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Author Topic: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)  (Read 3219 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2015, 06:35:08 AM »

I only listened to one recording at Brooks with OJ's setup. While his setup had the TC750 + AMB PS, it's possible what I liked was more the specific vinyl recording. And even then, there was no comparison of the same (or similarly mastered) recording to the Yggy.

For this run, all things being equal, including the recordings more or less, the Technics doesn't cut it. I didn't even think OJ's Technics was all that great with the Zepplin, even with the Manley pre at the mini-meet at my place. Even compared to the Project with the POS thin acrylic platter, the Technics was only different, not better. Keep in mind that the Talking Heads album I used has a lot of bass energy. Adam did mention the lesser tables do tend to do better with recordings with less bass. Also, keep in mind that everything is relative to what was on hand.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2015, 06:47:45 AM »

This table sucks. I've heard this table a million times. Never liked it, never will. I have an old Technics table (not this DJ version) still at my parents house. The DJ table isn't much better. Totally overrated. By this I mean I'd rather listen to Yggy or Gumby. On an overall basis, might be on par with DS Gungnir, but this is really a difficult comparison since the formats' strengths and weaknesses are diametrically opposite. I don't know why people keep recommending this table, but I guess it's because it's cheap and really not much else better at the same price.

The table is heavy. That's a good thing. The lightweight platter and direct drive doesn't do it any favors. Greyish blackground, kind of has a chug chug chug feeling. Don't get that nice stable blackness of the VPI. Bass is horrendous. Gooey warmth and lushness. Soft squishy dynamics. By far the least resolving. Don't know whether to blame the AT440, the arm, or both for lack of resolution. IMO, this is bad turntable sound.

I assume we're talking stock SL-1200MKII here? The DJ-spec SL-1200 has a cult around it that for whatever reason has elevated what was never intended to be any sort of audiophile table to godlike status, that it definitely doesn't deserve. There's also a cult around all things direct drive, and a mistaken belief that DD > belts no matter what. It's one of the easiest DDs to get that isn't Chinese trash, which is why it's still so popular. It's marginally better than entry level tables like the Pro-Ject Debut and Rega RP1 (yes, they're even worse) but that's it. One of its major weaknesses is the stock EPA-120 tonearm, which is basically shit. It's actually an improvement over the EPA-110 from the prior SL-1100 which was PURE dog shit, but that doesn't make it good.

With a tonearm swap/re-wire, new bearing, new platter, and new power supply, the MKII actually isn't all that bad. All of that stuff costs a lot of money though, and I just don't see the sense in pouring that into an SL-1200.

http://www.soundhifi.com/sl1200/evo.html

By the way, Stereophile raved about the "Pioneer" PLX-1000, a crappy, shoddily built SL-1200 clone, ranking it "borderline Class B" in their recommended components section. So.... yeah.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2015, 06:49:13 AM »

Gooey warmth and lushness from 1200? WTF? That's literally the opposite of what mine sounds like. I more expected you to call it too lean, especially with AT440.

Yeah. It's fast and pretty precise.
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Marvey

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #13 on: August 24, 2015, 06:55:47 AM »

Might be the Doctor's fuzzy matt on his SL1200. I'm serious.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #14 on: August 24, 2015, 07:02:43 AM »

Might be the Doctor's fuzzy matt on his SL1200. I'm serious.

Fuzzy mat? Oh god, it didn't come with the thick rubber one?? Doh.
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OJneg

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #15 on: August 24, 2015, 07:39:48 AM »

At this point I've had audiophiles tell me that the 1200 sounds every which way, so it's hard to keep track. Some internet reviewers say it has poor dynamics...then I put on some UB40 and the sound practically punches me in the face. Fremer says it has poor wow and flutter and the whole cogging BS, but then I compare to any belt where you can hear the lack of precision of those things and how it colors the music, in a sort of euphonic/audiophile-y way. Then I hear some gurus talk about how the 1200/direct drives have no bass. Supposedly belts have a lot more "sustain" (See: ringing and lack of control) on those bass notes :-Z Now I'm hearing the 1200 does have bass, but it's all gooey and shitty.  facepalm

I get the sense of a slight lack of refinement or even "grain" that's imparted on the sound. It's along the order of magnitude that perhaps a cable/connector upgrade to take care of. It's actually probably the arm like Dave says. But all the rest of this shit that people say I am just not hearing it. I think people are either hearing their records for the first time or hearing other deficiencies in the chain. Enjoy the sound of belts I guess :)p5
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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #16 on: August 24, 2015, 07:40:45 AM »

From article linked below.

"I took the thicker Technics platter mat and put it on the Pioneer's platter, and the thinner Pioneer mat on the Technics. You won't believe what happened. That champagne midrange moved over from the Technics to the Pioneer, and a tighter, more damped sound emerged from the Technics."

There's more mat comments in the article as well.

While I'm no Technics DJ fanboy or DD nazi, I find the hate for direct drive equally ignorant and misinformed by audiophile belt snobs. Simply haven't heard any issues with cogging or motor noise with OJ's TT. Again, it's his TT, not mine so I have no skin in the game. My Dual uses an idler which I CAN actually hear. Go figure.

By the way, Stereophile raved about the "Pioneer" PLX-1000, a crappy, shoddily built SL-1200 clone, ranking it "borderline Class B" in their recommended components section. So.... yeah.

I don't know what version of the article you read, but here's what I took away from that one. A lot of it has matched many of my impressions.

http://www.stereophile.com/content/gramophone-dreams-4#o19TkSdmOFP982bJ.97

"With the PLX-1000's platter removed, I could see that its motor mounts and interior construction were completely different from (but possibly sturdier and more serviceable than) those of the venerable Technics machine. Musically and mechanically, the new PLX-1000 seems more heavy-duty and sure-footed than the vintage, near-mint SL-1200MK2 I borrowed for comparisons."

"Just for fun, we played Steve Guttenberg's original pressing, bought in 1965, of Beatles for Sale (LP, Parlophone PCS 3062) on the belt-drive VPI Traveler ($1199) with an Ortofon 2M Black cartridge ($799), and on the Pioneer PLX-1000 with the Zu DL-103 ($519). Normally, the Ortofon, with its sensitive nude Shibata stylus, is a very refined, uncolored, low-distortion cartridge; and normally, the Zu DL-103, with its conical stylus, is a looser, more colorful, but more generalized-sounding cartridge. Today, those roles were reversed. Bass through the Traveler was slightly woolly and puffy, while bass through the Pioneer felt controlled, tuneful, and detailed. (I'm certain much of this difference can be attributed to the Pioneer's superior vibration isolation on my extremely rigid equipment rack.) The VPI's midrange sounded more recessed and dark than the brighter, more focused sound of the PLX-1000. During this comparison, the VPI had the most refined and enjoyable top octaves while the Pioneer the most realistic bottom octaves. Overall, the Pioneer's eager, smiling handshake made the VPI seem a little shy and dutiful."

"Next, we replaced the VPI with Mike Trei's like-new Technics SL-1200MK2 and played a bunch of records using only the Zu Denon cartridge and the excellent Schiit Audio Mani phono stage ($129), designed by Mike Moffat. Out of curiosity, we used Dr. Feickert Analogue's Adjust+ test record and iPhone app to measure the speed accuracy of the SL-1200M2 and PLX-1000. Both 'tables performed better than their published specifications."

"I tried to forget about the PLX-1000 and just enjoy playing records—until I got restless and began wondering how the brand-new Pioneer would compare with my ancient (idler drive) Thorens TD 124.

Right now, I wish I could say something like, "The Pioneer was good, but not quite as good as my reference TD 124." But I can't. Both 'tables actively disarmed my critical facilities and let me focus on the music—which is the main reason I like them. My expertly restored Thorens was obviously noisier than the Pioneer, but even so, it seemed less noticeable in the reproduction chain than the PLX-1000. Meanwhile, the Pioneer added an extra clear octave each of bass and treble that made every record sound richer, more open, and alive. The Pioneer's added frequency extension let me look deeper into musical soundscapes."

"Compared to the best belt-drive turntables, the Pioneer PLX-1000 emitted a barely perceptible forced weightiness. I had to listen very carefully to hear this. The effect was like a nervous unsuppleness that pushed ever so lightly against my consciousness while music was playing. I've noticed this forced weightiness with almost every direct-drive turntable—except maybe old Mitchell A. Cotter's B-1, the Victor (JVC) TT-101, and the new VPI. Could this be what those belt-drive fanatics are complaining about?

But wait! Before all you überperceptive rubber-band practitioners get too cocky, I should point out that belt-driven 'tables have their own variant of this subtle phenomenon. To my ears, all but the most elite belt-drives surround the musical flow with an unmistakable, vacuous, hollow, unnaturally relaxed, false emptiness that reminds me of an uncomfortable silence in a romantic conversation. This false emptiness can also feel slightly off the beat."

"Yes, people, the Pioneer PLX-1000 plays music like a high-torque direct-drive record-playing machine. That is why I enjoyed it so much. It gave tangible force and soulful energy to pop, R&B, jazz, and electronica. Belts can't touch the PLX-1000's excitement, naturally formed detail, and clearly expressed forward momentum. And who could have imagined? This new Pioneer also showcases the complex tonal character and elegant structures of classical music better than any affordable belt-drive I've experienced. So . . ."

Based on this, my own admittedly limited experience and other readings, it seems I would need to spend more than $7000 to get better than borderline class B and outperform a $600 Direct Drive TT on a consistent basis.
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Marvey

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #17 on: August 24, 2015, 08:19:23 AM »

At this point I've had audiophiles tell me that the 1200 sounds every which way... blah blah blah, insane rant against belt drives, professed love for SL1200 direct drive...

It's all relative. If it makes you feel any better, it's possible the Doctor's SL1200 is screwed up, bad bearings, etc. A lot of this stuff is old. We really have no idea the condition they are in.

On the DD vs. belt drive, it's more implementation and trade-offs. I don't think you can make generalizations about it when you've only owned one budget DD TT and listened to one budget belt drive TT for a collective total of 12 minutes. Motor or other extraneous noise become more obvious with MC or more resolving carts. Then again, the way you're headed, you are probably going to say that MM carts are all that he necessary.

The fact is, if you are happy where you are at, you don't need to worry about it. It's actually a good thing.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #18 on: August 24, 2015, 08:52:05 AM »

I don't think you can make generalizations about it when you've only owned one budget DD TT and listened to one budget belt drive TT for a collective total of 12 minutes. Motor or other extraneous noise become more obvious with MC or more resolving carts. Then again, the way you're headed, you are probably going to say that MM carts are all that he necessary.

I don't think he'd say that considering he's building his own MC phono pre. I'm also pretty sure there isn't one budget belt drive TT within 20 square miles of Shaizada's house.
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drfindley

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Re: Turntable (x3) and Phono-Pre Comparison (x7 + x2 variants)
« Reply #19 on: August 24, 2015, 09:38:30 AM »

Hey all, just got home a few of hours ago from SoCal. I agree with Marv, the Rega and the Technics lacked dynamics, smoothness and the tight bass of the VPI.

I don't really think DD vs belt matters a ton, it's more about implementation rather than the idea behind it, like anything else.

I've come to the conclusion that one of the most important things in vinyl is weight: weight of the plinth, weight of the platter and weight of the clamp. Sure, there's a lot that can change from finessing, but still.

Shaizada showed me the difference just in clamps and I was annoyingly surprised. I didn't think it'd make a difference, but it did with the blackness and macro dynamics.

I'm sure my Technics could benefit from a better mat and I'll give that a shot. But Merv and I both heard a distinct difference with each one and the VPI Classic sounded better. Mind you I wanted my Rega to easily best it. Or even the Technics so I could sell the Rega and be happy, but yeah, weight seems to matter.
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