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Author Topic: The Turntable Thread  (Read 45111 times)

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DaveBSC

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #80 on: February 14, 2014, 08:26:38 PM »

If I were to start all over I'd probably go with a linear tracker as well.  Actually, probably one of the automated LTs.

Keep in mind that there's a reason why LTs aren't all that popular. There are just as many downsides as there are upsides - you're moving A LOT of mass in the horizontal plane compared to a pivoted arm, and it's not easy to do that. Many of the LT arms are no longer around either because they were unreliable, or didn't actually sound that good, or probably both. You can actually end up with a situation where the arm, particularly if it isn't properly damped, will actually start controlling the cantilever instead of the other way around, which is *bad*.

I should also add that as much as I enjoy listening to the Air Line, I would never want to actually own one. It is a bitch to use with a capital B.
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MuppetFace

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #81 on: February 14, 2014, 08:30:50 PM »

The Thales is an interesting tonearm and I was eager to see it in person at CES a few years ago. When you touch the cartridge area, it moves easily in directions it shouldn't. While the idea is intriguing, I think it practice it will be incredibly difficult to make those extra bearing joints rigid. A frequency sweep of the tonearm like how Hi-Fi Choice and HFNRR used to do in the UK will expose these weaknesses.

Do you by chance mean the original Thales arm? (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=Thales-original). I haven't had the pleasure of trying it, but it looks really wild. I'm only familiar with their more straight forward Simplicity arm (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=simplicity). As someone pointed out, it sort of resembles a pair of chopsticks holding a cartridge.

Goldmund tables are very alien to me, as I haven't had a chance to hear them yet and most folks I know haven't either. Linear trackers kinda scare me if I'm being perfectly honest, though that's not always a bad thing... a little intimidation from your gear can be good in fact. Like anything I'm sure it's a matter of implementation, as the ones I'm more familiar with were definitely a mixed bag.

Oh, and I forgot to mention this, but I was also very impressed by the Centroid arm that's meant to go with the Spiral Groove tables. Really as a whole package, I think the SG2 may be the one for me. The guy behind it also worked for SOTA for a while, and in particular he designed the SOTA Cosmos, which I also really liked in its price range. The Spiral Grooves are sort of his design philosophy taken to the next level, as he was restricted by certain limitations when he was working with SOTA. The Cosmos is that design taken to its most extreme (which is why its successor, the Millennium, is kind of a departure for SOTA). When he was prototyping ideas, he discovered things he couldn't really do with the commercial stuff at the time, so he saved them for his new project working under its own heading. Pretty neat.

Another fairly recent endeavor by a well known designer: http://realturntable.com/

Really curious 'bout that one too.

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Donald North

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #82 on: February 15, 2014, 01:31:03 AM »

Keep in mind that there's a reason why LTs aren't all that popular. There are just as many downsides as there are upsides - you're moving A LOT of mass in the horizontal plane compared to a pivoted arm, and it's not easy to do that.
I believe linear tracking tonearms loss popularity due to engineering complexity. Why sweat the bullets developing a killer linear arm when people seem happy spending $$$ on a unipivot balanced on a needle?!

Regarding the high lateral mass, this is the advantage of the Goldmund T-3. It's essentially servo controlled pivoted arm that moves on a linear track. To me you can get the best of both worlds if done properly, and if I were to develop a tonearm it would be along these lines.
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Donald North

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #83 on: February 15, 2014, 01:35:37 AM »

Do you by chance mean the original Thales arm? (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=Thales-original). I haven't had the pleasure of trying it, but it looks really wild. I'm only familiar with their more straight forward Simplicity arm (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=simplicity). As someone pointed out, it sort of resembles a pair of chopsticks holding a cartridge.
Yes, I was referring to their original tonearm. One the sample I touched at CES I found play in the bearings near the cartridge mounting and to me this is unacceptable. Their new Simplicity tonearm reminds me of the Garrard Zero-100 with dual arm wands and bearing problems.
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Skyline

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #84 on: February 16, 2014, 02:46:15 AM »

Wow.  Reading this thread.   p:0

*takes his Debut Carbon and walks home*
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givemevinyl

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #85 on: February 16, 2014, 05:01:11 AM »

Wow.  Reading this thread.   p:0

*takes his Debut Carbon and walks home*

I know most folks try to maximize sonic experience in whatever way afforded to them, and most of us are drawn to or impressed by elite gear, but there's something more - much more - when it comes vinyl.  While I have a decent vinyl system, what drew me to record playing wasn't just the sound or the potential system I could build around it, but also the simple wonder of handling records, viewing a close-up, 12" view of the visual artwork the artist chose to represent her music, gently sliding out a record from its cover and deftly using fingers and palms in just the right way to place it on the platter with minimal contact and impact, sweeping away dust and particles at the best angle and force while feeling the record spin round and round beneath the brush, buying in bulk the right type of anti-static, scratch-resistant inner sleeve and durable outer sleeve to protect records, reading countless articles/posts about the best formula of record cleaning solutions -- these are just a few reasons why the experience of vinyl extends far beyond the gear we own. 

The respect for the experience, for the privilege of listening to music we enjoy, this is why we should own records and record players.

tl;dr = enjoy your Pro-ject table and records.
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MuppetFace

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #86 on: February 16, 2014, 11:13:04 AM »

Givemevinyl's comments ring true. I never enjoyed vinyl more than when I was in college, and at the time I had an entry-level Rega and a very basic Stax setup, which was still pretty luxurious for a college student. Most if not all of my spare money (which wasn't much) went to buying music rather than gear though. One roommate at the time was always complaining about my records taking up space, and she'd periodically demand to know why I wouldn't just download stuff from iTunes. When I explained the appeal I just got an impatient stare.

Not only is it a pleasure to handle records (so long as you don't live in a dusty place --- then it's more a nightmare than anything), but it's also a good feeling knowing you're supporting small-time artists, labels, and businesses. Several of my friends actually do graphic design and make album covers for smaller labels, including one guy I know who spends months drawing ridiculous old school death metal covers by hand. There's an entire culture that goes along with record collecting, and most people are perfectly happy with their gear even if it doesn't cost as much as a new car.

On the flip side, I know folks live Dave aren't so much into that ancillary stuff but genuinely like vinyl because it often sounds better. The most straight forward reason for this is that better masters often make their way onto vinyl compared to their CD and downloadable counterparts. Mostly because people putting out vinyl are more likely to actually care about what they're doing (but certainly not always --- especially now that it has become more mainstream again). In my experience, you get some of the best bang for your buck by upgrading your turntable gear. Even spending more on a new cartridge can bring you a whole new level of enjoyment over something that comes standard with your table. In other words, diminishing returns are often less apparent when it comes to more expensive turntable gear versus other gear in my experience.

For me it's a little bit of both. Back when I was in college I thought audiophiles were silly. I still do, but now I have the luxury of being silly myself. Really though, enjoying music doesn't depend on this stuff for most people. Some of the best moments where I got most into what I was listening to came with my iBuds. Like they say about cameras: the equipment you have isn't as important as what you do with it.

As for linear tracking arms, I'll definitely give them another go at some point. I tend to think everything in this hobby has its trade-offs, that there's no free lunch so to speak, and with linear tracking arms it always seemed to be their extreme fussiness and unreliability that made them a compromise of sorts. In other words, they may have nothing but benefits musically, but most folks I know who have lived with them say they're an absolute bear to maintain. I know for some folks though that's part of the fun of maintaining an expensive rig. That's why someone I know has a Verdier Platine and isn't bothered pouring lubricant into it and catching it as it drips out onto the table below. Unipivots definitely have some major compromises and flaws of their own, but I admire their (relative) straightforwardness and elegance.

Looking at Goldmund, their Studio table is very highly regarded. I bet it sounds dreamy. it appears they no longer make turntables however, and that would worry me in terms of replacement parts and servicing. Hmm.
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DaveBSC

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #87 on: February 16, 2014, 06:45:21 PM »

On the flip side, I know folks live Dave aren't so much into that ancillary stuff but genuinely like vinyl because it often sounds better. The most straight forward reason for this is that better masters often make their way onto vinyl compared to their CD and downloadable counterparts. Mostly because people putting out vinyl are more likely to actually care about what they're doing (but certainly not always --- especially now that it has become more mainstream again). In my experience, you get some of the best bang for your buck by upgrading your turntable gear. Even spending more on a new cartridge can bring you a whole new level of enjoyment over something that comes standard with your table. In other words, diminishing returns are often less apparent when it comes to more expensive turntable gear versus other gear in my experience.

As for linear tracking arms, I'll definitely give them another go at some point. I tend to think everything in this hobby has its trade-offs, that there's no free lunch so to speak, and with linear tracking arms it always seemed to be their extreme fussiness and unreliability that made them a compromise of sorts. In other words, they may have nothing but benefits musically, but most folks I know who have lived with them say they're an absolute bear to maintain. I know for some folks though that's part of the fun of maintaining an expensive rig. That's why someone I know has a Verdier Platine and isn't bothered pouring lubricant into it and catching it as it drips out onto the table below. Unipivots definitely have some major compromises and flaws of their own, but I admire their (relative) straightforwardness and elegance.

Well said. While there is a certain satisfaction to pulling a nice minty record out of its sleeve as compared to say, a few mouse clicks in Foobar or taps on my phone, the rest of it I could frankly do without. My Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro makes cleaning about as painless as is possible, but it's still not something I would say that I enjoy, I just put up with it. Same with the rest of it. Honestly if all of my favorite bands starting releasing their vinyl masters on DVDs like Iced Earth just did or as downloadable FLAC or WAV files, I would probably sell off my entire vinyl rig the next day. I just don't see that happening any time soon.

For whatever reason, vinyl (or rather vinyl masters), have pretty much always sounded better than CD, both before and after the loudness war. In the early to mid '80s I think the limitations of primitive A/D conversion probably had something to do with that, as the masters would all be tape that would have to be transferred. Of course now that's no problem, just listen to the Analogue Productions SACDs, or even their CDs. Back then though the tools weren't nearly as good.

Even as CD mastering tools improved in the '90s though, vinyl was still better. Just compare the CD version of an album like Superunknown to the German 320 vinyl press, it's not even a contest. And of course now major label executives will demand that your CD is DR5 so it's "competitive," which has the effect of destroying the kick drum and the bass guitar. Vinyl has managed to stay out of the war, and as long as a dedicated master is used and the cutting engineer knows what he or she is doing, it's an easy win for wax.

I definitely agree that upgrades to an analog rig can bring huge improvements... with the caveat that they also bring considerable improvements in complexity. When you buy a $500ish turntable, pretty much all the work is basically done for you, you'll just need to set the VTF and put the anti-skating weight on, and check the azimuth. Rega arms don't even have an adjustment for VTA. The more you spend, the more tweaking and adjusting you'll have to do. The end of that line is something like the Kuzma Air Line. If your setup isn't perfectly, perfectly level, it's unusable. And you'll still have to re-level it every time you play a record. It also doesn't like LPs that aren't cut perfectly flat. You generally don't fuck around with an air bearing arm if you know what's good for you, though from what I've heard, the Trans-Fi Terminator is less painful than most others to use. It also costs around $1500 depending on wiring as compared to the Air Line's $8K or so.

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Skyline

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #88 on: February 17, 2014, 01:20:05 PM »

The loudness war mentioned above is exactly why I went to vinyl and I've really enjoyed the experience.  I also tend to listen to music more closely when there's a ritualistic nature to the listening experience, which is something vinyl clearly provides over digital.

My frustration is that I want the best of BOTH.  I've ripped a couple of records and I think they've come out alright, but it's a TON of work and I've still got sections that I'm not happy with due to my hardware/software limitations.  I'm glad that most records these days are coming with digital download cards, but the majority of them so far have been .mp3s which are pretty much worthless to me.  I've had one or two come with .flac downloads.  The day all records start going down that road will be a happy day indeed.
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DaveBSC

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Re: The Turntable Thread
« Reply #89 on: February 17, 2014, 04:07:18 PM »

My frustration is that I want the best of BOTH.  I've ripped a couple of records and I think they've come out alright, but it's a TON of work and I've still got sections that I'm not happy with due to my hardware/software limitations.  I'm glad that most records these days are coming with digital download cards, but the majority of them so far have been .mp3s which are pretty much worthless to me.  I've had one or two come with .flac downloads.  The day all records start going down that road will be a happy day indeed.

Yup, needle dropping is an ordeal. It's so labor intensive that I mostly just send my records to one of my friends, he doesn't seem to mind it as much. The digital download coupons or Amazon autorip or whatever has basically zero interest to me, because with every example I've come across, the digital download you get is the CD master. If I wanted that, I would've bought the CD. If they started giving you FLAC files of the vinyl master, that would be a WHOLE different ball of wax.
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