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Author Topic: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)  (Read 3219 times)

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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #50 on: August 25, 2015, 07:18:03 AM »

I thought one of the benefits of rubber band belts was to dampen or isolate the motor from the platter. So shouldn't more belts mitigate more vibration rather than transfer more? Or is that claimed benefit a bunch of hocum?
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DaveBSC

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #51 on: August 25, 2015, 03:40:12 PM »

PB replaced his SDS with the Phoenix Eagle and Roadrunner on his Scoutmaster, but I didn't notice a huge difference at least in the sound of his drops. The change from his MS Phonomena to Eastern Electric Phono pre on the other hand was dramatic. You'll hear a much bigger difference between Phono preamps than between the standard JMW vs. 3D printed JMW.

Definitely don't neglect the Phono pre, it's a huge piece of the sonic puzzle.
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Azteca X

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #52 on: August 25, 2015, 03:50:21 PM »

Just chiming in to say that, undefensively, I have heard very good vinyl playback on my 1200. I look forward to your updated impressions. It's not a case of thousands of tin-ears saying "good enough" - plenty have bought it as a reliable, servicable workhorse of a table but it is not garbage. Fuzzy mat is a definite red flag. I'll leave it at that for now.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #53 on: August 25, 2015, 04:38:32 PM »

Just chiming in to say that, undefensively, I have heard very good vinyl playback on my 1200. I look forward to your updated impressions. It's not a case of thousands of tin-ears saying "good enough" - plenty have bought it as a reliable, servicable workhorse of a table but it is not garbage. Fuzzy mat is a definite red flag. I'll leave it at that for now.

I will say that IME, with an SME arm swap, or at the very least a Rega, and bearing upgrade, the SL-1200 really isn't bad at all. You can go further with the various available platter replacements, power supply upgrades, etc, but it's really those two things that make the SL-1200, because they are what's weakest about the stock table. As stock, I think it has a tough time beating modern belt drives at more than $700 or so.
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shaizada

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #54 on: August 25, 2015, 04:54:26 PM »

I thought one of the benefits of rubber band belts was to dampen or isolate the motor from the platter. So shouldn't more belts mitigate more vibration rather than transfer more? Or is that claimed benefit a bunch of hocum?

Anax, the rubber belts have disadvantages and benefits as well.  They do help to "hide" the cogging and vibration transferring from the motor to the platter, but if we use a stiffer belt, or MORE of them, they can also transfer more.  It is a delicate balance between all these moving parts.  You just have to go by ear and truly listen to what each change is bringing to the equation. 

I like the idea of having dual belts on the VPI Classic and then use the SDS to drop the voltage to 72 volts to run the motor at a lower voltage so it provides less vibrational noise.  That is the direction I would have gone if I had the VPI Classic.
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Chris F

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #55 on: August 25, 2015, 08:22:13 PM »

I would rate the upgrades in this order:
3D arm > ring/weight > SDS/speed control

The 3D arm is more natural sounding and rings less then the metal arm.  Check the sound samples Fremer posted on analog planet.  To me the 3D is clearly the better of the two and I plan to purchase one in the next few months as my final upgrade for my Classic 1.

I have the ring and HRX weight on my table and I feel they improve the sound in three ways:
- reduces the negative effects of slightly warped vinyl (note that the ring will not completely flatten the record but it does help)
- adds significant mass to the platter and increases speed stability (flywheel effect)
- helps to couple the record to the platter for optimal tracking

Unconditionally recommended and if you scan the usual places you should be able to get a used ring/clamp combo for about $600.

Speed control should already be very good on your table.  I would suggest borrowing/purchasing a copy of the AP test record and using the platter speed app to test it out.  I'm not saying the SDS/Road Runner will not improve it.  I am saying that I feel the other upgrades will produce more sonic effect.

Also, I completely agree with DaveBSC.  A solid mid-tier phono section will have more effect then any of the above.  Going from my entry level Simaudio LP110 to the Seta Phono L was the second biggest single quality jump in my analog system. Only going from a Technics 1200 clone with Ortofon 2M Red (Numark Pro-TT1) to the VPI Classic with Ortofon 2M Black was a bigger difference for obvious reasons.
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Marvey

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #56 on: August 28, 2015, 04:49:35 PM »

Also, I completely agree with DaveBSC.  A solid mid-tier phono section will have more effect then any of the above. 

You are absolutely right about that.

Let's say my sense of disturbance in the Force was actually the result of the TC-750. It's darn good for the money, even with the cost of a custom built Sigma 11 power supply, but the TC-750 still wasn't resolving enough. Good clean lines, but ultimately seem to simplify music and lose the nuances.

I scrounged around the last two days in the EC vaults to find various phono preamps in states of disrepair, and I got one particular preamp up and running. The design is a bit different from the Transcription. Instead of 12AX7x2/6SN7, it's purely an MM with a 6SL7 and 6922 (passive RIAA network as well). I also sound some nice huge Jenson MC transformers which should come in handy in the future.

The Seta Phono L is an absolutely brilliant idea for vinyl ripping, doing the EQ in the digital domain avoids a lot of crap in the circuit.
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Marvey

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #57 on: August 28, 2015, 05:20:35 PM »

So what happened with the phonos?

Evidently the thread got sidetracked. Anyways, to follow up on the preamps, I rate them roughly in two groups:
  • GROUP 1: TC-750/54 with AMB power supply (both similar sound)
  • GROUP 2: All the rest (Rega Fono, Mani, TC750/54 with SMPS)
EC Transcription not going to be commented on much for obvious reasons. Ask Adam.

With the Sigma 11 PS, the TC-750/54 snaps into place and runs away from the rest (Mani and Rega) with big dynamics, increased resolution, refinement and poise. Clarity, clean lines, attack, and articulation are further improved. Note that a commissioned AMB Sigma 11 will run about $350. The TC-750 is a discrete transistor design, with crappy parts (electrolytic caps everywhere even for small coupling caps). The RIAA network isn't passive. It's in the feedback loop after the second transistor. If any downside other than lack of ultimate nuance and resolution, it's lack of extension in the bass. I suspect the 2.2uF caps at the output are too small.

For the rest in group 2, TC-750 with the SMPS, Rega Fono, and Schiit Mani, they are all about equivalent in terms of the ladder, but they do sound quite different from each other, especially the Rega Fono.

The Mani is well extended in both bass and treble, has great control, good slam, but ultimately sounded less clear and flatter than either the rest. The TC-750 with the TC-754 PS wasn't as well extended in the bass, but was marginally clearer and definitely more lively (and also more grainy in the treble). By a tiny margin, I preferred the TC-750/54 with the TC-754's external SMPS (it looks like a bigger unit compared to the TC-750's SMPS) over the Schiit Mani. However, I don't know if I can say if this would be the case with the stock TC-750's super wimpy SMPS.

The Rega Fono was significantly warmer tonally than the rest. Bass was murky, mids were lush, and treble was unoffensive. Despite the drawbacks, the Fono was marginally more engaging and lively than the others in this group. With the TTs on hand and how they were setup, the Fono was my least preferred phono pre, but I could see it as more suitable than the Mani or TC-750 with SMPS depending on synergies and personal preferences.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #58 on: August 28, 2015, 05:28:36 PM »

Cool. So it looks like we all hear the phonos the same on the whole. :)p1
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DaveBSC

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #59 on: August 28, 2015, 06:57:37 PM »

The Mani is well extended in both bass and treble, has great control, good slam, but ultimately sounded less clear and flatter than either the rest. The TC-750 with the TC-754 PS wasn't as well extended in the bass, but was marginally clearer and definitely more lively (and also more grainy in the treble). By a tiny margin, I preferred the TC-750/54 with the TC-754's external SMPS (it looks like a bigger unit compared to the TC-750's SMPS) over the Schiit Mani. However, I don't know if I can say if this would be the case with the stock TC-750's super wimpy SMPS.

The Mani is impressive for what it has and what it costs, but I can't help but wonder if they could've gotten more out of it by focusing purely on MMs. How many people are really going to be using MC carts with a $129 Phono stage, especially with a single 47 Ohm input impedance setting? The fact that the Analog Planet audience preferred the cheaper U-turn Pluto, which is fixed gain, fixed loading MM only over the Mani suggests perhaps misplaced priorities in attempting to make the Mani a "jack of all trades" pre.

What I definitely would like to see from Schiit is something priced against the Fono, Gram Amp 2 and Lehmann Black Cube Statement. The later two really aren't bad at all, but I think Schiit could beat them with the parts budget for a $400-500 retail price.
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