CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Vinyl Nutjob World => Topic started by: MuppetFace on January 03, 2013, 11:08:24 PM
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I figured this was past due. This is the place to discuss all things turntables: various models, tonearms, cartridges, etc.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/4/46/46c63bb6_301.3.gif)
So I have two questions to start things off...
1. What do you pirates use currently?
2. What phono preamps would you recommend? I'm looking for something in the $1000-4000 range.
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My workhorse is a Technics SL-1300. My other one is a Thorens TD-124.
Pre-amps...I like vintage McIntosh so I use the phono on a C32.
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I have a Sondek LP12. Not the best of turntables, but given that I got it and over 500 albums for $300, I couldn't be happier!!!
I use an AVA pre-amp.
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Sweet! I'm going to keep a close eye on this thread, since setting up a modest vinyl rig has always been on the backburner for me.
I have a pair of Technics 1200s (anyone need one?) from my DJ'ing days that I dug up out of storage. I was looking into setting it up, but got sidetracked. I talked to Ben aka Mackat for a bit about cartridges and he recommended the Shure M97xe and AT95HE, with the latter being better for my original tonearm so I'll probably go with that.
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Rega P3-24, with a Sumiko Blackbird cartridge and Whest Two phonostage.
The Whest is a great value at $1,200.
If I had $2.5K to spend on a phonostage, I would be sorely tempted to go Manley.
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If I had $2.5K to spend on a phonostage, I would be sorely tempted to go Manley.
The Chinook looks nice. I've been wanting to try more Manley Labs stuff for a while now.
I've got a Rega P7 atm, Rega tonearm, and Lyra Dorian. I had a VPI Classic, but sold it because I just wasn't into vinyl as much last year.
I'm thinking of getting either a JA Michell Orbe, SOTA Star or Nova, or the Luxman PD-171. I'd like to try a Dynavector or ZYX cartridge. ZYX in particular has been intriguing me for a while. Seems pretty esoteric.
Then again I may just stick with Lyra, a brand I really like. The Skala or Kleos would be a nice upgrade.
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Clearaudio Concept w/ Beta wood MM cartridge. Pro-Ject Tube Box SE II.
Simple and quiet.
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The Chinook looks nice. I've been wanting to try more Manley Labs stuff for a while now.
I've got a Rega P7 atm, Rega tonearm, and Lyra Dorian. I had a VPI Classic, but sold it because I just wasn't into vinyl as much last year.
I'm thinking of getting either a JA Michell Orbe, SOTA Star or Nova, or the Luxman PD-171. I'd like to try a Dynavector or ZYX cartridge. ZYX in particular has been intriguing me for a while. Seems pretty esoteric.
Then again I may just stick with Lyra, a brand I really like. The Skala or Kleos would be a nice upgrade.
The Orbe is sweet. The SOTA and Luxman I'm not familiar with. I would highly recommend adding Origin Live to your list of tables. The Resolution MK2 knocked me out, I think it's an easy win over the Gyro SE and I'd really like to own one. The Sovereign MK2 is awesome, better than the Avid Volvere SP I think for quite a bit less.
Carts worth hearing: Soundsmith Sussurro, Ortofon Windfeld, Benz LP S-Class, Shelter Harmony. I'm not familiar with Dynavector and ZYX, but they certainly seem interesting, particularly the top level ZYX carts.
Nagra's BPS is a really nice phono pre, very different from many of the tube based pres including Nagra's own. It's dead quiet and very neutral, very much a SS phono pre but a really top class one for what it costs. Good luck in your search.
Vinyl rules :)p4
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Sweet! I'm going to keep a close eye on this thread, since setting up a modest vinyl rig has always been on the backburner for me.
I have a pair of Technics 1200s (anyone need one?) from my DJ'ing days that I dug up out of storage. I was looking into setting it up, but got sidetracked. I talked to Ben aka Mackat for a bit about cartridges and he recommended the Shure M97xe and AT95HE, with the latter being better for my original tonearm so I'll probably go with that.
If you're looking at sub-$100 cartridges for non-DJ use, it's tough to beat the Ortofon 2M Red.
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Goldmund Studio with T-3F linear tracking tonearm and A-T OC9MLII. I love good linear tracking systems.
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JA Michell Gyro SE -> Rega RB600 -> Koetsu Rosewood Signature/Transfiguration Spirit
VPI 16.5 RCM
Kinda want one of those old automated Sony linear trackers (BioTrace) and a lower end ZYX cart.
edit: Welcome Donald! :)
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Come on now, no cameras? How about some pictures of these sweet vinyl rigs!
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I'm somewhat familiar with Origin Live. I've heard their Calypso before. For phono stages, I'm considering the Origin Live Discovery:
(http://www.phono-stage-riaa-step-up.com/_images/discoveryphono.png)
For turntables, he's my list more or less:
JA Michell Orbe
Origin Live Sovereign II
Origin Live Resolution
Origin Live Resolution Classic
Basis Audio Signature 2200
Luxman PD-171
SOTA Star
SOTA Nova
Personally, I tend to prefer things with massive rectangular plinths versus more skeletal or ovoid designs. As such I'm sort of leaning toward the SOTA Nova or Basis Audio 2200. The Luxman looks nice and seems to have some of that Rega "just set it and forget it" charm, but I seriously doubt it's going to perform on the level of other $6k tables. I dunno... just a hunch.
I'm the least familiar with Origin Live, but the Calypso sounded nice from memory. The Resolution and Sovereign seem to get rave reviews, and I do like the design of the Resolution Classic. If I went with the JA Michell Orbe, I'd get the plexiglass-like plinth he seems to offer with it (the non-SE version?).
Sorry... not trying to turn this into a "help MF decide what she should get" thread.
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That's okay, I (and I'm guessing others) enjoy the conversations sparked by your exploits.
I've set my mind to get a TT in the not too far future. Mostly looking at the Rega P1 to keep costs down. Depending on how my upcoming B-1 preamp build goes, I may DIY a phono stage.
Dave's article got me started sorting through some entry TTs. https://www.metal-fi.com/how-to-buy-and-use-a-real-turntable/
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That's okay, I (and I'm guessing others) enjoy the conversations sparked by your exploits.
I've set my mind to get a TT in the not too far future. Mostly looking at the Rega P1 to keep costs down. Depending on how my upcoming B-1 preamp build goes, I may DIY a phono stage.
Dave's article got me started sorting through some entry TTs. https://www.metal-fi.com/how-to-buy-and-use-a-real-turntable/
I hope it was helpful. I would suggest avoiding entry level Thorens tables, from what I understand they are just rebadging old Dual tables and kicking 'em out the door. Not that great.
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It's a good article.
Just to inform: if you don't necessary want a single Phono-stage you can also try a good integrated amplifier. I had a simple Philips turntable hooked up to my integrated amplifier and I preferred that solution.
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This is really cool
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUgOUftRSjk
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I have a Nottingham Spacedeck, AceSpace tonearm and Zyx Bloom (low output) cartridge with a Pass Labs phono.
(http://i1272.photobucket.com/albums/y385/dranalogue/workin2.jpg)
When I have some shop space I plan to do up a custom Lenco L75 with 2 tonearms, I likeGraham, Tri-Planar. Good sound, good tracking. Wouldn't mind hearing the Durands. I want to hear Allnic's new DHT LCR phono stage as well. The H3000 is stunning.
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What are your thoughts on ZYX? I've been really curious about their cartridges and Artisan phono.
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What are your thoughts on ZYX? I've been really curious about their cartridges and Artisan phono.
I like them quite a bit. I've owned the Airy3-X and sold it to go back to the Bloom since it was a bit too hot in the treble for me. The Bloom didn't give up any of the complex midrange and only lost a bit of high frequency detail.
I know a cartridge rebuilder has said the Bloom is similar to the UNIverse. The Bloom does err slightly on the romantic side. But I like that since my table/arm is quite neutral and I consider my Pass phono to be a bit dry compared to some of the stuff my friends have.
There doesn't seem to be much on the web on these cartridges. But on another message board I'm on several people run Bloom/Airy/4D/Fuji and all like them.
They are very particular about setup. Minute changes in VTF and VTA result in rather big changes to sound.
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I should say that my friend with the Trans-Fi table went from an AT33PTG/II to a ZYX Airy 3, from there to a 4D, and then ultimately to the Sussurro. For me personally, and the kind of records that I listen to, the Benz LP S-Class is #1. Just awesome with rock and metal.
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I should say that my friend with the Trans-Fi table went from an AT33PTG/II to a ZYX Airy 3, from there to a 4D, and then ultimately to the Sussurro. For me personally, and the kind of records that I listen to, the Benz LP S-Class is #1. Just awesome with rock and metal.
Sounds like pbthal :)p13 (I was the one that suggested he try out Zyx on his msg board)
His rips are exceptional. His passion for ripping, and the number of archival quality releases he's done is really something.
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Thanks for your thoughts.
Something about ZYX really appeals to me. Like you say, there isn't much info on them around, and they have a kind of mysterious quality to them as a result. The few reviews I've read on the Fuji and Airy have been positive.
My personal favorite carts at the moment are Lyra. Aside from ZYX, I'm thinking of upgrading to the Skala or Kleos. Also the Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua has been intriguing me for a while.
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Thanks for your thoughts.
Something about ZYX really appeals to me. Like you say, there isn't much info on them around, and they have a kind of mysterious quality to them as a result. The few reviews I've read on the Fuji and Airy have been positive.
My personal favorite carts at the moment are Lyra. Aside from ZYX, I'm thinking of upgrading to the Skala or Kleos. Also the Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua has been intriguing me for a while.
Doubt you can go wrong with any of those. I really like Dynavectors as well. I owned a 10x5 and 20xH, both nice. My friend's primary stereo cart is an XV-1s and it's lovely.
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Sounds like pbthal :)p13 (I was the one that suggested he try out Zyx on his msg board)
His rips are exceptional. His passion for ripping, and the number of archival quality releases he's done is really something.
Shhh. The first rule of Fightclub is... :)p8
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I'm like Quest... got a pair of 1200mk2s from the day. Although I haven't played with them in years, I can't bear to separate the two from the mixer. So I decided to fulfill one of my childhood wants and go nostalgic:
(http://imageshack.us/a/img405/7503/dp51fdec3120255pm.jpg)
(http://imageshack.us/a/img341/2717/dp60lnov23101353pm.jpg)
Nothing crazy on cartridges- went with a Nagaoka MP110 and a Shure M44G for bargain bin records. I'm still looking around and either want one of those faux ceramic plinth Kenwoods or an SL-1200mk4. Oh- and for preamp believe it or not, another one of my childhood wants: Rane MP22z (mixer).
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I was just digging around in my basement storage, putting away all the Christmas decorations, and I found an old Technics SL-Q350 in pristine condition! Would it be worth keeping around?
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Just try it, you can always change the turntable for the better...
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I would try it, but I got rid of all my vinyl years ago. I'm considering buying a few albums I enjoy in this format, as I'm a sucker for nostalgia.
I only ask because I don't want to waste my time if it's not even worth a mention.
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I see, get some cheap (used) vinyl in good condition, hook up the amplifier and speakers and then decide. You can google the device but that won't help much if you ask me.
It's easy to find old Decca and Philips records which were produced to high standards for low prices and you can let your ears decide for yourself...
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I would try it, but I got rid of all my vinyl years ago. I'm considering buying a few albums I enjoy in this format, as I'm a sucker for nostalgia.
I only ask because I don't want to waste my time if it's not even worth a mention.
I used to work for the Technics service centre in the days those were new to the market.
It was an entry market DirectDrive player and not as well damped chassis as the more expensive ones.
Fully automatic and quartz controlled (so no speed control).
The platter was relatively lightweight compared to the more expensive ones yet had low wow and flutter.
Not sure if it were these types but remember some of these DD turntables didn't respond well to those weights you can put on the platter as it threw off the servo-loop making the wow and flutter worse,
It is mainly limited in use by the T4P cartridge mount.
Never saw a lot of them, meaning either they didn't sell very well or they were good quality.
No belts and I thought the moving arm was powered from the platter as well so pretty rugged unless the arm was obstructed while moving.
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Oh, dear.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/mcintosh-shows-new-prototype-turntable
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Oh, dear.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/mcintosh-shows-new-prototype-turntable
Ah, because Clearaudio's tables aren't blingy enough already http://www.clearaudio.de/_en/lw_Master%20Reference.php (http://www.clearaudio.de/_en/lw_Master%20Reference.php)
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I find it interesting that the ClearAudio Master Reference is one of a few TT's I've seen use a B&O style arm.
I.e. - one that stays tangential to the groove, at all times.
(genius idea for keeping groove wear to a minimum, IMO)
of similar interest:
The Thales Original
(http://www.tonarm.ch/uploads/images/Technology/TechThales.jpg)
History of tangential tracking --> http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttrabco.html (http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttrabco.html)
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Yeah, the McIntosh table is repulsive. Kinda has that "porn shoot" vibe mixed with "80s vampire club." So I like it.
But wouldn't buy it because honestly, for 10 grand there are other tables I'd much rather have.
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Gah no front panel meters! How will it light up my room like a battlefield now? I so hate the McIntosh look.
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Gah no front panel meters! How will it light up my room like a battlefield now? I so hate the McIntosh look.
Hey, hey hey! I have family who assemble and test these things... please, respect the meter! :)p3
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Gah no front panel meters! How will it light up my room like a battlefield now? I so hate the McIntosh look.
It looks like it was rescued from the set of Playboy After Dark.
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That new Zanden SS phono pre is odd too. Zanden stuff is normally achingly gorgeous, this thing looks like the bottom of a golden cow.
(http://www.analogplanet.com/images/imagecache/600_wide/Zanden.jpg)
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I find it interesting that the ClearAudio Master Reference is one of a few TT's I've seen use a B&O style arm.
I.e. - one that stays tangential to the groove, at all times.
(genius idea for keeping groove wear to a minimum, IMO)
of similar interest:
The Thales Original
History of tangential tracking --> http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttrabco.html (http://www.soundfountain.com/amb/ttrabco.html)
With most linear trackers the stylus isn't actually tangential to the groove at all times. Physically the cartridge body is. I would like to see some actual distortion measurements of these arms opposed to the usual marketing rhetoric "your records were cut like this, shouldn't they be played back like this?"
The Forsell does have a very good linear arm. I'd be interested in hearing the Terminator if it didn't look like an amateur DIY project. The other problem with most linear tracking arms is they use air pumps which are very noisy, so most people run long tubes with the pump going to a dampened closet or even another room. Personally seems like a lot of hassle to me when a Phantom Supreme II tracks exceptionally well and sounds amazing.
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Started on this project today. Complete tear down started. In spite of looking in pretty good condition, and operating, it was missing some significant parts. I took a day off to meet with the Michell Engineering and they have or can make all the parts I need! :) I am planning to keep the stock tone arm but I need to find a nice modern high compliance cartridge, any suggestions? This is the before shot, I am hoping it looks close to new when I am done.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/shipsupt/mhr_zpsd7912c8c.jpg)
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Started on this project today. Complete tear down started. In spite of looking in pretty good condition, and operating, it was missing some significant parts. I took a day off to meet with the Michell Engineering and they have or can make all the parts I need! :) I am planning to keep the stock tone arm but I need to find a nice modern high compliance cartridge, any suggestions? This is the before shot, I am hoping it looks close to new when I am done.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/shipsupt/mhr_zpsd7912c8c.jpg)
Oh god another Transcriptor. Those things are just beautiful
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I'm hoping so when I get it done! I spent a bunch of time today researching high compliance cartridges. That tone arm is pretty light stuff. I could go "vintage" an put a Shure V15 on there... but I think I there is something better out there for me...
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(http://imgur.com/twRAsdV)
My setup right now:
-NOS Technics SL-1500 w/ Shure m97xe
-TCC TC-750 Preamp
-Denon DVD-2910
-Pioneer VSX-821-K Receiver
-Sansui DA-S750U
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Sweet! I'm going to keep a close eye on this thread, since setting up a modest vinyl rig has always been on the backburner for me.
I have a pair of Technics 1200s (anyone need one?) from my DJ'ing days that I dug up out of storage. I was looking into setting it up, but got sidetracked. I talked to Ben aka Mackat for a bit about cartridges and he recommended the Shure M97xe and AT95HE, with the latter being better for my original tonearm so I'll probably go with that.
Yes, I could use one of those. I vaguely recall they are a high-quality, robust mid-fi level TT prized by DJs for their durability, correct? Good speed stability, lots of torque, decent sound, right? Anyway, if you still have one to let go, PM about price, condition, maybe some pics, shipping and such. Thanks.
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Now it's starting to look the part!
Some cosmetic issues complete, including re-plating the pods and adding the missing stylus brush. Renewed the oil reservoir, new belt, cleaned up all the wiring connections... and a few other bits and it's almost there! For a 1973 it's not looking all that bad.
I've been listening this afternoon and I'm fairly impressed, but the stylus is TIRED. I need to either get a replacement stylus for the Shure cartridge, which would keep it retro, or get something new to replace it. Still researching high compliance cartridges.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v152/shipsupt/HydREf_zps6f80c82c.jpg)
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(http://cdn.head-fi.org/5/50/900x900px-LL-5055b500_photo-12.jpeg)
There's my baby. Still fairly new and I love it. WTL Amadeus. Right now I'm using a Dynavector 10x5 (the cantilever on my 20X was bent so I traded it) and plan to upgrade to an XX-2 asap. Phono Stage is the Vincent Audio PHO-8. Really bang up stage for only $400 (that should magically turn into a Simaudio 310LP soon as well).
I'd recommend Dynavectors to anyone and plan to stick with them as my cart brand of choice.
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That transcriptor is nice
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Hi,
I don't know anything about turntables (other than how to operate them, and a little about setting them up 8)), but I want to buy my first one now, since some new releases have better masters on the Vinyl's than the cd's. If anyone is familiar with any of this equipment, please help me out ???
Edwards Audio TT1 + Rega RB252 arm + Goldring 2100 element -> Rega Fono Phono-amp
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Hi guys,
I am completely new to the vinyl scene and was looking to grab a turntable to get started. I am being offered a Technics SL-10 here locally, do you think it would be a good choice for a beginner ?
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Hi guys,
I am completely new to the vinyl scene and was looking to grab a turntable to get started. I am being offered a Technics SL-10 here locally, do you think it would be a good choice for a beginner ?
The SL-10 is certainly an interesting design, it looks more like a big CD player than what we normally think of as a TT. Supposedly sounded pretty good in its day. They are apparently not easy to service though due in part to the very compact design, so it would have to be in good working order to be worth anything. Also, apparently finding a cart that will fit ain't so easy either. You have to use T4P type carts. I think the SL-10 is probably more of an interesting oddity for vintage vinyl collectors than a good starting place. Upgradeability is pretty much zero, and when something breaks, finding a part or even somebody who knows these things and what to do with them will be a challenge. I'm not sure that the advantages of the linear tracking arm are worth the inevitable headaches. Most Technics fans would likely push you towards an SL-1200 variant instead.
(http://www.niji.or.jp/home/k-nisi/sl-10-h.jpg)
(http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i94/jimmy_bolha/unknown_tt/Technics_SL10_int-m.jpg)
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I think a turntable with a traditional tonearm would be better personally. Look for a direct-drive, .5" mount Technics.
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The SL-10 is certainly an interesting design, it looks more like a big CD player than what we normally think of as a TT. Supposedly sounded pretty good in its day. They are apparently not easy to service though due in part to the very compact design, so it would have to be in good working order to be worth anything. Also, apparently finding a cart that will fit ain't so easy either. You have to use T4P type carts. I think the SL-10 is probably more of an interesting oddity for vintage vinyl collectors than a good starting place. Upgradeability is pretty much zero, and when something breaks, finding a part or even somebody who knows these things and what to do with them will be a challenge. I'm not sure that the advantages of the linear tracking arm are worth the inevitable headaches. Most Technics fans would likely push you towards an SL-1200 variant instead.
I had similar concerns too.
The seller has assured me that it is in fully working condition. In-fact, he is the original owner and says that he uses it regularly.
The pictures he has sent me also suggest that it has been well cared for.
I can get a SL-1200(original) as well but that one would cost me twice that of the SL-10 and its cosmetic condition is nowhere as good as the latter.
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More than you ever wanted to know about the SL-10 -- http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1410#post_9241645 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1410#post_9241645)
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It is people like Analogsurvivor that drag you into this hobby by sheer enthusiasm...
I just had to read his posts.
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More than you ever wanted to know about the SL-10 -- http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1410#post_9241645 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/549616/post-a-photograph-of-your-turntable/1410#post_9241645)
Thanks. That certainly made up my mind. :)
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It is people like Analogsurvivor that drag you into this hobby by sheer enthusiasm...
I just had to read his posts.
Indeed, really interesting stuff... but some of it makes it sound like these linear tracking SLs were the second coming of Jesus. They aren't. There are some definite advantages to the design, but I maintain that an SL-1200 with a Rega arm and a real cart will school one of these tables six ways from Sunday. In theory linear tracking arms should beat pivoted arms, but there's a BIG difference between an SL-10 or one of its variants and say, this guy.
(http://images-en.busytrade.com/28023100/Clear-Audio-Master-Reference-Turntable.jpg)
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This was on reddit yesterday. Thought I'd share.
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hi-fi-visits-rega-research/
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This was on reddit yesterday. Thought I'd share.
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hi-fi-visits-rega-research/
Cool. I have mixed feelings about Rega overall. At the entry level especially I think they do pretty well, and their arms are good... to a point. Their high-end line seems at odds with their design philosophy though, and what I've seen of them has not been impressive. Also, Rega carts are at best mediocre. Also this:
Hi-Fi+: Why don’t Rega tonearms offer provisions for VTA/SRA adjustment?
RG: Basically, knowing what we do about tolerances for stylus positioning within cartridge cantilevers, we do not really accept that the concept of VTA adjustment is valid or beneficial...
Again at the entry level that's fine, most customers at that level are not going to be interesting in messing with VTA or stylus rake anyway. At the high-end though, I'm sorry but that just doesn't fly.
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Would you mind explaining more Dave? I didn't realize Rega's arms didn't have VTA (or SRA?) adjustment. I thought that was a standard feature for most "hi-fi" tonearms.
Would it make adjusting for certain cartridges difficult on Rega arms?
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Would you mind explaining more Dave? I didn't realize Rega's arms didn't have VTA (or SRA?) adjustment. I thought that was a standard feature for most "hi-fi" tonearms.
Would it make adjusting for certain cartridges difficult on Rega arms?
Most of the higher-end arms are fully adjustable, yes. It's easy to see why the RB300 and variants are such a popular arms, again at that level Rega does pretty well. The RB1000 is $2K though, and sorry but there are just way better arms available for that kind of money.
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not sure if this qualifies for a "RISE FROM YOUR GRAVE"...
Anyways, just picked up a new turntable. I have been toying with picking up a vinyl rig for awhile now, not necessarily because of the analog v digital discussion but, more to get access to better masters of some of the recent popular releases.
Anyways, I picked up a Debut Carbon, brush and stylus gauge and I would have to say that I am rather pleased with the output.
One thing that has been driving me nuts though is that I have a bunch of newer records and they all seem to have a massive amount of static electricity related crackle to them. Anyone have any pointers for that?
Also, I ran myself sick going back and forth between getting a Technics SL-1210mk5(new one on craigslist) and heading the "audiophile" table route. What are people's thoughts on the difference between the "DJ" tables and the audiophile stuff?
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Also, I ran myself sick going back and forth between getting a Technics SL-1210mk5(new one on craigslist) and heading the "audiophile" table route. What are people's thoughts on the difference between the "DJ" tables and the audiophile stuff?
Some folks are huge fans of classic DD tables (Technics, Dual, Pioneer, etc) for their supposed speed accuracy vs. entry level belt-drive tables, but I don't really see much of an advantage there. You can get pretty good results from those tables certainly, provided you put a serious arm and cart on them, but you may be giving up a significant cost advantage depending on what you paid for the table initially. Some of the cart/arm/table package discounts are pretty massive vs. buying everything individually.
In my book the order of importance is cart > arm > table, but a good motor is definitely important.
Brushing in cleaning fluid and hand rinsing/drying will help your noise issues, but for the best results you really need a good RCM like a Nitty Gritty, Moth, or VPI 16.5. I'm normally not much of a VPI fan, but the 16.5 is excellent.
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I think the VPI will probably be my next purchase as the the crackle keeps making me do double takes thinking that something is distorting in the music.
Not a VPI fan? I had already planned out my "end of the line" table as the Aries 3 based on aesthetics alone but I suppose I will have to actually research beyond looking at the pictures. :&
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The VPI 16.5 is the best investment I've made in vinyl, bar none. I was hesitant, but once you hear clean records you never go back!
Lots of "stuff" going on with my vinyl rig... I'm hoping to get my SME 3009 back soon from total refurbish and rewire. Essentially it will be brand new. I'm adding a custom machined base because the "base" that was on the table when I got it was a total joke.
I'm also going to go with my first moving coil cartridge. A friend is setting me up with a NOS GAS Sleeping Beauty which should do well with the 3009 improved.
I am waiting on some iron from Cinemag to build my own step up for the MC.
Not so much vinyl, but analog anyway, I picked up a reel to reel to play around with. After some basic maintenance the first thing I plan to do is bypass the internals and build a tape stage for it. I really love the sound of tape, it's just too bad that the selection of material is very limited.
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Yah, I think I am hit by the vinyl bug bad and there are so many cheap good condition records out there. Listening to 1984 on vinyl was way too much fun. I definitely need a record cleaner for some of the older records as the surface noise is a lot more apparent.
One of the best headphone experiences I have had was listening to a Reel to Reel setup at a Bay Area headphone meet a few years back. If I recall correctly it was some uber amp built by the Bottlehead guys and a Sennheiser HD800. Just felt like I was right there with the artist.
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I think the VPI will probably be my next purchase as the the crackle keeps making me do double takes thinking that something is distorting in the music.
Not a VPI fan? I had already planned out my "end of the line" table as the Aries 3 based on aesthetics alone but I suppose I will have to actually research beyond looking at the pictures. :&
Yeah I don't like JMW arms. Also a friend of mine went through hell with them trying to get the motor for his TNT to actually work. For what the Aries 3 costs, I would suggest Origin Live instead. Their tables are all gorgeous and sound great, and their arms are as good as anyone's. I like Brinkmann, Kuzma, and Dr. Feickert too, but at "reasonable" prices O-L is my favorite.
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One of the best headphone experiences I have had was listening to a Reel to Reel setup at a Bay Area headphone meet a few years back. If I recall correctly it was some uber amp built by the Bottlehead guys and a Sennheiser HD800. Just felt like I was right there with the artist.
That's more or less the goal! I didn't go crazy with an ATR deck like Doc B's, but the Technics I got and the Bottlehead Eros Tape-pre should get me close. That and springing for some of the "Tape Project" master dubs.
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@shipsupt - the real question is: are you going to ship it in for the bay area meet or carry it on the airplane? :&
@DaveBSC - I checked out the origin live from your posts awhile back in the thread. Those do look pretty crazy.
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@DaveBSC - I checked out the origin live from your posts awhile back in the thread. Those do look pretty crazy.
Yep. I'm really curious how the Venture and Voyager will turn out. The Sovereign is already an absolute monster at its price point, so I really want to see what O-L can do when they go absolutely wild.
(http://www.originlive.com/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/u/turntable-venturer-angle.jpg)
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I have an old Milty anti-static gun that I use, but honestly it's a PITA to operate.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/MILTY-ZEROSTAT-3-ANTI-STATIC-GUN/dp/B0033SHDSS (http://www.amazon.co.uk/MILTY-ZEROSTAT-3-ANTI-STATIC-GUN/dp/B0033SHDSS)
Static sucks! Has anyone tried the Furutech Destat II? Spendy, but if it works as advertised I'd be up for spending some rubbles to reduce static.
http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75349.pdf (http://www.partsconnexion.com/prod_pdf/ftech_75349.pdf)
Other solutions?
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Which reel-to-reel did you get, ship? I keep seeing them pop up on craigslist. Where do you even get reel-to-reel media anyways??
@raif -- Thanks to a heads up from Struggles here, I got a Nitty Gritty 1.0 for real cheap. Ship and Dave aren't exaggerating when they say that is the best investment you can possibly make for your vinyl. I may upgrade to a VPI 16.5 whenever this thing breaks down, but I sorta like the idea that the Nitty Gritty has less moving parts to break and has a smaller footprint. Either way, you won't regret any vacuum cleaning machine you end up getting.
I'm in need of a cart upgrade soon. Been rocking the old Shure M97 since I got this rig set up. Been loving being a music head again and getting away from the gearhead mentality, but I do have issues with IGD with some records. Anyone have experience with the AT440MLA or AT33EV?
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Reel to Reel
I plan to grab some of the Bottlehead Tape Project masters so I went with one of the Pro-sumer decks that they recommend, the Technics 1506. The prices, even in the US, might shock you.
I'll upgrade the tape path and build an Eros stage to bypass the internals. It'll be similar to what you might have seen Ironbut bringing to meets.
http://www.tapeproject.com (http://www.tapeproject.com)
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue30/images/15.-Technics-1500.jpg)
(http://www.bottlehead.com/sc_images/products/440_image.jpg)
Availability of media is the problem. Most of the commercial stuff out there is either music I'm not interested in, or crap quality. The good stuff is so limited, and reallllly expensive. But when it's done right it's pretty spectacular to listen to.
Cart/Tonearm
I just got my SME improved tonearm back from http://www.smetonearms.com (http://www.smetonearms.com). I'm just amazed at the work they did, especially for the price. I am so happy I did not decide to rewire the arm myself, because I could not have done a better job for less money. And they completely rebuilt the arm so it looks and performs as if it was brand new! Awesome. I HIGHLY recommend them if you need some work done or are in the market for an SME. They are up in Canada.
I also made the jump from the M97, which I was quite happy with, to a vintage MC cart. It's the GAS Sleeping Beauty Shibata (Great American Sound). This means I'm building a MC step up transformer, using some Cinemag 1254's.
(http://i232.photobucket.com/albums/ee79/Old_School_BMW/Audio/DSC_0070.jpg)
(http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=19047&f=IMG_1728.jpg&self=)
A quick set up of the tone-arm and cart, using an old '80's MC step up, has simply blown me away. I really didn't know what a cartridge upgrade could do until now. Better dynamics, extension, detail retrieval, everything is better. And that's before I complete building upgraded step up and phono stages.
There's definitely a point of diminishing returns, and the table cost and capability need to be considered, but I am really happy I made the jump up!
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Anyone come across any listening impressions of those U-Turn Orbit turntables yet?
I know there was a bit of buzz about them during their Kickstarter campaign, with kids from Berklee and Northwestern building a $150 "audiophile" turntable.
I came across this review in Tone Audio Magazine (starts on page 35): http://www.tonepublications.com/MAGPDF/TA_59.pdf
The upgraded model with the acrylic platter and upgraded cartridge used to come equipped with an OM5E but now it looks like they're equipping it with the AT95E.
Thinking about this as a Xmas gift for my little brother.
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Unless the engineering really sucks, it's seems like a no way to loose option at $150. The AT95E is not a bad cartridge, and you could throw a Ortofon Red on there and still be coming home cheaper than a Pro-Ject Essential. Why spend more unless you know that your little bro is going to become a vinyl nut?
Be sure to let us know how it works out! :D
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Since most of the recent source talk 'round these parts has been DAC-related, I thought I'd give this thread a bit of a bump.
I've been meaning to get back into vinyl for a while now, but let's face it: having terabytes worth of high quality audio at your fingertips is a pretty irresistible convenience. Over the last few months however I've been fortunate enough to hear quite a few different systems ranging in price from four to six figures. Now, I'll come right out and say that I don't buy too heavily into either side of the whole "analog versus digital" battle, especially when so much of my music is created digitally to begin with, and especially when some of the better DACs these days are more or less able to render live music convincingly to my ears. DACs are still in my future, and in a big way. Yet listening to these record players these past few months, I've realized just how much I truly miss my vinyl. It just has this inner glow, the satisfying presence.
Also I just can't escape the fondness I have for musical automata, the intricate and ornate devices that spin and swivel, the insane level of craftsmanship that goes into assembling these contraptions. It's kind of poetic that vinyl itself hasn't changed much; it's always already given. Yet the same problems persist over the decades, tackled by engineers and designers who want to take a crack at solving them. There's also a social dimension to owning a turntable. It saddens me to think that generations will miss out on visiting brick and mortar record stores, flipping through rows of LPs and see what staff picks and new releases are up on the wall, talking with others and learning like a civilized creature. I learned a lot visiting the local record stores on a regular basis.
Plus unlike DSD there's a ton of amazing music available, and there continues to be.
So, now that I've gotten off of my soapbox, I figured I'd share some of my thoughts culled from the last few months. This was originally going to be a "vinyl 101" introduction-type post, but I figure I'll save the basics on turntable design and setup and all that for another time. Making an actual soapbox post---as in, a post in the soapbox section---seems better suited for that sort of thing. Best to keep that straight forward and organized, not cluttered by my subjective musings.
Audiophiles love binary opposition, taking sides in various debates. It goes with being an expert, that well traveled attitude afforded by decades of experience, be it first hand experience or magazine reading. There are plenty of sides to take when it comes to turntables: high mass versus low mass, plinth versus no plinth, this platter material versus that, unipivot tonearms versus others, belts versus direct drive, rubber versus silk cords, AC versus DC motors, magnetic suspension versus not, mats versus clamps, whether Linn fans need to be shunned, et cetera et cetera.
Personally, I've adopted a "wait and hear" attitude for the most part, largely because these things depend more on the actual implementation in my experience. I think most pirates here can recognize this in headphone amps: tubes can sound more stereotypically solid state than solid state and visa versa. The same thing happens in the world of turntables. Take the high mass versus low mass debate. Conventional wisdom holds that big, heavy turntables are more inert and less likely to resonate and shutter. I tend to agree with this, but I find it's more vital in the platter than the plinth in practice, and this all hinges on the main bearing.
Massive plinths or basses are characterized by their detractors as sounding dull, lacking the nimbleness of smaller more minimal designs or skeletal plinths. I find this is sometimes the case as in a lot of the "lower end" VPI models, but then the massive Galibier is one of the most articulate tables I've ever heard; it's definitely "high mass," but the bass is actually a complex network of chambers filled with various compounds. On the other hand lighter weight, more minimalist tables get characterized as responsive but sterile and lacking in tonal richness and authority; this is mostly true for lower-end Regas and Clearaudios but not the case with the P9 and especially Clearaudio's more streamlined Innovation line to my ears. Also the boundaries between plinth and plinth-less get blurred a bit because a lot of these super minimalist tables benefit from the additional of a stable platform anyhow; owners of Simon Yorke tables for instance almost always fix the separate pieces to a single base or even a huge multi-tiered stand.
Really, I think a lot of uber-bucks tables seem over-engineered. I say this from an aesthetics standpoint primarily, but also one of sound too. There's really something to be said for not having your design get in the way. This is why, for instance, Galibier decided to go with their relatively simplistic motor unit instead of something that has feedback loops monitoring speed. I mean if the motor is engineered well to begin with, you really shouldn't need an internal monitor like that right? Frankly I have no opinion either way on the AC versus DC debate, but rather I appreciate the modularity of the motor system that Galibier and also TW's Raven line employ. The Raven's motor unit in particular is quite cleverly designed in its new three pronged configuration, as it allows the belt to wind in a W shape and grip the platter in a less strained, smoother way.
In other words some solutions are elegant and genuinely effective, while others seem more like solutions to problems the designers invented in the first place. When I see all these support struts and frames on these mini Parthenon replicas costing hundreds of thousands of dollars, I honestly just assume one is paying for a functional sculpture first and foremost at that point. Nothing wrong with that per se. However I tend to feel like most $20k+ turntables are, quite frankly, off-putting in their design. Even the TW Raven AC and Black Night are pushing it, but at the end of the day they're saved by the subtle patterning of their satin finish and the functionally gorgeous copper platter. Just don't surround it with more than one motor satellite. As for the Galibier, it has an industrial chic look that pictures hate, but ol' Quasimoto's solid base---its geometric array of mirrors looking like something out of a primitive 3D videogame---hides a complex network lurking within, and I can't help but like a tease. With the additional of a Durand tonearm, a true thing of beauty, the coldness of the table gets a shock of warm organic woodworking and suddenly becomes a study in contrasts that intrigues me to no end.
Really though, it's the stunning sound of the TW Raven Black Night and the Galibier Stelvio that make me want them in my life most of all. "As it should be," according to hardcore audiophiles. The VPI HR-X is another biggun I wouldn't mind owning, really the most neutral but also most lively sounding member of its family, and just an all around good table in general. It's able to walk that thin line between technicality and bliss. Comparatively speaking though, the Black Night rides a unicycle on that tightrope. It does this while managing to look better too, though not because it's more stylized. If anything the HR-X has more of a distinct "look" that has nothing to do with its function. The Black Night's most beautiful features---its copper platter for instance---are first and foremost a testament to functionality.
I came to appreciate just how important the motor design is in allow the platter and main bearing to shine. After all, a platter has to turn at a consistent speed to keep the music from veering off course. Also important to this end is the belt. Rubber, the old standby, works fairly well if its implemented soundly. The Galibier's mylar proved to be the best overall though, at least by a small margin. I noticed some very slight inconsistencies with rubber, almost akin to DAC jitter to borrow the analogy from Thom Mackris. Really though, I think it again depends on the implementation more than anything. One thing was sure though: silk or fabric cords, while quieter, do indeed result in a slight blurring of the overall image.
When it came to the length of the belt, I honestly felt the shorter drives closer to the coupling were just as good, if not better in some ways compared to the external motor units or "pods." Of course this extradition is done for the sake of resonance, and it's probably reasonable to worry about vibrations transferring over from everything being so closed together, yet some solid and straightforward engineering seems to mostly take care of this. It's here that I feel my love for plinths start to resurface. Really, nothing appeals to me more than an inert multi-layered plinth with clever close arrangements like that of a fine watch. The Ayre DPS is truly a thing of beauty, both in terms of what you can and can't see, a composite of different materials. It's one thing to have a large, sturdy plinth to draw in all that energy; it's another thing to find a way to channel that energy and send it away. When you look at the Spiral Groove turntables, they honestly seem quite understated and maybe even a little "boring" compared to the fanciful alternatives. If I were to buy a super high-end turntable right now though, the Spiral Grooves would be at the top of my list: they're simply some of the most inert, most elegant, most straightforward, and quietest turntables I've ever encountered at any price. They run more smoothly than just about anything out there.
The Thales TTT looks to be another turntable along those lines. I practically drool when I see pictures of it.
I'm also curious about using batteries to power turntables. Perhaps it seems like a gimmick, but if you live in an area with dirty, unreliable power like I do, having an "off the grid" source is quite appealing. It might make for more consistent performance. The Thales TTT appears to use batteries as does the relatively overlooked line of Amazon Audio turntables. The Amazon Referenz is another turntable whose design really speaks to me: a solid, multi-level plinth with energy management via its design, clever suspension, and a substantial platter with seemingly well-implemented bearing.
What's the proper order of importance: table -> tonearm -> cart, or cart -> tonearm -> table? Honestly, I think both are misguided. The best answer to me lies in viewing the entire setup as a singular entity, a record player. It's all in the synergy, and the best table is going to fall flat if the arm sucks and visa versa. That's why I'm increasingly sold on the idea of manufacturers heavily investing themselves in designing both the table and the arm together as a unit. Really, I wouldn't want to pair a Well Tempered Labs table with anything other than their goofy gold ball tonearm or the Dynavector DV500 for which they were also made.
Of course, trying out a second tonearm and cartridge on the same table can be a lot of fun.
On that note, I was impressed by the included arms on the Well Tempered Labs (love love love that golf ball design LOL), Nottingham Analogue, and especially the Funk Firm Sapphire II. That Funk Firm F.X ---F Dot Cross---was just awesome and chewed up most of the competition. On the high end, the Durand arms impressed me most. They are true works of art. The Centroid arm from Spiral Groove was also mighty fine. The SME arm on the VPI HR-X had good synergy with that table, though I'm curious to try VPI's new 3D printed arm.
Cartridges? The ZYX UNIverse II remains the best cartridge I've ever heard, a definite step up from the original UNIverse which was a bit thin sounding at times. It just sounded the most effortless, the most tonally correct, and did an excellent job moving out of the way so to speak. The Lyra carts are pretty much great across the range. The Miyajima I heard was very seductive (can't remember the exact model name), while the Shelter Harmony seemed more transparent. I also remember liking the Van den Hul Frog quite a bit, though I can't remember many specifics --- which might be a good thing. I do remember it was bright green though.
I need more phono stage experience, but two of my favorite "reasonable" options are the Dynavector and the Manley Chinook. My favorite not-so-reasonable phono-pre was the Doshi Alaap by a considerable margin. Understated to look at certainly, but quality built and top notch components and an overall feeling of quality through and through.
A few other errant notes:
The Clearaudio Innovation is a definite improvement over all the "lesser" models. I've always felt Clearaudio tables to sound too dry and analytical, lacking a satisfying sense of depth. Ever since they started putting that bullet proof limousine wood into them however, they've gained a much more natural sound. I think the Compact Innovation is an example of a skeletal table done right. Once you put them on that huge reference stand though they become repulsive.
Direct drive is once again becoming a trend of sorts, as an improvement in motor technology makes it much more appealing in theory. Ultimately I think it comes down to implementation. I'm sounding like a broken record huh? The VPI Classic Direct Drive model for $20k doesn't interest me at all, but I am quite curious about the Brinkmann Bardo. It's one of the most minimalist, stripped down tables I've seen thus far, and it's pulled off very elegantly.
The Full Circle from Wilson Benesch is another super minimalist design that still looks great, and it's one that performs well with its included single piece carbon fibre tonearm.
Say what you will about the Linn Sondek LP-12 being past its prime and a flawed design, but I think it still sounds good. When it's fully upgraded, I'd even say it's competitive in its class. Really, I think there's value in "historical" products, and I don't think it's problematic to continue to recommend them to people, because people have a natural propensity toward archeology. I say that with the utmost respect too. I don't find artifacts "dead" but actually quite alive and relevant in their own way. The Linn, as a cultural artifact, still has something to tell us I think. It also still plays records well and looks damned fine doing it. Honestly, the Linn is an example of a product that manages to transcend its own limitations and still work well despite definite flaws. It's a product whose execution was so well done and "soul" (for lack of a better word) was so apparent for some, that it ended up having staying power when its competitors---often those with better designs---failed to leave much of a mark.
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Excellent post. I find I like at least a fairly high-mass design paired with a low-output MC.
I think the Durand, Graham, and Kuzma arms are as good as just about anything out there. I am *not* a fan of the SME V, or any of the JMWs. I can deal with unipivots (my Ace Space 294 is one) but JMWs are just too annoying to use.
As far as carts, Universe II yes, absolutely. If you haven't heard the Benz LP-S class though, you really need to. It's right up there with the ZYX for WAY less money, and with rock, I would say it's actually better. It's hard to call a $5K cartridge a "good value" but honestly the LP-S will take on ANY cart you can throw at it, even the ones that cost 3X as much. I also really like Miyajima carts, and of course, Shelter. When I saw a 7000 brand new for $1700, I had to have it.
As far as phono pres go, Aesthetix as a brand has been very hit and miss for me, but ZOMG did they nail their phono stages. Wow. Epically good. Ultimately I prefer SS phono pres though as noise is considerably more critical with a phono pre than it is with a linestage or speaker amp.
For less than $2K you can get an excellent sounding SS phono pre like the Liberty B2B-1, LFD Phono LE Special, or Simaudio 310LP, and of course there's no need to hunt down uber quiet 12AX7s. Plus, as good as the best $10-20K tube based phono pres are, the SS Boulder and Vitus pres still beat them.
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I'm a linear-tracking tonearm diehard and for the past several years use the Goldmund Studio turntable with T-3F. I like the consistent sound quality they provide from start to finish without the inner groove distortion and edginess from pivoted tonearms, which I've used earlier including the Alphason Xenon MCS, Rega RB300, Graham 1.5T, and SME V. For linear trackers I've owned the Rabco SL-8E, Souther Triquartz, various Airtangents, and have also experience with the Versa Dynamics 2.0 and Forsell turntable.
The Thales is an interesting tonearm and I was eager to see it in person at CES a few years ago. When you touch the cartridge area, it moves easily in directions it shouldn't. While the idea is intriguing, I think it practice it will be incredibly difficult to make those extra bearing joints rigid. A frequency sweep of the tonearm like how Hi-Fi Choice and HFNRR used to do in the UK will expose these weaknesses.
For a great sounding low-mass turntable, look into the old Voyds with their 3 motors. Their only drawback is they can only work with pivoted arms because of their low sprung mass versus the moving center of gravity for a linear tracker.
Now back to work on the phono stage.
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I'm a linear-tracking tonearm diehard and for the past several years use the Goldmund Studio turntable with T-3F. I like the consistent sound quality they provide from start to finish without the inner groove distortion and edginess from pivoted tonearms, which I've used earlier including the Alphason Xenon MCS, Rega RB300, Graham 1.5T, and SME V. For linear trackers I've owned the Rabco SL-8E, Souther Triquartz, various Airtangents, and have also experience with the Versa Dynamics 2.0 and Forsell turntable.
Have you tried the Trans-Fi Terminator? I haven't used one, but I've heard very good things about it. I'd have to say my favorite arm overall is the Kuzma Air Line.
(http://www.trans-fi.com/Terminator%20III/Tomahawk/T3Tom2.JPG)
(http://www.audiofreaks.co.uk/images/2006-10-KUZMA-airline.jpg)
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If I were to start all over I'd probably go with a linear tracker as well. Actually, probably one of the automated LTs.
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If I were to start all over I'd probably go with a linear tracker as well. Actually, probably one of the automated LTs.
Keep in mind that there's a reason why LTs aren't all that popular. There are just as many downsides as there are upsides - you're moving A LOT of mass in the horizontal plane compared to a pivoted arm, and it's not easy to do that. Many of the LT arms are no longer around either because they were unreliable, or didn't actually sound that good, or probably both. You can actually end up with a situation where the arm, particularly if it isn't properly damped, will actually start controlling the cantilever instead of the other way around, which is *bad*.
I should also add that as much as I enjoy listening to the Air Line, I would never want to actually own one. It is a bitch to use with a capital B.
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The Thales is an interesting tonearm and I was eager to see it in person at CES a few years ago. When you touch the cartridge area, it moves easily in directions it shouldn't. While the idea is intriguing, I think it practice it will be incredibly difficult to make those extra bearing joints rigid. A frequency sweep of the tonearm like how Hi-Fi Choice and HFNRR used to do in the UK will expose these weaknesses.
Do you by chance mean the original Thales arm? (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=Thales-original). I haven't had the pleasure of trying it, but it looks really wild. I'm only familiar with their more straight forward Simplicity arm (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=simplicity). As someone pointed out, it sort of resembles a pair of chopsticks holding a cartridge.
Goldmund tables are very alien to me, as I haven't had a chance to hear them yet and most folks I know haven't either. Linear trackers kinda scare me if I'm being perfectly honest, though that's not always a bad thing... a little intimidation from your gear can be good in fact. Like anything I'm sure it's a matter of implementation, as the ones I'm more familiar with were definitely a mixed bag.
Oh, and I forgot to mention this, but I was also very impressed by the Centroid arm that's meant to go with the Spiral Groove tables. Really as a whole package, I think the SG2 may be the one for me. The guy behind it also worked for SOTA for a while, and in particular he designed the SOTA Cosmos, which I also really liked in its price range. The Spiral Grooves are sort of his design philosophy taken to the next level, as he was restricted by certain limitations when he was working with SOTA. The Cosmos is that design taken to its most extreme (which is why its successor, the Millennium, is kind of a departure for SOTA). When he was prototyping ideas, he discovered things he couldn't really do with the commercial stuff at the time, so he saved them for his new project working under its own heading. Pretty neat.
Another fairly recent endeavor by a well known designer: http://realturntable.com/
Really curious 'bout that one too.
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Keep in mind that there's a reason why LTs aren't all that popular. There are just as many downsides as there are upsides - you're moving A LOT of mass in the horizontal plane compared to a pivoted arm, and it's not easy to do that.
I believe linear tracking tonearms loss popularity due to engineering complexity. Why sweat the bullets developing a killer linear arm when people seem happy spending $$$ on a unipivot balanced on a needle?!
Regarding the high lateral mass, this is the advantage of the Goldmund T-3. It's essentially servo controlled pivoted arm that moves on a linear track. To me you can get the best of both worlds if done properly, and if I were to develop a tonearm it would be along these lines.
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Do you by chance mean the original Thales arm? (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=Thales-original). I haven't had the pleasure of trying it, but it looks really wild. I'm only familiar with their more straight forward Simplicity arm (http://www.tonarm.ch/index.php?page=simplicity). As someone pointed out, it sort of resembles a pair of chopsticks holding a cartridge.
Yes, I was referring to their original tonearm. One the sample I touched at CES I found play in the bearings near the cartridge mounting and to me this is unacceptable. Their new Simplicity tonearm reminds me of the Garrard Zero-100 with dual arm wands and bearing problems.
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Wow. Reading this thread. p:0
*takes his Debut Carbon and walks home*
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Wow. Reading this thread. p:0
*takes his Debut Carbon and walks home*
I know most folks try to maximize sonic experience in whatever way afforded to them, and most of us are drawn to or impressed by elite gear, but there's something more - much more - when it comes vinyl. While I have a decent vinyl system, what drew me to record playing wasn't just the sound or the potential system I could build around it, but also the simple wonder of handling records, viewing a close-up, 12" view of the visual artwork the artist chose to represent her music, gently sliding out a record from its cover and deftly using fingers and palms in just the right way to place it on the platter with minimal contact and impact, sweeping away dust and particles at the best angle and force while feeling the record spin round and round beneath the brush, buying in bulk the right type of anti-static, scratch-resistant inner sleeve and durable outer sleeve to protect records, reading countless articles/posts about the best formula of record cleaning solutions -- these are just a few reasons why the experience of vinyl extends far beyond the gear we own.
The respect for the experience, for the privilege of listening to music we enjoy, this is why we should own records and record players.
tl;dr = enjoy your Pro-ject table and records.
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Givemevinyl's comments ring true. I never enjoyed vinyl more than when I was in college, and at the time I had an entry-level Rega and a very basic Stax setup, which was still pretty luxurious for a college student. Most if not all of my spare money (which wasn't much) went to buying music rather than gear though. One roommate at the time was always complaining about my records taking up space, and she'd periodically demand to know why I wouldn't just download stuff from iTunes. When I explained the appeal I just got an impatient stare.
Not only is it a pleasure to handle records (so long as you don't live in a dusty place --- then it's more a nightmare than anything), but it's also a good feeling knowing you're supporting small-time artists, labels, and businesses. Several of my friends actually do graphic design and make album covers for smaller labels, including one guy I know who spends months drawing ridiculous old school death metal covers by hand. There's an entire culture that goes along with record collecting, and most people are perfectly happy with their gear even if it doesn't cost as much as a new car.
On the flip side, I know folks live Dave aren't so much into that ancillary stuff but genuinely like vinyl because it often sounds better. The most straight forward reason for this is that better masters often make their way onto vinyl compared to their CD and downloadable counterparts. Mostly because people putting out vinyl are more likely to actually care about what they're doing (but certainly not always --- especially now that it has become more mainstream again). In my experience, you get some of the best bang for your buck by upgrading your turntable gear. Even spending more on a new cartridge can bring you a whole new level of enjoyment over something that comes standard with your table. In other words, diminishing returns are often less apparent when it comes to more expensive turntable gear versus other gear in my experience.
For me it's a little bit of both. Back when I was in college I thought audiophiles were silly. I still do, but now I have the luxury of being silly myself. Really though, enjoying music doesn't depend on this stuff for most people. Some of the best moments where I got most into what I was listening to came with my iBuds. Like they say about cameras: the equipment you have isn't as important as what you do with it.
As for linear tracking arms, I'll definitely give them another go at some point. I tend to think everything in this hobby has its trade-offs, that there's no free lunch so to speak, and with linear tracking arms it always seemed to be their extreme fussiness and unreliability that made them a compromise of sorts. In other words, they may have nothing but benefits musically, but most folks I know who have lived with them say they're an absolute bear to maintain. I know for some folks though that's part of the fun of maintaining an expensive rig. That's why someone I know has a Verdier Platine and isn't bothered pouring lubricant into it and catching it as it drips out onto the table below. Unipivots definitely have some major compromises and flaws of their own, but I admire their (relative) straightforwardness and elegance.
Looking at Goldmund, their Studio table is very highly regarded. I bet it sounds dreamy. it appears they no longer make turntables however, and that would worry me in terms of replacement parts and servicing. Hmm.
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On the flip side, I know folks live Dave aren't so much into that ancillary stuff but genuinely like vinyl because it often sounds better. The most straight forward reason for this is that better masters often make their way onto vinyl compared to their CD and downloadable counterparts. Mostly because people putting out vinyl are more likely to actually care about what they're doing (but certainly not always --- especially now that it has become more mainstream again). In my experience, you get some of the best bang for your buck by upgrading your turntable gear. Even spending more on a new cartridge can bring you a whole new level of enjoyment over something that comes standard with your table. In other words, diminishing returns are often less apparent when it comes to more expensive turntable gear versus other gear in my experience.
As for linear tracking arms, I'll definitely give them another go at some point. I tend to think everything in this hobby has its trade-offs, that there's no free lunch so to speak, and with linear tracking arms it always seemed to be their extreme fussiness and unreliability that made them a compromise of sorts. In other words, they may have nothing but benefits musically, but most folks I know who have lived with them say they're an absolute bear to maintain. I know for some folks though that's part of the fun of maintaining an expensive rig. That's why someone I know has a Verdier Platine and isn't bothered pouring lubricant into it and catching it as it drips out onto the table below. Unipivots definitely have some major compromises and flaws of their own, but I admire their (relative) straightforwardness and elegance.
Well said. While there is a certain satisfaction to pulling a nice minty record out of its sleeve as compared to say, a few mouse clicks in Foobar or taps on my phone, the rest of it I could frankly do without. My Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro makes cleaning about as painless as is possible, but it's still not something I would say that I enjoy, I just put up with it. Same with the rest of it. Honestly if all of my favorite bands starting releasing their vinyl masters on DVDs like Iced Earth just did or as downloadable FLAC or WAV files, I would probably sell off my entire vinyl rig the next day. I just don't see that happening any time soon.
For whatever reason, vinyl (or rather vinyl masters), have pretty much always sounded better than CD, both before and after the loudness war. In the early to mid '80s I think the limitations of primitive A/D conversion probably had something to do with that, as the masters would all be tape that would have to be transferred. Of course now that's no problem, just listen to the Analogue Productions SACDs, or even their CDs. Back then though the tools weren't nearly as good.
Even as CD mastering tools improved in the '90s though, vinyl was still better. Just compare the CD version of an album like Superunknown to the German 320 vinyl press, it's not even a contest. And of course now major label executives will demand that your CD is DR5 so it's "competitive," which has the effect of destroying the kick drum and the bass guitar. Vinyl has managed to stay out of the war, and as long as a dedicated master is used and the cutting engineer knows what he or she is doing, it's an easy win for wax.
I definitely agree that upgrades to an analog rig can bring huge improvements... with the caveat that they also bring considerable improvements in complexity. When you buy a $500ish turntable, pretty much all the work is basically done for you, you'll just need to set the VTF and put the anti-skating weight on, and check the azimuth. Rega arms don't even have an adjustment for VTA. The more you spend, the more tweaking and adjusting you'll have to do. The end of that line is something like the Kuzma Air Line. If your setup isn't perfectly, perfectly level, it's unusable. And you'll still have to re-level it every time you play a record. It also doesn't like LPs that aren't cut perfectly flat. You generally don't fuck around with an air bearing arm if you know what's good for you, though from what I've heard, the Trans-Fi Terminator is less painful than most others to use. It also costs around $1500 depending on wiring as compared to the Air Line's $8K or so.
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The loudness war mentioned above is exactly why I went to vinyl and I've really enjoyed the experience. I also tend to listen to music more closely when there's a ritualistic nature to the listening experience, which is something vinyl clearly provides over digital.
My frustration is that I want the best of BOTH. I've ripped a couple of records and I think they've come out alright, but it's a TON of work and I've still got sections that I'm not happy with due to my hardware/software limitations. I'm glad that most records these days are coming with digital download cards, but the majority of them so far have been .mp3s which are pretty much worthless to me. I've had one or two come with .flac downloads. The day all records start going down that road will be a happy day indeed.
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My frustration is that I want the best of BOTH. I've ripped a couple of records and I think they've come out alright, but it's a TON of work and I've still got sections that I'm not happy with due to my hardware/software limitations. I'm glad that most records these days are coming with digital download cards, but the majority of them so far have been .mp3s which are pretty much worthless to me. I've had one or two come with .flac downloads. The day all records start going down that road will be a happy day indeed.
Yup, needle dropping is an ordeal. It's so labor intensive that I mostly just send my records to one of my friends, he doesn't seem to mind it as much. The digital download coupons or Amazon autorip or whatever has basically zero interest to me, because with every example I've come across, the digital download you get is the CD master. If I wanted that, I would've bought the CD. If they started giving you FLAC files of the vinyl master, that would be a WHOLE different ball of wax.
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My frustration is that I want the best of BOTH. I've ripped a couple of records and I think they've come out alright, but it's a TON of work and I've still got sections that I'm not happy with due to my hardware/software limitations. I'm glad that most records these days are coming with digital download cards, but the majority of them so far have been .mp3s which are pretty much worthless to me. I've had one or two come with .flac downloads. The day all records start going down that road will be a happy day indeed.
Yup, needle dropping is an ordeal. It's so labor intensive that I mostly just send my records to one of my friends, he doesn't seem to mind it as much. The digital download coupons or Amazon autorip or whatever has basically zero interest to me, because with every example I've come across, the digital download you get is the CD master. If I wanted that, I would've bought the CD. If they started giving you FLAC files of the vinyl master, that would be a WHOLE different ball of wax.
I'll take lossless rips of the CD for my digital copy rather than not having a digital copy at all. It's not ideal, but at least I have the vinyl on hand when I'm at home.
FLAC files from the vinyl master? Yes please. That would be life-changing, haha.
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I know most folks try to maximize sonic experience in whatever way afforded to them, and most of us are drawn to or impressed by elite gear, but there's something more - much more - when it comes vinyl. While I have a decent vinyl system, what drew me to record playing wasn't just the sound or the potential system I could build around it, but also the simple wonder of handling records, viewing a close-up, 12" view of the visual artwork the artist chose to represent her music, gently sliding out a record from its cover and deftly using fingers and palms in just the right way to place it on the platter with minimal contact and impact, sweeping away dust and particles at the best angle and force while feeling the record spin round and round beneath the brush, buying in bulk the right type of anti-static, scratch-resistant inner sleeve and durable outer sleeve to protect records, reading countless articles/posts about the best formula of record cleaning solutions -- these are just a few reasons why the experience of vinyl extends far beyond the gear we own.
The respect for the experience, for the privilege of listening to music we enjoy, this is why we should own records and record players.
tl;dr = enjoy your Pro-ject table and records.
i enjoyed the process as you described, but i what i really liked was walking into a record store and flipping through the racks. i came home with so much random music that i would never discovered with a different playback medium. when my two fav record stores shut down, i sold the TT rig. i do really enjoy Spotify and MOG, but it's not the same.
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i enjoyed the process as you described, but i what i really liked was walking into a record store and flipping through the racks.
Me too. I like it so much that I tried to recreate it at home...
http://imgur.com/xlkwtjU (http://imgur.com/xlkwtjU)
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too awesome.
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Seriously GMV, that is all sorts of awesome. Did you buy those, or did you make them? When I get a bigger place, I'm definitely switching my storage from some Expedit units to something like yours.
Cool to read about what folks find appealing about vinyl. I'm glad I'm not the only crazy that likes to get into the ritual of listening to music on vinyl.
I started collecting in high school as I used to DJ. By the time I went to college, I amassed a dozen crates full records which could never have fit into my dorm room. So I bought an iPod, donated all of my crates and never looked back. It was convenient to have all of that music at my fingertips, but it also gave me ADHD when it came to listening to music. Didn't like the first 30 seconds of a track? NEXT. Some of my favorite albums in high school, I didn't even like upon first or second spins but ones that grew on me over time.
So was helping my dad clean out his garage one day and came across the pair of 1200's that I used. Dusted them off and bought a bunch of audiophile jazz pressings and have been hooked ever since. At the beginning, I only stuck to vinyl with good masters on all-analog chains, but eventually I began to enjoy collecting the limited color first presses, and tour variants, and special editions of records. I totally understand the latter reason is completely nonsensical and plays right into marketing hype, but I don't care. It's the easiest way to maintain my hipster cred.
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Love the recent posts here.
This year I'll be upgrading my beloved Rega P7 to one of these:
Nottingham Space 294
(http://www.sales.highendpalace.com/8R11.jpg)
Well Tempered Versalex
(http://pitchperfectaudio.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/versalex-rnd1.jpg)
Funk Firm Saffire III
(http://www.audio-activity.com/uploads/1/3/0/9/13098779/2471300_orig.jpg?385)
(http://www.analogueseduction.net/user/products/large/1284916420_saffire_w450_h400.jpg)
(http://www.audio-activity.com/uploads/1/3/0/9/13098779/4922101_orig.jpg?380)
And, eventually, I'll make the big leap to one of these...
Spiral Grooves SG1.1
(http://www.spiral-groove.com/Spiral_Groove/SG_1.1_files/_1030310_1.JPG)
Thale TTT-Compact
(http://www.maestrogarage.com/data/maestrogarage/product/thales_ttt-c_1.jpg)
Bauer DPS
(http://www.croak.co.za/junk/dps-cherry.jpg)
Basis Signature Debut
(http://goodwinshighend.com/images_product/basis/debut.jpg)
Amazon Referenz
(http://www.sorasound.com/wp-content/gallery/amazon_audio/amazon-IMG_Referenz-Totale2_B.jpg)
Kuzma Stabi Ref. 2
(https://www.planetofsoundonline.com/pImgs/8092685751315001976.jpg)
Verdier Platine
(http://www.premier-hifi.com/images/JCVerdier/Platine.jpg)
VPI HR-X
(https://vpiindustries.com/images/products/hrx.jpg)
Raven AC
(http://www.soundstage.com/vinyl/pics/200804_twacustic_raven_ac_600.jpg)
EDIT: MOAR PR0N
Dr. Feickert Firebird (---I love this table <3)
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/highend2012/050312/feickert_firebird.jpg)
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/032312DrFeickert-600.jpg)
Bergmann Magne (w/ air bearing platter and linear tracking arm)
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/Bergmann_Magne_turntable.jpg)
McIntosh MT10 (I think this is a Clearaudio re-badge, but gee it looks funky!)
(http://www.electronichouse.com/images/slideshow/McIntosh_MT10-1.jpg)
(http://www.stereomojo.com/FSIReport2008/images/DSC_0240_thumbnail_000.jpg)
Merrill Williams REAL
(http://www.osageaudio.com/images/MW/R.E.A.L._with_12_Inch_Arm.JPG)
And last but not least...
The Shindo 301 (a highly modified Garrard 301 w/ new bearing, plinth, arm, etc.)
(http://www.pitchperfectaudio.com/PPA%20Shindo%20301.jpg)
(http://pitchperfectaudio.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/dsc0795.jpg)
IMO quite possibly the most beautiful turntable ever made.
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Thorens TD-124 with SME 3009 arm. :o
(http://i30.tinypic.com/z4rjr.jpg)
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Seriously GMV, that is all sorts of awesome. Did you buy those, or did you make them? When I get a bigger place, I'm definitely switching my storage from some Expedit units to something like yours.
Cool to read about what folks find appealing about vinyl. I'm glad I'm not the only crazy that likes to get into the ritual of listening to music on vinyl.
I started collecting in high school as I used to DJ. By the time I went to college, I amassed a dozen crates full records which could never have fit into my dorm room. So I bought an iPod, donated all of my crates and never looked back. It was convenient to have all of that music at my fingertips, but it also gave me ADHD when it came to listening to music. Didn't like the first 30 seconds of a track? NEXT. Some of my favorite albums in high school, I didn't even like upon first or second spins but ones that grew on me over time.
So was helping my dad clean out his garage one day and came across the pair of 1200's that I used. Dusted them off and bought a bunch of audiophile jazz pressings and have been hooked ever since. At the beginning, I only stuck to vinyl with good masters on all-analog chains, but eventually I began to enjoy collecting the limited colour first presses, and tour variants, and special editions of records. I totally understand the latter reason is completely nonsensical and plays right into marketing hype, but I don't care. It's the easiest way to maintain my hipster cred.
Get them from http://www.lpbin.com. They're heavy as hell, but worth the weight, space and money. He advertises 560 LPs per case, but it's more like 500 (mostly because I prefer some room for flipping). Also, I prefer the original LPBin over the LPBin2, which converts the bottom bin to spine-view. I also use a Bin-e http://www.lpbin.com/bin-e, which holds my latest purchases and favorite records of the month and set right next to my TT.
As much I love and always will love listening to records, I have recently begun to appreciate the convenience of a music server. But man, in addition to the sonic virtues of records, there's just something about organizing my records (which I'll re-do every few months) and flipping through them.
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Well Tempered Versalex
(http://pitchperfectaudio.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/versalex-rnd1.jpg)
Love the looks of this one...
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Love the recent posts here.
This year I'll be upgrading my beloved Rega P7 to one of these:
Nottingham Space 294
+1 for the Ace Space. I'm pleased as punch with mine. First time in awhile that I'm totally satisfied with my analog rig.
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Couldn't help myself... added more to the pr0n stash. The Dr. Feickert is one of my favorite high-end models, and the ridiculous Shindo restoration of the Garrard 301 is IMO one of the most beautiful turntables of all time. The price is absurd for a restoration, but like 80% of the turntable is new stuff Shindo-san added. New bearing, new plinth, new tonearm, etc.
Love the looks of this one...
Yeah! Personally, I'm all for more "classic" looking tables. In other words solid rectangular or rounded-corner plinths with intelligent material choice and construction, integrated short-distance belts, et cetera.
Well Tempered is known for very clever, elegant engineering using idiosyncratic approaches. Their tonearm for instance uses an actual golf ball...
(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/20130102203934_WTL_Versalex_7_101212.jpg)
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And just so I'm not leaving out more reasonably priced tables, here are some of my favs:
Funk Firm Little Superdeck:
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/FF%20LSD%20Blk-Blk%20Clear%20Glass%20Platter%20Blk%20Apo%20web.jpg)
(http://shop.generubinaudio.com/images/IMG_8230.jpg)
Well Tempered Simplex:
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/pics/wtl_simplex_rear.jpg)
The name is a bit unfortunate... reminds me of herpes. Ugh.
SOTA Comet III:
(http://www.analogueseduction.net/products/large/hires_comet.jpg)
Kuzma Stabi S:
(http://www.kuzma.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pictures/3.2.1.02.01.-stabi-s-no-lid2.jpg)
Pink Triangle Anniversary:
(http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb278/virnuls/IMGA1399.jpg)
Manticore Mantra:
(http://i300.photobucket.com/albums/nn7/cjarchez/100_0527.jpg)
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The Dr. Feickert is one of my favorite high-end models
Me too, along with Amazon. Speaking of pr0n, don't forget this guy:
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/ces2012/pics2/kronos.jpg)
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Ah, yeah, the Kronos. A bit out of my league but very neat with its counter spinning platters. A similar concept on a [relatively] less expensive table:
(http://www.astrasuite.com/client-system-albums/albums/userpics/10001/47-labs-turntable-20120609_0003-950-583.jpg)
(http://www.astrasuite.com/client-system-albums/albums/userpics/10001/47-labs-turntable-20120609_0005-950x713.jpg)
(http://img.hifitest.de/plattenspieler_47_lab_koma_bild_1314782766.jpg)
The 47 Labs Koma
I don't have any first hand experience with 47 Labs, but the designer is really intriguing and makes some great stuff like the PiTracer and Treasure CD players:
(http://www.sorasound.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/pitracer.jpg)
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue18/images/093_47_Labs_4704-04_PiTracer_Sakura_Systems_room.jpg)
(http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/blogs/rjm/attachments/536d1324089606-47-labs-0647-treasure-cd-player-diy-kit-0647.jpg)
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Yeah! Personally, I'm all for more "classic" looking tables. In other words solid rectangular or rounded-corner plinths with intelligent material choice and construction, integrated short-distance belts, et cetera.
Well Tempered is known for very clever, elegant engineering using idiosyncratic approaches. Their tonearm for instance uses an actual golf ball...
(http://www.hifi.nl/gfx/20130102203934_WTL_Versalex_7_101212.jpg)
Me too, one of the reasons I love my VPI Classic 3.
And golf ball? Genius.
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Continuing on with my parade of turntable pornography---and in the spirit of my diatribes on design methodology and implementation---I thought I'd take a moment to post about different drive systems.
Recently I discovered a brand I had never heard of before called TTWeights. They manufacture "rim drive" turntables with optional copper platters (weighing 40lbs!).
(http://www.ttweights.com/i/ElimElimArm%20ULT/eliminator_VTA_006.jpg)
(http://www.ttweights.webdesignplaza-site-builder.com/i/Eliminator%20CU99/frontpics.jpg)
(http://www.ttweights.com/i/MOMENTUS%20COPPER/agon13.jpg)
The last picture shows a close up of the "rim drive" system.
Transrotor makes some really impressive magnetic drive systems.
(http://www.transrotor.de/images/stories/la_roccia_reference_tmd/img/La-Roccia-Reference-TMD-Bild-1.JPG)
La Roccia Reference TMD
Has a solid stone plinth... very handsome.
(http://www.transrotor.de/images/stories/rondino_fmd_neu_2010/img/Rondino-FMD-neu-2010-Bild-1.JPG)
Rondino FMD
Comes in black and white/gold finishes as well.
(http://www.transrotor.de/images/stories/fat_bob_reference_tmd/img/Fat-Bob-Reference-TMD-Bild-1.jpg)
Fat Bob Reference TMD
I had a chance to listen to the Fat Bob not too long ago, and IMO it bested a similarly priced table from Avid and TW Acustics.
Another example of magnetic drive is the exceedingly minimalistic Brinkmann Bardo...
(http://brinkmann-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/bardo.jpg)
(http://brinkmann-audio.com/inhalt/bilder/bardo2.jpg)
It uses a direct drive system with a motor that has field coils, so direct magnetic drive in some sense. I think there's definitely something to direct drive, and in theory it provides a number of advantages over belt drive. However it comes down, once again, to implementation. That should be my mantra: implementation.... implementation. The demands it puts on the motor are intense, so the motor has to be extremely high quality and quite advanced to cope without having any cogging effects. For the most part, direct drive was found among lower cost decks in the 70s and 80s which did not have the requisite motor technology to really take advantage of it. The world class (and quite costly) Goldmund Studio in the 80s was direct drive however, and since then it's shown up in some of the very best tables. These days it's especially trendy in the high-end market. VPI makes a direct drive version of their Classic that costs roughly $22k. That's $18k more than the standard Classic!
Kodo's turntable is exceedingly awkward to type and say.
It's literally called "The Beat."
Not The Kodo Beat, but The Kodo The Beat.
It's quite a lovely table, and included in its hefty price is a service where the designer will travel to your home to set everything up for you and teach you how to do the same. He'll even eat your food free of charge! I kid. Maybe.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5333/9964492503_221c061acc_c.jpg)
(http://www.xactaudio.com/images/KODO%20with%20banckground.jpg)
What makes The Beat such an interesting contender is its magnetic drive system that neither uses belts (like the Fat Bob) or is direct drive in the tradition sense (like the Bardo). That's because the motor never comes into physical contact with the platter.
Really though, it's another belt drive table that has caught my eye... the AMG Viella 12 and matching tonearm:
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/thumbs/amv_viella_12_tas_226.jpg.648x460_q85.jpg)
(http://audiofederation.com/ces-2012/i/IMG_3256-amg-turntable-small.jpg)
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/amv%20viella%2012%20tas%20226-8.jpg)
The tonearm in particular has a curious piece of engineering: a vertical bearing whose inspiration came from the rotorheads of helicopters. Overall, I like the pulled together look that is self-contained but still have a bit of flourish.
Thanks in part to Donald's endorsement, I'm really anxious to try linear tracking again. The Kuzma Stabi Ref. and Airline are practically ubiquitous now.
(http://www.kuzma.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pictures/3.1.6.31.-air-line-on-stabi-ref.jpg)
I've just never been that fond of Kuzma's aesthetic, particularly in the Stabi Ref.
In contrast, the airbearing turntables from Bergmann are achingly beautiful in their simplicity.
(http://www.bergmannaudio.com/pagemod.gallery.full.asp?imgid=205)
(http://www.bergmannaudio.com/pagemod.gallery.full.asp?imgid=206)
(http://www.bergmannaudio.com/pagemod.gallery.full.asp?imgid=214)
(http://www.bergmannaudio.com/pagemod.gallery.full.asp?imgid=216)
Because, y'know, the Walker Black Diamond is out of reach for me at this point in time...
(https://walkeraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Pro61.jpg)
(https://walkeraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Pro41.jpg)
(https://walkeraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Pro81.jpg)
(https://walkeraudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Pro111.jpg)
Though the Transrotor Argos is prettier IMO.
(http://www.transrotor.de/images/stories/argo/img/Argo-Bild-1.jpg)
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Ah so many beautiful tables, so little time. Some of my favs:
(http://www.sibatech.co.jp/kondo/img/ginga.jpg)
(http://usr.audioasylum.com/images/4/42995/Micro-Seiki-RX-5000.jpg)
(http://audio7979.co.kr/data/bbsData/24&&sx-8000.jpg)
(http://www.hi-fi.ru/upload/iblock/398/3989661546e98898a391b17995a4044f.jpg)
(http://www.nutshellhifi.com/VSAC/Teres2003-2.jpg)
(http://gallery.audioasylum.com/cgi/gi.mpl?u=386&f=IMG_0153.jpg)
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The sex appeal of a Teres for what they cost is off the freaking charts.
(http://img337.imageshack.us/img337/6725/turntablesx6.jpg)
(http://www.stereomojo.com/Teres%20255%20265%20turntable%20review/images/g-58.jpg)
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Huh, I didn't know you found balls sexy, Dave.
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Huh, I didn't know you found balls sexy, Dave.
Lol yup. As impressive as the 460 is, I prefer the balls in acrylic.
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue21/images/Teres360-room7030.jpg)
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Yeah, the Kondo Ginga turntable is lovely. Waaaaaaay overpriced, but lovely none the less.
It's interesting to see how Teres, Redpoint, and Galibier tables all evolved from the same original design that was posted on a forum a while back. Each designer added his own touch.
(http://redpointturntable.com/storage/Redpoint-Model-XX-Turntable_RAD_XX_TOP_1152w.jpg)
(http://redpointturntable.com/storage/Redpoint-Model-XX-Turntable-RAD_XX_06-2_925w.jpg)
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Coming back down to earth a bit---at least compared to those high-end beauties---there's the Townshend Rock turntables. Like Well-Tempered and Nottingham, Townshend always struck me as adhering strictly to the notion of form following function.
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/thumbs/209-ER-Townshend-turntable.jpg.648x460_q85.jpg)
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/209-ER-Townshend-TT-1.jpg)
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/209-ER-Townshend-TT-2.jpg)
(http://www.townshendaudio.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/Outrigger-and-Paddle-in-position.jpg)
The latest iteration of their beloved Rock deck has a number of cool features such as "seismic load cells" (read: springs) and---most notably---a front end damping system. That's the paddle you see sticking out in front of the cartridge. Taken from their website:
The front end damping trough contains viscous silicone fluid which works in combination with a small paddle that’s clamped between the headshell and cartridge. The paddle sits in the damping fluid as the cartridge traces the record. The fluid allows the cartridge and paddle to move without resistance ...
Pretty darn neat! Honestly, I think it's going to come down to either the Well Tempered, Townshend, or Nottingham for my next table. I plan on using it for about a year or so until I can sell it and move up to something like a Dr. Feickert Firebird, Amazon Referenz, or Spiral Grooves SG2.
Came across another brand I'd never heard of: Acoustic Signature. They make some truly lovely compact turntables. They also seem to be obsessed with meteorology.
(http://www.acoustic-signature.com/images/adslider750334a08c0d536022.jpg)
(http://www.acoustic-signature.com/images/adslider750334a08c0d536023.jpg)
Above: the Thunder.
Below: the Storm.
(http://www.acoustic-signature.com/images/adslider750334a08c0da76071.jpg)
(http://www.acoustic-signature.com/images/adslider750334a08c0da76072.jpg)
Only thing is, the Storm's controls remind me a bit of a kitchen appliance.
Going back to magnetic drive, the EAR Disk Master is a very interestingly designed table. What's up with the price increases on EAR products over the years though? They've all nearly doubled in price. The Disk Master was already very expensive, but now it's like $10k more than it was a few years ago.
(http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue41/images/1disc.gif)
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Really enjoying the turntable pRon. The Bergmann has been my favorites in the looks department so far. The linear tracking arm really sets off the design for me. It keeps the lines so clean and classic but with a modern twist.
Some of the clear (acrylic?) crazy legs designs are a bit of an eyesore to me. The Townshend Rock 7 is cool looking. It reminds me of a cafe racer bike with minimalist design and the shock absorber legs. For a more modern look the Kuzmi is super awesome. I am a bit of a sucker for the brass look. Keeping it contemporary but classy.
With turntables more than anything I think the look is super important. Part of the allure to me is in the ritual of vinyl and the connection you develop with your TT. I am weird though and tend to develop feelings towards inanimate objects.
I don't even want to know what any of the above cost, but keep the pics coming!
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More pr0n:
(http://larepubliqueduson.files.wordpress.com/2013/04/thalie-22500.jpg)
(http://i290.photobucket.com/albums/ll252/Toptubes/HiEndPic/ANALOG/Turntables/PlutoAudio-12A-Special-Deluxe.jpg)
(http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2007/CES2007/report-1000/high-end-audio/the-show/part4/IMG_WIDTH_1000_IMG_7610.jpg)
(http://www.audiofederation.com/hifiing/2007/CES2007/report-1000/high-end-audio/the-show/part4/IMG_WIDTH_1000_IMG_7608.jpg)
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For some reason I just can't stand shield ("guitar pick") shaped bases and plinths. Here's a much nicer looking table made of granite IMO:
(http://www.sweetspotaudio.no/Pythagoras.jpg-for-web-large.jpg)
The Pythagoras, complete with the Thales tonearm Donald dislikes. I think that pair looks amazing though... like some kind of ancient automata sundial that also happens to play music.
Dave posted the Micro Seiki RX 5000 a while back too, which is actually a table I'm seriously considering. Most of my pr0n posts I make are showing tables I'm considering to some degree, or at least exemplifying my stream-of-consciousness thoughts about certain design decisions. With a few exceptions: the Black Diamond, the Argos, and now the Pythagoras above are definitely unobtanium for me.
Thing is, most turntable pr0n for me caps out at the $25k mark or thereabouts. Again with a few exceptions** the more expensive the table, the more hideous I tend to find it.
**Black Diamond, Rockport, Goldmund, Basis Work of Art, Final Parthenon, Kondo Ginga, Pythagoras, a few others
Speaking of the Final Audio Parthenon:
(http://www.topclassaudio.com/uploads/catalog/1422/2052i.jpg)
I can't imagine pulling that nearly 80lb platter with a cloth thread, tho. My experience with cloth and silk threads is not particularly positive.
More for the consideration pile...
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/thumbs/artemis_pic_1.jpg.648x460_q85.jpg)
Artemis Labs SA-1
(http://www.artisanfidelity.com/publishImages/Achates-Idler-Drive~~element75.jpg)
Artisan Fidelity Achates (an idler drive deck!)
I'd definitely prefer a natural wood finish, because in white it looks too much like a bathtub!
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I've had something of a breakthrough recently, and consequently I feel I've a much better idea of what I'm looking for and why.
Firstly, I'm starting to hear what the fuss is about direct and idler drive. Specifically older broadcast decks from Technics and the highly regarded Lenco motor. When these are properly modified, I'm convinced they can stand up to most current-production belt-driven tables if not better them.
The next revelation has to do with plinth material. One common material used in turntables today is acrylic, but to my ears this can sometimes result in an unnatural sound. Granted there are so many variables involved, so I'm always reaffirming that it comes down to implementation. For instance I find the Basis Debut manages to avoid sounding this way despite its acrylic construction. However better materials to my mind are harder wood composites like "panzerholz" (a bulletproof wood used in Maybach limousines), compounds like ICI, crushed marble, and most of all slate. That last one is a new one for me, but it's seriously one of the best plinth materials I've ever encountered.
Oswald's Mill creates some amazing slate plinths. They partnered with Win Tannon to create the Saskia turntable, and now they make the Anatase and Tourmaline tables using the Lenco and Technics motors respectively. These employ seriously heavy duty plinths that weigh over 200 lbs.
(http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/img/vinyl/turntable/anatase/1.jpg)
(http://oswaldsmillaudio.com/img/vinyl/turntable/tourmaline/2.jpg)
Having a substantial platter is important for me, and I particularly like the approach where it's partially sunk into the plinth.
Jean Nantais also makes some amazing reference decks using Lenco parts, as well as Garrard, Sony, and Technics. As with the OMAs, they're highly modified with both old and new parts, so they really aren't all that similar to the originals beyond their bullet proof reliability (many of these decks were used professionally, after all).
(http://www.idler-wheel-drive.com/wp-content/uploads/Classic-Lenco-MKII-Cherry-0292-800x535.jpg)
Posted an idler drive creation from Artisan Fidelity earlier on in this thread, and that too was made using Lenco parts. They make a number of other idler and direct drive models loosely based on Lenco, Technics, Garrard, etc. Their construction utilizes multiple layers of materials including panzerholz. Here are some more examples of their work.
(http://www.artisanfidelity.com/publishImages/Lenco-L75-~~element121.jpg)
(http://www.artisanfidelity.com/IMG_5548_copy_2.JPG)
So yeah... direct or idler drive, broadcast table parts, utilizing the best of past technology with more recent ideas, and having a truly massive plinth (over 100 lbs. is ideal --- really the closer to 200 lbs. the better). The end result may use vintage principles, but the sound is anything but dated. Frankly this recipe can yield astonishing results for a fraction of the cost of other high-end tables
Also increasingly curious about magnetic drive as found on the EAR Disk Master, Transrotor Rondino, Brinkmann Oasis, and Kodo The Beat. All of these examples seem to utilize a somewhat different form of"magnetic drive."
I haven't given up on belt drive entirely, though. I'm specifically wondering if better results can be achieved using more than one motor and multiple spindles. The Dr. Feickert Firebird for instance has three motors and winds the belt around the platter in a triangular shape. Funk Firm does something similar with the Saffire-III, and they call it a hybrid between direct and belt drive. The most intriguing competitor for me though is the Kuzma Stabi XL4. It uses four motors and multiple synchronized drive belts. It also features a truly massive platter made from a composite of materials, a ruby ball bearing, and a very substantial base to support it. The smaller modular tower provides a stable platform for the tonearm rather than just sticking it to the side on an armboard; it also allows you to easily adjust the distance to accommodate a plethora of tonearms. It is, in short, a monster.
(http://www.kuzma.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pictures/3.2.4.38.-stabi-xl4-white.jpg)
(http://www.kuzma.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pictures2/3.2.4.13.-stabi-xl-4-motors-and-belt-position.jpg)
Normally I dislike the clustered modular look. The Kuzma Stabi XL and the Redpoint models are definite exceptions.
Still, I always find myself going back to more classic designs. Kuzma has a relatively new creation called the Stabi M. Talk about classic looking. This thing is enormous and completely no-nonsense. It's belt driven, but the belt is short and kept under the platter which is itself substantial in typical Kuzma fashion. This is one extremely solid table.
(http://www.kuzma.si/modules/uploader/uploads/s_product/pictures/3.2.3.01.-stabi-m.jpg)
Speaking of which, SME still makes some fine record players which still look mostly unchanged despite gradual improvements over the decades. They also come is wider versions to accommodate 12" tonearms like the SME V-12. Longer tonearms have some advantages, but once again it comes to the three most important rules: implementation, implementation, and implementation. Personally I'd rather have a table where it's easy to adjust to fit different tonearms. The Dr. Feickert Firebird once again shows others how it's done. Anyway, the SME tables use a suspension system with four intricately designed pillars. Turntables that use four corner pillars connecting multiple layers like this have a very distinctive look to them. In leu of mass loading, a good suspension system seems like a good thing for lighter tables.
(http://www.sme.ltd.uk/uploads/images/Model20-3-b.jpg)
Going back a moment to minimalist designs like those from Simon Yorke, I have to say it seems like a case of moving the goalposts. The idea behind eliminating the plinth I believe is that there's less "stuff" in between vital components to potentially vibrate (a view that seems based more on the Linn Sondek LP-12 than more recent examples), and by just having a few minimal points of contact with the surface below, energy is able to dissipate more quickly. Even though the bearing is sunk into a fairly robust block of metal, I'm a little unsure about its stability. You have to have a high mass block somewhere; little wonder then that Simon Yoke also makes these massive stands for his record players. Without them, the individual pieces seem more susceptible to outside vibrations, as now there are multiple, weaker targets as opposed to a single, more fortified whole.
(http://www.recordplayer.com/images/artifact_image/image/113/aamain.jpg)
(http://www.recordplayer.com/images/artifact_image/image/89/stand_main-middledddb.jpg?1246798335)
Getting one of these huge stands would be a must for me. His record players are regarded as stripped down, yet ironically enough they end up being ever more massive and bulkier Interestingly, these decks are often used by archives and libraries to transcribe their record collections to digital formats.
Lastly, I just felt the need to mention some examples of high-end turntables that seem "over-engineered" to me. As I said in a previous post, there's something appealing about elegant, straightforward designs. There's less to go wrong. Less to get in the way. First off are the Continuum Caliburn and Criterion. Admittedly, I really like the way the "less expensive" (read: still $60k USD) Criterion looks. A lot. It has a classical shape and a sunken platter, looking very solid and substantive. Even the little viewing window with the strobe lighting is kinda cool. I could easily live with having to look at it in my listening room every day. With all the electronic speed monitoring, feedback loops, vacuum suction of records onto the platter however, it just seems overwrought.
(http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2008RMAF-II-1.jpg)
Moving on, we've got TechDAS' Air Force One (a stupid joke name they took from Forsell). It looks like an amoebic kitchen appliance from some dystopian future. Yuck, no thanks. It too uses vacuum hold-down, along with speed correction and air bearings.
(http://www.vinylengine.com/images/model/techdas_air_force_one_turntable.jpg)
They're releasing a less costly Air Force Two at some point, and it actually looks passible. Kinda reminds me of a VPI deck. Definitely prefer the Continuum Criterion however.
(http://www.telegraph.co.uk/inluxury/19798/1389010326188/technicaljpg/ALTERNATES/w940-land/technical.jpg)
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So yeah... direct or idler drive, broadcast table parts, utilizing the best of past technology with more recent ideas, and having a truly massive plinth (over 100 lbs. is ideal --- really the closer to 200 lbs. the better). The end result may use vintage principles, but the sound is anything but dated. Frankly this recipe can yield astonishing results for a fraction of the cost of other high-end tables
Ah sh_t! I just deleted a snap shot of a great Technics SP-10 Mk II I saw at a recent "swap meet" because I figured no one was into this sort of thing! It was along these lines, but in much better condition...
(http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c283/cpsjj/BBCSP101.jpg)
The thing was a beast, but of course you'd get rid of all the audio electronics anyway. I was wondering just how capable some of these old decks were/are. It does appear you can do a pretty cool build from this stuff. It's great to read some of the product information from the time, basically these things were designed to run 24/7 in the demanding broadcast environment.
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Wow!! nice turntable thread!!
I have a modified GL75 Lenco and an Oracle Delphi Mk2 (upgraded to Mk3).
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/703/dsc5749y.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/jjdsc5749yj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/42/7d9n.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/167d9nj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/198/fr7t.JPG) (https://imageshack.com/i/5ifr7tJ)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/20/dsc5166m.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/0kdsc5166mj)
Phono stages 1) Musical FIdelity M1vinl, 2) ASR Basis, 3) New Valve Order SPA ONE.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/5/1cpe.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/051cpej)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/845/xbry.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/nhxbryj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/706/bhb4.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/jmbhb4j)
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@ Ship: That looks really cool! BTW, how's your JA Hydraulic deck doing?
@ Chris: Those are some truly beautiful things!
Did you make the Lenco's plinth yourself? What material is it made from?
Also that's a nice linear tracker. Looks kinda like an Airtangent.
The Oracle Delphi is one of my all time favorite suspended designs. It has certainly undergone a lot of revisions over the years, but thankfully they haven't messed with its look much. They pretty much nailed that and created something truly compelling that has only gotten better with age.
A few thoughts to share.
I'm intrigued by the use of fluid in turntable design. Suspension systems have many unique advantages compared to fixed plinths. And disadvantages. While they "roll with the punches" so to speak, the issue of radiating torsion is always going to be present to some degree with a spinning platter. Basically the construction around the platter is going to minutely wobble. The example given by Junji Kimura gives me a good mental image: imagine placing a spinning turntable on a boat, and the boat eventually rotating in the water along with it while ripples form in the surrounding water. The newest iteration of the Delphi tries to counter this by employing a series of fluid filled cups and plungers by the suspension posts to act as shock absorbers. Also the legendary Townshend Rock deck uses a trough filled with fluid in which the tonearm's head shell sits to act as a dampener. These methods seem to work very well, so fluid dampeners are definitely something to look into in my opinion.
* * * * * *
Secondly, I'm a bit perplexed as to why the new Hartvig Signature TT (http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/hartvig_signature_tt.htm) costs nearly $30k USD.
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/equipment/pics/hartvig_tt_front_large.jpg)
I mean, it certainly looks nice and has a cool minimalist design that might 'cover up' some of its more technical points. I dig the massive platter. It's imported. But come on...
* * * * * *
Thirdly, I had a rather... interesting... exchange with Simon Yorke. Long story short, he's no longer selling turntables because he feels the world's currency is too unstable (though he might entertain trading one for precious metals?). Okay then. I never would have guessed since this news isn't going around, plus just this year---in January---he came out with a limited edition player that only plays 45s.
* * * * * *
Fourthly, Kronos has a new "lower cost" turntable in the works called the Sparta. It's based off of their larger Kronos turntable and uses their signature counter-rotating second platter to help cancel out the torsion effect I mentioned above.
(http://www.kronosaudio.com/images/Sparta/Kronos%20Sparta%20HR.jpg)
They claim to be exclusively using this tech, but 47 Labs has their Koma turntable which has been out for a while as well. Anyway, I thought the bigger Kronos sounded really good. Very good in fact. Still, there are a few reservations for me. The biggest of which is the price for what is, essentially, a single belt design. Also the new table is shorter and so 12" tonearms can't be used. Granted, I'd probably buy the Sparta with their new 9" Black Beauty tonearm, but still I'd like the option for a longer one. It's the principle of the thing. Also for this kind of money I think it's a bit unfortunately it can't support two tonearms. Oh, and no sensors to monitor the speed.
The price is something like $7k less than the bigger Kronos. Now, if you're already going to be spending $20k on a turntable---plus more for a tonearm and cartridge---spending the extra $7k for the bigger and more sophisticated table seems a bit obvious. Really they should have priced the Sparta at around $12k-15k in my opinion.
Still, the Sparta is a nice beast and hard to get out of one's mind.
Fifthly, magnetic suspension drive may be the best way to implement belts. The EAR Disk Master uses a really grippy (but noisy) belt to drive a bottom platter, and the top platter is suspended via magnets so there's no direct contact with the belt. The Clearaudio Master Innovation and some of the Transrotors do this too.
(http://www.needledoctor.com/Clearaudio-Master-Innovation-Wood-Turntable-Zoom.jpg)
Shown above is the Clearaudio. Hopefully I'll get a chance to audition it and the Disk Master and hear the magnetic suspension system in action.
Sixthly, and speaking of auditions, I got to hear the Grand Prix Monaco.
(http://www.grandprixaudio.com/images/gp1-home.jpg)
It was set up along with the matching shelving unit. WOW. It looks really gorgeous in person on its matching base. As for the sound, it helped solidify my fondness for direct drive over belts. The sense of pace and rhythm is just superior to my ears. The reason for this is likely due to stylus drag. In short: more complex passages have more information in the grooves and the stylus can actually physically slow down when it hits these segments if the drive isn't good enough. Direct and idler drive (and possible rim drive) overcome this better than belts to my ears.
The Monaco is one of those products that challenges my assumptions. I'm usually a high mass, more traditional style plinth proponent, but the Monaco is just this sleek carbon fibre supercar of a turntable.
Oh, and the bit about it "sounding thin" from Fremer or whatever isn't a real issue to my ears.
The Monaco is definitely at the top of my list for high-end turntables I'd consider living with day to day.
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@ Chris: Those are some truly beautiful things!
Did you make the Lenco's plinth yourself? What material is it made from?
Also that's a nice linear tracker. Looks kinda like an Airtangent.
The Oracle Delphi is one of my all time favorite suspended designs. It has certainly undergone a lot of revisions over the years, but thankfully they haven't messed with its look much. They pretty much nailed that and created something truly compelling that has only gotten better with age.
Hi MuppetFace! Thank you very much!
I am astounded by the nice pictures and the commentary in this thread, well done everyone!!
I love vinyl reproduction, because of the really natural way it sounds.
I have made the plinth and the modifications on the Lenco GL75 myself. It consists of alternating layers of marine ply and mdf. The top plate was cut and sunk in the plinth. Arm-boards and adjustable legs are custom made from aluminium.
Tonearms in the pictures (on the Lenco) Advanced Analog Mg1 Air Bearing Linear Tracking Tonearm with
ultra P wand, Linn Ekos Mk1, and (on the Oracle) Rega RB900, static balanced, Van Den Hul Silver rewire, and low center of gravity counterweight.
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They claim to be exclusively using this tech, but 47 Labs has their Koma turntable which has been out for a while as well. Anyway, I thought the bigger Kronos sounded really good. Very good in fact. Still, there are a few reservations for me. The biggest of which is the price for what is, essentially, a single belt design. Also the new table is shorter and so 12" tonearms can't be used. Granted, I'd probably buy the Sparta with their new 9" Black Beauty tonearm, but still I'd like the option for a longer one. It's the principle of the thing. Also for this kind of money I think it's a bit unfortunately it can't support two tonearms. Oh, and no sensors to monitor the speed.
The price is something like $7k less than the bigger Kronos. Now, if you're already going to be spending $20k on a turntable---plus more for a tonearm and cartridge---spending the extra $7k for the bigger and more sophisticated table seems a bit obvious. Really they should have priced the Sparta at around $12k-15k in my opinion.
That's unfortunate. For that kind of cash I would expect to be able to use 12" arms which I prefer to 10s or 9s. Also, does that mean you might need to throw in a Walker PMC on top?
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I have made the plinth and the modifications on the Lenco GL75 myself. It consists of alternating layers of marine ply and mdf. The top plate was cut and sunk in the plinth. Arm-boards and adjustable legs are custom made from aluminium.
Tonearms in the pictures (on the Lenco) Advanced Analog Mg1 Air Bearing Linear Tracking Tonearm with
ultra P wand, Linn Ekos Mk1, and (on the Oracle) Rega RB900, static balanced, Van Den Hul Silver rewire, and low center of gravity counterweight.
Wow, I bet that Lenco sounds great. A modified Lenco has one of the best price to performance ratios in my opinion.
That's unfortunate. For that kind of cash I would expect to be able to use 12" arms which I prefer to 10s or 9s. Also, does that mean you might need to throw in a Walker PMC on top?
Yeah, it's disappointing. I prefer 12" tonearms as well.
I still expect it'll sound exceptional with the new 10" edition of the Black Beauty, and I like it when designers engineer the turntable and tonearm together as a whole, but for that kind of dosh there should be more flexibility. I can't help but feel like they could have extended the armboard somehow in the design to allow for longer sizes while keeping the overall shorter length of the table. The more cynical part of me suspects they might have gimped it just to keep the flagship Kronos more attractive. Honestly, who wouldn't spend the extra $7k or so for the bigger model at that level? It would have made so much more sense in my mind to price the Sparta at around $15k instead of $22k.
As for needing a PMC, I'm not sure if the Sparta has no motor feedback or if it just lacks the more sophisticated version in the Kronos with optical sensors. I suspect it might use a somewhat simpler implementation w/o the optical sensors.
Speaking of 12" tonearms, I came across this amazing combo of the Monaco with Tri Planar's 12" arm with what appears to be a special carbon fibre arm tube:
(http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb255/coopie_photo/P3034250_zpsc3ac3af2.jpg)
It's sitting on top of Grand Prix's Formula base. Normally I'm not a big fan of carbon fiber, so it's kind of odd I'd totally melt for what amounts to a entire setup bedecked in it, but that's exactly what's happened. What a svelte looking combo.
Though honestly, I'd probably go with a 12" Black Beauty (which sounds quite lewd now that I type it out...).
(http://www.theaudiobeat.com/rmaf2013/101213pics/kronos_tonearm_1.jpg)
...or even a DaVinciAudio Labs Master Reference Virtu, also 12" but without the continuity of carbon fibre.
(http://www.astrasuite.com/images/da-vinci-audio/da-vinci-virtu-tonearm-111124-1-1000x664.jpg)
* * * * * * *
Linear trackers still intrigue me. The Bergmann Sindre is a truly exquisite setup, but now Bergmann is selling the version found on the "entry-level" Magne as a standalone.
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/Bergmann%20Magne%20standalone%20tonearm.jpg)
Its simplicity is very appealing, though if I went that route I'd want to get the matching Bergmann table since it uses the same airbearing ethos for the platter. There's also a new "entry level" linear tracker from Clearaudio, the TT-3, which retails for under $4k USD.
(http://media.tas.zeitpress.com/articles/images/Clearaudio%20TT-3%20closeup.jpg)
Since I'm a firm believer in synergy, I'd be very tempted to combine it with the Clearaudio Innovation. The TT-3 and Innovation Compact seems like a potentially great setup for under $15k. Which is still a metric f-ton of cash, but not too bad for a complete linear tracking setup with top quality craftsmanship.
(http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/2010CES-snapII-clearaudio1.jpg)
* * * * * * *
Something occurred to me the other day. It seems obvious enough, but serviceability and support is an important factor to consider. A lot of these smaller companies for instance have already retired models that came out only a few years ago (and don't even update this on their webpage, which they leave outdated). There's something to be said for a more established brand. That being said, some established brands are pretty crappy WRT customer service, and I was really impressed by how accessible some of these 'smaller guys' were. Merrill-Williams, Dr. Feickert, Kronos, Spiral Grooves, Basis, Oswald's Mill Audio, and Grand Prix all respond promptly.
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Just wanted to take a moment to plug what is in my opinion one of the best turntables you can buy for under $10k.
http://www.realturntable.com/
(http://www.realturntable.com/images/stories/real101.jpg)
No, it's not pretty. However George Merrill is one of the true luminaries in turntable design. Previously he designed the Merrill Heirloom, a brilliant deck that he continued to refine over the years until it reached its ultimate form in the $25k Merrill-Scillia which has been described by many as one of the best turntables of all time.
For his latest endeavor, George went back to the drawing board so to speak and designed a new deck by scratch. It uses a specially developed rubber laminate compound in the plinth as well as chambers and dampener feet to render it inert. There's a stope included to constantly monitor the table's speed as well. He says this table is, in many ways, better than the Merrill-Scillia.
Now it's getting upgraded to version 101.2. Changes include an all-black aesthetic due to a different material used in the top and bottom plates, as well as support for a wider array of tonearms.
Really looking forward to trying the updated version.
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So...
(http://www.rega.co.uk/product_images/RP10-WITH-PLATTER.gif)
(http://www.rega.co.uk/product_images/RP10-NO-PLATTER-TOP-DOWN-VIEW.gif)
Listened to the Rega RP10 with their new ceramic platter and new RB2000 tonearm equipped with an Apheta cartridge. I was pretty damn impressed by what I heard. In fact, if I had $7k to spend on an entire turntable package (deck, tonearm, and cart) this would definitely be at the top of my list along with the Well Tempered Labs Amadeus GTA and a cart like the Shelter 901 or Miyajima Shilabe.
I've always been fond of higher end Rega decks however, having had a P7 that I traded up for a P9. They're extremely low hassle, easy to use and maintain. Which is something you shouldn't underestimate --- so many people don't even have their expensive turntables dialed in correctly! Owned a Rega comes with piece of mind, as you never have to worry about a lack of support or the availability of parts. And honestly, when it comes to single belt drive, I think Rega are on to something with their low mass approach.
* * * * * * * * * * *
In other news, I'm really interested in VPI's new Direct Drive Classic. I'm not surprised this model is their new top-of-the-line offering, given my experience with direct drive in the past. Also they have a new 3D printed tonearm that looks neat.
(http://www.vpiindustries.com/images/classicdirect/Classic-direct-M.jpg)
In addition, VPI offer a rim drive upgrade to their HR-X model that was already pretty great in my opinion. Would be really interesting to compare the rim drive HR-X with the Direct Drive Classic.
(https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash3/v/t1.0-9/547831_10150660866190918_886793547_n.jpg?oh=d059ec46f87c65ea7d3b093bef936967&oe=53BAD2A7)
Speaking of rim drive, Origin Live!'s new flagship models---Venturer and Voyager---use this method to spin their platters. Can't wait to try either. They're both supposed to be the same, just different aesthetic options.
(http://www.originlive.com/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/u/turntable-venturer-angle-2.jpg)
(http://www.originlive.com/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/u/turntable-venturer-angle.jpg)
(http://www.originlive.com/magento/media/catalog/product/cache/3/image/800x600/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/t/u/turntable-voyager-front.jpg)
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Listened to the Rega RP10 with their new ceramic platter and new RB2000 tonearm equipped with an Apheta cartridge. I was pretty damn impressed by what I heard. In fact, if I had $7k to spend on an entire turntable package (deck, tonearm, and cart) this would definitely be at the top of my list along with the Well Tempered Labs Amadeus GTA and a cart like the Shelter 901 or Miyajima Shilabe.
I've always been fond of higher end Rega decks however, having had a P7 that I traded up for a P9. They're extremely low hassle, easy to use and maintain. Which is something you shouldn't underestimate --- so many people don't even have their expensive turntables dialed in correctly! Owned a Rega comes with piece of mind, as you never have to worry about a lack of support or the availability of parts. And honestly, when it comes to single belt drive, I think Rega are on to something with their low mass approach.
Speaking of rim drive, Origin Live!'s new flagship models---Venturer and Voyager---use this method to spin their platters. Can't wait to try either. They're both supposed to be the same, just different aesthetic options.
I know you like Regas, but I'm still surprised you've found the all Rega/Apheta combo to be up there with some of the best from the other guys. Or... did you just like it for what it costs? I understand the value quotient with with the lower end Rega tables and Rega arms, no question. However, just as with their electronics, IMO the further up the line you go, the less value you get. IMO the performance simply doesn't keep up with the price. The little Brio-R and DAC aren't too bad, if somewhat overly energetic and forward in that Rega way. More you spend though, the more the competition starts to really hammer Rega, until you get to the Osiris which is stupid expensive and killed by just about everyone else out there who knows what they are doing.
The carts just don't work for me at all, Apheta included. It's not necessarily horrible, but again there's that Rega house sound that's getting in the way, an overly energetic forwardness and even some grain in the upper mid/lower treble region. At least on its own its $1800, and for another $200 you can get a Dynavector XX-2. I know which way I would go. In fact, that's probably where I would've gone had I not been able to get my Shelter 7000 for 50% off.
Please let me know if you get a chance to hear the new O-L tables, I'm really curious about them. I think my Ace Space has the Resolution MK3 beat, but the Venture and Voyager are in a totally different league from even the Sovereign. I assume they are intended to be paired with the Enterprise arm, which is a good one.
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I know you like Regas, but I'm still surprised you've found the all Rega/Apheta combo to be up there with some of the best from the other guys. Or... did you just like it for what it costs? I understand the value quotient with with the lower end Rega tables and Rega arms, no question. However, just as with their electronics, IMO the further up the line you go, the less value you get.
Good, I like being surprising from time to time.
The P9 was a jewel of a turntable in my opinion. The RP8 was more a lateral move, but their new RP10 is unquestionably a step up for me and really the best Rega I've heard. Granted, I've experienced the typical criticisms of overly forward sound that lacks body, yes, but that was mainly on systems that were not synergistically favorable to them. The Apheta really needs 50 ohms to sound ideal, and loading it with higher ratings will typically result in that kind of stereotypical "bad Rega sound." Their IOS phono stage is another good product for the money in my opinion, and while it pairs well with a variety of different carts, it has a special setting just for the Apheta.
Really, you'd be surprised just how many people don't have their high end gear dialed in correctly, and I've heard stuff twice as expensive as the RP10 sound twice as bad just because it keeps going out of spec all the time. I find there's a definite appeal to Rega's ease of ownership. Which brings me back to the statement I made: if I had $7k to spend on a vinyl package right now, I'd seriously consider the RP10 + RB2000 + Apheta at the top of my list. Yes, that's given the budget of $7, though I'd still consider it even if I were spending more (just not as strongly the higher up I go; I'm being practical, not delusional).
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Fair enough. Given the same budget, my money would be on the Ace Space 294 combo with either the aforementioned XX-2 or a ZYX R-100, or a discounted Koetsu. A little bit more will get you a Kansui, which is a pretty significant jump up and pretty damn tough to beat short of a Benz S-class, which in turn is almost unbeatable period.
My experience with the Apheta both through transformers and what appeared to be competently configured pres was always less than inspiring.
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New SME Model 10:
(http://www.analogplanet.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/514SME10.JPG)
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/smes-new-model-10%E2%80%94worldwide-exclusive-first-look
Also there's a Rockport Sirius on Audiogon for 13k - http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-rockport-sirius-ii-turntable-2014-07-02-analog-portugal
Though it looks like it needs some work.
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Just want to give a shout out to the Kuzma Stabi SD. It's an incredible turntable. In some ways, I even found it preferable to the Stabi Ref. 2 which costs significantly more and is better than many similar priced turntables IMO. What makes the Stabi SD particularly great is that is can support two 12" tonearms.
That's one thing I really dislike about SME. To even get ONE 12" tonearm on their turntables, you have to pay out the ass.
Having the ability to listen on two different cartridges (especially one mono) is flexibility I will never again forsake.
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Just want to give a shout out to the Kuzma Stabi SD. It's an incredible turntable. In some ways, I even found it preferable to the Stabi Ref. 2 which costs significantly more and is better than many similar priced turntables IMO. What makes the Stabi SD particularly great is that is can support two 12" tonearms.
That's one thing I really dislike about SME. To even get ONE 12" tonearm on their turntables, you have to pay out the ass.
Having the ability to listen on two different cartridges (especially one mono) is flexibility I will never again forsake.
Cool. What are you using to support it? From what I know of the Stabi S at least, you can't even breathe on it unless you've got something VERY solid underneath.
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Not surprising. The Stabi S is basically a series of solid tubes, so like any turntable without a heavy or carefully layered plinth that eschews spring / fluid suspension, it benefits greatly from a solid platform under it.
I don't have one set up here yet.
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Good, I like being surprising from time to time.
The P9 was a jewel of a turntable in my opinion. The RP8 was more a lateral move, but their new RP10 is unquestionably a step up for me and really the best Rega I've heard. Granted, I've experienced the typical criticisms of overly forward sound that lacks body, yes, but that was mainly on systems that were not synergistically favorable to them. The Apheta really needs 50 ohms to sound ideal, and loading it with higher ratings will typically result in that kind of stereotypical "bad Rega sound." Their IOS phono stage is another good product for the money in my opinion, and while it pairs well with a variety of different carts, it has a special setting just for the Apheta.
Really, you'd be surprised just how many people don't have their high end gear dialed in correctly, and I've heard stuff twice as expensive as the RP10 sound twice as bad just because it keeps going out of spec all the time. I find there's a definite appeal to Rega's ease of ownership. Which brings me back to the statement I made: if I had $7k to spend on a vinyl package right now, I'd seriously consider the RP10 + RB2000 + Apheta at the top of my list. Yes, that's given the budget of $7, though I'd still consider it even if I were spending more (just not as strongly the higher up I go; I'm being practical, not delusional).
big bump from the past but I'm happy to hear positive impressions of the RP10. I've never heard one but its up there on my list of dream tables. When it comes to turntables I put a lot of value on simplicity of setup and use. Really hard to beat the Rega 3 pt cartridge alignment in that area.
but for the time being the 1200 and P3/24 are plenty of turntables for me.
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When it comes to turntables I put a lot of value on simplicity of setup and use. Really hard to beat the Rega 3 pt cartridge alignment in that area.
Simplicity is good, but I would say "VTA, what is dis??" is not good. Not when you are trying to sell me a $2200 tonearm. Reminds me of VPI's "anti-skate is for dummies" attitude. Turns out they were the dummies.
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Simplicity is good, but I would say "VTA, what is dis??" is not good. Not when you are trying to sell me a $2200 tonearm. Reminds me of VPI's "anti-skate is for dummies" attitude. Turns out they were the dummies.
Truth, but if you use a rega cart its a moot point. But a lot of people don't like rega carts.
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big bump from the past but I'm happy to hear positive impressions of the RP10. I've never heard one but its up there on my list of dream tables. When it comes to turntables I put a lot of value on simplicity of setup and use. Really hard to beat the Rega 3 pt cartridge alignment in that area.
but for the time being the 1200 and P3/24 are plenty of turntables for me.
Simplicity in the drive (on/off, perfect speed accuracy) is a very good thing to want, but as for the tonearm you need to have the ability to adjust many factors.
And remember that price =/= performance.
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hey guys I need some advice (talking out of)
I have a chance to get a rega planner 3 with a rb300 (cardas recable) + shure v15mr + jisco needle + 24v motor+ glass platter +wool mat for $700 USD. This would be my FIRST turntable and to be honest it would wipe my budget and I don't have any phono preamp or amp(besides my portable piccolo amp) or speakers (planing on getting some airmotiv 4s when the budget allows). How bad of an idea is this? my plans where to get the rp1 later when budget allowed.
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The wiping the budget thing is what I'd be worried about. Vinyl, even used, hasn't gotten any cheaper! Also worth looking into getting a cheaper stylus for your cartridge if you go into the used route.
You will likely also need record a cleaning system of some sort to further protect your investment.
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The wiping the budget thing is what I'd be worried about. Vinyl, even used, hasn't gotten any cheaper! Also worth looking into getting a cheaper stylus for your cartridge if you go into the used route.
You will likely also need record a cleaning system of some sort to further protect your investment.
so you think its not worth it?
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I may just be jaded but let's just say I went in thinking I would do vinyl on a budget and so far I have failed on many levels. WRT the value of the Rega it sounds like a great setup but what I am getting at is that the table really is not the last thing you'll be spending $$$ on.
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I have a chance to get a rega planner 3 with a rb300 (cardas recable) + shure v15mr + jisco needle + 24v motor+ glass platter +wool mat for $700 USD. This would be my FIRST turntable and to be honest it would wipe my budget and I don't have any phono preamp or amp(besides my portable piccolo amp) or speakers (planing on getting some airmotiv 4s when the budget allows). How bad of an idea is this? my plans where to get the rp1 later when budget allowed.
That sounds like an 'effin amazing deal to me. Whether you want to dive into vinyl is a different consideration. It's not a cheap hobby. But if you're going to do it sooner or later I can't think of a much better value than what you listed. Maybe a used SL1200, not sure these days what they go for.
Shure V15 is quite legendary as a cartridge. Don't know about replacement stylii though. I don't think you'll be able to find a RP3 for any cheaper than that.
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@ OJneg and Mr. Sneis
Thanks for the advice I think I'll pay my bills and rent then see how I feeL about it.
Honestly I've tried to avoid getting a turntable like cancer but it seems every new album that comes out is only listenable on vinyl. Its funny I am hunting for used cds of older albums but am only considering the vinyls of the most recent release. Someone offered me a stadium arcadium vinyl for 13 bucks but I had ripped my friends cd and thought I was good (dumbest idea ever) as soon as I got decent headphones I stop listening to the cd it was too dull.
Plus I think if keep asking my friend for rips he'll eventually stop responding to me completely.
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Has anyone tried out the Pioneer PLX-1000?
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Rega is a good place to start for beginners, as the turntables can easily run themselves with some simple adjustments, though I would seriously consider this:
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
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Rega is a good place to start for beginners, as the turntables can easily run themselves with some simple adjustments, though I would seriously consider this:
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
Hello! I am beginner in the world of turntables. Listen to music by headphones, to start following your tip and put together a combo would be: Orbit Turntable (Basic or Plus) + ART DJPRE II Phono Pre-amp and these connected to my amplifier?
Thanks!
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Has anyone tried out the Pioneer PLX-1000?
The plx-1000 is a rebadged hanpin super oem. Essentially the same thing as the Stantons, Numarks, Audio Technica turntables of recent years just with a different enclosure. They are OK (not junk like crosley) but if you want something DJish you are better off with a gently used 1200 IMO. As already mentioned uturn also great entry level. If you are willing to spend a bit more money (~$1000) try finding a used VPI Traveller v2. (the v1 versions have a potential tonearm issue)
For cartridge the Ortofon 2M series (red, blue, bronze, black) a great place to start. The 2M red in particular is exceptional at it's price point of $99.
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Analog Rig (1)
VPI TNT 6 Hot Rod (VPI HRX Motor with Rim Drive) -> ARM 1 (Dynavector XV-1S), ARM 2 (Van Den Hul Grasshopper III GLA), ARM 3 (Nagaoka MP-110) -> Jorma Unity RCA Cable -> EAR 324 Phono Stage
Analog Rig (2)
Scheu Premier III -> Schroeder Model 2 Tonearm -> Jan Allaerts Cartridge -> Jadis DPMC OR Zesto Andros 1.2 OR Eddie Current Transcription OR Einstein Turntables Choice OR Ray Samuels Nighthawk WITH or Without Bobs Devices Sky Step Up
Analog Rig (3)
Micro Seiki BL-21 -> Graham Robin -> Audio Technica OC9 MKII
Analog Rig (4)
Sony PS-X700 Biotracer -> 9 different MM cartridges loaded up in SME style headshells -> EAR 324 MM Section.
CLEANERS: Audio Desk Ultrasonic Cleaner, VPI 16.5 RCM
==========I got bit by the analog bug! :)p8
(https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7570/15717546527_027d1fea1a_b.jpg)
(https://farm9.staticflickr.com/8614/15874818936_4011bc64c7_b.jpg)
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7276/13335998715_f488f8f869_b.jpg)
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2905/14500201078_7e67580f82_b.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3860/14487924077_611987178c_b.jpg)
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Sweet setup! How do you like the audio desk? I really want an ultrasonic machine (have VPI 16.5) but the price is a major barrier to entry.
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Thanks! Hey, I also have a VPI 16.5. It was my first machine and it is a workhorse! Always up to the task...though too many disc cleaning sessions and the motor starts getting hot. In fact, the spindle gets pretty hot as well.
The Audio Desk is a godsend. First, every disc I ever cleaned with the VPI, sounds even better after going through the Ultra Desk.
Second, I actually can have the Audio desk running in the room WHILE I am listening to music. Third, I don't have to baby sit the cleaning. I pop in the record and away it goes. I come back to a cleaned, dried, ready to play record...the convenience is just too good. Fourth, I've never had this many clean, ready to play records as I did once I got this machine. I've cleaned more records with the Audio Desk in one month than I've cleaned with the VPI 16.5 in 4 years!
I like it a lot. A very good friend of mine who lives close by owns the KLAUDIO cleaner. Much MUCH better build quality, though it emits this crazy ultrasonic sound...you can't be in the same room with that thing while it's cleaning! Also, it doesn't have counter rotating brushes to physically agitate and clean the record. It works amazingly well still.
There is this V8 cleaner out there that uses ultrasonic cleaning AND you can clean 8 records at the same time. Though, you have to air dry them after a cleaning session on a dish rack or something. Worth looking into. I also know that VPI will be coming out with their version of the ultrasonic cleaner soon...so hang around. Prices are going to come down and options are going to go up.
Ultrasonic cleaning is DEFINITELY the way to go...records just never sounded this good and quiet! EVERYTHING on the record comes through beautifully. It doesn't fix any scratches on the records obviously, but there is no dirt or grime to get in the way.
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Oh I'm not a beginner, I was just curious if the pioneer was any good. If I ever pay 1000 for a turntable it would absolutely be a VPI
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Wow, how cool is this...a turntable forum at a headphones forum! :)p7
Here's my rigs...
Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V arm, Koetsu Urushi Vermiliion pickup
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/GyroSE-6.jpg)
(Grado Reference Sonata installed at the time photo was taken)
Setting up the Koetsu for Stevenson geometry (favored by the SME).
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Uni-12.jpg)
bang on the money...
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Uni-14.jpg)
The Urushi doin' it's thang
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Urushi%205.jpg)
My Rega P5 with Rega arm (note the patented "Stalking Leopard" anti-resonance device)
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Rega%20P5-8.jpg)
Love listening to vinyl...
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Analog Rig (1)
VPI TNT 6 Hot Rod (VPI HRX Motor with Rim Drive) -> ARM 1 (Dynavector XV-1S), ARM 2 (Van Den Hul Grasshopper III GLA), ARM 3 (Nagaoka MP-110) -> Jorma Unity RCA Cable -> EAR 324 Phono Stage
Analog Rig (2)
Scheu Premier III -> Schroeder Model 2 Tonearm -> Jan Allaerts Cartridge -> Jadis DPMC OR Zesto Andros 1.2 OR Eddie Current Transcription OR Einstein Turntables Choice OR Ray Samuels Nighthawk WITH or Without Bobs Devices Sky Step Up
Analog Rig (3)
Micro Seiki BL-21 -> Graham Robin -> Audio Technica OC9 MKII
Analog Rig (4)
Sony PS-X700 Biotracer -> 9 different MM cartridges loaded up in SME style headshells -> EAR 324 MM Section.
CLEANERS: Audio Desk Ultrasonic Cleaner, VPI 16.5 RCM
==========I got bit by the analog bug! :)p8
Yeah, me too!
Nice setups!
BTW, I have an EAR 324 phono stage and Bob's Devices SUT, also. Both are wonderful products.
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Hey Puma,
We bumped into each other on the Hoffman forum ;) Welcome!
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Hey Puma,
We bumped into each other on the Hoffman forum ;) Welcome!
Thanks, Shaizada!
I don't hang out at the Hoffman forum anymore...got tired of all the trolling and bickering. Some of that going on at HF as well, but nowhere as badly as Hoffman.
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I know what you mean :)
I just go there to learn and see what the opinions are on best pressings of the music I love. The site is an excellent resource for that...stay away from the political scene and stick to the purpose. It can get brutal over there really quick...so my participation is on a minimal level, I got too many other things to tend to. But I always make time to learn.
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My vinyl rig..
(http://i.imgur.com/EmCp1wV.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/o6SyBEX.jpg)
(http://i.imgur.com/dFYsy5r.jpg)
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Nice Rega!
Nice Benz!
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My vinyl rig..
Denali, did you put an aftermarket sub platter on your Rega?
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ahhh feels good to be back on the death star.....uurrrrr changstar
Rega is a good place to start for beginners, as the turntables can easily run themselves with some simple adjustments, though I would seriously consider this:
http://store.uturnaudio.com/
I was thinking the same thing then I read this: http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/
TL;DR its wow factor sucks and when the motor heats up it slows down (I saw a youtube review that said the same thing, the reviewer had to personally go to the manufacture for them to identify the problem and I don't live in the midwest.)
right now I am leaning towards the project debut carbon since it was a better cartrige out of the box (ortofon red) and better wow than the rega rp1. If anyone has any experience with both the rega and the project please do share. The model I'm looking at is the project carbon DC but for like $50 bucks more I can find a use technics so I'm debating what to do.
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right now I am leaning towards the project debut carbon since it was a better cartrige out of the box (ortofon red) and better wow than the rega rp1. If anyone has any experience with both the rega and the project please do share. The model I'm looking at is the project carbon DC but for like $50 bucks more I can find a use technics so I'm debating what to do.
Technics SL-1200 I assume? You'll find differing opinions on whether a stock SL-1200 is better or worse than the $~500 level belt drive tables, but I will say that there are a number of things you can do with the 1200 to considerably improve its performance if you want to upgrade in the future. The Debut arm doesn't have VTA adjustment, so your path is pretty limited, you could maybe swap in a 2M Blue if you want, but that's about it. The 2M Red is also not as great as its made out to be in the audio mags. The better Shure carts can definitely beat the Ortofon.
With a 1200 on the other hand you could do the bearing upgrade, swap in any number of 3rd party arm boards, and go pretty high-end with it if you want. That still won't make it as good as something like a PL-7L, but that upgrade route may appeal to you more than selling the Debut and starting over when the upgrade bug bites.
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Bat Shit Crazy or not, karma points! and welcome back! :)p1
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Bat Shit Crazy or not, karma points! and welcome back! :)p1
LOL, thanks Ultra
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Technics SL-1200 I assume? You'll find differing opinions on whether a stock SL-1200 is better or worse than the $~500 level belt drive tables, but I will say that there are a number of things you can do with the 1200 to considerably improve its performance if you want to upgrade in the future. The Debut arm doesn't have VTA adjustment, so your path is pretty limited, you could maybe swap in a 2M Blue if you want, but that's about it. The 2M Red is also not as great as its made out to be in the audio mags. The better Shure carts can definitely beat the Ortofon.
With a 1200 on the other hand you could do the bearing upgrade, swap in any number of 3rd party arm boards, and go pretty high-end with it if you want. That still won't make it as good as something like a PL-7L, but that upgrade route may appeal to you more than selling the Debut and starting over when the upgrade bug bites.
damn that is something to think about, the technics I'm looking is a show floor model (the mkII model to be specific) do you think its to much for a first turntable?
edit- by that I mean to much of a hassel to mess with, as I probably wont upgrade for a while. the most I was thinking of doing with the carbon was adding a shure m97xe then a jisco stylus to get my feet wet.
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Is it a pretty significant difference with a standalone phono pre- versus say what would be in my Pioneer SX 1280 or 780?
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edit- by that I mean to much of a hassel to mess with, as I probably wont upgrade for a while. the most I was thinking of doing with the carbon was adding a shure m97xe then a jisco stylus to get my feet wet.
No I don't think so. Provided this particular example has been properly cared for, it's durable as hell and a half decent performer in stock form. There is also a much bigger support community for the SL-1200 than any of the more exotic vintage direct drives.
The 1200's biggest weakness as stock is the arm. If you don't want to pay to do a Rega arm swap, you can re-wire the stock arm to significantly improve performance. Here's a pretty good guide on how its done. If this sort of table surgery scares you, there are folks that will do the work on it.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-to-rewire-a-technics-sl-1200-tonearm.148792/
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ahhh feels good to be back on the death star.....uurrrrr changstar
I was thinking the same thing then I read this: http://thewirecutter.com/reviews/best-turntable/
TL;DR its wow factor sucks and when the motor heats up it slows down (I saw a youtube review that said the same thing, the reviewer had to personally go to the manufacture for them to identify the problem and I don't live in the midwest.)
right now I am leaning towards the project debut carbon since it was a better cartrige out of the box (ortofon red) and better wow than the rega rp1. If anyone has any experience with both the rega and the project please do share. The model I'm looking at is the project carbon DC but for like $50 bucks more I can find a use technics so I'm debating what to do.
You might want to check that the Project Carbon's tonearm is adjustable for azimuth (that is, the headshell is slotted so you can twist the cartridge to get proper alignment). Some Pro-Ject tonearms just have two holes for mounting the cartridge, no slots.
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No I don't think so. Provided this particular example has been properly cared for, it's durable as hell and a half decent performer in stock form. There is also a much bigger support community for the SL-1200 than any of the more exotic vintage direct drives.
The 1200's biggest weakness as stock is the arm. If you don't want to pay to do a Rega arm swap, you can re-wire the stock arm to significantly improve performance. Here's a pretty good guide on how its done. If this sort of table surgery scares you, there are folks that will do the work on it.
http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/how-to-rewire-a-technics-sl-1200-tonearm.148792/
I'm going to try something weird like this soon. I'll make a thread.
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KAB USA has a bunch of upgrade/mod options for the 1200, including rewires and fluid damping systems for the tonearm. https://www.kabusa.com/frameset.htm?/m1200.htm
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well now I really want a technics!!
@OJneg I found a video if you want to check it out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DQK1FnHv9mo
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You can download some 24/96 samples of "entry" level hifi tables here:
http://www.audio.de/vergleichstest/plattenspieler-test-hoerprobe-musikbeispiel-download-2160464.html
They all have different cartridges (as supplied with the table) so it isn't apples to apples IMO you still get a good idea of what to expect.
The tables are:
Dual CS 505-4 with Ortofon OMB 10
Pro-Ject Xpression Carbon with Ortofon 2M silver
Rega RP 40 with Elys 40
Thorens TD 206 with Denon DL 103R
You can also get the same musical samples (in 24/48) played from 12 different cartridges from all levels of the price spectrum on a nice setup here:
http://www.audio.de/ratgeber/tonabnehmer-vergleich-test-plattenspieler-musikbeispiele-download-2072844.html
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Denali, did you put an aftermarket sub platter on your Rega?
Sure did. Groovetracer Reference.
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About this time next year I'll be in the market for a new turntable. Currently I have a vintage Kenwood KD500/550 'the rock' with a Shure v15 III cart. My expected budget will be up to about 1k. I'm looking for suggestions to read up on and consider between now and then, maybe trying to find a brick and mortar to go listen. Models that immediately come to mind are Rega RP3 and Project Expression. I don't mind considering used to try and get a better table if the improvements are tangible and readily audible. But like the idea of buying new or open box from a local dealer, assuming Atlanta still has any.
The set up will be for desktop speakers and headphones/iems, so I'm interested in the Rag as well but may need to think about a cheaper alternative. Speakers are not purchased but thinking of going with Ascend Acoustics.
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About this time next year I'll be in the market for a new turntable. Currently I have a vintage Kenwood KD500/550 'the rock' with a Shure v15 III cart. My expected budget will be up to about 1k. I'm looking for suggestions to read up on and consider between now and then, maybe trying to find a brick and mortar to go listen. Models that immediately come to mind are Rega RP3 and Project Expression. I don't mind considering used to try and get a better table if the improvements are tangible and readily audible. But like the idea of buying new or open box from a local dealer, assuming Atlanta still has any.
I'm not a big fan of the RP3. I'm not much of a Rega fan in general, but I think the RP1 and RP3 seriously under perform compared to similarly priced rivals. There is somebody around here who has a connection with Marantz, and can get a TT-15S1 for around $1K. That table is basically a Clearaudio with a Marantz badge on it, and it comes with the $950 Clearaudio Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge as standard, which will walk all over the RP3's Elys-2 cart.
If that deal is no longer workable, Music Direct has a demo on it at $1195. Otherwise I'd go with the Xpression Carbon if you want to buy new.
There isn't too much of interest on the 'gon right now at under $1K, except for this guy, but it doesn't come with a cart. You could always roll in your Shure and upgrade later, but that of course still means more money down the road. If you're gonna be waiting awhile though, things of course always change. SOTAs for example occasionally show up at very nice prices.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-pro-ject-audio-rm-9-1-evo-turntable-2015-02-01-analog-21218-baltimore-md
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I've been looking at an RP6. What would you recommend in that price range?
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I've been looking at an RP6. What would you recommend in that price range?
The aforementioned Marantz, Pro-Ject Perspex, VPI Scout SE or Scout 1.1 if you're not bothered by the JMW-9T.
http://www.musicdirect.com/p-138728-vpi-scout-11-turntable-demo.aspx
On the used market: Nottingham Interspace Jr. I use an Ace Space 294 at home and am a big fan of Nottingham tables.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-nottingham-analogue-interspace-jr-with-interspace-arm-mint-2015-01-12-analog-27614-raleigh-nc
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nm
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http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/my-range/mygroov
THD on the thousanths and RIAA within 1 db? Has to be too good to be true
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THD on the thousanths and RIAA within 1 db? Has to be too good to be true
(http://static.comicvine.com/uploads/original/11/112591/2999374-8194131681-dont-.jpg)
You'd be surprised how many phono preamps specced to within a fraction of a decibel of RIAA fail in third-party independent testing.
The THD isn't really a concern - you can have a tube amp with a thousand times more distortion and it'll still be less than what the cartridge / medium limitations introduce. Noise is a more important spec, and there this amp seems adequate, if not exceptional.
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http://www.micromega-hifi.com/en/products/my-range/mygroov
THD on the thousanths and RIAA within 1 db? Has to be too good to be true
The Analog Planet readers ranked the MyGroov 4th out of four in a blind test. It was beaten by another pre that cost $99. The MyDac is nothing to write home about either. There's WAY more to a good phono pre than rated specs.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/four-phono-preamp-file-identities-revealed
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I'm not a big fan of the RP3. I'm not much of a Rega fan in general, but I think the RP1 and RP3 seriously under perform compared to similarly priced rivals. There is somebody around here who has a connection with Marantz, and can get a TT-15S1 for around $1K. That table is basically a Clearaudio with a Marantz badge on it, and it comes with the $950 Clearaudio Virtuoso Ebony Wood cartridge as standard, which will walk all over the RP3's Elys-2 cart.
If that deal is no longer workable, Music Direct has a demo on it at $1195. Otherwise I'd go with the Xpression Carbon if you want to buy new.
There isn't too much of interest on the 'gon right now at under $1K, except for this guy, but it doesn't come with a cart. You could always roll in your Shure and upgrade later, but that of course still means more money down the road. If you're gonna be waiting awhile though, things of course always change. SOTAs for example occasionally show up at very nice prices.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-pro-ject-audio-rm-9-1-evo-turntable-2015-02-01-analog-21218-baltimore-md
Funny you mentioned that table I was just doing some random google searches and I saw it it looks nice but it her niece is calling my name. Never heard of clearaudio before this thread but now they are becoming a bit of an obsession for me. Considering skipping the technics and going for the concept, but these plans are still in the making
.The Analog Planet readers ranked the MyGroov 4th out of four in a blind test. It was beaten by another pre that cost $99. The MyDac is nothing to write home about either. There's WAY more to a good phono pre than rated specs.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/four-phono-preamp-file-identities-revealed
What's your opinion of the lounge? Heard some say it best the leahmann blackbox and that won the blind face off at analog plannet?
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So, I'm going to play the contrarian here and repesctfully push back a bit on Dave's comments about Regas.
I like Rega turntables...a lot. I have a P5 with a GrooveTracer subplatter (the one with sapphire jewel thrust pad bearing and a ceramic ball bearing). The RB700 arm has a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II moving coil cartridge. I find this table to have excellent musicality, rhythmic drive, bass articulation and definition. It's a kick out the jams kind of turntable, and what's remarkable about is that it compares quite favorably with approximately $13,000 Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V and Koetsu Vermilion turntable. You get about 85% of the performance of the Michell with the Rega P5/Sumiko for about 1/6 the price. I also have Clearaudio Concept, and while it is quite a good table for the price, IMO, the Rega P5 is better. The performance for dollar that table provides is outstanding, in my experience. I could easily live with table as my only TT, no problem at all. I also love the cherry surround for the base.
With my Soundsmith retipped Grace Ruby
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Rega%20P5-8.jpg)
The lovely Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II...a very Koetsu-like moving coil at a great price.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Sumiko%20Rega.jpg)
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What's your opinion of the lounge? Heard some say it best the leahmann blackbox and that won the blind face off at analog plannet?
I don't know about the lounge, but the two of the best phono stages I've ever heard are 1) my EAR 324 and 2) the Zesto Audio Andros. The Sutherland 20/20 is also supposed to be superb, but I have not had the opportunity to hear one. I have to admit I would love to have the Zesto, but my EAR is no slouch in any way, and has been rated a Stereophile A class phono pre for many years (and I got it at an absolute killer price).
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So, I'm going to play the contrarian here and repesctfully push back a bit on Dave's comments about Regas.
I like Rega turntables...a lot. I have a P5 with a GrooveTracer subplatter (the one with sapphire jewel thrust pad bearing and a ceramic ball bearing). The RB700 arm has a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II moving coil cartridge. I find this table to have excellent musicality, rhythmic drive, bass articulation and definition. It's a kick out the jams kind of turntable, and what's remarkable about is that it compares quite favorably with approximately $13,000 Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V and Koetsu Vermilion turntable. You get about 85% of the performance of the Michell with the Rega P5/Sumiko for about 1/6 the price. I also have Clearaudio Concept, and while it is quite a good table for the price, IMO, the Rega P5 is better. The performance for dollar that table provides is pretty amazing, in my experience.
Fair enough. I should note that I think the RP1/3 are the weakest of the lot, and things do get better with the RP6 which I guess is more comparable to the older P5. That being said, my Ace Space 294 combo with Shelter 7000 and Stillpoints clamp into my Sutherland will also make short work of the Gryo, even without the features of the Hyperspace which is a true giant slayer. I also prefer heavy mass designs, which is kind of antithetical to the Rega mission.
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Fair enough. I should note that I think the RP1/3 are the weakest of the lot, and things do get better with the RP6 which I guess is more comparable to the older P5. That being said, my Ace Space 294 combo with Shelter 7000 and Stillpoints clamp into my Sutherland will also make short work of the Gryo, even without the features of the Hyperspace which is a true giant slayer. I also prefer heavy mass designs, which is kind of antithetical to the Rega mission.
Dave, are you referring to a Nottingham deck when you say Ace Space? I've heard those several times at the Analog Room in San Jose, CA and they are great TTs. Haven't heard the Shelter 7000, but it would be interesting to put it up against my Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, if only for grins. Also, heard great things about Stillpoints, but not sure it would be compatible with the Michell design.
My Michell TT deck didn't cost me $13K, actually more like $5800, as I bought the SME and Koetsu for $1500 and $1800 respectively.
What is the Hyperspace?
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Dave, are you referring to a Nottingham deck when you say Ace Space? I've heard those several times at the Analog Room in San Jose, CA and they are great TTs. Haven't heard the Shelter 7000, but it would be interesting to put it up against my Koetsu Urushi Vermilion, if only for grins. Also, heard great things about Stillpoints, but not sure it would be compatible with the Michell design.
My Michell TT deck didn't cost me $13K, actually more like $5800, as I bought the SME and Koetsu for $1500 and $1800 respectively.
What is the Hyperspace?
Yep, Nottingham. Prior to my Ace Space I was using an older Origin Live, and shopping around for new tables I found a trade-in Ace Space 294 table/arm combo at a dealer, loved it, and snatched it up. I like the Gryo and the Orbe, but at their price points I think Nottingham has them beat, especially if you add a precision motor controller and heavy kit.
The Ace Space 294 is sort of the ultimate evolution of the Spacedeck, you get a special 14" platter that makes it extremely solid, stable, and quiet, and a 12" arm designed to partner with it.
The Hyperspace is the next rung up the Nottingham ladder, and gets the more advanced oil pumping bearing from Nottingham's flagship tables. It costs about $4500, and then you need to add the Ace Anna arm which is another $3800 or so. It's a lot of money, but together the two of them can take on just about anything.
The Shelter 7000 is two down from Shelter's flagship Harmony MC. It normally lists for $3400, but I was able to pick a new one up for about half that on Audiogon. It's a pretty neutral cart, less warm than the Koetsus that I've heard. Punchy and great for rock, but probably not the world's most sophisticated. I wouldn't pay the $3400 for sure, at that price I'd either be looking at a Miyajima, or hunting for a Benz LP-S which is my favorite cart on earth.
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So, I'm going to play the contrarian here and repesctfully push back a bit on Dave's comments about Regas.
I like Rega turntables...a lot. I have a P5 with a GrooveTracer subplatter (the one with sapphire jewel thrust pad bearing and a ceramic ball bearing). The RB700 arm has a Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II moving coil cartridge. I find this table to have excellent musicality, rhythmic drive, bass articulation and definition. It's a kick out the jams kind of turntable, and what's remarkable about is that it compares quite favorably with approximately $13,000 Michell Gyro SE MkII, SME V and Koetsu Vermilion turntable. You get about 85% of the performance of the Michell with the Rega P5/Sumiko for about 1/6 the price. I also have Clearaudio Concept, and while it is quite a good table for the price, IMO, the Rega P5 is better. The performance for dollar that table provides is outstanding, in my experience. I could easily live with table as my only TT, no problem at all. I also love the cherry surround for the base.
With my Soundsmith retipped Grace Ruby
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Rega%20P5-8.jpg)
The lovely Sumiko Pearwood Celebration II...a very Koetsu-like moving coil at a great price.
(http://photos.imageevent.com/puma_cat/fujif31andf20photos/large/Sumiko%20Rega.jpg)
Haha I like the puma signiture in the pics. This is what always gets me about regas I never heard some one say that a rega sounds good only ever heard "after I modded X the rega sounds good." This kind of turns me off to regas. Still I never heArd rega only ever heard a vpi nomad with some grado sr80i done I still have much to learn. Signed up for the show do hopefully I can't get some experience there.
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Haha I like the puma signiture in the pics. This is what always gets me about regas I never heard some one say that a rega sounds good only ever heard "after I modded X the rega sounds good." This kind of turns me off to regas. Still I never heArd rega only ever heard a vpi nomad with some grado sr80i done I still have much to learn. Signed up for the show do hopefully I can't get some experience there.
Nothing beats going out there and listening for yourself. That being said, just for comparison here's a Hyperspace. I like em big and I like em heavy 8)
(http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/catalog/product/N/T/NTAHYP.jpg)
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I don't know about the lounge, but the two of the best phono stages I've ever heard are 1) my EAR 324 and 2) the Zesto Audio Andros. The Sutherland 20/20 is also supposed to be superb, but I have not had the opportunity to hear one. I have to admit I would love to have the Zesto, but my EAR is no slouch in any way, and has been rated a Stereophile A class phono pre for many years (and I got it at an absolute killer price).
checked them out but they are a little above my price range.
Nothing beats going out there and listening for yourself. That being said, just for comparison here's a Hyperspace. I like em big and I like em heavy 8)
(http://cdn.audioaffair.co.uk/media/catalog/product/N/T/NTAHYP.jpg)
nice very monolithic, though in this range I'd probably go for the ostentatious oneDof
http://www.extravaganzi.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/One-Degree-of-Freedom-Turntable-2.jpg
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checked them out but they are a little above my price range.
For a moderately priced phono pre, check out the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II. All of the MS pres are lovely, but this one in particular is a standout in its price range.
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc010209.shtml
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:money:
thanks I was wondering if there were any discrete phono preamps on the sub-$1500 range, I couldn't find any.
my two front runners where the vista audio phono1 mk2 and the lounge phono mk3 made in america by enthusiast, figured they would be worth a shot.
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I see this asked from time to time but anyone do vinyl + headphone listening?
I'm finding a few things:
-Far too revealing of surface noise and flaws. If I have about 100 records I could probably only pick out a handful that are tolerable. I get that part of this is psychological.
-I need to try with my other TT but I can hear the movement of the spinning record along the needle IE any blackground really suffers as a result. I have records with lots of surface noise but this second point is always there even on clean sounding records.
I admit the cartridge is just an old Shure m95ED which leads me to the question of would a better cart significantly help both of the above?
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I see this asked from time to time but anyone do vinyl + headphone listening?
I'm finding a few things:
-Far too revealing of surface noise and flaws. If I have about 100 records I could probably only pick out a handful that are tolerable. I get that part of this is psychological.
-I need to try with my other TT but I can hear the movement of the spinning record along the needle IE any blackground really suffers as a result. I have records with lots of surface noise but this second point is always there even on clean sounding records.
I admit the cartridge is just an old Shure m95ED which leads me to the question of would a better cart significantly help both of the above?
I used to have my humble little "crackle and pop" set-up with a Philips Synchro Belt Drive 437, Sansui AU-217 and an AKG K240 DF.
As long as the records were dust free and the recording was good the AKG would sing. How clean can you get your vinyl sound: CD-sound clean with the warmth and depth of vinyl? Can you go beyond into the bliss of musical plankton?
I am just curious. This thread always makes me want to build a vinyl set up again.
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I can enjoy myself with vinyl into HD800 most of the time. Have you tried wood glue cleaning?
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I have not tried wood glue cleaning but I've gotten some of my records cleaned at a local shop with a VPI 16.5 which is supposed to be a pretty solid unit.
Results are mixed, some records with minor noise are a little better while records that are in rough shape had almost no change. Surface noise is surface noise as well so I get that there's some stuff that just won't clean out no matter what (rears ugly head even in brand new vinyl).
I use a little bit of a process myself, I use distilled water and diluted isopropyl alcohol to clean every record and store them in somewhat fancy sleeves. I also use a stylus brush and magic eraser on my needles.
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I see this asked from time to time but anyone do vinyl + headphone listening?
I'm finding a few things:
-Far too revealing of surface noise and flaws. If I have about 100 records I could probably only pick out a handful that are tolerable. I get that part of this is psychological.
-I need to try with my other TT but I can hear the movement of the spinning record along the needle IE any blackground really suffers as a result. I have records with lots of surface noise but this second point is always there even on clean sounding records.
I admit the cartridge is just an old Shure m95ED which leads me to the question of would a better cart significantly help both of the above?
A better cart would very likely help, some carts are much quieter than others. Aside from that, I keep my records clean via a Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro. Headphone listening with just basic washing and brushing would likely be somewhat unpleasant, though admittedly I rarely do it regardless, and my records are all pretty mint, I don't really have anything that's heavily worn. For the most part when I'm listening via headphones its to my needle drops, which thanks to post processing are nearly as quiet as the CD versions while maintaining the awesome sound of the vinyl master. I've given up on CD pretty much entirely. About 2% of the new releases I'm interested in aren't brickwalled to hell.
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A better cart would very likely help, some carts are much quieter than others. Aside from that, I keep my records clean via a Nitty Gritty Mini-Pro. Headphone listening with just basic washing and brushing would likely be somewhat unpleasant, though admittedly I rarely do it regardless, and my records are all pretty mint, I don't really have anything that's heavily worn. For the most part when I'm listening via headphones its to my needle drops, which thanks to post processing are nearly as quiet as the CD versions while maintaining the awesome sound of the vinyl master. I've given up on CD pretty much entirely. About 2% of the new releases I'm interested in aren't brickwalled to hell.
I've tried to stick with budget carts so far simply because the replacement cost of the stylus is usually as much as an entire cart especially the higher up in price I look. Maybe I can step up to a AT440mla or DL-110/103r in the future as an in-between cost/performance now that I'm deeper down the rabbit hole.
I can get the CD thing. Before I was into vinyl, about 75% of my listening was SACD/CD but I do actively labor extensively to find older masters and albums with better DR values. The latest Aphex Twin, Marilyn Manson, even Beck are huge disappointments on CD despite being great albums. Guess we can't win them all :(
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When CDs are intolerable due to the loudness treatment they are either destined to be ignored or speaker only.
When music does not sound dynamic enough through the headphones, speakers are the last resort...
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I've tried to stick with budget carts so far simply because the replacement cost of the stylus is usually as much as an entire cart especially the higher up in price I look. Maybe I can step up to a AT440mla or DL-110/103r in the future as an in-between cost/performance now that I'm deeper down the rabbit hole.
The 440MLA is a nice cart. The 103R is a great fairly low cost way to get into the world of MC - provided you've got the right setup for it. It's low compliance and pretty low output for an affordable MC, so you'll want to give it a heavier arm, at least a good 60dB of gain, and around 100Ohm loading.
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For a moderately priced phono pre, check out the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II. All of the MS pres are lovely, but this one in particular is a standout in its price range.
http://www.stereotimes.com/acc010209.shtml
I refuse to buy something without any specs
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I refuse to buy something without any specs
You could ask MS about measured specs if that's so important. Sutherland doesn't quote any bench measurements for the Duo, didn't stop me from buying it, because it's an absolute beast of a phono pre, one of the best SS pre's I've heard under $10K.
Now a company like Benchmark OTOH will sell you all day long on their measurements. Good luck with that.
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You could ask MS about measured specs if that's so important. Sutherland doesn't quote any bench measurements for the Duo, didn't stop me from buying it, because it's an absolute beast of a phono pre, one of the best SS pre's I've heard under $10K.
Now a company like Benchmark OTOH will sell you all day long on their measurements. Good luck with that.
can you talk a little bit about the other pre you heard under $1000?
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can you talk a little bit about the other pre you heard under $1000?
There are loads of them out there and I certainly haven't heard them all, but at under $1K I would suggest starting with the Lehmann Black Cube SE, MS Phonomena II+, and Sutherland Ph3D. They're all different, and a lot will depend on your specific setup. The Black Cube for example is capable of 66dB of gain which will be useful for very low output MCs, but its loading options are very limited. The Phonomena doesn't have quite that level of gain, but it can do 30, 40, 50, 59, 80, 100, 121, 150, 243, 280, 380, 475, 660, 1k, 2k, 50k, or 100k Ohms, which is incredibly versatile for a $750 Phono pre. Most pres just can't match that. My Duo lists for more than 5X as much, and it certainly can't.
The Ph3D is battery powered unlike the other two, and there are pluses and minuses to that. You get total isolation from the AC line of course, but much like a passive pre, you give up some dynamics. Some folks will like it, others won't. I personally prefer Ron's AC powered designs, but they all cost more. The closest one I think is the Insight, which is $1400.
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In my book the 103R should be loaded at 150-185 Ohms, no more-no less. Depending on the system and personal taste that is of course questionable but if the system is sonically balanced that would be my recommendation.
And there are a couple of other phono stages that cost under 1K and are highly configurable, the iPhono and the Musical Fidelity M1 come in mind. I have had experience with both these and at their respective price brackets I find them quite enjoyable.
The M1 is faster, more quite therefor very detailed and the front LCD screen is fancy to say the least. On the minus side, it may sound a bit lean (probably due to the SMPS)
The iPhono sounds very good, melodic and for a mere $400 it will actually provide all the necessary gain even for very low MCs. I used it with great success with carts down to 0.24mV without a SUT.
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I stepped up my vinyl game even more recently.
The "main squeeze" vinyl rig is now a Thorens TD-160mk1 with Denon DL-103 (non R), the phono section is the built in out of a Marantz PM Ki Pearl (non lite). Still have the SL-1600 + SX1280 happily doing daily duty though.
I've got the VTF at 2 and anti skate at 0. I've seen recommendations for 0 anti skate but I think VE database says 2.2; ears so far maybe prefer zero.
The Marantz has a standard MC loading of 100 ohms but I am not sure if it is user adjustable. So far sounds much better than the M95ED and SX-780 that I had going on but obviously at a million times the price it is to be expected. With headphones it is more tolerable of a listen but maybe a little dark sounding with the Marantz' built in headphone jack and HD600.
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The classic 103 should be loaded at 470 Ohms give or take and it should "see" some serious inertial mass on the tonearm in order to resonate at an appropriate frequency. From what I recall the PM phono stage has 2 gain options and no loading adjustments. My favorite set up would be to use the PM phono at MM setting and insert a step up in the chain.
Among others I have a somewhat similar set up with the 103R and a SUT built by me, based on the Cinemag transformers (pretty much the same used by Bob's devices), excellent sound at affordable price. If you decide to build a SUT and you face any issues I could help.
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I have recently acquired a Denon 103r and i am more than pleased with it.
It is used on a Jelco 750DB and my phono is a Musical Fidelity M1 Vynl.
Loading is 200r because i don't have anything in between 100 and 200, and i agree with DrPanK about everything.
I can dare say that this is the best low (lower) cost items i have ever used.
In my system this combination is my everyday casual listening set and i love it.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/537/GaBMDH.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/exGaBMDHj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/540/52WYIy.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/f052WYIyj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/538/Rwr21w.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/eyRwr21wj)
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/1024x768q90/661/Kibu6S.jpg) (https://imageshack.com/i/idKibu6Sj)
You can see my system in post #117
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The difference between 150-180 and 200 is minimal and goes unnoticed Chris. How comes you are not using the ASR basis phono with the 103R?
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No specific reason, i have my parallel arm/ Audio Technica AT33ev on the ASR.
I will test it in the near future.
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I have recently acquired a Denon 103r and i am more than pleased with it.
It is used on a Jelco 750DB and my phono is a Musical Fidelity M1 Vynl.
Loading is 200r because i don't have anything in between 100 and 200, and i agree with DrPanK about everything.
I can dare say that this is the best low (lower) cost items i have ever used.
In my system this combination is my everyday casual listening set and i love it.
You can see my system in post #117
removed the photos, but holy hell.
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Did i do something wrong? i don't understand
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What BlackenedPlague meant is that he removed the photos from his reply.
Speaking of which maybe I should post some photos of my analog rig too..
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Can someone suggest some LOMC cartridges that are moderately to very warm/dark? Rolled off highs are OK too, possibly even a bonus.
I'm looking to use the cartridge as a tone control for mediocre to poorly recorded Latin music from the 60s/70s which will often be overly bright with often nasty/super aggressive/fatiguing mids/highs.
Cartridge will be used on a VPI Classic 1 with the regular 10.5i arm though I am looking at getting the new 3D armwand so I can have both carts mounted at the same time. The current cartridge is a Lyra Kleos and the new cartridge must be MC as the phono amp (Channel D Seta L) only does MC.
My quick initial list (based off reading some reviews) was:
Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
Shelter 501 MkIII
Benz?
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Can someone suggest some LOMC cartridges that are moderately to very warm/dark? Rolled off highs are OK too, possibly even a bonus.
I'm looking to use the cartridge as a tone control for mediocre to poorly recorded Latin music from the 60s/70s which will often be overly bright with often nasty/super aggressive/fatiguing mids/highs.
Cartridge will be used on a VPI Classic 1 with the regular 10.5i arm though I am looking at getting the new 3D armwand so I can have both carts mounted at the same time. The current cartridge is a Lyra Kleos and the new cartridge must be MC as the phono amp (Channel D Seta L) only does MC.
My quick initial list (based off reading some reviews) was:
Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
Shelter 501 MkIII
Benz?
The latest Ikeda 9TS fits the bill perfectly!
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My quick initial list (based off reading some reviews) was:
Ortofon Cadenza Bronze
Shelter 501 MkIII
Benz?
Koetsu Black would be a good option. Unfortunately Benz carts are hard to get hold of these days.
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Thanks for the suggestions! Both the 9TS and Koetsu look really interesting. I will start scouting out the usual places for a good deal on one. :)
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Thanks for the suggestions! Both the 9TS and Koetsu look really interesting. I will start scouting out the usual places for a good deal on one. :)
Keep in mind that not all Koetsu Black are the same. Some early series were made by Musashino labs for Koetsu and reputation is not on par with the Sugano made ones.
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Look at a Koetsu Black for sure, preferably a Sugano San version.
Also the Kiseki Purpleheart would likely be amazing for you.
Benz cartridges would work, but they are harder to come by now in the USA.
Shelter carts would also work for you. Pick the one you are financially comfortable with.
Now, I am not sure what are the adjustments available on your phono, but you can get most MC carts to sound fuller by loading them down more through the phono section.
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Finally bought myself a good turntable, the Wega JPS350p.
(http://36.media.tumblr.com/a8b6d649b631ec44f84a31747eb2c414/tumblr_mgtonbUOyw1r873zxo1_500.jpg)
Weighs 7 kilos, so that alone puts it above the majority of today's plastic/cardboard crap.
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I have a piddly little system compared to the rest of you, but I just got my acrylic platter upgrade for my Debut Carbon yesterday.
There's some debate about whether or not it makes a difference, but it most certainly does.
1) Darker background
2) More stable bass
3) Looks awesome :P
I'm pleased.
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new intro turntable
http://www.cnet.com/news/a-brilliant-new-turntable-from-a-100-plus-year-old-company/
what you guys think?
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At 1000$ I would opt for a Rega (better tonearm, easier to resell, upgradable)
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I think I asked this before in the IRC, but is anyone making a good direct drive turntable these days? I'm only seeing belts.
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new intro turntable
http://www.cnet.com/news/a-brilliant-new-turntable-from-a-100-plus-year-old-company/
what you guys think?
I'm not sure if they are making this in house, but the cheaper Thorens tables AFAIK are old Dual models that they are sticking a Thorens badge on, and aren't very good. The $1K mark is a bit of a no-mans land between the mediocre entry level belt drive tables, and the more serious stuff. Rega, Pro-Ject, and Musical Fidelity all have tables for $1K, but if you can spend just a few hundred more, you generally get A LOT more for your money. The $1K MF Roundtable for example comes with a $40 AT95E, a cart you can get on a U-turn Orbit.
The $1300 Pro-Ject 2Xperience Classic on the other hand comes with a $450 Sumiko Blue Point MC cart.
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they said its produced in germany if its worth anything.
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I think I asked this before in the IRC, but is anyone making a good direct drive turntable these days? I'm only seeing belts.
Other than the $30K VPI, the short answer is no. The best rationally priced tables (M-W REAL, Feickert Woodpecker, Nottingham Dias) are all belt drives. It just doesn't seem like there's much interest in direct drives these days, and you could argue that outside of Japan, there never really was, even during the heyday of high-end DD tables in the '70s and early '80s. Plus the big firms that were making them are either gone, or their tables today are basically a joke.
You'll likely never see anything like this from Pioneer ever again, for example. Yamaha, Denon, Sony, Technics, and Kenwood also all made spectacular direct drives in the '70s, and those are never coming back either.
(http://audio-heritage.jp/PIONEER-EXCLUSIVE/player/p3a.JPG)
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Can anyone offer suggestions for a good rack/stand with vibration isolation/dampening and high load capacity? Bonus points if it's from a Canadian company which will make logistics easier for me.
I would like to have the TT (VPI Classic) on top with space for a phono stage, ADC and something else (pre-amp?) below it.
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(http://i217.photobucket.com/albums/cc85/jimmyneutron1003/IMG_1589.jpg)
You want something like the above.
It's a smaller version of this...
(http://zenseeker.net/Kid/Sand/sandbox_lrg.jpg)
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The second image is not showing but I suspect it is a SRA/Vibraplane type thing?
I think that would be the best course. Get a good multi platform metal/wood A/V stand, stick a few isolator blocks (hockey pucks?) under with a SRA/Vibraplane + TT on top.
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Can anyone offer suggestions for a good rack/stand with vibration isolation/dampening and high load capacity? Bonus points if it's from a Canadian company which will make logistics easier for me.
I would like to have the TT (VPI Classic) on top with space for a phono stage, ADC and something else (pre-amp?) below it.
You're looking for a full rack right, not individual shelves or isolators? Off the bat, first thing I would do is get in touch with EdenSound, let them know what you're looking for, and see what they can do for you. Their stuff is pretty amazing, and compared to what you'll pay for something like an HRS or Grand Prix rack, their prices are incredibly low.
(http://edensoundaudio.com/Nice%20Rack%20high%20angle.jpg)
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I don't think that I've posted here. I have a U-Turn Orbit with a Grado Black cartridge. I like the simplicity of the unit and the ability to replace any part rather easily. I don't like going from 45rpm to 33rpm though, it's a pain in a way. Other than that I'm satisfied with it overall, though I'm thinking I would have been better off with an Audio Technica LP120.
My collection can be viewed here (http://www.discogs.com/user/keanex/collection). I was buying records really often, but have had to cut back due to money issues thanks to medical bills.
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Just a heads up for the vinyl junkies around here. There's a roughly 50% off deal on Agon right now on a Nottingham Ace Space 294 with all the goodies: Ace arm, heavy kit, wave mechanic. Absolutely killer table, and for that price, probably unbeatable.
http://app.audiogon.com/listings/turntables-nottingham-analogue-spacedeck-294-ace-space-arm-12-inch-heavy-kit-wavemechanic-power-2015-05-17-analog-46324-hammond-in
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I've been taken in by the fluid dampening headshell outrigger mechanism with this table. So have the Townshend Rock 7 incoming with a Helius Omega Silver Ruby tonearm. Should probably have it in a month or so...
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2012/06/09/newport-2012-marten-ear-and-townshend/
Some pics:
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/Newport%202012/CT6A0881a.jpg)
(http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z446/sthull/Newport%202012/CT6A0889a.jpg)
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This has never happened before, but I finally found a turntable I've been looking for, for the past 7 years! I am horrendously excited about it and just had to bump this thread! The wife sees me excited but I am not telling her why this time....for fear of getting my ass kicked for making two turntable purchases (this and the Townshend Rock 7 above) in such a short period of time!
I can share it my ma Changstar peeps :) It is a Micro Seiki BL-91L with a SME 3012 Series II Tonearm:
(http://www.hiendoption.com/forums/data/attachment/forum/201111/28/003416agad1w19mce2cawy.jpg)
:)p1 :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
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Those SME tonearms are the shiznit! :)p1
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This has never happened before, but I finally found a turntable I've been looking for, for the past 7 years! I am horrendously excited about it and just had to bump this thread! The wife sees me excited but I am not telling her why this time....for fear of getting my ass kicked for making two turntable purchases (this and the Townshend Rock 7 above) in such a short period of time!
I can share it my ma Changstar peeps :) It is a Micro Seiki BL-91L with a SME 3012 Series II Tonearm:
NICE! Micro Seiki tables are fantastic. Name any ultra high-end Japanese table from the '70s and '80s, and it's almost a sure bet that Micro had a hand in making it.
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Those SME tonearms are the shiznit! :)p1
You know, this will be the very first SME arm I own. I've never owned one before, but I have listened to many in unfamiliar systems. So never really understood how much the arm was doing. Regardless, I will learn more about them this time around. Their reputation is unprecedented...the 3009, 3012 series. We shall see :)
NICE! Micro Seiki tables are fantastic. Name any ultra high-end Japanese table from the '70s and '80s, and it's almost a sure bet that Micro had a hand in making it.
Totally agree. Micro Seiki ruled the roost back then for building world class turntables. I currently own a BL-21 which I acquired brand new, sealed. That is such a joy to use even though it is a basic belt drive. Still many times better looking than comparable belt drives today. The BL-91 is an upper mid level belt drive Micro Seiki. So should be a big improvement, at least I hope it is. I've lusted after one for many years....just was never able to acquire it...the stars were never aligned....till today.
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Love the Micro Seiki. p:3 Doesn't one of the old Micro Seiki guys design the TechDAS tables now?
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Love the Micro Seiki. p:3 Doesn't one of the old Micro Seiki guys design the TechDAS tables now?
Yup.
http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/meet-your-maker-hideaki-niskikawa-of-techdas/?page=2
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U-Turn Pluto vs Schiit Mani on Analogplanet
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/u-turn-pluto-versus-schiit-mani-which-sounds-better
Battle of budget phono amps; download the (not yet identified) audio samples and vote!
(spoiler: IMO B was way better, no contest)
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What A-D they using?
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Lynx Hilo ADC
TT is Onkyo CP-1050 DD + Shure M97xE cartridge (budget minded setup, makes no sense to use his über rig)
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This has never happened before, but I finally found a turntable I've been looking for, for the past 7 years! I am horrendously excited about it and just had to bump this thread! The wife sees me excited but I am not telling her why this time....for fear of getting my ass kicked for making two turntable purchases (this and the Townshend Rock 7 above) in such a short period of time!
I can share it my ma Changstar peeps :) It is a Micro Seiki BL-91L with a SME 3012 Series II Tonearm:
:)p1 :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
congrats man!!
good to hear you reach the top of your audio mountain. I admit having listen to your other tables I am curious what your audio nirvana sounds like....
and whether it smells like teen spirit.
couldn't resit a bad joke.
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congrats man!!
good to hear you reach the top of your audio mountain. I admit having listen to your other tables I am curious what your audio nirvana sounds like....
and whether it smells like teen spirit.
couldn't resit a bad joke.
Hey bud! Not the top of the audio mountain, but definitely its a big deal for me. I've been trying to get this turntable for far too many years....it's that elusive white elephant :)
Frankly, I will probably end up with Kuzma Stabi XL4 (or with the new DC motor) as a final hurrah / destination table. There is one on the way that I bought on behalf of my buddy. I will listen to it and decide if I want one for myself as well at some point. THAT would be the top of my analog audio mountain.
About the two files posted. DEFINITELY File B for me...File A starts getting fatiguing really quick!
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Hey bud! Not the top of the audio mountain, but definitely its a big deal for me. I've been trying to get this turntable for far too many years....it's that elusive white elephant :)
Frankly, I will probably end up with Kuzma Stabi XL4 (or with the new DC motor) as a final hurrah / destination table. There is one on the way that I bought on behalf of my buddy. I will listen to it and decide if I want one for myself as well at some point. THAT would be the top of my analog audio mountain.
About the two files posted. DEFINITELY File B for me...File A starts getting fatiguing really quick!
oh no
(http://www.voodoochilli.net/uploads/illustration/images/7887_22306.jpg)
it seems your still falling down the rabbit hole. :)p13
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WANNqr-vcx0
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Feels more like :shark:
:)p13 :)p13
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So for fun and education (I'm slowly teaching myself how to (re)master old music) I pulled those phono amp samples into iZotope RX and started playing around.
First thing is that they aren't even close to level matched. B was about 2LUFS louder using the ITU BS.1770 standard which in this case is equal to about 2dB RMS. I think Fremer went back and mostly fixed this. I haven't looked at the new samples he uploaded but for sure he stopped using peak normalization and used something RMS based.
Second thing is that one of the samples has a major (1.5dB) channel imbalance which is pulling the image out. Pretty sure it's A since I doubt a modern recording like this would have the singers not in the middle of the image.
Anyhow, once you fix these two problems they become a LOT closer. I don't have a reference for this recording but A has quite a lot more low end punch and a bit of sizzle in the treble. B is more even handed. The Shure cart is certainly having an effect too; lots of variables!
I'm still going with B since I'm pretty confident A is the one with technical issues. Hopefully Fremer will toss up a reference version using his own equipment to show "how it could be".
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It has landed! I finally setup the Micro Seiki BL-91L that I got over the weekend in San Diego
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3819/19646657352_3b64af8054_b.jpg)
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Very nice :)
What kind of maple block is that below the table? Been meaning to pick one up for myself for a while now.
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Thanks! That is a Mapleshade block.
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For those curious what a 6 figure analog front end sounds like Fremer put up 24/96 needledrops of two full tracks from original "RL" pressings of Zeppelin and The Band. Will only be there for the weekend; I assume he doesn't want to incur the wrath of the copyright police.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/you-asked-it-weekend-only
Go grab them and add em to your "gear evaluation" folder :)
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hello,
@Chris F.
file L made me come in my pants. headbang
(edit: i know TMI. but, it did, surface noise and all!)
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So I have always had a solid rubber mat on my 1200. I'm cleaning up my old Pioneer for my dad and don't have a mat. What do you guys dig? Cork, rubber? Keeping it cheap here as it's a decent but low budget setup. It has a lot less mass than my Technics so I was leaning towards rubber. Ortofon 2M Red and Schiit Mani. Thanks in advance!
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For those curious what a 6 figure analog front end sounds like Fremer put up 24/96 needledrops of two full tracks from original "RL" pressings of Zeppelin and The Band. Will only be there for the weekend; I assume he doesn't want to incur the wrath of the copyright police.
http://www.analogplanet.com/content/you-asked-it-weekend-only
Go grab them and add em to your "gear evaluation" folder :)
damn I'll be honest I was to lazy to plug in my 450+ uerms, so I just put my protapros to my laptop jack and it sounded amazing. Anybody know where I can buy digital files that are that dynamic?
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damn I'll be honest I was to lazy to plug in my 450+ uerms, so I just put my protapros to my laptop jack and it sounded amazing. Anybody know where I can buy digital files that are that dynamic?
hello,
i would be happy buying cd's if they sounded this good. i can't imagine what something like "The Best Damn Thing" could hit like if it were mastered at all well.
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Gotta love vinyl when it's done right. How can something with such a high noise floor have such huge dynamics? What voodoo is this? :)p13
Seriously though the exact same thoughts hit me big time a month ago. I was DJing for one of the biggest local salsa/dance events of the year and we had a great sounding big open room with a pretty big PA setup (2xEVZXA5 + 2xJBL535). I was playing my 24/96 vinyl rips back to back with modern masters and the dynamics of (well mastered) vinyl was absolutely slaying the modern stuff. The best modern recordings (which sound VERY good) got close but still not quite the same magic as the best vintage stuff....
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Gotta love vinyl when it's done right. How can something with such a high noise floor have such huge dynamics? What voodoo is this? :)p13
Seriously though the exact same thoughts hit me big time a month ago. I was DJing for one of the biggest local salsa/dance events of the year and we had a great sounding big open room with a pretty big PA setup (2xEVZXA5 + 2xJBL535). I was playing my 24/96 vinyl rips back to back with modern masters and the dynamics of (well mastered) vinyl was absolutely slaying the modern stuff. The best modern recordings (which sound VERY good) got close but still not quite the same magic as the best vintage stuff....
That's pretty much it about digital v. TT atm. Yggy ended my digital search till a better output comes round. The rest is tweaking around USB or avoiding it. Apart from that, it's vinyl. Unfortunately some will hear bad vinyl on a poorly set up vinyl rig and poo poo it. Till you hear the best that both digital and vinyl have to offer, the difference is clear. Close at best, but no cigar. Of course, convenience is no contest at all.
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Technics getting back into high end audio?
http://www.stereophile.com/content/technics-event-nys-audio-den-friday#OvYcF2PoSUsIRrRE.97
What would it take to make bring back their turntables?
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What would it take to make bring back their turntables?
I wouldn't hold your breath. The business case for a new, genuine SL-1200 would be pretty difficult considering how easy it would be to just slap their name on yet another Hanpin SuperOEM, as much of an insult that would be to the real SL-1200...which was also always a bit of an overrated table to begin with. Sure it was incredibly robust, great at beat matching etc, but as an audiophile table, at least out of the box, eh.
The Technics you want is the SP-10 MKIII, which ranks up there with the best Japanese direct drives ever produced, and it ain't comin' back. I imagine the cost to bring a new one out would be astronomical, and a direct drive with a five figure price tag wearing the Technics badge I just don't think is going to sell, at least not outside of a tiny niche that has fetishized tables like the Garrard 401 and the Pioneer Exclusive P3a.
The one company that I think could do something like that is Sony - build a new PS-X9 for the home market to go along with their $20K speakers that came out a few years back. I don't think they will though. The other guys though, Denon, Yamaha, Kenwood, Pioneer, Technics - never again.
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I wish they would just start making 1200s again. Not sure why they stopped. I guess the profit wasn't there anymore? They must still have the tools/dies and whatever else is needed.
The Hanpin/SuperOEM stuff in it's zillion forms is OK (I own a pair of mint Numark Pro TT-1s which are like the grandaddy of the line) but for me the 1200 is pretty much the perfect "all around" turntable. Super durable, very forgiving to setup, relatively inexpensive, and it sounds good.
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Getting a custom tonearm base that I got made in India! It's shipping out July 29th....damn excited!
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/361/19704553848_fd7c2704f5_b.jpg)
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I wish they would just start making 1200s again. Not sure why they stopped. I guess the profit wasn't there anymore? They must still have the tools/dies and whatever else is needed.
I think it was a combination of competition from cheaper Chinese tables, plus digital tables for the DJ market that did the SL-1200 in. It was never hugely popular for the home market, particularly in the west which always looked down on DDs, even during their '70s and '80s golden era. Rightly or wrongly, belt drives were always considered superior for audiophiles, never mind the fact that tables like the Exclusive or the Kenwood L-07D would eat Sondeks and Pink Triangles for breakfast. Most of them were never exported.
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SL1200 is better than pretty much all the low to mid-end belt drives from Rega, Pro-ject, etc. So if they could bring it back then it would give folks solid direct drive option. And like you mentioned their DD motors could be put into higher-end choice akin to the SP10 to match with modern arms.
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SL1200 is better than pretty much all the low to mid-end belt drives from Rega, Pro-ject, etc. So if they could bring it back then it would give folks solid direct drive option. And like you mentioned their DD motors could be put into higher-end choice akin to the SP10 to match with modern arms.
Better than the RP1 and Debut Carbon yes. I don't love the RP3 either, but a bone stock SL against a Pro-Ject RPM 3 Carbon might have a tough time on its hands.
I'm curious how the new Onkyo DD will do. It's yet another shameless Hanpin rebadge, with an idiotic choice of carts and sloppy QC, and seems mostly designed to appeal to people looking for that '70s look without wanting to buy an actual, and FAR superior '70s era table. If enough morons buy that piece of crap, maybe Technics might be convinced to bring back the real thing.
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Tell you what. From all the videos I've seen, the Super OEM DD motor seems superior to the SL1200 (assuming it lasts). Superior torque figures all around for one. At this point, that's all I'm interested in. I can deal with platters, plinths and arms on my own. That's how I see it.
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Tell you what. From all the videos I've seen, the Super OEM DD motor seems superior to the SL1200 (assuming it lasts). Superior torque figures all around for one. At this point, that's all I'm interested in. I can deal with platters, plinths and arms on my own. That's how I see it.
Interesting. Has anybody put together a high-end table using that motor, ala the Garrard 301?
(http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Garrard/Jurgen%20Loos/JLGarrard301.JPG)
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Not that I know of, but that's the direction I'm looking to go. It was either that or a SP10 rebuild which seemed more $$ and complex in the long run. I suppose it depends on your priorities.
Here's a comparison of the SL1200 DD motor v. a Reloop (Super OEM) DD motor. Apples to Apples.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pPSvzgsB7UM
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OK, here's some dummy questions as I'm digging deep into this:
1: Between my Rega RP6/Ortofon Black cartidge and my Rega Fono MM pre-amp, there is a very high noise floor. I've tried some other preamps (notably all cheap) and it the noise doesn't go away. Is that a cartridge issue or is that a I have only tried cheap pre-amps?
2: My Yggy sounds considerably better than my setup. Is a MC cartridge the best way to level up here? And does that require a complete replacement of my tonearm? And if that's the case, I should probably get another table (yay, more tables!).
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OK, here's some dummy questions as I'm digging deep into this:
1: Between my Rega RP6/Ortofon Black cartidge and my Rega Fono MM pre-amp, there is a very high noise floor. I've tried some other preamps (notably all cheap) and it the noise doesn't go away. Is that a cartridge issue or is that a I have only tried cheap pre-amps?
2: My Yggy sounds considerably better than my setup. Is a MC cartridge the best way to level up here? And does that require a complete replacement of my tonearm? And if that's the case, I should probably get another table (yay, more tables!).
From what I've read at least, the Fono MM is pretty good as far as MM preamps go. The fixed 100pF loading is a bit under what Ortofon recommends for the 2M series (150-300) but the additional capacitance from the cable would likely be enough to push you up into that range, and in any case, shouldn't account for the noise floor issue.
Rega arms are typically good with around 4-11g carts, and the 2M Black is right in the middle there, 7.2g. My first guess would probably be that your problem is VTA. The 2M Black uses a Shibata stylus that's very sensitive to VTA, and since Rega's attitude to VTA adjustment is "lulz, what's that?" you'll need a shim if you don't already have one. I believe Ortofon recommends a 3.2mm shim, but you can check with them.
Other than that, re-check your alignment. You could definitely beat the 2M Black with something like a Miyajima Takumi or Goldring Legacy MC, but those will obviously require a new Phono pre, and high-end, low output MCs demand a good one. Figure on at LEAST something like a MS Phonomena. And if you're going to do all THAT, you might maaaaybe think about changing tables instead. Keep the Black, keep the Rega Fono, and maybe try something like a Funk Firm LSD?
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An AT95 or MLA440 MM cart can sound equal to or better than the Yggy. You have an issue(s) somewhere else. No idea how the Ortofon Black sounds.
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My Yggy sounds considerably better than my setup. Is a MC cartridge the best way to level up here? And does that require a complete replacement of my tonearm? And if that's the case, I should probably get another table (yay, more tables!).
MC cart, until you realize that a better tonearm is needed to take advantage of the resolution of cart that you choose, then pre-amp since you realize your old pre-amp was crap, then you start hearing motor and/or bearing noise which means better table (motor, bearings), then you realize you need better blackness, so a precision motor to control RPM or a massive plinth and/or platter. Then you realize you need special wires from the cart to your phono-pre. Then you want super expensive transformers on your phono-pre to get the last bits of low-level information. Then you start all over again.
I do not recommend taking the path of vinyl.
Also, you'll discover your own preferences and hit dead-ends were you will need to do turn-arounds: direct drive or belt drive, long or not so long tonearms or linear tracking, heavy or light tonearms, appropriate carts to go with the tonearms, suspension or heavy mass, etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach. Some approaches start off better, but don't scale as much once you get into uber-land.
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MC cart, until you realize that a better tonearm is needed to take advantage of the resolution of cart that you choose, then pre-amp since you realize your old pre-amp was crap, then you start hearing motor and/or bearing noise which means better table (motor, bearings), then you realize you need better blackness, so a precision motor to control RPM or a massive plinth and/or platter. Then you realize you need special wires from the cart to your phono-pre. Then you want super expensive transformers on your phono-pre to get the last bits of low-level information. Then you start all over again.
I do not recommend taking the path of vinyl.
Also, you'll discover your own preferences and hit dead-ends were you will need to do turn-arounds: direct drive or belt drive, long or not so long tonearms or linear tracking, heavy or light tonearms, appropriate carts to go with the tonearms, suspension or heavy mass, etc. There are advantages and disadvantages to each approach. Some approaches start off better, but don't scale as much once you get into uber-land.
Hahaha. Vinyl is unquestionably a rabbit hole that one can easily fall down and hit the bottom with an empty wallet. That doesn't have to be the case though. A Yggdrasil is $2300, and even though it appears to be a stone cold bargain compared to most of the silly priced uber level DACs out there, that's still a fairly significant chunk of change.
For $2300, you could get a fully restored/modernized Thorens TD-160, an AT33-PTG/II, and a Lehmann Black Cube Phono pre. It won't kill everything in its path the way a Yggdrasil might, but you'd have to spend some pretty big bucks to genuinely beat it, say $3500+. Those old Thorens belt drives punch way above modern comparably priced tables, the 33-PTG/II is a super star, and the Black Cube is very capable for a cheap MM/MC preamp.
Also, if you're like me and you listen to rock and metal from the '70s through present day, I absolutely recommend going vinyl. For one thing, just about everything "mainstream" released on CD post 1993 sounds like shit.
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Agree. Vinyl is a bitch to setup properly and maintain. On top of that it's horribly expensive.
But, in return, you get access to a large library of music which has NEVER been released in digital, some of which is EXCEPTIONALLY good. On top of this, vinyl masters tend to be superior to their digital counterparts.
Personally, I would let your taste in music make the decision. If you primarily listen to genres like classic rock, classical - or like me - latin music then yes getting a nice analog front end and a good ADC (cause you are going to be doing needledrops) is absolutely in your best interest.
That said, get your digital sorted first!
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(http://www.theanalogdept.com/images/spp6_pics/Garrard/Jurgen%20Loos/JLGarrard301.JPG)
[/quote]
have you heard one? does it live up to the hype?
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A Rega P3 with good Audio Technica cartridge playing all-analog recordings should sound killer and not break the bank.
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A Rega P3 with good Audio Technica cartridge playing all-analog recordings should sound killer and not break the bank.
Well yeah when you have mono block 2a3 tube phonos of course that's more than enough facepalm :-DD
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have you heard one? does it live up to the hype?
Nope. My guess though is probably not, or at least isn't worth the money unless you're going to be building the plinth yourself rather than spending thousands on a pre-made one. I think idlers went away for a reason.
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I'd like to weigh in here a bit....
If you are into the convenience factor, digital should be pursued. It can sound very very good, but vinyl.....
Vinyl will help you realize that everything digital is just an approximation of what you are hearing. I enjoy both. If I had to pick just one, it would be a vinyl setup any day of my musical life.
Pursue vinyl, consult friends, people who know what can be achieved, listen to different setups, learn, learn and learn. Then pick your table, arm, phono cart, phono stage, interconnect and life is better than good!
I write this post from a very tranquil mindset while listening to the new Roger Waters - Amused to Death reissue from Analog Productions. Digital does NOT do this sound/feeling.
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Shaizada pretty much nails the eternal question. My digital rig is excellent but my analog one plays real music.
Speaking of which I use a Garrard 401 with external motor controller, huge plinth and great arms and carts, it is the epicenter of my system. Yes it is worth investing on those old idler TTs! If someone wants details and tips on how to set up something similar will gladly provide em
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Speaking of which I use a Garrard 401 with external motor controller, huge plinth and great arms and carts, it is the epicenter of my system. Yes it is worth investing on those old idler TTs! If someone wants details and tips on how to set up something similar will gladly provide em
Cool. Have you ever compared it to a modern belt drive like a Nottingham or Dr. Feickert?
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Shaizada pretty much nails the eternal question. My digital rig is excellent but my analog one plays real music.
Speaking of which I use a Garrard 401 with external motor controller, huge plinth and great arms and carts, it is the epicenter of my system. Yes it is worth investing on those old idler TTs! If someone wants details and tips on how to set up something similar will gladly provide em
I need to get an idler wheel table at some point...going to hear a fully restored, perfect Garrard 301 next week, Fidelity research FR-64s tonearm and Ortofon SPU cartridge. Maybe I can contact you after I wrap my head around the sound of that table, which I've heard is VERY VERY special!
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I'm very curious to hear what you think. The Artisan Fidelity Garrards are certainly gorgeous, but as with so many of these classics, it can be hard to separate what's hype from what's actually real.
(http://img.usaudiomart.com/uploads/large/885117-garrard-301-macassar-ebony-panzerholz-by-artisan-fidelity.jpg)
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Save your pennies for an EMT? (should only take a dump trucks worth or so for a prime EMT 927.... :)p13)
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Man that Artisan Fidelity Garrard makes me drool every time I see it!! :-0
In the meantime, this is the latest addition to the analog family in my setup. I don't think I posted it here on Changstar...pardon me if I did already (Townshend Rock 7, Helius Silver Ruby Tonearm, Merlin 3 DC Power Supply, Van Den Hul Grasshopper III GLA MC Cartridge):
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/350/19797369869_8785359f7a_b.jpg)
(https://farm1.staticflickr.com/432/19976340982_954b847173_b.jpg)
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3795/19796005068_c795e01f52_b.jpg)
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Never actually heard an Artisan Garrard as they are mostly sold in the US, the looks are gorgeous. Have some things that don't convince me 100% like the tonearm base which in my eyes offers limited path to resonance draining .
Will post some pics of my behemoth when back from the sea..
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So I've been testing a bunch of things and trying to figure it out. Unfortunately, changing vinyl setups is a ton of work and most of the stuff I have is low-money, which can sound awesome, but it means I'm only hearing a small section of what's available. But, I've come to conclusions.
1: All of the preamps I've tried (including an EC preamp) have noticeable noise floor when I turn up the volume to some normal but louder listening volumes (gonna guess somewhere between 70 and 90db). This is when I haven't plugged in the table yet. Maybe there's a better way to solve it.
2: The Ortofon 2M Black is an awesome cartridge. While I like the AT440MLA and I'll keep it setup on my other table, the Ortofon has some great bass extension and resolution and isn't as bright as the AT. The EC preamp really opened things up and made a difference, but the TCC-750 and the Rega TT were surprisingly capable.
3: Preamps make a bigger difference to vinyl's sound than amps, though I'd say on par with DACs, having recently compared a bunch of amps recently
4: Marv is right, it seems like there isn't a consistent upgrade path, there are like 4 going in different directions. In fact, I was thinking of how a tube preamp might sound and I thought to get the resolution I'd need, I'd probably want a great transformer, like the one in the Studio an then I realized I was $$$$ in the hole and I hadn't even bought a $$$$ tone arm, a $$$$ cart or a $$$$ table. It'd be nice if it was a bit more settled like everyone is with the HD800,HD650,HE-6,Stax-something and the UERM.
5: You sure can get a lot of table for $$: My AT440MLA w/ Technics SL-1200 Mk II sounds pretty great out of the TCC-750. And with the power mod, I bet it'd sound even better. I wonder if I'd like a MC cart like the Denon 103R even more.
Also, I'm super curious to try a MC cart as I've only tried MM carts. I'm hoping it will be less likely to pop and click which drives me crazy.
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FWIW, I find myself fairly settled on the analog side of things. I do have a tubed phono pre on my mind but that'll be a lengthier project that can wait. My 1200 + 440MLa delivers excellent sound that really puts the spotlight on the source material rather than itself. In that spirit I'm going to focus on finding that content and enjoying it. Crazy right?
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Actually, all of this testing has made me feel pretty happy with the Rega/Ortofon setup as my main. I am curious about the sound of a tube preamp and an MC cart though.
The number one thing I'd like to change is to have less pops and clicks with my records. I have a little cleaning brush but it seems to do nothing.
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The weakness of the 2M Black is that it tends to accentuate surface noise. Otherwise, great cart. I really liked mine while I was using it.
Once you have enough records to justify the expense a vacuum type cleaning system like Nitty Gritty or VPI 16.5 is no brainer and will make every record you own better in terms of surface noise and dynamics. In the meantime, find someone local who has one and borrow it! ;)
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So I've been testing a bunch of things and trying to figure it out. Unfortunately, changing vinyl setups is a ton of work and most of the stuff I have is low-money, which can sound awesome, but it means I'm only hearing a small section of what's available. But, I've come to conclusions.
1: All of the preamps I've tried (including an EC preamp) have noticeable noise floor when I turn up the volume to some normal but louder listening volumes (gonna guess somewhere between 70 and 90db). This is when I haven't plugged in the table yet. Maybe there's a better way to solve it.
3: Preamps make a bigger difference to vinyl's sound than amps, though I'd say on par with DACs, having recently compared a bunch of amps recently
4: Marv is right, it seems like there isn't a consistent upgrade path, there are like 4 going in different directions. In fact, I was thinking of how a tube preamp might sound and I thought to get the resolution I'd need, I'd probably want a great transformer, like the one in the Studio an then I realized I was $$$$ in the hole and I hadn't even bought a $$$$ tone arm, a $$$$ cart or a $$$$ table. It'd be nice if it was a bit more settled like everyone is with the HD800,HD650,HE-6,Stax-something and the UERM.
5: You sure can get a lot of table for $$: My AT440MLA w/ Technics SL-1200 Mk II sounds pretty great out of the TCC-750. And with the power mod, I bet it'd sound even better. I wonder if I'd like a MC cart like the Denon 103R even more.
Also, I'm super curious to try a MC cart as I've only tried MM carts. I'm hoping it will be less likely to pop and click which drives me crazy.
I'm going to guess that at least most of these preamps are using low grade DC wall-wart power supplies? Good power is critical for a quiet phonostage. These things have to apply 30-60+dB of gain to a tiny signal, and that's just not easy to do, especially with a $10 wall-wart. I wish there was a miracle $100 phono pre, but there just isn't. There's no way to cheat, you just have to do the engineering and spend on parts, and that ultimately costs money. My phono pre, retail, costs about what my turntable retails for. I got mine second hand, but it still wasn't cheap - same price as a Yggdrasil.
Surface noise is a function of the individual cart and its stylus profile, not MM vs MC. The 2M Black's Shibata is NOT a forgiving stylus, either of VTA or of surface cleanliness. Get yourself a good record cleaning machine, they are absolutely worth it. A brush and a bit of cleaning fluid is simply no substitute.
(http://audiorevelation.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/Insigh-tinsidet.jpg)
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I definitely have enough records at this point (~200 or so and ever growing), so it's probably time to invest in a cleaner. I'll give the Nitty Gritty/VPI a look. Thanks!
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Actually, all of this testing has made me feel pretty happy with the Rega/Ortofon setup as my main. I am curious about the sound of a tube preamp and an MC cart though.
The number one thing I'd like to change is to have less pops and clicks with my records. I have a little cleaning brush but it seems to do nothing.
So at the Chang meet, you were really impressed with the 1200+AT440MLA+750 Phono+LPS enough to ask about them relative to your rig. The only two variables you haven't been able to compare are the LPS and the Studio amp that we were using. Maybe one or both were the big differences you were hearing. We should definitely do a side by side of your rig versus OJs in the future.
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Maybe one or both were the big differences you were hearing. We should definitely do a side by side of your rig versus OJs in the future.
Yeah, I'd totally be up for that. I wonder if could even get my 1200/440MLA setup to sound better than it did. I was careful in setting that up, but I that was my first time messing with my vinyl rig. My Rega/Ortofon was setup for me where I bought it.
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OK, here it is, my Garrard 401 named the "washing machine" (big, white and weighting a slick 100kgr+ stand included). Unit was bought NOS, plinth was designed, CNC cut and built by me, made from Blatic birch ply sitting on top of a solid limestone block, fitted with a Kuzma Stogi/ ZYX 1000 Airy 3 LX and my favorite tonearm, SAEC 308L with Denon 102 mono (other carts and tonearms come and go). The motor controller sits inside the stand (board designed by Nigel @ Lencoheaven, fitted with oversized transformers for a 0.03% weighted wow/flutter, amazing measurement for an idler).
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NOW THAT is what I call a build! It looks absolutely mesmerizing and I bet that plinth gives the turntable a superb platform to build upon. Beautifully executed...I doubt that can be easily replicated :) Wow/Flutter measurements are astonishing. Well done!!
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Wow I thought the SAEC 308L was a SME 3012 because they look so similar. Is there a story there?
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Does anyone have an AMB Sigma11 they want to sell me? Recent postings have me thinking the TCC 750 really is the smart purchase for dad's phono pre provided I can get a decent power supply.
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Does anyone have an AMB Sigma11 they want to sell me? Recent postings have me thinking the TCC 750 really is the smart purchase for dad's phono pre provided I can get a decent power supply.
If you can't get a hold of a builder/seller let me know.
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If you can't get a hold of a builder/seller let me know.
Will do. I appreciate the reply. Sent an email to YMB, will wait a few days for a response.
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Wow I thought the SAEC 308L was a SME 3012 because they look so similar. Is there a story there?
Nice catch Chris. The Saec was in fact inspired by the classic SME ( which I also have in my collection) but built quality is way way better. It uses a double knife edge bearing and a unique to this tonearm geometry with offset angle as low as 11°. Picks most of the tracking distortion in the outer grooves where it's less important and minimizes in the inner grooves with close null points. The built quality is really out of this world and soundwise it is my favorite arm. When I found it I made sure to buy all possible extras including original headshell, 4 combinations of counterweights, stabilizing weight and even the stock cable from Saec. If you ever come across one do not hesitate to pull the trigger.
@Shaizada tnx for the nice words, the washing machine sounds as good as it looks and has been my reference for a few years now. Have also designed and built a belt drive TT but the sound is somewhat more flat while the 401 has this intrinsic coloration and full bodied sound that people are so fond of. In the not so distant future I plan on upgrading my Kuzma stogi to a 4point and that should be it for my analog rig for years (said the man who never stops upgrading...)
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So... what's up with all these super high-end turntables with multiple motors? Can someone tell me what's the idea behind this?
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The multiple motors have advantages and disadvantages. They are somewhat more expensive to implement properly, but the prevailing notion is that they offer more torque, better speed stability, less cogging effects (with use of high quality power supplies/regulators) etc. If not managed, some disadvantages are higher costs and more noise. Intelligent engineering can maximize advantages and minimize negatives.
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Supposedly Technics is going to release a new turntable next year. I just ran across this brief mention:
http://gizmodo.com/technics-will-release-a-new-turntable-in-2016-1728255692?utm_campaign=socialflow_gizmodo_facebook&utm_source=gizmodo_facebook&utm_medium=socialflow
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Non-cogging direct drive. That'll shut a lot of people up. Or not... popcorn popcorn popcorn
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$5000
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$5000
If an true SL1200 were to be built today it would cost more than a VPI p:/
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Craig has a TOTL Sony direct drive table - the model right before they released their linear tracking tables. Similar to SL1200, but with fancy high-tech arm that auto adjusts everything (typical Sony of yesteryear) and heavier platter and plinth. It was $3000 in the 80s. That would be $10K today.
VPI's most expensive table is $30K and direct drive. Uses a $4k (supposedly their cost) special motor from an outfit in Ventura, CA.
(http://www.soundstagedirect.com/media/vpi_direct_drive_updated.jpg)
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So why aren't linear trackers more prevalent? You'd think with the tech available today and potential convenience and ease of use they'd be brilliant. Vendors like the margins on pivots and audiophiles are fearful of messing up their records? Or is it the constant coupling of the tonearm to a gear or motor?
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Probably cost and added complexity. Also the longer arms won't have as much tracking error (although there seems to be a huge disproportionate price increase to length.) If you take a look at the VPI JMV unipivot arms, you realize the simplicity of its construction. It's essentially a metal stick resting on top of a needle point pivot. Hint to Schiit...
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So a tiny spindle bearing. Is it possible to have a single arm long enough to compensate for IGD and forego the various alignment 'standards'?
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I suspect inner groove "distortion" is more a matter of bad cart alignment, records ruined by bad cart alignment, incapable styli, or the inner grooves moving at less linear velocity (and information being more tightly packed) than the outer grooves.
Here's a good article that our resident Hydrogen Audio friend OJ would appreciate: http://www.stereophile.com/reference/arc_angles_optimizing_tonearm_geometry/index.html (http://www.stereophile.com/reference/arc_angles_optimizing_tonearm_geometry/index.html)
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Craig has a TOTL Sony direct drive table - the model right before they released their linear tracking tables. Similar to SL1200, but with fancy high-tech arm that auto adjusts everything (typical Sony of yesteryear) and heavier platter and plinth. It was $3000 in the 80s. That would be $10K today.
VPI's most expensive table is $30K and direct drive. Uses a $4k (supposedly their cost) special motor from an outfit in Ventura, CA.
(http://www.soundstagedirect.com/media/vpi_direct_drive_updated.jpg)
Can you find out what Sony model he has? Is it a PS-X series table?
Another turntable I own is a Sony PS-X700 Bio Tracer....so curious about what he is running. It is a very trick tonearm!
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7247/13336038963_a16c39548a_b.jpg)
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3734/13336411434_9144f2e167_b.jpg)
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Yup, that's it. Biotracer.
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So why aren't linear trackers more prevalent? You'd think with the tech available today and potential convenience and ease of use they'd be brilliant. Vendors like the margins on pivots and audiophiles are fearful of messing up their records? Or is it the constant coupling of the tonearm to a gear or motor?
A good linear tracker is not as easy as you might think. Fremer has written about the potential problems with linear tracking arms on numerous occasions. For example:
"One problem facing designers of linear arms is how to drag the arm's mass laterally across the record surface. Another is how to route the wires from the sliding arm to a fixed termination point without impeding the arm's freedom of movement. Noisy, tweaky, motor-driven servo systems have been used on a number of linear designs both ambitious (Rabco, Goldmund, B&O) and low-tech (plastic turntables from many mainstream manufacturers). But even the best of these require the loss of tangency to signal the servo correction system to move the arm along the track. The correction inevitably overshoots or undercorrects to some degree; the result is an arm that wiggles its way across the record, creating potentially greater tracking errors—and more of them—than you'll find with a properly set-up pivoted arm. The ideal is for the cartridge's cantilever to maintain perpendicularity to a radial line drawn across the grooves. This can probably never be achieved by servo-type linear designs, even if, from afar, they look as if they are, and even if many audiophiles remain loyal enthusiasts.
An upgraded iteration of the Souther linear-tracking arm, built and currently marketed by Clearaudio, uses a different scheme. A very short, low-mass rod rides on wheels along a pair of low-friction quartz rails. Discussion of the design tradeoffs is best left to a full review, but I remain skeptical about this arm's ability to maintain true tangency to the grooves as it rides the rails.
The virtually frictionless air-bearing designs originally produced by Maplenoll and Eminent Technology were both designed by Eminent's Bruce Thigpen. In these arms, the bearing is fixed; it's the rail that moves, with the armtube attached to it. Eminent still sells its ET2 arm; a heavily modified edition of the original Maplenoll design can be found on Walker Audio's Proscenium Gold turntable.
Finally, a number of air-bearing designs use a fixed rail and move the bearing, which has the considerable advantage of moving a far lower mass across the record surface. Included among these are the Versa Dynamics and Forsell (neither any longer in production), and the Airtangent, Rockport, V.Y.G.E.R., and, now, the Kuzma Air Line. These designs vary in bearing mechanics and air flow, as well as in overall build quality and ergonomics.
In conventional pivoted arms the arm/cartridge system moves vertically and horizontally around a common point; thus, horizontal and vertical effective masses are very similar. In linear trackers there is a big difference between the effective vertical and horizontal masses. Being a pivoted system in the vertical axis, a linear tracker's effective vertical mass is low because it consists of the relatively short armtube and cartridge. Horizontal mass is much larger: it includes the entire arm/sleeve assembly as well as the cartridge, all of which must be carried across the record and which do not benefit from being a pivoted system.
"Hang a small weight on the end of a spring and it bounces at a fairly high frequency over a short distance. Put a bigger weight on the spring and the rate of movement slows while the excursion length increases. The high mass of a linear-tracking arm in the horizontal axis can create a very nasty low-frequency resonance. The eccentricities due to the off-center pressing of virtually every LP made will excite this resonance as the system moves back and forth trying to track the shifting groove."
The Kuzma sounds absolutely incredible, but if somebody gave me the choice of a free Durand Telos pivoted arm or a free Kuzma Airline, I'd take the Durand. It's one of the best sounding pivoted arms in the world, the best that I can remember hearing at least, and using the Kuzma is a giant pain in the ass. Tracking errors from a properly set 12" arm are minimal, and the annoyances for an air bearing linear tracker are IMO not worth it.
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...The Kuzma sounds absolutely incredible, but if somebody gave me the choice of a free Durand Telos pivoted arm or a free Kuzma Airline, I'd take the Durand. It's one of the best sounding pivoted arms in the world, the best that I can remember hearing at least, and using the Kuzma is a giant pain in the ass. Tracking errors from a properly set 12" arm are minimal, and the annoyances for an air bearing linear tracker are IMO not worth it.
I respectfully disagree based upon my personal experience in setting up AND using the Kuzma Airline tonearm. It is a worry free and trouble free experience, a real pleasure to use as it is just so well engineered and built. I am saying this after setting up the WHOLE turntable from scratch, setting up the pump/compressor and ensuring the proper air pressure at the tonearm end. It is absolutely NO trouble to use at all.
I will have to check out the Durand Telos at some point...if I like it, damn....I know where this rabbit hole goes! In through my wallet and out the big hole at the other end!
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I respectfully disagree based upon my personal experience in setting up AND using the Kuzma Airline tonearm. It is a worry free and trouble free experience, a real pleasure to use as it is just so well engineered and built. I am saying this after setting up the WHOLE turntable from scratch, setting up the pump/compressor and ensuring the proper air pressure at the tonearm end. It is absolutely NO trouble to use at all.
I will have to check out the Durand Telos at some point...if I like it, damn....I know where this rabbit hole goes! In through my wallet and out the big hole at the other end!
My experience with the Airline is admittedly very limited, but from what I recall, it was incredibly finicky, didn't like records that weren't uniformly thick, and required constant, constant re-leveling. Basically, play a record, re-level. That's just not something that I'm willing to deal with on a regular basis. I suppose it's possible that something was off with the setup and that's what was causing it to misbehave more than it should.
As far as pivoted arms go, as I said, I have yet to experience anything better than the Telos. It's incredible, and I would put it up against any arm at any price, regardless of bearing type or design. Graham, MØRCH, Da Vinci Audio Labs, and a few others also make exceptionally good pivoted arms, and some of them do certain things better than the Durand like VTA adjustment, but sound wise I think it's in a class by itself.
(http://www.inthouse.ru/vinil/NEW%20TURNTABLE/Tonearms/Durand%20Tonearms%20Telos.jpg)
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Wood arm...most curious...
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Wood arm...most curious...
Yup. Joël Durand started making arms for himself by hand, and wood was the easiest thing to make them out of. It's funny, his approach is pretty much the exact opposite of ultra high-tech carbo-tanium or other super fancy composite materials that other companies use for their arm wands, and yet the end result is still better. He was asked about it in an interview:
"At first, it was just a practical matter. Because I started with such primitive means, wood was the easiest material to obtain and work with. I also early on developed the idea that the arm wand’s role in the transmission of mechanical forces was fairly similar to the role of the bow used on string instruments. I researched musical instrument construction and discovered some interesting similarities that reinforced my decision to use wood. I’m regularly asked why I offer only one type of wood for the arm wand. It’s simply because it’s the one that gives the best results for what I want to hear, and considering the rest of the whole tonearm system. These of course are two very significant reasons: I know what I want to hear, and I don’t claim that my choice is the best one for all situations. The wood I ended up choosing happens to “mate” extremely well with the metals I use in the base, the way they are shaped, etc. It might not work as well in another design, with different materials, who knows? Another essential aspect of the arm wand is the wood finish—a mixture that I make myself. It’s used for the protection of the wood and to maintain its stability in various atmospheric environments, but it also has a very important impact on the sound.
Going back to the question of the wood itself, I had a number of meetings with professors in the department of Materials Science at the University of Washington, because I was curious to understand exactly why the woods I had experimented with had such different sound characteristics. After analyzing them, I discovered which parameters were important (and which were not so important) for their use as arm wands, and verified that my intuitions about the similarities with instruments were correct. I am not committed forever to the idea of using wood, though. I’m still experimenting, and if I find materials that perform better, I’ll switch."
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Wood strikes me as a really good choice for low volume production tonearms. I won't pretend to know any of the actual parameters but it intuitively makes sense to me that the right wood can be stiff enough to maintain compliance while still having good absorption properties not ringing like metal.
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On the new Technics tangent here is some info direct from Panasonic about the new motor:
http://news.panasonic.com/press/news/data/2015/09/en150903-3/en150903-3.html
Kind of looks like they are going for an updated SP10 with a badass motor and speed controller like the VPI DD. I'm hoping the Panasonic economics of scale will get the pricing down to the 5-10K level (with performance like the VPI DD :-DD) because that would be all kinds of awesome.
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On the new Technics tangent here is some info direct from Panasonic about the new motor:
http://news.panasonic.com/press/news/data/2015/09/en150903-3/en150903-3.html
Kind of looks like they are going for an updated SP10 with a badass motor and speed controller like the VPI DD. I'm hoping the Panasonic economics of scale will get the pricing down to the 5-10K level (with performance like the VPI DD :-DD) because that would be all kinds of awesome.
Idiots, they could have just used a rubber band and DC motor from ratshack
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Idiots, they could have just used a rubber band and DC motor from ratshack
You can find some old accessory belts in an auto graveyard instead.
Perhaps used condoms and a pair of scissors?
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Craig ended up getting a Maplenoll with the linear tracking arm, lead platter, and air bearings from a friend of his for $250. (His friend kept the VPI HR-X with the idler drive).
He might be interested in selling his Sony PSX700 biotracer table. Just keeping you guys posted. Craig has to rig up a compressed air system first before he can use the Maplenoll.
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I have the interest!
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I have the interest!
Ok you are first in line. I'll get a price and availability date.
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Okay, after lifting a record off of my basic bitch VPI mat and hearing all the static discharges, I really need to get something a little better. Recommendations?
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Dude finds this in the garbage....
https://www.reddit.com/r/vintageaudio/comments/3kz2ef/todays_garbage_pile_find_ar_the_turntable_with/
:-0 facepalm :'(
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Okay, after lifting a record off of my basic bitch VPI mat and hearing all the static discharges, I really need to get something a little better. Recommendations?
Get rid of the mat completely? (Don't know if you can do that - don't forget to adjust VTA and VTF)
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Dude finds this in the garbage....
https://www.reddit.com/r/vintageaudio/comments/3kz2ef/todays_garbage_pile_find_ar_the_turntable_with/
:-0 facepalm :'(
Nice, but not exactly like finding a Micro Seiki or Pioneer Series 20 in the garbage.
http://vinylnirvana.com/ar-models/ar-the-turntable/
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I seriously hope Marv's VPI Classic sounds like shit because it matches my desk perfectly. facepalm
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kIYV8biyQQM&list=WL&index=44
:)p8
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XTknyrpWaQs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q-2dfEc70gU
Just sayin'...
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Those Kronos tables are built out of Montreal which is 2 hours away from me.
Next year I'm considering getting one as my "destination" table but I need to hear/look at the other options on my list: VPI Avenger, TechDas AF3 (or used AF2) and definitely what Technics has up their sleeve with the SP10 update they have in the works.
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Those Kronos tables are built out of Montreal which is 2 hours away from me.
Next year I'm considering getting one as my "destination" table but I need to hear/look at the other options on my list: VPI Avenger, TechDas AF3 (or used AF2) and definitely what Technics has up their sleeve with the SP10 update they have in the works.
Can the Kronos fit a 12" arm? One of their tables can't, and I don't remember which one it is. No 12" for me is an immediate disqualifier.
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The big Kronos (Pro) can do 12" arms. The Sparta are limited to 10.5". I don't think I could afford a Pro. The base Sparta is something like 15K without the arm.
I'm not sure of the advantages/disadvantages between 10.5" and 12". In theory better tracking?
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The big Kronos (Pro) can do 12" arms. The Sparta are limited to 10.5". I don't think I could afford a Pro. The base Sparta is something like 15K without the arm.
I'm not sure of the advantages/disadvantages between 10.5" and 12". In theory better tracking?
Much lower tracking distortion, and less susceptibility to variance in VTA from records of different thicknesses due to the increased distance from the pivot point. IME a pivoted 12" arm provides the least compromises of all available arm designs. Tracking distortion won't be "perfect" like a tangential tracker (except at null points where it is perfect), but tangential trackers are rarely ever perfect, at least the ones below the extreme air bearing designs like the Kuzma anyway. And assuming the cartridge was made properly, and the correct alignment was used, the distortion that is there will be low enough to not really matter.
A 10" arm limit on a $15K table IMO is a total fail - my ~$4K Nottingham has the 12" Ace 294 arm made just for it, and everything above mine in the line uses the 12" Ace Anna. I would much rather have a 12" arm on a Spiral Groove or Dr. Feickert than a 10" arm on a Kronos. It costs a couple of hundred bucks more to get a 12" Graham Phantom for example over their 10," and you'll get a MUCH bigger improvement from that upgrade than any record clamp or other tweak for similar money.
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Fair points. Also the Kronos tables don't come with an arm included in the price so I'm really not sure about the value especially compared to something like a VPI Avenger which comes with the excellent 3D arm and you can add 2 more of your choice from any manufacturer with a little bit of work.
BTW I buckled and ordered an Ortofon DS-3 scale from Japan. Too much audiophile nervosa with the Lyra and it's super tight VTF tolerance.