH2ZbtU
UH-OH!!! Who's pokemon will win this battle... Piss poor pro-ject ( which I humbly own) or the terrible Technics... Lol
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I went through 3 LP1240s before I found one without platter wobble.
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It's all relative. If it makes you feel any better, it's possible the Doctor's SL1200 is screwed up, bad bearings, etc. A lot of this stuff is old. We really have no idea the condition they are in.
On the DD vs. belt drive, it's more implementation and trade-offs. I don't think you can make generalizations about it when you've only owned one budget DD TT and listened to one budget belt drive TT for a collective total of 12 minutes. Motor or other extraneous noise become more obvious with MC or more resolving carts. Then again, the way you're headed, you are probably going to say that MM carts are all that he necessary.
The fact is, if you are happy where you are at, you don't need to worry about it. It's actually a good thing.
wtf seriously? I've heard plenty of these things. I was getting into vinyl before I joined this forum. Rega RP1, RP3, RB303 on custom plinths, Pro-ject carbon, debut carbon, ATLP120 DD's, cheap plastic-built belts (Denon, AT)
BTW, I've heard a few conflicting opinions on MC's too. And I'm very open to the possibility that they're better than MM's. No idea how bringing those up is supposed to support your argument. Strawman detected. Your average MM is at least good enough to resolve the inaccuracies of most belt drives poo
The hard part is just trying to reconcile your impressions with what I know my 1200 sounds like. If you had some other cart or phono it would be easier to dismiss. I'd like to think Anax would tell me if it was utter garbage, or maybe he's just sucking my dick so I build random electronics for him.
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What is there to dismiss? You have been comparing one kind of turd (budget dd) to another kind (budget bd).
Next level up from what youve heard would be the VPI Scouts with the acrylic platters and separate lightweight motor pillars, which still were not good enough for me personally. The Linn LP12 came close with mods, but after getting all decked out, it was stupid expensive.
I'm no fan of the Rega 1, 2, or 3 series. I've owned two Rega 3 series with various arms and in the end sold them. Never again.
I've been out of this for a while. But the VPI Classic series caught my eye because they shifted to all metal platters and decided to secure the motor to the plinth. A more cost effective solution than an external motor encased in DU. I find this solution better than the prior VPI lower end Scout, Scoutmasters, Aries of the years past.
In short, the SL1200 and Rega 3 and Projects are not good enough for me personally to make a radical switch from digital. I'm not looking for another budget table.
I like value and in some ways I am cheap. If the SL1200 was any good, I would have stolen Craig's by now.
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Tables under $2K are very difficult to make not suck. The Michell TecnoDec is OK, the Origin-Live Aurora isn't terrible, SOTA Satellite is decent. None of these tables are what I would call "brilliant" but for the money you can certainly do a lot worse. If I was limited to around $1.5K though, I'd probably skip all of these and just buy one of the Vinyl Nirvana Thorens tables.
http://vinylnirvana.com/vintage-turntables-for-sale/
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What is there to dismiss? You have been comparing one kind of turd (budget dd) to another kind (budget bd).
Next level up from what youve heard would be the VPI Scouts with the acrylic platters and separate lightweight motor pillars, which still were not good enough for me personally. The Linn LP12 came close with mods, but after getting all decked out, it was stupid expensive.
I'm no fan of the Rega 1, 2, or 3 series. I've owned two Rega 3 series with various arms and in the end sold them. Never again.
I've been out of this for a while. But the VPI Classic series caught my eye because they shifted to all metal platters and decided to secure the motor to the plinth. A more cost effective solution than an external motor encased in DU. I find this solution better than the prior VPI lower end Scout, Scoutmasters, Aries of the years past.
In short, the SL1200 and Rega 3 and Projects are not good enough for me personally to make a radical switch from digital. I'm not looking for another budget table.
I like value and in some ways I am cheap. If the SL1200 was any good, I would have stolen Craig's by now.
When you use the phrase "bad turntable sound" I dismiss. Also when you say Pro-ject and 1200 are just "different"...yeah no
I'm sure the VPI is excellent and destroys everything
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I think people are making mountains out of molehills. I'd stay calm and look at comparing TT's w/o fuzzy mats first before drawing general conclusions about anything. Clearly using a $10 piece of lint instead of the stock factory mat is cause enough to refrain from concluding anything if impressions here and elsewhere are any indication.
I wish OJ's table wasn't in the middle of waiting for a recable to ship so we could have met up and parsed through all the variables.
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Anyone know where I can get a mat? This one seems to be for newer models and is too big: RGS0008
I'm sure it'll improve the sound, I'd be shocked if this was the panacea for all things ailing the 1200.
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My guess would be Ebay. You should pm OJ for maybe size and if his has a part#.
I'm beginning to wonder if the non quartz locked ones might sound better. OJ's is a mk1.
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So what happened with the phonos?
Their review sample also arrived with loose tonearm bearings, good thing Turntable guru Mike Trei was in the house to fix it. I'm sure everyone has their own turntable guru right? Or does Pioneer send one out to you when you buy one? Platter wobble is also a problem from what I've read.
Yes, I'm quite familiar with that video and read about the tonearms. Kind of like buying a used 1200 that might be decades old, tossed around and also have loose bearings. I linked you the other video before of the reloop next to a 1200 side by side playing the same stuff everything being equal and the Harbin sounded better to me. Tell me that the 1200 sounds better in the video below. As a result I'm not really keen on 'having' to find a vintage 1200.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPSvzgsB7UM
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When you use the phrase "bad turntable sound" I dismiss. Also when you say Pro-ject and 1200 are just "different"...yeah no.
They are both bad. Keep in mind I had the shitty platter and a Sumiko Oyster cart on the project when we compared with the same preamps.
I never said the VPI Classic kills all. As it is right now, I suspect the VPI is limiting what the Ortofon can do.
Also, stop acting like a bitch on HF just because I never thought your precious SL1200 was good enough for my personal use. What we should concentrate on is why Adam's SL1200 sounded the way it did.
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Anyone know where I can get a mat? This one seems to be for newer models and is too big: RGS0008
I'm sure it'll improve the sound, I'd be shocked if this was the panacea for all things ailing the 1200.
Try the Trans-fi Resomat. A friend of mine has one on his modded SL-1200, works quite well.
http://www.trans-fi.com/resomat.htm
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There is no way your VPI Classic is a limiting factor for any cartridge you put on it, unless there is a resonance mismatch. I've heard the Classic 1 with a Koetsu Coralstone, Airtight Supreme, Clearaudio Goldfinger and many others. It brought out everything those carts are known for.
If it isn't killing most of the turntables out there, something is not setup correctly or optimized properly. You have bought a KILLER turntable, you just don't know it yet :) it will be years before you outgrow that machine.
When u r ready, :&, you need the SDS or the new Roadrunner supply, adjustable VTA tower upgrade, periphery ring, clamp. You will not need another turntable in your life pretty much.
You bought really well!
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ok
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You do realize Adam was there and heard the same thing.
Don't need to be this way. Usually when there are discrepancies like this, something is amiss. We'll find out.
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Yeah, I suspect something is amiss (I have wondered this since I did the comparo), but it's been nothing obvious.
That said, having heard several tables (6-7) recently, the 1200 was the saddest of them all. It wasn't really close and I haven't harbored a deep hatred of them until yesterday. And even then it's only growing.
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We already knew you had issues with your 1200 since you pm'd us about not getting the same results you heard with OJ's table when you tried the same phono and cart.
I have to agree with a lot of what was said in Dave's platter mat link. So far I can't say I find myself a fan of clamps at all. They change sound but I don't tend to like what happens. That mat looks interesting. I wish there were numbers to back up the claims as it seems it would have been easy to actually do so. That said, it may just work if you can adjust the VTA to accommodate it.
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When I get back from the DC area, I'll grab Craig's Technics table and give it a go. Not sure what carts he has, but he mentioned he had quite a few good ones already mounted to headshells.
So many donut shops around here.
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Cholesterol and STDs. Sounds like DC to me.
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There is no way your VPI Classic is a limiting factor for any cartridge you put on it, unless there is a resonance mismatch. I've heard the Classic 1 with a Koetsu Coralstone, Airtight Supreme, Clearaudio Goldfinger and many others. It brought out everything those carts are known for.
If it isn't killing most of the turntables out there, something is not setup correctly or optimized properly. You have bought a KILLER turntable, you just don't know it yet :) it will be years before you outgrow that machine.
When u r ready, :& , you need the SDS or the new Roadrunner supply, adjustable VTA tower upgrade, periphery ring, clamp. You will not need another turntable in your life pretty much.
You bought really well!
Thanks for your advice. I've been taking notes and reading up on things. Good to know where the table stands. Perhaps part of it is that the cart I have is new and still breaking in. While already more resolving and dynamic than digital, I still get a feeling that there's still just a little bit more contained in those grooves. Hard to describe, but it's this sense of discomfort or perhaps strain knowing it's there, but just not getting to it all. I guess I'll give it another 30 more records and see.
On the speed control, I assume that if I don't go for the SDS but instead the Roadrunner, I'd have to opt for the hefty 15W Eagle version? My thinking is based upon what you said about the tweak with the HRX pulley and two belts. My concern for future-proofing is that running two belts, while providing better hold on the platter, might also introduce motor noise, therefore I may eventually need to go with the quieter 300 RPM motor (instead of the 600 RPM that I have now.) Supposedly the quieter motor sucks more juice, therefore the standard Falcon version won't work.
The VTA tower looks handy. Too many records at too many thicknesses. One thing I've noticed is how sensitive this table is to minor adjustments. This is something that is new to me. I actually took the effort to level it out precisely, which made a difference. Also played with VTA, and it seems HW's recommendations on just not using it and increasing VTF a slight bit works better. More lively and less reserved sounding. I can people preferring it the other way though.
The clamp makes a huge difference. Sometimes I forget to put it on (actually happened when Adam was here), and I'm like, hmm, doesn't sound as focused or resolving, until I noticed I didn't put it on. I figure the heavy duty center weights like the HRX one are better? What do you think about the super heavy center weights from TTW? Do you think they are too much (I think one of them is 3 or 5 lbs.). A heavier clamp is an easy decision since they aren't that expensive.
The periphery ring is quite a lot. It appears from the indent on the edge platter that the ring can actually also fit on top of the platter (and a record can put on top of both the ring and platter -- when I am lazy). I am thinking about machining this part myself because it is the priciest piece.
Finally what do you think of the one piece 3D printed JMW tonearm?
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The clamp makes a huge difference. Sometimes I forget to put it on (actually happened when Adam was here), and I'm like, hmm, doesn't sound as focused or resolving, until I noticed I didn't put it on.
I've actually wondered if this would spice up my Rega or my Technics
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I've actually wondered if this would spice up my Rega or my Technics
I think it's going to be relative to the table, record, weight/size/shape of the clamp, etc. etc. Clamping is definitely not a 100% universal benefit IME.
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Anyone know where I can get a mat? This one seems to be for newer models and is too big: RGS0008
I'm sure it'll improve the sound, I'd be shocked if this was the panacea for all things ailing the 1200.
Here? (http://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm)
EDIT: They are out of platter mats. Boo.
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I can lend my 1200 to see if it is as bad as you guys are experiencing with drfindley's. Give me a ring. The A/B might help.
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Thanks for your advice. I've been taking notes and reading up on things. Good to know where the table stands. Perhaps part of it is that the cart I have is new and still breaking in. While already more resolving and dynamic than digital, I still get a feeling that there's still just a little bit more contained in those grooves. Hard to describe, but it's this sense of discomfort or perhaps strain knowing it's there, but just not getting to it all. I guess I'll give it another 30 more records and see.
2M Black right? The Shibata on that is very sensitive to VTA/SRA. It may be that you just need to tweak it a bit more, or it could just be break in. Your table definitely isn't holding you back. I've heard it with a Koetsu Rosewood Sig and it was great.
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I can lend my 1200 to see if it is as bad as you guys are experiencing with drfindley's. Give me a ring. The A/B might help.
Maybe you should come over or I over there and let's do a 1200 comparo. It'd be great if it was nothing other than a mat
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Thanks for your advice. I've been taking notes and reading up on things. Good to know where the table stands. Perhaps part of it is that the cart I have is new and still breaking in. While already more resolving and dynamic than digital, I still get a feeling that there's still just a little bit more contained in those grooves. Hard to describe, but it's this sense of discomfort or perhaps strain knowing it's there, but just not getting to it all. I guess I'll give it another 30 more records and see.
Definitely give the cartridge a good workout so it all breaks in properly. If it is a brand new cartridge, it takes time to settle in...just keep playing records :) We can revisit it later and see what might be still holding you back in accordance with what you are looking for.
On the speed control, I assume that if I don't go for the SDS but instead the Roadrunner, I'd have to opt for the hefty 15W Eagle version? My thinking is based upon what you said about the tweak with the HRX pulley and two belts. My concern for future-proofing is that running two belts, while providing better hold on the platter, might also introduce motor noise, therefore I may eventually need to go with the quieter 300 RPM motor (instead of the 600 RPM that I have now.) Supposedly the quieter motor sucks more juice, therefore the standard Falcon version won't work.
What I like about the Falcon is that it keeps checking your speed and making micro adjustments automatically to compensate for it. I haven't heard that unit myself, so I'm not 100% sure about its total sonic benefits. Maybe you should buy the unit after proper consultation with Falcon themselves. Once you have it, we can compare the SDS and the Falcon and see which one is better. I have a feeling the Falcon is, in which case I WILL sell my SDS and get the Falcon units. If the SDS is better, just sell / Return the Falcon and get the SDS. That will settle that whole thing once and for all. Please call VPI as well and make sure your Classic is fine to be used with the SDS.
The VTA tower looks handy. Too many records at too many thicknesses. One thing I've noticed is how sensitive this table is to minor adjustments. This is something that is new to me. I actually took the effort to level it out precisely, which made a difference. Also played with VTA, and it seems HW's recommendations on just not using it and increasing VTF a slight bit works better. More lively and less reserved sounding. I can people preferring it the other way though..
The Classic will let you hear every damn change you make to the table in ANY capacity. You can really tune the sound of the table with the VTA and VTF settings. Again, if you bring the table at some point, I will tune this with you and make sure it is sounding correct. It is recommended to run no anti skating on the table and increasing the VTF by 0.1g. Just make sure the wire loop from the tonearm into the junction box is nice and round. No weird kinks etc.
Needs to look nice and smooth like this:
(http://cdn2.bigcommerce.com/server3100/04933/products/514/images/878/105__15754.1310595928.451.416.gif?c=2)
Should not look like this or anything else that is not smooth like the above picture:
(http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/584158-vpi_classic1_turntable_jmw105i_se_tonearm_soundsmith_counter_intuitive.jpg)
The clamp makes a huge difference. Sometimes I forget to put it on (actually happened when Adam was here), and I'm like, hmm, doesn't sound as focused or resolving, until I noticed I didn't put it on. I figure the heavy duty center weights like the HRX one are better? What do you think about the super heavy center weights from TTW? Do you think they are too much (I think one of them is 3 or 5 lbs.). A heavier clamp is an easy decision since they aren't that expensive.
The VPI Classic bearing is amazingly solid! You can easily run your 5 lb. clamp with no reservations. But more weight is not necessarily the answer :) I have 6 or 7 different clamps that I use, depending on what I want from the performance. Once size does NOT fit all. But you should absolutely start with the VPI HRX Center Weight and Periphery ring. They work together amazingly well and propel the performance of the table like you've never heard. Again, I have both these items. You can hear the difference for yourself.
The periphery ring is quite a lot. It appears from the indent on the edge platter that the ring can actually also fit on top of the platter (and a record can put on top of both the ring and platter -- when I am lazy). I am thinking about machining this part myself because it is the priciest piece.
Don't machine the part (you can if you want to). But the VPI ring is a sonic masterpiece that is perfectly matched up with the table. Just save up and buy it...you only need to do this once, so do it right. I cannot fathom you buying another turntable to leave the Classic in the dust...so just get it running to it's full capability and enjoy it for the rest of your days....seriously!
Finally what do you think of the one piece 3D printed JMW tonearm?
The 3D tonearm could be a second armwand you MIGHT want to get. It is slightly fuller and warmer than the all metal armwand you have right now. The same and even more sonic differences can be had with cables, VTF settings, Clamps etc. I don't think it is an absolute must, but when you are ready to purchase a second arm for your new dedicated mono cartridge, go ahead and get the 3D armwand for nice change of pace. Matching all the items together is the real key.
Honestly, get the upgrades sorted out first. That way the table will perform to its best ability and you can really see what any cartridge, tonearm cable and various other tweaks and changes are doing. Again, I know the VPI tables especially well...so if you need any help or anything, just ask. :)p7
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I thought one of the benefits of rubber band belts was to dampen or isolate the motor from the platter. So shouldn't more belts mitigate more vibration rather than transfer more? Or is that claimed benefit a bunch of hocum?
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PB replaced his SDS with the Phoenix Eagle and Roadrunner on his Scoutmaster, but I didn't notice a huge difference at least in the sound of his drops. The change from his MS Phonomena to Eastern Electric Phono pre on the other hand was dramatic. You'll hear a much bigger difference between Phono preamps than between the standard JMW vs. 3D printed JMW.
Definitely don't neglect the Phono pre, it's a huge piece of the sonic puzzle.
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Just chiming in to say that, undefensively, I have heard very good vinyl playback on my 1200. I look forward to your updated impressions. It's not a case of thousands of tin-ears saying "good enough" - plenty have bought it as a reliable, servicable workhorse of a table but it is not garbage. Fuzzy mat is a definite red flag. I'll leave it at that for now.
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Just chiming in to say that, undefensively, I have heard very good vinyl playback on my 1200. I look forward to your updated impressions. It's not a case of thousands of tin-ears saying "good enough" - plenty have bought it as a reliable, servicable workhorse of a table but it is not garbage. Fuzzy mat is a definite red flag. I'll leave it at that for now.
I will say that IME, with an SME arm swap, or at the very least a Rega, and bearing upgrade, the SL-1200 really isn't bad at all. You can go further with the various available platter replacements, power supply upgrades, etc, but it's really those two things that make the SL-1200, because they are what's weakest about the stock table. As stock, I think it has a tough time beating modern belt drives at more than $700 or so.
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I thought one of the benefits of rubber band belts was to dampen or isolate the motor from the platter. So shouldn't more belts mitigate more vibration rather than transfer more? Or is that claimed benefit a bunch of hocum?
Anax, the rubber belts have disadvantages and benefits as well. They do help to "hide" the cogging and vibration transferring from the motor to the platter, but if we use a stiffer belt, or MORE of them, they can also transfer more. It is a delicate balance between all these moving parts. You just have to go by ear and truly listen to what each change is bringing to the equation.
I like the idea of having dual belts on the VPI Classic and then use the SDS to drop the voltage to 72 volts to run the motor at a lower voltage so it provides less vibrational noise. That is the direction I would have gone if I had the VPI Classic.
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I would rate the upgrades in this order:
3D arm > ring/weight > SDS/speed control
The 3D arm is more natural sounding and rings less then the metal arm. Check the sound samples Fremer posted on analog planet. To me the 3D is clearly the better of the two and I plan to purchase one in the next few months as my final upgrade for my Classic 1.
I have the ring and HRX weight on my table and I feel they improve the sound in three ways:
- reduces the negative effects of slightly warped vinyl (note that the ring will not completely flatten the record but it does help)
- adds significant mass to the platter and increases speed stability (flywheel effect)
- helps to couple the record to the platter for optimal tracking
Unconditionally recommended and if you scan the usual places you should be able to get a used ring/clamp combo for about $600.
Speed control should already be very good on your table. I would suggest borrowing/purchasing a copy of the AP test record and using the platter speed app to test it out. I'm not saying the SDS/Road Runner will not improve it. I am saying that I feel the other upgrades will produce more sonic effect.
Also, I completely agree with DaveBSC. A solid mid-tier phono section will have more effect then any of the above. Going from my entry level Simaudio LP110 to the Seta Phono L was the second biggest single quality jump in my analog system. Only going from a Technics 1200 clone with Ortofon 2M Red (Numark Pro-TT1) to the VPI Classic with Ortofon 2M Black was a bigger difference for obvious reasons.
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Also, I completely agree with DaveBSC. A solid mid-tier phono section will have more effect then any of the above.
You are absolutely right about that.
Let's say my sense of disturbance in the Force was actually the result of the TC-750. It's darn good for the money, even with the cost of a custom built Sigma 11 power supply, but the TC-750 still wasn't resolving enough. Good clean lines, but ultimately seem to simplify music and lose the nuances.
I scrounged around the last two days in the EC vaults to find various phono preamps in states of disrepair, and I got one particular preamp up and running. The design is a bit different from the Transcription. Instead of 12AX7x2/6SN7, it's purely an MM with a 6SL7 and 6922 (passive RIAA network as well). I also sound some nice huge Jenson MC transformers which should come in handy in the future.
The Seta Phono L is an absolutely brilliant idea for vinyl ripping, doing the EQ in the digital domain avoids a lot of crap in the circuit.
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So what happened with the phonos?
Evidently the thread got sidetracked. Anyways, to follow up on the preamps, I rate them roughly in two groups:- GROUP 1: TC-750/54 with AMB power supply (both similar sound)
- GROUP 2: All the rest (Rega Fono, Mani, TC750/54 with SMPS)
EC Transcription not going to be commented on much for obvious reasons. Ask Adam.
With the Sigma 11 PS, the TC-750/54 snaps into place and runs away from the rest (Mani and Rega) with big dynamics, increased resolution, refinement and poise. Clarity, clean lines, attack, and articulation are further improved. Note that a commissioned AMB Sigma 11 will run about $350. The TC-750 is a discrete transistor design, with crappy parts (electrolytic caps everywhere even for small coupling caps). The RIAA network isn't passive. It's in the feedback loop after the second transistor. If any downside other than lack of ultimate nuance and resolution, it's lack of extension in the bass. I suspect the 2.2uF caps at the output are too small.
For the rest in group 2, TC-750 with the SMPS, Rega Fono, and Schiit Mani, they are all about equivalent in terms of the ladder, but they do sound quite different from each other, especially the Rega Fono.
The Mani is well extended in both bass and treble, has great control, good slam, but ultimately sounded less clear and flatter than either the rest. The TC-750 with the TC-754 PS wasn't as well extended in the bass, but was marginally clearer and definitely more lively (and also more grainy in the treble). By a tiny margin, I preferred the TC-750/54 with the TC-754's external SMPS (it looks like a bigger unit compared to the TC-750's SMPS) over the Schiit Mani. However, I don't know if I can say if this would be the case with the stock TC-750's super wimpy SMPS.
The Rega Fono was significantly warmer tonally than the rest. Bass was murky, mids were lush, and treble was unoffensive. Despite the drawbacks, the Fono was marginally more engaging and lively than the others in this group. With the TTs on hand and how they were setup, the Fono was my least preferred phono pre, but I could see it as more suitable than the Mani or TC-750 with SMPS depending on synergies and personal preferences.
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Cool. So it looks like we all hear the phonos the same on the whole. :)p1
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The Mani is well extended in both bass and treble, has great control, good slam, but ultimately sounded less clear and flatter than either the rest. The TC-750 with the TC-754 PS wasn't as well extended in the bass, but was marginally clearer and definitely more lively (and also more grainy in the treble). By a tiny margin, I preferred the TC-750/54 with the TC-754's external SMPS (it looks like a bigger unit compared to the TC-750's SMPS) over the Schiit Mani. However, I don't know if I can say if this would be the case with the stock TC-750's super wimpy SMPS.
The Mani is impressive for what it has and what it costs, but I can't help but wonder if they could've gotten more out of it by focusing purely on MMs. How many people are really going to be using MC carts with a $129 Phono stage, especially with a single 47 Ohm input impedance setting? The fact that the Analog Planet audience preferred the cheaper U-turn Pluto, which is fixed gain, fixed loading MM only over the Mani suggests perhaps misplaced priorities in attempting to make the Mani a "jack of all trades" pre.
What I definitely would like to see from Schiit is something priced against the Fono, Gram Amp 2 and Lehmann Black Cube Statement. The later two really aren't bad at all, but I think Schiit could beat them with the parts budget for a $400-500 retail price.
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The Gram Amp 2 and LBC Statement use opamps. I'm sure Schiit, being direct sales, could easily exceed those two designs with a discrete or perhaps part discrete, part opamp design with a passive RIAA network and good power section for $400-$600.
The problem is would they get enough sales to make such a design worthwhile? Someone who just bought a table for $500 may not want to be spending another $500 for a phono pre, even though the thought of spending the same amount on the phono pre as on the table is normal for the more experienced vinyl nutjobs.
The Mani is impressive for what it has and what it costs, but I can't help but wonder if they could've gotten more out of it by focusing purely on MMs
Probably not. It was simply in the nature of the design that offering an MC option was an easy thing to do via two sets of DIP switches and few more resistors. Also 59db (max) gain might not be enough for some MC carts / amps.
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The problem is would they get enough sales to make such a design worthwhile? Someone who just bought a table for $500 may not want to be spending another $500 for a phono pre, even though the thought of spending the same amount on the phono pre as on the table is normal for the more experienced vinyl nutjobs.
There's the real question. I don't think people with $500 tables are likely to buy $500 Phono pres, nor would I really recommend they do that. What about the person with the Music Hall Ikura, or Pro-Ject 2Xperience, or RP6, Scout Jr, Clearaudio Concept, etc? If you can be convinced to spend more than the price of a Debut Carbon to really hear what's in those grooves, you can also probably be convinced that you need to step up from the basic level $100-200 Phono pres, and I think there's some meat left on those bones for Schiit to chew on...at least assuming that the Mani has been a sales success for them.
The Graham Slee and the Lehmann are fine for what they are, but obviously for a company like Schiit that has to worry less about margins and can afford more costly discrete components, that opens up the door to make something that sounds much more impressive. What would also be very cool is if they could match or at least get close to the amazing adjustability of the Phonomena (6 gain settings, 8 loading impedance options, 2 capacitance loading options) for less cost. The vast majority of Phono pres can't get near that, including my $4K Sutherland.
(http://www.elusivedisc.com/images/abenzphonoiips-2.jpg)
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Phonomena (6 gain settings, 8 loading impedance options, 2 capacitance loading options) for less cost. The vast majority of Phono pres can't get near that, including my $4K Sutherland.
Those are really nice options to have. Right now I have resistors and caps hanging off the inputs inside the chassis to tweak these things. I'm finding that carts, say for example the 2M Black I currently have, don't necessarily sound the best with the manufacturer recommended loading. Need to get a test record soon and measure this stuff.
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I spent $450 on a phono pre for my $450 turntable :)p2
Originally I spent $150 on a preamp, it picked up 2 different radio stations, and had a nasty hummmmm. I narrowed it down to the line out's of the preamp (tried multiple different cables, moving where it sat, and grounding strategies), wrapped it in tin foil and knocked down the various noises to acceptable levels poo Got sick of looking at it and pawned it off, spent the money to upgrade. Which it did, zero radio stations, no hum what so ever until I crank the volume past 2 o'clock, and only a little in the right channel, the left channel is dead silent (way to loud to listen to at that level anyway). I'm content for now...
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Those are really nice options to have. Right now I have resistors and caps hanging off the inputs inside the chassis to tweak these things. I'm finding that carts, say for example the 2M Black I currently have, don't necessarily sound the best with the manufacturer recommended loading. Need to get a test record soon and measure this stuff.
Memory is failing but I recall that somebody measured the FR of the 2M Black a few years ago and discovered that you can smooth it out by changing the resistance to 33K. Most phono stages don't allow for changing MM resistance so I never tried it out with mine. Capacitance only made a small difference; the lower the better.
Edit: Found the link. Click me (http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/ortofon-2m-black-frequency-response-charts.312499/) :)
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Yup. I pulled the caps and am relying on only the capacitance of the tonearm wire and interconnects (pushing peak higher and extending FR). Keeping 48k ohms - don't mind the bump. Also, finally took the time to set things up correctly. Originally, azimuth was totally off. SRA was off too like at 85°. Won't say who set it up, and to be fair, TT's should probably be set up after they are leveled at the location they are set to be used. Anyways, fixed azimuth, and set SRA to 90° (for the typical records I play) after initially trying 92°. I used a digital camera and zoomed in, drawing lines in Photoshop. Much better now with focused clarity and plankton. It's definitely dialed-in.