CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Marvey on June 10, 2015, 09:29:43 PM
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Just playing around with stuff. Would prefer a five dimensional arrangement, but collapsed many sound quality aspects down to two dimensions. I would say that I weigh resolution and microdynamics highest, but a combination of many other good qualities may trump the micro-stuff. Moving DAC thread from HF to here.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2500.0;attach=10895;image)
- (1) Only with Empirical Audio Off Ramp via i2s, and preferable with DACLadder HDMI solution. Cheap Chinese Gustard does not cut it. Ciunas is better, gets tone right, but is less resolving.
- (2) Two Lampi Big 5 units were very strident and digital sounding despite tubes. Digital section needs improvement. Has serious potential.
- (3) Tries to fake full-bodied sound, but SABRE digital sound manages to get through.
- (4) Used unit. Left on for at least two days before audition. Several pyrates bore witness to perhaps the nastiest glare ever heard.
- (5) Similar to Invicta, see #3 above, but even more all over the place.
- (6) FRM filter
- (7) Super laid-back, polite, forgiving. k.
- ( 8) Euphonic, but still a bit digital sounding. Difficult to categorize.
- (9) PWD mk1 with upgrade board. New PWD mk2 from factory sounded inferior.
- (10) Delta-sigma digital section much inferior to Yggy. Tube analog output section is clearer and more dynamic.
- (11) Older firmware and 384 USB
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Just to clarify, was that Modi 2 in the chart uber or non-uber? I assume no Wyrd was in the chain?
Thanks!
EDIT, edit: Also, where do you get a USB Gen 3 upgrade for Bifrost/Gungnir? I thought it was only Gen2...
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No Uber, no Wyrd. I'll color code stuff that represents poor / value and perhaps put rankings on them.
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Thanks for this chart! Eager to see it with color codes poor / value! headbang
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Very nice, and more stuff about [REDACTED] is always welcome.
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#TheTruthisOutThere #R2RGungnirTruthers #MultibitMulders
(Also, yeah this chart is excellent.)
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Probably a dozen DACs I need to add. 80% of them were so bad I didn't bother.
(Also, yeah this chart is excellent.)
I figure this chart provides more context. Gotta give Gartner some credit. Will still rank stuff according to my preferences - at least for entertainment. Lots of people helped. Traded a lot of subjective impressions with others, so not a lone project.
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To cut down on "Where would you put XXX"? May want a list of the "Not even on the Chart" DACs. :&
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You're such a tease!
I think I know which one it is, though.
Nice chart, BTW.
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Excellent resource! If I knew how to give brownie points, I would. Thanks!
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This is a cool chart. I like it very much. If I had to guess based on my experiences, the Classe DAC-1 would sit somewhere closer to the top right corner, and the Audial Model S I have (with a good SPDIF converter) would sit at least a few, sizable notches above the Octave but still towards the smoother category.
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Just had a cursory look at the chart early in the am here..I presume the Geek Xfi with FTM would sit approx in the Gungnir box ?
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Thanks Marv, nicely done. I can't find the key to the colors. Might be my iPad doing it's iOSeey thing.
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Just had a cursory look at the chart early in the am here..I presume the Geek Xfi with FTM would sit approx in the Gungnir box ?
no idea. haven't given it a good listen.
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OK made some tweaks. More to come.
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Looking good! I have not heard all the DAC's on the chart but of the ones I have heard I think the chart is pretty much dead on. Although that's IMHO. blah blah and YMMV.
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Red for "Kill it with fire." I like that. :)p2
Also, Bifrost Uber/Gungnir Gen 3?
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This is great. Very helpful indeed
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Amazing chart. I love how simple to understand things like this are, while still communicating everything necessary. Very insightful.
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Red for "Kill it with fire." I like that. :)p2
Also, Bifrost Uber/Gungnir Gen 3?
We are going have to try and be patient. I'm not, but trying. It will happen. Sooner than later I hope. Either that or I buy a Yggy, hope my wife doesn't see the name change from the Gungnir and forgets to look at our bank statement this month. Hey, you only live once. And die once. walk the plank2
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Invicta should be colored red IMHO given its outrageous price.
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So you wouldn't happen to know the price point for this nice blue colored [redacted] would you? In Q3 of course...
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So you wouldn't happen to know the price point for this nice blue colored [redacted] would you? In Q3 of course...
Nothing worse than a DAC tease. :)
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DAC blocked
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DAC blocked
Redacted....Why won't you left me plug into just one of your inputs. SPDIF be would fine. I'd only use 16/44.1. But no, I have to wait until Q3 to see anything. We are all getting blue cables out here! :&
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hello,
thank you very much for this, it really helps put the price/performance ratio in perspective.
now we need someone to do this for amps. p;)
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This is really cool.
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We are going have to try and be patient. I'm not, but trying. It will happen. Sooner than later I hope. Either that or I buy a Yggy, hope my wife doesn't see the name change from the Gungnir and forgets to look at our bank statement this month. Hey, you only live once. And die once. walk the plank2
Real story...took delivery of Yggy nearly four weeks ago...In local currency (Indian Rupee terms) the Yggy's cost is 147,136. 30% tax comes to INR 45,000. I bring the box home from Fedex and my wife sees the customs invoice amount. She goes: " You have two girls and you're spending 45,000 on music equipment... this is egregious spending". I apologize for the amount spent and she goes: "thank God, the equipment does not cost more than 100,000...". I mumble: "Oh this company in California provides the best value for the money...similar equipment costs more than 500,000"...
Got away big time...:)
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I can only hope for a similar outcome.
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LOL Kothganesh.
@Purrin, I know you won't believe me, but with the proper USB2Coax, the Benchmark DAC1 goes one or two notch on the left, and at least 3 or 4 up IMO. Digititus' still there though. Not that it matters, anyway.
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LOL Kothganesh.
@Purrin, I know you won't believe me, but with the proper USB2Coax, the Benchmark DAC1 goes one or two notch on the left, and at least 3 or 4 up IMO. Not that it matters, anyway.
I don't believe Benchmark would think that is objectively possible. :&
As to SPDIF converters making things warmer. That's not a surprise to me. Usually most compromise other things though.
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I don't believe Benchmark would think that is objectively possible. :&
Hahaha yeah Anax, life's full of surprises
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I intentionally avoided mention Wyrd + DAC this time around. Not really fair. Wyrd does improve things 80% of the time. It tends to have more of an effect on lower tier stuff.
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Purr1n,
by lower tier "stuff", I'm assuming you mean DACs and "source computer"?
if so, I'd agree. my crappy 2009 iMac source with a Regen (Green, not Amber yet) into Gungnir was certainly an improvement.
yet I wouldn't call Gung lower tier.
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yet I wouldn't call Gung lower tier.
It will be soon... (I know Jason won't mind me saying it since Darko has already implied such). Hold on to the Regen /Wyrd though. Supposedly M-B Gungnir will not have Gen 3 USB... I surmise (again, totally guessing) that such would make it way too close for comfort to the Yggy.
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Heck, I got Regen Green (no chassis) for tossing around.
Regen Amber (in chassis) will be reserved for the golden child DACs without USB Gen3.
:)p5
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Okay, I've seen some hints at upgraded DACS from Schiit, but this is just making large beads of sweat pop out on my forehead. Is there an announcement soon?
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Word on the street is upcoming meets on the West Coast might have Schiit reveals, and possibly RMAF. Jason is being much more cautious after the Rag/Yggy premature announcement. The best answer is that products will be revealed when they're ready, and not a minute earlier.
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^^ I understand but that's for regular people...not me.
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Nicely done Marv.
Can't wait to see more DACs in there.
This will be extremely helpful when I decide to upgrade from the Modi Uber! :p
Thanks.
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This <redacted> DAC is getting me all hot and bothered 8)
I've already shelled out for the Yggy though so I don't have as much to think about.
Would this be a conclusive statement that the GOv2 outperforms the Bifrost Uber Gen 3(?) ?
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Good job. I was wondering though this could also work for amps and headphones right? Perhaps you or someone else can rig up some interactive visual database to discern sound sigs at a glance. Then provide more in depth information with measurements and such when you click on one of the components. Could be a great tool for matching components and tuning your system to your liking.
I know it's probably a mamoth undertaking but i reckon it can be a very helpful tool to lots of people.
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Great chart. Excellent choice of x/y axis IMO and I like the color coded "bang for buck". Appreciate all the work that wen't into it.
I have a Yggdrasil but I'm super stoked for [redacted]. If it is as good as the chart suggests it will be a great day for music lovers cause the price/performance bar is going to get completely annihilated. They are going to sell a schiitton of those if it's 90% as good as Yggy at ~1/3rd the price. Hell, I will probably pick one up myself for my office setup.
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Have anyone here heard a Mark Levinson No 36. Its a old dac from around 1992. Just found a deal on it, but i cant demo it. Considering your guys really like the theta and SF's im wondering what you guys think of this one.
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Nice chart. If a picture is worth a thousand words, this is worth at least forty-six pictures :)
Thank you.
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Big job that takes a lot of time and effort, thank you for sharing it.
-na
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Any place for Emotiva's DC-1?
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Is there anyone in socal who owns this Yggdrasil dac? I'd love to get together and listen to it. We can also compare with the EAR Dacute and Chord QBD76HDSD (sounds completely different compared to the Hugo!). Please PM if this interests you as I am curious about it and hopefully you are too :)
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Very clever representation of how DACs sound, looks like most of modern DAC's "play" on the right hand side. It seems that we need more reasonably priced/currently produced DACs on the left middle-top side, to give us "flavors" to choose from. That <redacted> is very intriguing. 8)
Would love to see "Best Amps for Sennheiser HD800" converted to something like this chart. ahoy
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<redacted>
(http://i2.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/786/188/4d7.gif)
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The sinful dwarf gif has utterly killed my boner for <redacted>. From now on whenever I think of something I cannot have, I will come here.
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Changstar is too damn good...just didn't realize HOW good! I posted a request a couple of posts ago and within 10 mins or so of posting it, I had a local owner reach out to me and offer to bring it over for a listen. Un-bloody-believable! p:8 :)p1
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In all seriousness, this is extremely helpful and will be the basis of many discussions and replies to those asking advice.
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Absolutely, I'll probably do a write up and post some listening impressions.
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Not that much work. About the time I knew my days were numbered at my old place of work, I jotted this down just to see if the idea would work.
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Not that much work. About the time I knew my days were numbered at my old place of work, I jotted this down just to see if the idea would work.
Looks like you tore the page off with some urgency ;)
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Changstar is too damn good...just didn't realize HOW good! I posted a request a couple of posts ago and within 10 mins or so of posting it, I had a local owner reach out to me and offer to bring it over for a listen. Un-bloody-believable! p:8 :)p1
That's awesome and a little scary. I turned mine off for 2 days once and when I listened later it sounded waaaay worse cold than it did out of the box. Took at least another two days to return to bliss. FYI, YMMV.
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That's awesome and a little scary. I turned mine off for 2 days once and when I listened later it sounded waaaay worse cold than it did out of the box. Took at least another two days to return to bliss. FYI, YMMV.
Oh no...don't tell me that! damn it...that won't really work in our situation...the owner doesn't know me well enough yet (we haven't even met), but maybe.....MAYBE maybe, he might be willing to leave it for a few days. That is asking too much, but I will mention it to him. When something this fascinating can happen within 10 minutes of posting, it might NOT be too far fetched of an idea when it comes to Changstar folks. I'll leave that up to him, but it would be a good idea to get a real understanding of what the Yggdarsil is capable of doing. 2 days to settle in makes things much harder logistically...
I was also thinking of just purchasing the piece and doing the home demo, but my wife would probably strangle me if I even suggest such a thing! I JUST bought a new preamp and turntable setup that has been charged but not delivered yet ;) Damn 1st world problems...lol
One of my best audio friends owns a top of the line Total Dac D1 which I also like a lot (also a purchase I had been contemplating..) Would be great to see how deep the Yggdrasil rabbit hole goes if we can ever get a chance to compare it there as well... oh well.
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Long time lurker, first time post here. I find the chart very interesting without too many surprises. I am curious why the iDSD nano was found to be so terrible. I haven't heard it but I recently owned the iDSD Micro (which may be much better?)
Some background for context:
I recently owned at the same time, iDSD Micro, Resonessence Labs Concero HP (4v HP out on Y-splitter) and the standard Schiit Modi on USB battery. I thought the iDSD Micro was great at it's price point, though in comparison to the other two I found it to have a strange midrange dip or veil. Prior to owning these I used the Concero HP on it's own for quite a while with my HD800, while my then broken EC Super 7 collected dust. I finally got it repaired and then performed one of the Cap mods from another thread here (Jantzen Silver on interstage, Superior on feedback) And then a strange thing happened. While only at first comparing the Concero and iDSD, I decided to throw the Modi + Battery into the mix and found myself actually preferring it overall to the other ones, and that's with the very revealing amp. So I ended up selling the other 2 more expensive ones and drop the money in savings toward eventually getting an Yggy.
Though I did end up getting an iFi iUSB to use with the Modi, since I already had their Gemini cable and purifier line filter. Plus I figure I can try it with the Yggy when it comes time. That being said, I thought the iDSD Micro was still pretty decent, but perhaps there's a big gap between it and the Nano. The iFi house sound could end up being one of those "beyond classification" things for some people.
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Oh no...don't tell me that! damn it...that won't really work in our situation...the owner doesn't know me well enough yet (we haven't even met), but maybe.....MAYBE maybe, he might be willing to leave it for a few days. That is asking too much, but I will mention it to him. When something this fascinating can happen within 10 minutes of posting, it might NOT be too far fetched of an idea when it comes to Changstar folks. I'll leave that up to him, but it would be a good idea to get a real understanding of what the Yggdarsil is capable of doing. 2 days to settle in makes things much harder logistically...
I was also thinking of just purchasing the piece and doing the home demo, but my wife would probably strangle me if I even suggest such a thing! I JUST bought a new preamp and turntable setup that has been charged but not delivered yet ;) Damn 1st world problems...lol
One of my best audio friends owns a top of the line Total Dac D1 which I also like a lot (also a purchase I had been contemplating..) Would be great to see how deep the Yggdrasil rabbit hole goes if we can ever get a chance to compare it there as well... oh well.
Don't be too shocked if this person let's you keep it a few days. People here are very generous.
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Can't speak to others, but a midrange veil on a DAC would be an instant no-go for me. I don't think I've ever recommended a DAC with such a character.
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Can't speak to others, but a midrange veil on a DAC would be an instant no-go for me. I don't think I've ever recommended a DAC with such a character.
Think dull cloud of fuzzy smoke and shit. At least with iFi Nano.
The iFi house sound could end up being one of those "beyond classification" things for some people.
Most likely "beyond redemption". We are a tough crowd here. zdfx gave me his iFi under the condition that I eventually burn it and make a youtube video.
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Can't speak to others, but a midrange veil on a DAC would be an instant no-go for me. I don't think I've ever recommended a DAC with such a character.
Think dull cloud of fuzzy smoke and shit. At least with iFi Nano.
Most likely "beyond redemption". We are a tough crowd here. zdfx gave me his iFi under the condition that I eventually burn it and make a youtube video.
No worries, I'm aware of the honesty here and appreciate it. I'm admittedly lacking experience with much higher end DACs beyond ~$1000 so it's a gradual process to learn my preferences. For instance, I didn't immediately notice the midrange veil until comparing it to the others. And I just found the well powered Modi to have a more natural texture and timbre to the sound, although it does have it's nitpicks that are expected at the price point.
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That's not to say anything about what may be enjoyable to anyone. I think most of us just try to be more objective about our subjective impressions/preferences. For example, I once liked the Eximus as a DAC in a weird euphonic sort of way, Marv hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. Marv liked a particular Luxman DAC and I hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. The problem is we don't want to open up a can of worms where personal subjective preference just makes a mess of audio impressions. Then you start saying everything sounds good because there might be someone somewhere that likes it. Thus nobody can trust or figure out where you are coming from. This is called 'The Guttenberg Effect'.
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That's not to say anything about what may be enjoyable to anyone. I think most of us just try to be more objective about our subjective impressions/preferences. For example, I once liked the Eximus as a DAC in a weird euphonic sort of way, Marv hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. Marv liked a particular Luxman DAC and I hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. The problem is we don't want to open up a can of worms where personal subjective preference just makes a mess of audio impressions. Then you start saying everything sounds good because there might be someone somewhere that likes it. Thus nobody can trust or figure out where you are coming from. This is called 'The Guttenberg Effect'.
Certainly makes sense. It's why I try to provide as much context as possible when I'm making observations, and why I tend to value the opinions here. I may not always share the same preferences, but I can at least get a good idea of observations by their context and the listeners experience.
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:)p17
That's not to say anything about what may be enjoyable to anyone. I think most of us just try to be more objective about our subjective impressions/preferences. For example, I once liked the Eximus as a DAC in a weird euphonic sort of way, Marv hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. Marv liked a particular Luxman DAC and I hated it. Neither of us would recommend it. The problem is we don't want to open up a can of worms where personal subjective preference just makes a mess of audio impressions. Then you start saying everything sounds good because there might be someone somewhere that likes it. Thus nobody can trust or figure out where you are coming from. This is called 'The Guttenberg Effect'.
Agreed. Also we don't take others likes or dislikes personally. If we don't agree we try to find out why. Of course when Anax disagrees with me I just smile and nod my head, knowing I right. :)p17 this is called the " poo effect "
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Apologies if I'm blind but is the Geek Pulse on here? Where does it sit?
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Apologies if I'm blind but is the Geek Pulse on here? Where does it sit?
Currently waiting on a LPS to make a proper comprehensive evaluation. A few have heard the XFI at Canjam driving the Liquid Carbon at Alex's table on that Sunday. Suffice to say, it was brought as a replacement for the Chord Hugo and it did a commendable job according to everyone that heard it. My understanding is that LH has had to resort to slave labor to supply enough LPSs to meet demand.
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+1 Excellent Resource!
I'm guessing my AGD DAC19-DSP sits somewhere between the Octave and Quad (using an OR5 via Coax).
Has anyone heard a Pre-Released Schiit G-2 yet? (The Yggy might be a slight overkill for my HD-650's but I'm sure I'd enjoy it all the same).
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I wonder where my SFD-2 (not SFD-1) MKII SE+ with NOS Telefunken E188CC tubes would be placed on that DAC chart. It doesn't sound particularly warm or gooey, and I personally found it more resolving than the MSB Analog DAC with a wider soundstage.
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I find myself pretty much in agreement with this chart. Nicely done Purrin! :)p1
To note, I have used a good diy power cable on the Benchmark to push it to the left one notch. The Audinst is truly awful and it is funny to think the ifi dsd nano is so close :P.
I am perplexed by the PS Audio PWD 2 new, since I thought it was a bit more left side and lower but I am not sure if I hard an in between change or the latest. The Matrix was moved one notch left by adding a good no powered usb cable in my system. And yes, the Yggy really is just about that spot.
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This is an awesome resource, thanks for sharing.
I was wondering if you auditioned, or plan on auditioning the Aurender Flow? I'm looking for a small transportable DAC to go with the Liquid Carbon and Black Widow. I was a bit underwhelmed with Ifi stuff, and a Hugo is a no go for me. I would love your opinion, no holds barred...
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I find myself pretty much in agreement with this chart. Nicely done Purrin! :)p1
To note, I have used a good diy power cable on the Benchmark to push it to the left one notch. The Audinst is truly awful and it is funny to think the ifi dsd nano is so close :P .
I am perplexed by the PS Audio PWD 2 new, since I thought it was a bit more left side and lower but I am not sure if I hard an in between change or the latest. The Matrix was moved one notch left by adding a good no powered usb cable in my system. And yes, the Yggy really is just about that spot.
The PWD2-new-prod. unit is a tricky one. I've heard of other owners having good experiences with theirs and don't doubt them. It's possible ours could be an oddball unit. Anaxilus tried to contact PSA, there was some talk about the boards, but we never resolved it with them. PWD2-new-prod. has similar tone to the PWD1->2 units (three of them!), but very lean in bass. Recall comparison using the Eagles Hotel CA live (regular CD version), the sub with PWD2 new didn't "pressurize" the room anywhere near the upgraded PWD1->2s. Therefore this is why PWD2-new-prod straddles two blocks extending toward the right.
Also should mention congestion in difficult passages - micro stuff of PWD2-new-prod. is good but still a notch below the upgraded units, but the congestion shifts stuff down significantly. Similar congestion thing with Invicta. The congestion with Invicta kills it despite other good qualities the Invicta possesses. Just explaining this so other people can understand how the DACs were slotted and why PWD2-new-prod and Invicta were punished so much in terms of the technicalities on the vertical scale. There should be little to no reason why DACs, at the small power levels they are putting out, should get congested sounding with complex passages, regardless of price. (We used the refrain section from Tracy Chapman Fast Car to gauge this).
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This is an awesome resource, thanks for sharing.
I was wondering if you auditioned, or plan on auditioning the Aurender Flow? I'm looking for a small transportable DAC to go with the Liquid Carbon and Black Widow. I was a bit underwhelmed with Ifi stuff, and a Hugo is a no go for me. I would love your opinion, no holds barred...
Hahaha. I'll tell you a story. At CanJam, Alex had his Carbons hooked up to the Hugo and CyberLabs brick. Anaxilus was like get this grap outta there because these DACs are POS and won't help you sell anything.
I'd say Geek Out or Modi 2. I think there's a dedicated battery Geek Out v2 to be used purely as a DAC. That would be very interesting.
Haven't heard Aurender Flow. Seems to be a good approach if you want to play back without PC or tablet. I don't like multi-function units. Everything is compromised to do so much at once. Personally, for a transportable unit, I'd find a Windows tablet that can run JRiver or good software, and hook up a small dedicated DAC to the Carbon. The Carbon will scale with better DACs.
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Aurender Flow is not very good. Mediocre at best for the price point. Played with it for some time at Canjam. I like Aurender's home audio stuff a little better. I can't speak to any calculus about price v. performance v. convenience for any individual user though.
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The PWD2-new-prod. unit is a tricky one. I've heard of other owners having good experiences with theirs and don't doubt them. It's possible ours could be an oddball unit. Anaxilus tried to contact PSA, there was some talk about the boards, but we never resolved it with them. PWD2-new-prod. has similar tone to the PWD1->2 units (three of them!), but very lean in bass. Recall comparison using the Eagles Hotel CA live (regular CD version), the sub with PWD2 new didn't "pressurize" the room anywhere near the upgraded PWD1->2s. Therefore this is why PWD2-new-prod straddles two blocks extending toward the right.
Also should mention congestion in difficult passages - micro stuff of PWD2-new-prod. is good but still a notch below the upgraded units, but the congestion shifts stuff down significantly. Similar congestion thing with Invicta. The congestion with Invicta kills it despite other good qualities the Invicta possesses. Just explaining this so other people can understand how the DACs were slotted and why PWD2-new-prod and Invicta were punished so much in terms of the technicalities on the vertical scale. There should be little to no reason why DACs, at the small power levels they are putting out, should get congested sounding with complex passages, regardless of price. (We used the refrain section from Tracy Chapman Fast Car to gauge this).
The one I heard was somewhat better than what you describe in the bass, yet a bit congested in the mids, and actually constrained or rolled sounding in the highs.
Hahaha. I'll tell you a story. At CanJam, Alex had his Carbons hooked up to the Hugo and CyberLabs brick. Anaxilus was like get this grap outta there because these DACs are POS and won't help you sell anything.
That is funny. It is all about synergy. I tried listening to one of Alex's amps at RMAF (2014, I think) And some guy was grooving on a nice pair of cans. I tried and said, What? You actually like this? All I know, is it was a PS Audio perfect something fronting his amp and it was doing no favors to the amp or the cans. I did not mention to the amp maker.
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The one I heard was somewhat better than what you describe in the bass, yet a bit congested in the mids, and actually constrained or rolled sounding in the highs.
That is funny. It is all about synergy. I tried listening to one of Alex's amps at RMAF (2014, I think) And some guy was grooving on a nice pair of cans. I tried and said, What? You actually like this? All I know, is it was a PS Audio perfect something fronting his amp and it was doing no favors to the amp or the cans. I did not mention to the amp maker.
It's likely the same DAC. PS Audio Perfectwave DAC mk2=PWD mk2. What's also interesting is the PWDmk2 that we compared to our mk1>mk2s was actually Alex's and might be the same one you heard at RMAF if it's was used with Alex's gear.
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Don't be too shocked if this person let's you keep it a few days. People here are very generous.
Well it happened today :) The owner brought over the Schiit Yggdrasil dac and we switched it out very very carefully into the audio rack.
First off, I have to give the owner some well deserved respect. Completely down to earth, humble, calm and collected personality. Very knowledgeable and just a down right first rate pirate. So SO pleased to have met him, thanks to this forum.
The dac has replaced an EAR Dacute in the audio rack and we both agreed that it needs some time to settle into the system and come into the proper temperature range for a truer understanding of what it sounds like.
First impressions, I am just super happy that the Yggdrasil doesn't "sound" like the super cool and fantastic quality casework. It is a full bodied, harmonically complete and full range sound. I really like what I'm hearing...a few "issues" I am having should get addressed with a nice run in.
Yes, the owner completely on his OWN, offered to leave the dac for a few days. In fact, he agreed to revisit in a few days to come for another listening session once it has settled in AND leave it for another few days for me to listen and decide with. I mean...I don't have words...only sometimes you come across people like this in your life. I'm so grateful to Changstar for bringing people like this onboard. I'm beginning to understand what true "pirates" can be....thank you.
Here is the dac sitting comfortably in the rack.
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/353/18594694260_cc5574cb10_b.jpg)
Will compare with EAR Dacute and the Chord QBD76HDSD (which sounds very different from the Hugo TT, QBD76 and QBD76HD...I didn't really like the Hugo or Hugo TT sound signature).
I'll post more later.
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Well it happened today :) The owner brought over the Schiit Yggdrasil dac and we switched it out very very carefully into the audio rack.
First off, I have to give the owner some well deserved respect. Completely down to earth, humble, calm and collected personality. Very knowledgeable and just a down right first rate pirate. So SO pleased to have met him, thanks to this forum.
The dac has replaced an EAR Dacute in the audio rack and we both agreed that it needs some time to settle into the system and come into the proper temperature range for a truer understanding of what it sounds like.
First impressions, I am just super happy that the Yggdrasil doesn't "sound" like the super cool and fantastic quality casework. It is a full bodied, harmonically complete and full range sound. I really like what I'm hearing...a few "issues" I am having should get addressed with a nice run in.
Yes, the owner completely on his OWN, offered to leave the dac for a few days. In fact, he agreed to revisit in a few days to come for another listening session once it has settled in AND leave it for another few days for me to listen and decide with. I mean...I don't have words...only sometimes you come across people like this in your life. I'm so grateful to Changstar for bringing people like this onboard. I'm beginning to understand what true "pirates" can be....thank you.
Looking at all the gear in that pic, I can see why he wouldn't mind coming back for another listen or 20. :)p3 :)p7
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Your gear list and pic... :-DD
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Thank you for the awesome chart, it is very insightful!
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I think the chart will be particularly helpful to new DAC buyers as an interesting way of presenting the available tonal differences between DAC's
I am now breaking in an Audio-GD Master 7 using the Tanly XMOS DDC, i2S via HDMI.. this seems to me very detailed but I have never compared to the OR5..
I think this combination would perhaps qualify for the blue "Good Value" award.. and thus offer a good value to someone looking for a DAC to the warmer side of the chart..
link for the Tanly DDC
http://tw.taobao.com/item/40193288881.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a1z0k.7385961.1997985097.d4918997.gP8xeX&_u=81d7eit64f3
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Oh [redacted], why do you taunt me....
Any hints on when there will be [unredacted]? Weeks, months, years?
And should a Gungnir/X-Sabre shopper hold off?
...or should this be its own topic?
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Is this chart for best DAC under 5K or Ygg is best irrespective of price.
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there is no such thing as best ;D
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Is this chart for best DAC under 5K or Ygg is best irrespective of price.
The Bricasti costs nearly $10K....
Plus we've commented many times on the MSB platinum+diamond+mithril+admantium version losing to the Yggy in many respects. We've just never had one in house to A/B directly to include in the chart, but we've heard it enough in other setups and rigs to know what it can and can't do.
Nothing out there paints a more realistic sonic picture in the digital domain. You might get a DAC with a hyper analog or tube section that has better crystal clarity or blackness but they will all sound either more digital or euphonically colored without the same level of transparency to the recorded master.
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there is no such thing as best :)p13
There is a best. (I had $10K saved up for a DAC.) But what may be best for me may not be best for you. Hence a two dimensional plot. Again, I'd rather go for four or five dimensions and plot various sonic aspects on a tesseract, but most people would be confused.
For those who want a warmer more relaxing sound, get Yggy and some capacitors, or plug in a Chinese tube buffer. I know Jason and Moffat are horrified at this thought, but it might save you $5000 or more.
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What where the original dimensions of the plot gonna be?
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Have anyone here heard a Mark Levinson No 36. Its a old dac from around 1992. Just found a deal on it, but i cant demo it. Considering your guys really like the theta and SF's im wondering what you guys think of this one.
No. 36 is very different than the Gen V and SF DACs. Very warm, very syrupy. Not loads of detail. No. 360/S is a much better DAC if you're after a Levinson. 30.6 is the best of them all, but the prices are beyond stupid, and they are very difficult to service.
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Yeah, a lot of those big names (Wadia too) went toward that direction. Warm, syrupy, even thick, slow, muddy. At best what I wuold call "euphonic dead." A lot of audiophiles like that kind of sound. Viva Egoista 845 tends toward that.
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This chart is amazing. (And makes me feel better about owning a humble Uberfrost)
Thanks for putting it all together!
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Yeah, a lot of those big names (Wadia too) went toward that direction. Warm, syrupy, even thick, slow, muddy. At best what I wuold call "euphonic dead." A lot of audiophiles like that kind of sound. Viva Egoista 845 tends toward that.
No. 36 is very different than the Gen V and SF DACs. Very warm, very syrupy. Not loads of detail. No. 360/S is a much better DAC if you're after a Levinson. 30.6 is the best of them all, but the prices are beyond stupid, and they are very difficult to service.
Thanks. The reason i asked was because it was passed down by my dad, and i was thinking of changing to the Yggy. As it is now, my Franco Serblin Accordo is pretty bright already and id like them warmer with a less aggressive top end, i guess the DAC is not the chain that needs changing.
Thanks =) Anyone here knows warm sounding 6922's?
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I'm surprised to see that the Modi 2 is a noticeable step up over the first Modi. I've never heard the first one, but for some reason I was under the impression that they sounded basically the same...
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I'll never be able to afford the Ygg. Glad to know that Gungnir is in the same half of the universe.
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I'm surprised to see that the Modi 2 is a noticeable step up over the first Modi. I've never heard the first one, but for some reason I was under the impression that they sounded basically the same...
Nope. Different league.
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I'm surprised to see that the Modi 2 is a noticeable step up over the first Modi. I've never heard the first one, but for some reason I was under the impression that they sounded basically the same...
USB power. Modi 1 needed Wyrd to avoid sounding thin, weak, grainy, and unfocused. With Wyrd, Modi 1 improves significantly. I didn't bother with the Wyrd factor in the graph. Too many variables. For example, supposedly the Hugo shifts to the left and jumps upward 13 spaces with the Wyrd. I'm surprised Chord hasn't hired Jason and Moffat yet to do their USB properly.
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Nope. Different league.
That's really cool. Modi 2 is such a great deal.
USB power. Modi 1 needed Wyrd to avoid sounding thin, weak, grainy, and unfocused. With Wyrd, Modi 1 improves significantly. I didn't bother with the Wyrd factor in the graph. Too many variables. For example, supposedly the Hugo shifts to the left and jumps upward 13 spaces with the Wyrd. I'm surprised Chord hasn't hired Jason and Moffat yet to do their USB properly.
Ahhh, interesting.
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Pirates,
I am currently listening to a well burned in Yggdarsil. I was about to post some comparative impressions, but I want to make it more fun. Also wanted to give a chance to any pirates in the LA or Orange County area for a chance to listen to what I am hearing within the context of the system it is being heard in.
I have formed some opinions at this point but I was hoping for some possible healthy discussion after hearing the dac within the current system context.
We can do some listening and then possibly discuss over dinner somewhere locally (or if the wife is up for it, some home cooked North Indian meal...no promises on that. Also no obligation to eat!).
Now, this listening session needs to happen asap within the next few days (sorry for the short notice BUT I want to get the dac back to its original owner ASAP). He has been way to gracious and I don't want to overstep my bounds which in my mind I already have by keeping the dac for a few days already.
If there is any interest in this home listening session, please post here. I'd love to have more, but I would think 6 people at absolute maximum for now. It is not a very large listening room and there is basically one main listening chair where the system as been tuned for.
Open to Able Bodied Sailors only please (these tend to be people that are already vetted out for the moment and I feel a little more comfortable inviting into my home). If you are NOT ABS, but I know you from before or anywhere else, just PM me. The main listening rig is a speaker rig, but if you also want a headphone listening station, I can set it up. I don't have any nice fancy headphone amps anymore, but I have a Ray Samuels B52 and Sennheiser HD600, HD650 and HD800 on hand if needed.
I'm located in Anaheim Hills in Orange County. Right next to Yorba Linda at the 91 and 55 freeways, Imperial exit. I will privately message the first 6 ABS pirates who want to show up so we can decide the date and time and what works.
Should be a fun learning experience for all! Feel free to bring your own music.
I have two speaker rigs setup, by the way. So we can distribute and take turns listening to 2 systems in areas of the home.
Cheers!
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Maybe put myself and OJ down. But I think we'd be more curious to hear your analog rigs in comparison to the Yggy. I don't think I'd want to take spots away from people who haven't heard an Yggy yet since I already own one.
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Sounds good. I think with 2 systems, we can get a few more people in as well. Lets go for 8 people total. The second system can seat more people and we can simply rotate. I'll keep updating the list. Once we have all the people, I'll setup a group private message for time/address etc.
LIST:
1) Anaxilus
2) OJneg
3)
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:)p5
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Oh sweet this one, close.
I'm in as long as its not Saturday.
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LIST:
1) Anaxilus
2) OJneg
3) Audiofrk
4) LFF
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wish I'd seen this before buying the DA8! great chart
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Did you float your Yulong down the LA River?
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I'm leaving the offer up for one more day. Then I'm sending a message to the people who showed interest...thanks guys!
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USB power. Modi 1 needed Wyrd to avoid sounding thin, weak, grainy, and unfocused. With Wyrd, Modi 1 improves significantly. I didn't bother with the Wyrd factor in the graph. Too many variables. For example, supposedly the Hugo shifts to the left and jumps upward 13 spaces with the Wyrd. I'm surprised Chord hasn't hired Jason and Moffat yet to do their USB properly.
I wasn't impressed by the hugo before, I'm hard-pressed to believe the USB implementation was holding it back by THAT much.
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Purrin, could you please add something general (realtek onboard/iPod) on this chart. :)
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Very nice chart with few blue items to focus on!
Please do headphone amp chart and headphone open fullsize chart too its would be really really awesome. It can help others make decision!! (at least me)
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@purr1n
It's interesting that your chart visually has a rather large hole right in the middle of it. It's almost like you started at the periphery and backfilled in towards the middle. I assume that it's to accentuate the contrasts between the DACs, or is it just logical fallout from your intuitive grasp of the hyperbole? ;)
Either way, your golden ears and collaborative efforts are showing us all the way.
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Holy crap, didn't notice.
Logical fall out from hyperbole / current sad state of affairs: lots of highly resolving DACs with delta-sigma sound -or- gooey / soft PCM1704 shit. This situation is a familiar conundrum with DAC searchers today.
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Pardon my ignorance, but any hints on what the redacted DAC is ???
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In any case I think [reDACted] might be a great name for a DAC.
Just guessing here ... a trickle down cheaper version of the Iggy with gen3 USB implementation for a more 'Schiit-ty'* price ?
At least I hope so.
I also wondered what a 'Resososnessence' is in the chart .. I do know 'Resonessence' though ;)
* (assuming a Schiit-ty price is a LOW price and thus not shitty)
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Pardon my ignorance, but any hints on what the redacted DAC is ???
The Re-DAC-Ted?
Ha... Solderdude beat me to it. :)p4
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In any case I think [reDACted] might be a great name for a DAC.
Just guessing here ... a trickle down cheaper version of the Iggy with gen3 USB implementation for a more 'Schiit-ty'* price ?
At least I hope so.
I think everyone is assuming it's Gungnir with USB 3 and multibit trickle-down.
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A request: any of the Geek Pulses, particularly the Xfi.
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A request: any of the Geek Pulses, particularly the Xfi.
Coming. Just got done comparing to the Hilo last night. Have to compile and edit my notes.
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I think everyone is assuming it's Gungnir with USB 3 and multibit trickle-down.
I'm going out on a limb and guess they will stick with the USB 2.
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And I'm going to go out on a limb and say Anax places the Xfi slightly north east of the Gungnir. I have both the aforementioned DACs and the Xfi on FTM sounded that way to my ears.
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The xfi in my opinion needs the LPS. Without it it is held back
The case is small so I may have to cut holes, but I'm thinking of upgrading the transformer in the LPS4 to see if there are more gains.
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applause for those brave (talented) enough to perform hack-A-DAC !
:)p7
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perhaps fellow pyrates can post in the DIY sections
I have moved between continents, and hate to just trade/give away gear because of voltage issues (100v vs 110v vs 220v etc.) when there's a possibility of just swapping out some parts (with some soldering of course)
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Just get a step-down or step-up voltage transformer at the wall. Make sure the transformer has enough wattage capacity. Won't sound any worse. Maybe even better because of of additional isolation.
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Just get a step-down or step-up voltage transformer at the wall. Make sure the transformer has enough wattage capacity. Won't sound any worse. Maybe even better because of of additional isolation.
Well what's the point of DIY if you're offering a simple solution!? :P
My outlet is close to being a fire hazard already with transformers, extensions etc hahaha
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Just entered the world of "decent" DACs, with a Modi 2 Uber. Finish is no BHSE, but sound is very very nice, indeed : meat, details, and no fatigue.
Ali
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applause for those brave (talented) enough to perform hack-A-DAC !
:)p7
Technically it's a hack-a-power supply. But that's arguably more risky.
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Well what's the point of DIY if you're offering a simple solution!? :P
My outlet is close to being a fire hazard already with transformers, extensions etc hahaha
Haha. Because simple is better.
It's a matter of getting a different internal transformer. For DACs, you might have one or two transformers converting wall voltage (110V, 220V, etc.) to something like 5V and +12V / -12V.
It's a matter of replacing the transformer to take the correct input voltage. Some transformers have taps where you can change the wiring around to take different input voltages.
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Since you have the Geek Outs on the chart, it would be nice to add the Geek Pulses (standard, X, Xfi, Infinity, with or without LPS) charted as well if you have enough experience with them (awesome topic BTW, very useful).
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See what koth and zdfx said a few posts ago. I'm tending toward their impressions with the limited experience I've had with them. I don't want to make definitive statements less I feel very comfortable about them. Also internal configuration, upgrades, clocks, power supply do add a lot of variables.
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Makes sense. Thanks.
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the femtos help, but the cost increase is high. I think the big upgrade is power supply.
Honestly, I think the campaign led down the path of boutique parts and exotic solutions. Audiophiles are idiots and the best gains for me for the pulse line is with better power.
With the XFi, I found the $160 Jay's LPS to be pretty darn good even compared to the regular LPS. Heck, even a dinky 12V bench linear power supply I use is an improvement over the crappy brick.
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^ x2! Power matters most with the Pulse's IME. That, and setting them up right.
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I have the LPS and always use that with the Xfi. I received the LPS first. Honestly, I've never even bothered to listen to the latter without the brick.
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Re: the XFI .. yes, I agree that the LPS (or another good PS) is a must.. also, when using the built-in amp, I feel high gain (at least via XLR) is where it sounds best. Low & mid gain sounded noticeably flatter (dimensionally) and dynamically compressed (comparatively speaking) in comparison. I'm looking forward to where you guys rate this on Merv's big bad DAC board. I haven't had a chance to use it just as a DAC.. but it's definitely one of the better, if not best, SABRE implementations I've heard.. though it is still SABRE. Larry did a nice job getting rid of the glare.. there's a welcome tinge of warmth without masking resolution).. but it still sounds a touch more clinical than I'd prefer.. I can deal though, cause the resolution is fantastic. Hope this will sound good with the Carbon (Ravi.. thoughts on this combo would be welcome, too.. here or on another thread)
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@purr1n
Are you auditioning anything currently to add to this chart?
Maybe anything from Wyred 4 Sound?
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A very different question (maybe belongs in the Yggy thread).... Over the weekend I was going back and forth between my MBA --> Xfi --> LCD-X on one hand and the MBA -->Yggy--> Mojo --> LCD-X. After using the Xfi, when I went to the Yggy, there was no sound output (and more importantly) the bit rate lights were not lighting up. The first time, I shut down and restarted the MBA and everything was fine with the Yggy. The second time, the same procedure did not work. I shut down the Yggy for like 5 seconds and turned it back on. Everything was fine again...I'm using Amarra 3.0.3 on the MBA. Any thoughts would be helpful and apologies if this does not belong here...
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^^^ 2 thoughts.
Macs have always been picky about how you disconnect external devices. Do DACs need to be ejected before disconnecting or powering down?
Also, is the USB implementation similar enough between the Xfi and Yggy to confuse the Mac into thinking they are the same DAC? Do you have a 3rd DAC to test that theory with?
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Jeff,
I am suspecting the Mac interface but I don't think you need to "eject" a DAC. When you go to the Sound icon in the System Preferences, the Mac correctly identifies either the Xfi or the Yggy as the case may be.
I will check this phenomenon with the Bifrost, thanks for that suggestion.
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Jeff,
I am suspecting the Mac interface but I don't think you need to "eject" a DAC. When you go to the Sound icon in the System Preferences, the Mac correctly identifies either the Xfi or the Yggy as the case may be.
I will check this phenomenon with the Bifrost, thanks for that suggestion.
Go into the Amarra preferences. At least with Audirvana I have to manually select a new DAC when I plug it in.
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My MBA can be finicky with disconnecting usb devices too. Sometime it wont recognize it, if it was plugged into the same port it was pulled from. I have to plug it into the other on board usb port for it to be recognized, or reboot the MBA to use the original port again.
It has happened on occasion with the Schiit Fulla, Schiit Modi 2 Uber, and the JDS C5D..
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Go into the Amarra preferences. At least with Audirvana I have to manually select a new DAC when I plug it in.
Pretty much this. And I agree with the comments about finicky mac USB in general. I use a Schiit Wyrd just because it can be so inconsistent.
I'll add one (possibly) helpful comment: for me at least, it helps things if I don't have the source that I want to use set in Mac OS System Preferences. Audirvana and JRMC both have application exclusive access (or, "Hog Mode") built into the program, so they'll use whatever source selected in the program regardless of what is set in Mac OS preferences. I'd imagine that Amarra has that too. Sometimes when switching DACs out that exclusive mode setting conflicts with the Sound Output OS settings. I leave my Sound Output OS settings on "Internal Speakers" and only select external audio devices inside of the options of the particular program I'm using. This prevents device/application conflicts.
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IMO USB is a waaaay over complicated (and under performing) spec laden with ~20 layers of crap which have been piled on over the years...
Don't be surprised when it doesn't work perfectly for everything but the most simple and well defined use cases.
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I've never really had a problem. Heck often times when I'm comparing two dacs I'll just leave them both plugged in and switch between them in audio midi or in audirvana's settings screen.
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Pretty much this. And I agree with the comments about finicky mac USB in general. I use a Schiit Wyrd just because it can be so inconsistent.
I'll add one (possibly) helpful comment: for me at least, it helps things if I don't have the source that I want to use set in Mac OS System Preferences. Audirvana and JRMC both have application exclusive access (or, "Hog Mode") built into the program, so they'll use whatever source selected in the program regardless of what is set in Mac OS preferences. I'd imagine that Amarra has that too. Sometimes when switching DACs out that exclusive mode setting conflicts with the Sound Output OS settings. I leave my Sound Output OS settings on "Internal Speakers" and only select external audio devices inside of the options of the particular program I'm using. This prevents device/application conflicts.
Cousin Balki and ZD,
thank you very much for the tip. I ignored the Mac System Preferences (left it on Internal Speakers) and used Amarra Preferences to select the Xfi. Works like a charm and when I go home will try it with the Yggy.
Add: Back home and working fine with the Yggy. Thanks once again mates.
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Curious to know where the DAC section of the hpa8c would fit on this chart especially given current new and used prices ....
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A very different question (maybe belongs in the Yggy thread).... Over the weekend I was going back and forth between my MBA --> Xfi --> LCD-X on one hand and the MBA -->Yggy--> Mojo --> LCD-X. After using the Xfi, when I went to the Yggy, there was no sound output (and more importantly) the bit rate lights were not lighting up. The first time, I shut down and restarted the MBA and everything was fine with the Yggy. The second time, the same procedure did not work. I shut down the Yggy for like 5 seconds and turned it back on. Everything was fine again...I'm using Amarra 3.0.3 on the MBA. Any thoughts would be helpful and apologies if this does not belong here...
I saw this once with my Yggy, working against a Mac mini running Audirvana. Restarted Audirvana, didn't matter. Attempted playback to other USB DACs, worked fine. Rebooted the mini, which I was sure would solve the problem, no dice...
Power-cycled the Yggy: bingo.
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I saw this once with my Yggy, working against a Mac mini running Audirvana. Restarted Audirvana, didn't matter. Attempted playback to other USB DACs, worked fine. Rebooted the mini, which I was sure would solve the problem, no dice...
Power-cycled the Yggy: bingo.
It's possibly related to syncing on the Yggy's jitter checker (the led on the far right that blinks when you turn it on).
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Now that the EAR Acute DAC has been given the once over, where would it fit on this chart?
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Notch underneath or perhaps same on vertical scale with tonality stretching three boxes from middle to right (tube goodness but D-S sound signature). Tubes have their own inherent strengths, but implemented well, they certainly do not cover up D-S faults.
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I consider it equal to the Bricasti myself but for different reasons. They both have that grainy sigma delta whatever hashy timbre compared to Yggy. Ear has better clarity, and tonal dynamics on the output, but I think I recall the Bricasti and Yggy having a more refined overall presentation than the Ear to me. Yeah, things pop more on the ear and I love clarity and blackground, but there's something a little too undisciplined about the Ear's presentation beyond just the grainy tone. Could be older tubes or just the inherent signature of those tubes. I think I've become accustomed to the precision of a good DHT or super space tubes.
For DACs, Yggy's accuracy and more cohesive and analog digital conversion is simply superior to either and any other modern non R2R solution. I'll explore my own or other output solutions for the Yggy than go back to listening to low rez/artifacted sounding wav/redbook. Plus Yggy still has the best imaging, layering and resolution despite the greyer and more tonally compressed sounding background.
My 2 cents.
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Yes. Yggy probably notches ahead because of megacomboburrito filter and Moffat bass, despite having grayer background and sounding flatter.
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Yes. Yggy probably notches ahead because of megacomboburrito filter and Moffat bass, despite having grayer background and sounding flatter.
In your mind would a tube buffer positively impact background and stage depth (or whatever you mean by "flatter")?
EDIT: Nvm, just read the meet impressions thread. All in due time, I suppose.
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A late thank you for sharing this chart.
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Waiting for purrin's take on Emovita xda2 gen2. Given how much words being exchanged by Keith over at headfi on the subject of sigma delta vs r2r
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Woah , look at dat ifi nano position lol.
I wonder how ifi micro will fared in this chart actually, still weighting if i should get one or just get used uberfrost (awesome deal at 250$ i'd say) to use with BW.
Of course i planned to get yggy or reDACTed later down the line but i need proper dac to set a system up with BW now.
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Curious how the NAD C510 would fare on this chart. Seems to have the same guts as the NAD M51 for less money. Cost is not far from the Matrix X-Sabre which is recommended and one space to the right. If the sound of the C510 at least equals the M51, then the reduction in price over the M51 might be enough to make it recommended.
I bought a C510 to use with HDMI sources in a 2 channel HT setup, and have been pleased. Having the HDMI input means I can get better sound out of devices with HDMI output. Using a Monoprice HDMI switch with one of the C510 HDMI inputs to add sources works well.
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Couple of DACs I've had success with: The APL NWO and recently a heavily modded Lite DAC60.
Now the NWO is $20K+ but the Lite DAC60 with mods (most important Mundorf Supreme Silver/Gold/Oil coupling caps and better tubes '75 HG 6N23p are my favorites) - is very competitive. Stock excellent for around $600 + another $500-$800 in mods outstanding!
A few features on the DAC60:
True R2R PCM1704K 24bit ladder DAC chips.
True (not an opamp buffer) 6922 tube output section
Separate PS for Analog and Digital Sections
Here is the thread I started on Headfi for the mods:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/740362/lite-dac60-pcm1704-r2r-tubed-dac-mod-project
This thing is sooo sweet sounding, yet detailed and resolving, extended tight bass and wide and deep sound stage. The best is the rich natural tone - I listen to this for 8-10hrs a day in my office system. Just captivating. Better then any SS DAC I have heard yet.
Feeding it with a modded Melodius MX-U8 (Audio Sensibilities silver ref 1.5M RCA SPDIF), custom dedicated iCore 5 WIN7 Pro music server.
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Lite DAC60
Dang, that Lite DAC60 sounds interesting. I see it available from a reseller in China for $464 USD. Is it available from US resellers?
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Dang, that Lite DAC60 sounds interesting. I see it available from a reseller in China for $464 USD. Is it available from US resellers?
I bought mine on Ebay from hifi-china. It was $650 shipped with buyer's protection. The thing about R2R DACs, especially with real tube outputs, they have rich tone and are very pleasing to listen to for long periods.
Here are some great articles that explains Resistor ladder DACs vs the sigma-delta and multi-bit newer designs. All have issues. The R2R's are very expensive and difficult to make, the S-D have major filtering issues and the Multi-bits have on silicon opamps.
http://www.mother-of-tone.com/conversion.htm
http://funwithaudio.blogspot.com/2012/01/today-in-electronics-everything-is-made.html
With the DAC60 you do give up a few things - like no I2S input, no DSD native processing (I use Foobar conversion to PCM), and limit to 96K sampling and 24 bit depth. But how many folks have 192K - true Ultra Hi Res downloads? Or true (not resampled) DSD files?
What you get is amazingly detailed and smooth sound.
Some of the very best DAC's use R2R ladder DACs - like Audio Note, Total DAC, MSB, Audio-gd (Master 7 - uses the same PCM1704 but twice as many), Zanden, etc...
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as perfect as the 2D DAC chart has become, the final steps to take:
a) morph this into a 3D cube representation (Rubik's)
b) repost (not purrin) onto a new thread at HF and watch brains explode.
:)p3
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LOL ZOMG! Great idea!
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This should turn into a n-dimensional matrix which must be traversed in it's entirety to find any particular entry. Brute force or bust.
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Maybe a post on how quality of DACs can't really be understood until you get to the 10th dimension, like string theory.
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................Plus Yggy still has the best imaging, layering and resolution despite the greyer and more tonally compressed sounding background.
My 2 cents.
Been meaning to educate myself on this one. How does one tonally identify a grey versus a black background?
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Hitchiker's guide to the DAC universe ?
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Hitchiker's guide to the DAC universe ?
I prefer to call DAC Sutra (as in relation to karma sutra)
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Been meaning to educate myself on this one. How does one tonally identify a grey versus a black background?
Without a reference to AB it's hard to pickup if you haven't noticed the difference before. It's the visual equivalent of looking out a crystal clear window versus a slightly hazy one. So one could say it's tied to clarity. Blackness is just the absence of something that keeps notes or tones from 'popping' against the background if that makes sense (think contrast ratio for TV's). You can notice this on various recorded masters where some have better dynamic range than others. Also masters that use noise reduction have a 'greyness' to them.
That said, the Yggy has pristine clarity and blackness on the digital side. The output side is where the layer of grey interferes with it. Once you hear enough DACs critically, you'll be able to tell where some of the sonic attributes are coming from.
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On that front the diy Soekris dac should shine. No output buffer at all, straight ladder out.
Some other technical aspects about it though are clearly not up there with something like Yggy.
I will have the opportunity to a-b with Yggy soon enough. I heard Yggy briefly and definitely noticed some more minute details in background. This is likely down to the real 20 bit precision vs 14-15 of Soekris dac.
(I know i sound like a freakin diy fanboy)
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the femtos help, but the cost increase is high. I think the big upgrade is power supply.
Honestly, I think the campaign led down the path of boutique parts and exotic solutions. Audiophiles are idiots and the best gains for me for the pulse line is with better power.
With the XFi, I found the $160 Jay's LPS to be pretty darn good even compared to the regular LPS. Heck, even a dinky 12V bench linear power supply I use is an improvement over the crappy brick.
new LH Labs Pulse Xfi + LPS review up:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/lh-labs-geek-pulse-xfi-linear-power-supply-4-lps4 (http://www.audiostream.com/content/lh-labs-geek-pulse-xfi-linear-power-supply-4-lps4)
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On that front the diy Soekris dac should shine. No output buffer at all, straight ladder out.
Some other technical aspects about it though are clearly not up there with something like Yggy.
I will have the opportunity to a-b with Yggy soon enough. I heard Yggy briefly and definitely noticed some more minute details in background. This is likely down to the real 20 bit precision vs 14-15 of Soekris dac.
(I know i sound like a freakin diy fanboy)
I found out about the Soekris, just recently. It looks very interesting! Isn't it a discrete resistor circuit, rather than a chip? What else have you compared it to?
P.S. @Purr1n Great chart BTW. I was wondering why I was feeling a bit 'lonely', over on that other thread!!
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What else have you compared it to?
Give me some time to put my final thoughts together on Yggy vs Soekris Dam. I've had ca 4h of a-b time, and in short the Yggy is still considerably better dac, but the difference is not massive, like it is between Soekris vs BMC Puredac or any other dac i have heard.
And it seems i was wrong in background blackness, Yggy feels blacker, but the Dam swings harder, more impact across the spectrum, leading edges are sharper, more pronounced.
Between the two i'd take Yggy for 6-7 tracks out of 10.
Worth noting, my Dam is heavily moded. The stock Soekris Dam wouldn't stand a fighting chance vs Yggy.
These are really raw notes as i have not set them up through speakers yet.
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Belated thanks to Marv for putting together this chart. This is very helpful for someone like me who doesn't get much opportunity to evaluate DACs in a controlled manner -- i.e., being able to switch out DACs while leaving rest of the chain the same. Marv's descriptions in the matrix can give me a chance at picking out gear that is likely to be a sound that I would expect to like based on personal preferneces, although there is, of course, no substitute for hearing yourself.
I envy all of you pyrates who can do this and pick up on differences and develop preferences. Over the last three years I have spent a decent amount of times at various audio shows, HF meetups and dealers. What is difficult for me is that I can only evaluate the entire system. So, maybe I prefer say an LCD-3C on system A versus system B at some meet, and can even describe why in some fairly limited noob way, but I cannot tell what component is doing what and causing me to like A more than B. If I loved something was it because of both the amp and DAC or just one or the other. Maybe cables. I just don't know how to figure that out. I would love to be able to swap out components but am rarely able to do that. I suspect that I would be more attuned to amp differences than DAC differences based on my experiences with different CD players and streamers over the years, but again I really don't know.
So, given my lack of experience, I am wondering how dramatic the differences in the different DACs are likely to be to an admittedly inexperienced listener. I get that to trained listeners the differences must be pretty significant hence the broad range on X and Y axis descriptions on the Chart of Awesomeness. But if compared to the differences in different transducers is that difference nonetheless relatively small. I am just trying to get a sense of scale and not in any way diminish the differences or question what people can hear. But, for example, would the difference between say the inexpensive but well respected Modi 2 versus the almost universally beloved summit-fi Yggy be greater than the difference than between say the HD600 and 650. And I mean in terms of audibility. In the sense of comparing where DACs stand on the spectrum among DACs, then presumably the Yggy stands much higher in terms of sonic qualities than the Modi, whereas most people put the HD600 and 650 more or less side by side at the same level in terms of overall sound quality, with people having different preferences for any number of personal reasons. But putting aside which is better, as well as the fact that they share a strong family resemblance, the differences between the 600 and 650 are quite clear to me (and probably anyone who has compared them). Holding amp and DAC constant I would think the overall SQ differences between the 600 and 650 would be fairly static and I would expect to be able to tell the two apart fairly easily regardless of setup with everything staying the same. Now imagine we picked one of those cans, picked a good amp for it and then switched between the Modi 2 and the Yggy (again just picking those two for illustrative purposes only). Would the difference in SQ, even putting aside which is better for the moment, be comparable or even greater than when I switched between transducers in the earlier examples. Or are the differences more subtle, yet still very important.
I may not be articulating that well, but hopefully my gist comes across. The Chart of Awesomeness reflects very different sound signature qualities and I do not doubt those differences. I am just wondering if they are more or less dramatic than differences in different cans (at least to relatively inexperienced listeners like myself). I picked the HD600 and 650 because they are relatively similar. Clearly, if you take very different cans like the HD-800 and the LCD-2, I cannot imagine that the most different DACs can be anywhere near as different as two different types of headphones.
Another way of looking at this is can a really bad DAC (a number of which are called out in the CofA) in and of itself ruin an otherwise good setup. (I didn't ask the converse because I would be doubtful that even the best DAC could save a really poor headphone/amp match, but perhaps I am wrong). Like, if I had a great HD600 with the EC Studio or something, could a crappy DAC completely ruin it or just undermine just how truly great it could otherwise be with something much better.
Apologies for the rambling nature but I am genuinely interested in people's thoughts on this.
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I see the EAR was added
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I wonder how the PS Audio NuWave DAC would fair on the chart?
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My two penneth, on the comparative differences of DACs vs headphones:
I've always been a 'spend the most on the transducer' kind of guy. The simple reason being that this is the item that converts electricity into the sound that you hear, so it has the most influence. Certain hifi magazines (that I once read) would always advise the opposite ("spend the most on the source"); I guess they follow the 'garbage in, garbage out' train of thought. It has some merit.
I think that their has to be a balance. I believe that those, for instance, who buy a pair of HD800s, but then connect them to an unsuitable amplifier, to play music (maybe MP3s) from their computer or ipod, have the balance wrong.
What it takes to correct that balance is basically the topic of discussion.
To me it seems that the difference between dacs is obviously less than the headphones (or speakers) that we hear through. But my rough guess, is by about a factor of 1/2. Maybe more. But I'd say that roughly the difference E.g. between a pair $200 phones and $500 phones, would maybe be replicated by the difference between a $200 and $1000 DAC. In totally different ways, of course. And then, the better phones and amp you have, the more profound the dac difference will appear.
It's a complicated 'hobby'! :-S
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To me its relative but yeah tranducer>amp> dac. However the difference between two shitty tranducer will be small. First meet I ever went to I a/b the LCD 2/3/he500 and to me the difference were so slight. Later in the same meet I a/b the hd800/th900 out of the Hugo and was th900 all the way. Sooo relative to the set up
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Put away my Yggy and listened to the Gungnir->ZDS-> HD 800. UGH ! Delta-sigma sucks. I cannot go there again...Funnily, there was an audible noise floor that was not present when the Yggy was on the chain.
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Put away my Yggy and listened to the Gungnir->ZDS-> HD 800. UGH ! Delta-sigma sucks. I cannot go there again...Funnily, there was an audible noise floor that was not present when the Yggy was on the chain.
Boy does Yggy -> ZDS -> HD800 ever sound like a beautiful rig!
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Put away my Yggy and listened to the Gungnir->ZDS-> HD 800. UGH ! Delta-sigma sucks. I cannot go there again...Funnily, there was an audible noise floor that was not present when the Yggy was on the chain.
Yup. What has been seen cannot be unseen. I'm done with DACs. Yggy and vinyl till a better Yggy comes.
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Yup. What has been seen cannot be unseen. I'm done with DACs. Yggy and vinyl till a better Yggy comes.
Yeah, I'm the same way. D-S is rough. I'm getting a [redacted] for work and then I should be good.
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+1 BW+[redacted] for work.
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OK. As usual, I'm late to the party. And yes, I could probably work it out for myself, if I had a few more brain cells (or was better informed). But......I'm not even going to write it; you know what I'm referring to. Please give me a clue. I'd certainly like to know what kind of price range it's in. So, can someone at least give a hint? Please?
:-Z
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My first DAC was the iFi micro iDSD and was very pleased with the performance, and then I bought an iDAC2 for use at work.
I then happened upon this thread and was rather surprised to see iFi being "slagged" so much. I realize it's nothing close to summit-fi, but the micro iDSD has been fairly well reviewed and been thought of as comparable to the Chord Hugo. Granted, many of the DACs recently seen floating down the LA river have also been well reviewed. I've only just finished reading p. 13 of this thread, so there may be stuff about iFi here that I haven't seen yet.
I ordered a nano iDSD for my colleague when I got the iDAC2 and finally got around to listening to it. It's definitely glarier, more veiled than the iDAC2 and micro iDSD and generally thin sounding, so I can see how Marv and zdfx would want to burn it.
I too am hella curious what the redacted units are ...
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Yup. What has been seen cannot be unseen. I'm done with DACs. Yggy and vinyl till a better Yggy comes.
Call me crazy but I actually want a second Yggy for work. However given the recent dusting at the hands of customs for the ZDS, I am looking for close-to-Yggy at less than a grand.
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I live in Taiwan and don't even know if there is an Yggdrasil in the country. I'll be in the New York City and Montreal area next March/April. Where can I hear this mythical Norse tree?
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May I suggest that you noble pirates give the DirectStream a try once more with the new firmware? It's called "Yale" and it's really quite an improvement. The change is a lot more significant that I had expected, almost a change of DAC in magnitude.
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May I suggest that you noble pirates give the DirectStream a try once more with the new firmware? It's called "Yale" and it's really quite an improvement. The change is a lot more significant that I had expected, almost a change of DAC in magnitude.
You can really hear the Ivy League.
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My first DAC was the iFi micro iDSD and was very pleased with the performance...
I heard the iFi Micro iDSD at the Boulder meet. Didn't seem too bad, I suppose, as a DAC. Didn't really listen for more than 30 seconds, just to verify it worked. Needed a backup DAC for my amps while my main DAC was in the high-end comparison room. Can't speak for the Nano. That is what Marv and zdfx wanted to burn, right?
May I suggest that you noble pirates give the DirectStream a try once more with the new firmware? It's called "Yale" and it's really quite an improvement. The change is a lot more significant that I had expected, almost a change of DAC in magnitude.
Send me one and I will test it. :P I don't trust PS Audio to know what they're doing after my experience with the PWD Mk1 and all the other related shenanigans.
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If the [redacted] uses the Gungnir case form, it may actually be too big for my desktop available space, now that I've gone to 2 monitors here at work, and there's that pesky BW PSU to spot as well. A Bifrost form DAC would be more appropriately sized. I may have to end up using my Ciunas, or even go back to my previous Lindemann.
Looking at marvey's chart, the Auralic Vega appears to have the best relative rating among the small form DAC candidates. Do any other small size DACs suggest themselves?
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Did anyone hear that 'penny drop'?
popcorn
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If the [redacted] uses the Gungnir case form, it may actually be too big for my desktop available space, now that I've gone to 2 monitors here at work, and there's that pesky BW PSU to spot as well. A Bifrost form DAC would be more appropriately sized. I may have to end up using my Ciunas, or even go back to my previous Lindemann.
Looking at marvey's chart, the Auralic Vega appears to have the best relative rating among the small form DAC candidates. Do any other small size DACs suggest themselves?
Get [redacted ^2]
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Saw that. The Auralic is rated as more resolving, relative to consensus/bad hair day, but since it uses the Sabre 9018, that's prolly a nonstart for me. However, the [redact^2] is rated at M7 level performance, and if so, that'll be sufficient, krill laden inside passage water depth nonwithstanding.
Bifrost form, right?
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Get [redacted ^2]
Quit teasing clueless n00bs like me! On pins and needles waiting for the announcement. popcorn
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Aurilic can resolve but still very digital sounding
And form? Maybe. try to wait till the end of this month before a decision is made
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If the [redacted] uses the Gungnir case form, it may actually be too big for my desktop available space, now that I've gone to 2 monitors here at work, and there's that pesky BW PSU to spot as well. A Bifrost form DAC would be more appropriately sized. I may have to end up using my Ciunas, or even go back to my previous Lindemann.
Looking at marvey's chart, the Auralic Vega appears to have the best relative rating among the small form DAC candidates. Do any other small size DACs suggest themselves?
The Vega isn't that small. I plan on sticking my monitor on top of my [redacted].
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August 15. All will be revealed.
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August 15. All will be revealed.
Damn, Aug 15 can't come soon enough.
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Vega is bright. Probably less of an issue with speakers. My main concern is the very obvious Sabre sound. The timbre is really screwy, artificial, robotic. Something people wouldn't necessarily notice unless they've heard resistor ladder/string DACs.
Looking forward to the 15th. I know the Colorado guys heard the [redDACted] and I agree that it's bit warmer and a bit less-focused / precise sounding compared to the Yggy, but I wouldn't call it wooly at all. Hard to say because the pre-production units from what I've seen are insanely hand-soldered component by component, SMT fine pitch stuff and all.
I need to make some changes to [reDACted^2] after further comparisons. It's more resolving and a bit warmer than I initially thought.
DONE
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^Promising! Thanks for the updates. headbang
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Maybe it's too early to ask since it's pre-prod, but is there any sense of how well the [reDACted^2] would pair with the HD650 + Valhalla 2? Would this get too gooey?
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Thanks, marv. Looks like a good match for the BW now. Baited breadth...
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Looking forward to the 15th. I know the Colorado guys heard the [redDACted] and I agree that it's bit warmer and a bit less-focused / precise sounding compared to the Yggy, but I wouldn't call it wooly at all. Hard to say because the pre-production units from what I've seen are insanely hand-soldered component by component, SMT fine pitch stuff and all.
Not sure if something was not 100% right with the unit itself or not, but given the issues we had with the Macs not playing nicely with reDACted's USB input (seriously, when it wasn't working right, you should have heard it...so weird), who even knows if we heard exactly what anyone else has. Whatever I heard, when (supposedly) working right, was not subtle. I know a couple other guys heard it too. We might all be crazy. But the Yggy sounded damn good, that's for sure.
Regardless, wasn't production. Not worried. Given track record, production unit should be super solid. Strongly considering one myself.
And since someone asked, I think it would pair just fine with the Val2 + HD650. Just roll tubes and mod HD650 based on your preferences.
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During my own comparison Yggy had in one occasion channels mixed up somehow internally. Power cycled Yggy and all was well. Maybe something with firmware. I had 3 dacs hooked to one computer running Daphile, maybe the issue started there. Mac with Audirvana had pitch problem (faster playback) with one of my dacs.
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Interesting. MArv's old AudioGD M7 used to swap channels all the time.
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I had that with my Offramp RJ-45 (i2s) and M7 as well. Very interesting to hear songs with switched ears, though. Kind of make you "discover" the song again and focus more.
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I'm currently using modi 2 uber connect to my bm compact mkiii active speakers. Sounds pretty good. However, I wonder how much the difference are between modi 2 uber version VS Bifrost gen 2 usb uber version. They both have new USB input and uber analog section (Im sure they are not the same in two devices) There is a 400 dollar price difference. Does the upgrade worth the price??
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:)p5
Have I been drinking too much rum? I thought the above 2 posters were the same person!?! ::)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=239.0;attach=10519;image)
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Have I been drinking too much rum? I thought the above 2 posters were the same person!?! ::)
Me too, and I don't even drink. :-[
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It's a bone-sharing scheme
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Dem bones are popular; I just saw yet another poster using the exact same avatar, on another thread! :)p10 :-S
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It's the new default avatar. Never changed mine.
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Speaking of Avatars, who ever gave me mine, "Thanks!" It's cool. :)p7
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I want to see my new avatar too!
Anyway, noticed Marv updated his impressions of the redacted^2. Nice to see that he found even more resolution than before (even beating the Master 7), but I'm not sure how to feel about more warmth. I was hoping to grab one for my LCD2.2, but the last thing I want for it to have is more warmth.
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but the last thing I want for it to have is more warmth.
I'm a little concerned about this as well - i don't think my HD650 + Valhalla 2 setup needs more warmth.
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That chart is a real eye-opener.
I wonder where a Marantz NA-11S1 or the similar SA-11S3 would end up.
And the less expensive HD-Dac1.
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Anyone seen this 3 way comparison between Theta V A, Schiit Yggdrasil and MSB Analog with Quad USB:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/msb-analog/reviews/13668
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Anyone seen this 3 way comparison between Theta V A, Schiit Yggdrasil and MSB Analog with Quad USB:
http://www.head-fi.org/products/msb-analog/reviews/13668
The MSB Analogs I've heard never struck me as more neutral and less warm than the Yggy. That's bizarre. More air and treble too? Weird. More resolving?? All I can surmise is most of those impressions were done via USB and that ifi USB/Coax converter and ESound CD player must pretty much suck. USB is the worst input on the Yggy, period, the end. Also, if that 2A3mkIV is only SE input then he is listening through the Yggy's summers. No 3-pin to RCA cable will be transparent to the Yggy's balanced output either. I've tried.
This is also the second time I've heard the Yggy fare more poorly compared to other DACs from someone using network streaming for critical evaluation. I've also never heard any MSB or any other DAC remove itself from the chain's digital signature as well as the yggy. The background simply melts away. Yeah, it's grey and less black from the FETs, but it leaves the digital information naked on it's own out there.
I don't doubt what they heard, but I doubt how definitive and comprehensive their test protocols are. Too many red flags to me that are easy to explain. I don't even know wtf the point of having that silly converter was.
Here's a laughable impression from 6moons on that CD player to prove my point:
"If you need to hear every single carbonation bubble burst, you might feel cheated here. Not me though. While knowing that more remains possible, I can live without out it especially considering long-term comfort. To boot, the treble isn't opaque. Rather, it's elegantly discreet to never run the risk of a digital alarm clock which can otherwise disturb the €1,000 range."
http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/eastsound/eastsound.html
Translation? The CD player is no bueno. Why would you feed a 4 digit DAC that garbage to test for transparency?
I dare say that reviewer has not heard either of those DACs at their best. It's all about perspective and variables. Nice effort on their part however. I just wouldn't count it as authoritative.
Edit-One other point to consider. Use of language. Our uses of terms like 'warm' might not be the same.
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The point of the "silly convertor" was Theta has no USB, and for convenience and not only, everyone I know is using the Theta with a convertor. That old fellow still punches greatly. I stand by all those impressions and I think I was nice to Yggy in my review. Btw I have a balanced speaker amp and had several above average balanced headamps here like the Rag or Moon430ha. While there is a difference favouring the Yggy over its SE it isnt something that would prompt me into re-writing any of what was said or selecting another headamp over the EC.
Yggy is a very good and nice sounding Dac and I respect that. I would recommend it to many, including friends. It did not really match the MSB Analog with the Quad USB in technicalities or transparency though as summarised in the review.
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I've been told by a few others that the MSB Quad USB is supposed to be a significant improvement over the old USB, but I have not heard it yet. It does make sense considering that you did say the Analog DAC was almost a different DAC when running via coax from your CDP.
FWIW, I preferred the Yggy via AES3 from the Data III transport over the USB Gen 3. The Schiit USB solution isn't bad at all, but it sounded more closed-in and murky than from the Data III.
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Get a Uptone REGEN.
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Yeah, I use Yggy via AES or coax from a competent CD transport. I'd love to hear the Analog with magical Quad USB vs. Yggy and my transport anyday.
Note, I didn't say what you heard was wrong. I clearly and explicitly said that in the post above. I was explaining why you may have only heard what you did.
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This discussion has been very helpful. Just yesterday my friend loaned me his CD transport and I connected via coax to the Yggy. I could immediately discern a 'clearing up" of the sound. The transport was an old Marantz and I'm looking into other models now. This will mean rebuilding my CD collection too. I've also got a musical server connecting into the Yggy via optical. Yggy, what have you done !
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............................. Also, if that 2A3mkIV is only SE input then he is listening through the Yggy's summers. No 3-pin to RCA cable will be transparent to the Yggy's balanced output either. I've tried.
....................................................
Anax, given your observation above, is it possible to get better output from the Yggy to the ZDS ?
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After being repeatedly told (on the other forum) that, these days, pc audio is just as good as (or even better than) dedicated transports. It's refreshing for me to read that, around here, maybe not everyone feels this way.
Are there any discussions, anywhere, about alternative sources (particularly using flac or wav files), that I may have missed? If not, perhaps I'll start one myself.
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But but... Atomic bob posted a jitter perfect measurement of usb3 ygg which ate USB cables... walk the plank
So does that mean ygg will benefit from a quality USB ddc(aes) like offramp5 or hydra-z or berkley alpha?
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After being repeatedly told (on the other forum) that, these days, pc audio is just as good as (or even better than) dedicated transports. It's refreshing for me to read that, around here, maybe not everyone feels this way.
Are there any discussions, anywhere, about alternative sources (particularly using flac or wav files), that I may have missed? If not, perhaps I'll start one myself.
Apart from the turntable thread, myself and a few others have talked about CD transports here and there. Many of the vintage ones are still untouchable compared to most modern units. I compared my own to a Cambridge Audio, Oppo, Tascam/TEAC, Marantz, PS audio PWT, and a few others. They all got spanked handily. The closest was Marv's Marantz which he modded. IT had great sound stage depth and layering, but less resolution bass, dynamics, etc. His might have had slightly sweeter vocals if I recall. The best modern CD transports I've heard were from Esoteric and Boulder. No matter who or what, USB has always lost to my ears. Ever...single...time. Let's not even talk about streaming 'lossless' audio. i keep hearing implementations of this stuff and it keeps getting better and better each year (Aries, and the really expensive streamer from the Korean company with the weird mediocre sounding DAP that's not AK/Cowon/Calyx), but not quite there yet.
If I could get the audio quality from USB/PC equal to or better than spinning a CD platter or vinyl rig I would do just that. That's some tedious stuff. I don't think digital is inferior, just that it's messy and people either don't care, or aren't really trying because they are already biased by the bit-perfect '1's and '0's mentality. The people that actually are looking are still at the relative infancy of truly understanding all of it and how those parts relate to subjective listening.
That said, I'm still looking to investigate various options to bypass USB if I can ever get the freaking parts in stock.
But but... Atomic bob posted a jitter perfect measurement of usb3 ygg which ate USB cables... walk the plank
So does that mean ygg will benefit from a quality USB ddc(aes) like offramp5 or hydra-z or berkley alpha?
Yes! If you read my review on the Yggy, I explicitly mentioned that, and preferred using a Lynx Hilo as an offramp to convert from USB>AES. Even with it, the transport was better via coax. This is why I've said that until somethig digital can come along and match or beat the best vinyl rigs out there, I really don't care that much anymore. If anyone prefers something about another DAC to the Yggy, it's a trade-off or side-grade in various aspects that I'm unwilling to make personally at this point. I mean I've compared the MSB platinum DAC using the same track versus my old PWD and the PWD was more resolving. The Yggy crushes my PWD in that regard. So to hear the Analog with this new USB input supposedly sound that amazing is somewhat miraculous to me.
For full disclosure, we compared the Yggy to shaizada's EAR DAC at his place and it was the worst DAC there when streaming from his MAC. It was awful and shocking by comparison (though I could still make out the better digital stage). We did the same comparison at the Brooks Berdan meet via coax and Marv's Marantz with the EAR being at best a side-grade (weaker digital D/S sound with superior tube output stage) with a slight majority favoring the Yggy (superior digital with inferior FET output stage.
So all these things matter. YMMV.
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Apart from the turntable thread, myself and a few others have talked about CD transports here and there. Many of the vintage ones are still untouchable compared to most modern units. I compared my own to a Cambridge Audio, Oppo, Tascam/TEAC, Marantz, PS audio PWT, and a few others. They all got spanked handily. The closest was Marv's Marantz which he modded. IT had great sound stage depth and layering, but less resolution bass, dynamics, etc. His might have had slightly sweeter vocals if I recall. The best modern CD transports I've heard were from Esoteric and Boulder. No matter who or what, USB has always lost to my ears. Ever...single...time. Let's not even talk about streaming 'lossless' audio. i keep hearing implementations of this stuff and it keeps getting better and better each year (Aries, and the really expensive streamer from the Korean company with the weird mediocre sounding DAP that's not AK/Cowon/Calyx), but not quite there yet.
If I could get the audio quality from USB/PC equal to or better than spinning a CD platter or vinyl rig I would do just that. That's some tedious stuff. I don't think digital is inferior, just that it's messy and people either don't care, or aren't really trying because they are already biased by the bit-perfect '1's and '0's mentality. The people that actually are looking are still at the relative infancy of truly understanding all of it and how those parts relate to subjective listening.
That said, I'm still looking to investigate various options to bypass USB if I can ever get the freaking parts in stock.
Indeed,.....I was going to post my response here. But I've decided to start a new thread, rather than going OT.
ahoy 'Alternatives to USB audio or 'Spinning a disc'?' -
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2699.0.html
Please have a look and tap in a few thoughts.
:wheel:
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Anax, are you still using the same primary transport? I know you've mentioned that as your preference, but some of your thoughts are sparse and scattered across the site, so what exactly about it do you prefer or think it does better?
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Anax, are you still using that DCD-2700 for your primary transport? I know you've mentioned that as your preference, but some of your thoughts are sparse and scattered across the site, so what exactly about it do you prefer or think it does better?
Easy. Blacker background. More clarity, more resolution, more micro dynamics and transient information, tremendous low end bass, harmonics and detail. It does the Sheffield Labs Drum Improv better than pretty much any I've heard. The degree of tonal contrasts between each part of the drum kit is fantastic. Treble could stand to be smoother sometimes. Definitely not perfect. Soundstage is not as wide and deep or layered as Marv's modded Marantz, but neither is the new Marantz or most of the other transports I've mentioned.
It's like using your wipers and fluid on a slightly dusty windshield.
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OK, so, treble could stand to be smoother sometimes. How does it compare in that aspect to some of the common USB->SPDIF converters? Is it just a smoothness issue or something deeper with overall tone, timbre, or general perceived frequency balance?
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On the CD transport thing, all modern transports seem to suck with the exception of the refrigerator sized super-high-end units and maybe the last of the Sonys (if Sony still makes them). Better off with vintage stuff from yesteryear, whether it be the high-end (Theta, CEC, Teac VRDS based units), or slightly lower tier, i.e. Sony/Denon (when they used to be good).
I've said this before, the transport is 20-50% of a DACs sound.
USB is convenient... but I know some of you know that I have gone back to spinners. I've also rid myself of USB->SPDIF converters. You know, there is a good reason why I've shown the Eddie Current stuff at the meets with spinners+DAC instead of computers.
It's like using your wipers and fluid on a slightly dusty windshield.
^
USB has a haze to it.
P.S. This does make me curious about the MSB Analog again. It's entirely possibly that MSB's old USB solution (which was really old), held the Analog back, not too dissimilar to like how the AGD M7 blew chunks without the OR5 i2s. Anyone know where I can find an MSB dealer to actually audition their stuff? Their dealer network in the USA seems to be shot.
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OK, so, treble could stand to be smoother sometimes. How does it compare in that aspect to some of the common USB->SPDIF converters? Is it just a smoothness issue or something deeper with overall tone, timbre, or general perceived frequency balance?
Every USB>SPDIF converter I've heard adds a veil or coloration. Just a matter of how badly. I haven't tried them all, but quite a few. The treble thing is just a sort of narrow band scratchy digital thing not uncommon for solid-state stuff. It's from my particular transport. It's because treble on cymbals can sound really organic and sweet in the fundamental, but then the harmonic can sound a little splashy or etched so you notice it more.
I too am curious about the newer Analog. Let me know if you find one Merv and we'll DAC it off.
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I too am curious about the newer Analog. Let me know if you find one Merv and we'll DAC it off.
They are in Watsonville, but I've heard they don't take too kindly to people who want to visit. Gotta go through this guy first:
(http://www.msbtech.com/contact/VinnyCES08_1.jpg)
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We've seen him at The Show before I'm pretty sure. I have some thoughts on how to make it happen if it becomes difficult.
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Every USB>SPDIF converter I've heard adds a veil or coloration. Just a matter of how badly. I haven't tried them all, but quite a few. The treble thing is just a sort of narrow band scratchy digital thing not uncommon for solid-state stuff. It's from my particular transport. It's because treble on cymbals can sound really organic and sweet in the fundamental, but then the harmonic can sound a little splashy or etched so you notice it more.
OK, thanks for the info! Guess I'd just have to hear it for myself. Sounds like you haven't found another CDP that captures everything you mentioned without this treble quality, correct? I'm curious how a good SD player would sound compared to USB->SPDIF or a CDP, but I'll ask that in the other thread to get this one back on track.
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P.S. This does make me curious about the MSB Analog again. It's entirely possibly that MSB's old USB solution (which was really old), held the Analog back, not too dissimilar to like how the AGD M7 blew chunks without the OR5 i2s. Anyone know where I can find an MSB dealer to actually audition their stuff? Their dealer network in the USA seems to be shot.
Our friend Negura here does prefer the MSB analog with the upgraded USB module to the Yggy.
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OK, thanks for the info! Guess I'd just have to hear it for myself. Sounds like you haven't found another CDP that captures everything you mentioned without this treble quality, correct? I'm curious how a good SD player would sound compared to USB->SPDIF or a CDP, but I'll ask that in the other thread to get this one back on track.
Some Esoterics and Boulders sound very good. I just haven't been able to AB them directly. I'm sure there's more out there I haven't heard yet. Now you're talking adding one or two zeros $$.
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We've seen him at The Show before I'm pretty sure. I have some thoughts on how to make it happen if it becomes difficult.
Doesn't that Golden Ears guy on HF have an msb analog dac?
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Our friend Negura here does prefer the MSB analog with the upgraded USB module to the Yggy.
You haven't read the thread or are you being redundant?
:spank:
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You haven't read the thread or are you being redundant?
:spank:
As in the MSB is a usb to spdif convertor Mike ? Sorry I'm not following you. This is a DAC thread, I'm posting about DACs ...
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As in the MSB is a usb to spdif convertor Mike ? Sorry I'm not following you. This is a DAC thread, I'm posting about DACs ...
You can catch up here:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2500.msg77378.html#msg77378
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You can catch up here:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2500.msg77378.html#msg77378
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2500.msg77378.html#msg77378
Seems like I missed that somehow. My bad. Spanking deserved.
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No worries. :)p5
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No worries. :)p5
:)p5
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Hrm... gonna have to order myself an AES cable and try Yggy being fed from my TASCAM-DA3000. Inconvenient but it might be worth it.
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Frenchbat, no spanking should be needed here. We are about to clarify matters a bit further for inquisitive minds.
Going back to the post you were quoted:
The logical construct is good but the entire rationale imo is wrong. And that is normal because what I am using as upstream to the DAC seems to be unfamiliar at best, from reading the comments. The CD player used is good (btw 6moons - not my favourite, but few are; however I recommend reading the content of the article within its actual context). What could be going on here, may simply be that there is no actual "mageek" the CD Player can produce in my context. The network streamer & LPS powered USB I am using is already clean and much more free of ubiquitous PC related nastiness than should be the case. The CD player sounds good, it is organic, analogic and effortless sounding (you guys probably remember I was actually quite pleased with how the CD transport sounded based on my CS IRC comments), but the USB ended up as preferable for both sound and convenience with both Yggy and MSB. This is 2015, so it makes sense to invest time in using modern technology. I thought that was one of points with Yggy vs Theta - a great R2R modern DAC. We are now told the Yggy USB sucks - I don't actually agree. It's decent/good. Part of the problem imo is PCs are crap at providing clean USB signal and I know better than many that it is not an easy fix.
Of course what I am saying will likely not convince any legacy technology supporters and that's not the point I want to make. The point is the MSB Analog with the latest firmware and Quad USB is imo sounding consistently better than Yggy at most of what matters. It also beats Yggy at Yggy's strengths. The Theta V A however has a couple of things on the MSB, which is why the latter is still in the cards for me even if for a hilarious/amazing time its bass/explosive transients provide. I obviously recommend hearing the MSB, sufficiently much that I bought it and replaced the Yggy as my main DAC. Happy listening!
Going back to CD players it's not that I disagree or don't trust what is being said, but I have to hear it first, comparatively in my system. So far, I was not convinced. Again this is not a case of black and white.
So here's what I plan to do: I will be getting an MSB Signature V stack here to audition and I will also try to get the MSB transport, probably the Platinum Data CD IV. I've not heard the transport at home, but I am hoping it's rather suitable. If I think it's worthwhile, I will comment on how an Yggy performs in the mix, with the MSB Analog and Sig V. If I think we're looking at a too big of a gap in SQ, I will be honest and fair to Yggy and not include it, but I can let you guys know. This is all with an open mind, if the Sig V is not worthwhile, that will also be stated.
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I don't think anyone is saying that the Yggy USB sucks. Anax and I are stating that our experience with our spinners (after collectively going through probably a dozen or more by now), has been that they (at least the ones we ended up keeping) are better than the Yggy's built-in USB (and PWD2 USB) implementation. Over the last year or two, both of us have migrated more toward using CDP over USB despite the slight inconvenience.
I do think it was worthwhile for us to point out that our experience with "coax" differs quite dramatically from yours with your East Sound CDP. Honestly, I have a hard time believing a Chinese CD Player is going to be a good transport.
My only concern with the review is use of the word "COAX" which is sort of a wrong implication (I've been guilty of this in the past). Not all CD transports are created equal, and some very expensive modern ones we've tried were unimpressive.
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If it's about terminology particularities please try to excuse it. I've lived in the UK for a few years now, but I am continental European and English language is not my mother tongue. If I used the latter nobody here would understand a thing though. =)
I am puzzled about the issue with a "Chinese CD Player". There are some very good Chinese brands, to name a few: Audio GD, Hifiman, Xindak, Line Magnetic and I could enumerate a few more. There are bad ones too.
I am willing to try more CD transports and given the possibility I will do so further. However as noted above, my preference is I'd rather focus my efforts towards USB/streaming technology. You guys are doing a great job with keeping CD players alive.
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Haha. That's cool. Honestly, going down the CD transport path is a can of worms and definitely not recommended (along with going down the vinyl path). Only the Changstar crazies are doing this. (Yes, there is a secret club of CD transport and to-be(again) vinyl guys).
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1-I take no issue with people using streaming or USB in the reviews because it's '2015'. I have issues if people take those impressions to be definitive or comprehensive. Hey, the more data the better, and i think it's good for people to have counter arguments or counter experiences to report. I've already shown how various changes in a source chain can yield starkly contrasting and inconsistent results from one rig to another. People need to be mindful of all the variables and permutations to make informed decisions. Most us here tend to focus on absolute sonic performance over convenience when making definitive claims though.
2-2015 doesn't really mean anything as far as progress. If it did, people should ditch R2R and stick with D/S or get a Sabre DAC. Forget vinyl!!
3-Nobody here said to get an Yggy over a Theta just because it has USB to my knowledge. In my time with them, the Yggy does plenty of things better than the Theta. Referring to it as some sort of watered down Theta DAC with USB completely misses what it does better than the Theta DAC. Theta is warmer for sure and has a blacker background in the analog output, but the Yggy is cleaner, more precise and offers a more see-through clarity IME.
4-Your review clearly indicates your CD transport sounds less competent than USB. That was a huge redflag to me based on my experience. I have yet to hear any USB or offramp implementation rival or best a reference transport. I'm willing to hear new and better things, and would love to give up playing with discs if you are right. Till you or anyone else can demonstrate my ears wrong, I'll take impressions of USB sounding better with a grain of salt based purely on my own experience.
5-What's so special about the MSB transport? Is this the one using Oppo's video playback for Blurays? Both the best Oppo player they have and PS Audio's PWT with memory playback+I2S were crushed by my vintage transport. Look into trying out the best Esoteric transport or get a Boulder if you don't like vintage stuff. Getting a transport that can also playback Blurays is a rather large red flag to me. Again, if convenience is your thing, maybe that makes sense.
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I also have no issue with people asking genuine questions regarding gear and setups they have not heard and I will be happy to try and help. That's why we exchange articulated opinions.
I have issues with people assuming and hypothesising on stuff they have not heard or taking things out of context to try and prove a point. This is audio and we're all experienced enough to know first hand theory-crafting just does not work. Leading others to a certain thought path based on theory-crafting can be very misleading very quickly.
1. The point is 2015 can provide great USB. It's just not easy. As Marv mentioned CD transports or vinyl are a similar or an worse can of worms. Where 2015 also comes in, is the newer can of worms provides convenience. The legacy one does not.
2. Yes it does. Until I hear a CD player that can resolve what the MSB Quad USB does. This is nothing to do with R2R.
3. Nobody compared Theta to Yggy that way. This is misunderstanding and a tangent.
4. Yes it did for me. My best recommendation is anyone should always take anything with a grain of salt, and hear stuff in the own time and leisure to make their own impression.
5. I don't know what is so special about their transport. In the same way I don't have any indication it's bad, because I have not heard it. Anything else would be speculation. But if I get it, I will be happy to share my impressions.
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It would be nice for you to investigate other transports that are not video playback devices marketing Oppo technology and built to fit into a particular chassis aesthetic. Maybe MSb is just THAT good, but it sounds like a compromise device with a lot of features and technology I've heard in inferior transports. By all means, let us know if you try the MSB. The question is will that tell us anything about ToTL transports versus USB?
I'm not even going to comment on terms derived from Starcraft being applied to audio. There's definitely some lexical issues going on. Cheers. :)
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Now what would be interesting if the Quad USB sounded better than the MSB transports. I'm not past MSB pulling a rabbit out of their hats with their USB implementation.
We need to schedule a micro-meet @ GoldenEars (not the Korean dude) place. He always picks a bad day. Don't know if he has the Quad USB though.
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Yeah, he's down here in Laguna Beach now I think. Pretty close to one of my sushi haunts.
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You guys got the idea. That's what matters.
They also changed the DAC firmware. I have no way to know what is responsible for what, because I did not hear the previous firmwares or the old USB. The Quad USB only operates with the latest firmware.
Also if anyone thinks Yggy is very particular in regards to its warm-up time, it's probably worse with the MSB. It does take about 2-3 days to stabilize and seems to start degrading in SQ even if it's powered on, but inputs/outputs are not connected. It's also getting physically cold when that happens. Speaking with other owners, I am not the only one to have noticed this.
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You guys got the idea. That's what matters.
They also changed the DAC firmware. I have no way to know what is responsible for what, because I did not hear the previous firmwares or the old USB. The Quad USB only operates with the latest firmware.
Also if anyone thinks Yggy is very particular in regards to its warm-up time, it's probably worse with the MSB. It does take about 2-3 days to stabilize and seems to start degrading in SQ even if it's powered on, but inputs are not connected. It's also getting physically cold when that happens. Speaking with other owners, I am not the only one to have noticed this.
I don't doubt that at all. I've talked to Jason and Mike, Craig, Steve Nugent, Bryston and a few others about effects of thermal shifts relative to perceived audio quality many moons ago. It's quite real. I also feel some devices can also be left on for too long. Takes a much more knowledgeable person than me (who isn't a cognitive psychologist) to write a comprehensive explanation for the reasons why. That would be a fascinating thread actually.
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Now what would be interesting if the Quad USB sounded better than the MSB transports. I'm not past MSB pulling a rabbit out of their hats with their USB implementation.
We need to schedule a micro-meet @ GoldenEars (not the Korean dude) place. He always picks a bad day. Don't know if he has the Quad USB though.
These DACS are what he was pimping at his last scheduled meet:
DAC list- with original pricing for comparison
MSB Analog DAC stack with volume control ( all separate power supplies and transports) $22,419
Wadia 860x 24/96 PCM DAC /CD player with Great Northern Sound Starement level upgrade with volume control $8950
Acoustic quality AQUA LA SCALA PCM only NOS DAC ( Johnny Darkos favorite DAC yet! Only model in Southern California! $5500
Acoustic quality AQUA LA VOCE PCM only NOS DAC( you can roll 4 different DAC chips in this, only unit in SoCal) $2600
Hegel HD25 PCM only with volume control
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What's up with that Analog price? Even with MSBs imo slightly disgusting add-on pricing it's a lot more than expected...
One can start looking at Signature V for that money.
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Speaking of transports, I'd love to try one of these things:
http://www.tachyon.co.jp/~sichoya/SDTrans/SDTrans4.html
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Hi guys,
Complete noob here about CD players, but i was curious about the way they are different. Does not seem to make much sense to me. Im new though.
Id like to use the SPDIF input of the yggy, but if converters colour the sound, what other suggestion is there?
I was thinking the Oppo 105, maybe modding it with modwright, or is there another transport that can take in a hard drive as well and output SPDIF.
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What's up with that Analog price? Even with MSBs imo slightly disgusting add-on pricing it's a lot more than expected...
One can start looking at Signature V for that money.
Negura you'll have to explain the pricing in UK, to make things clear. You guys are not on the same page price-wise IIRC.
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I am actually comparing with the MSB pricelist for the USA... yes sure one has to add some options and there's an expensive powerbase. But still it looks very expensive for the Analog DAC. That's Signature V money.
http://www.msbtech.com/products/analogDacDetail.php?Page=platinumHome
On an unrelated note, that MSB network renderer looks very interesting to me. If done well it could be the best out of all worlds. My understanding is it's an unfinished product at the moment, which makes it surprising they are listing it for purchasing.
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I'm anxiously awaiting for redacted and redacted^2 to get updated on the graph...
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So the [redacted] is Multibit Gungnir - 90% Yggdrasil
:)p4 :)p4
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So the [redacted] is Multibit Gungnir - 90% Yggdrasil
Yes. I haven't updated the chart yet.
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Slightly off topic but anyone know the difference between schiit wyrd and audioquest jitterbug?
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audio stream does.
http://www.audiostream.com/category/cables-accessory-reviews
(http://www.audiostream.com/category/cables-accessory-reviews)
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I assume since the USB part of multibit Gungnir is unchanged, that its "90% of Yggy" only applies via S/Pdif input?
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Hi guys,
Complete noob here about CD players, but i was curious about the way they are different. Does not seem to make much sense to me. Im new though.
Different designs for motor, spindle, tray, laser, transformer(s), shielding, damping, board layout and components.
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The Gustard X20U looks very well made inside and outside:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/752522/gustard-amplifiers-and-dacs/390#post_11839961
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Has anyone had the chance to try the Audio-GD DAC-19 or Master-11? I know that the Master-7 is already listed (though is that with or without the new Amanero combo384 USB option)? I'm especially interested in the DAC-19 since it's well reviewed and it is a very competitively priced R2R DAC ($800, $840 with Amanero USB option). How would it compare with the Gungnir MB?
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Has anyone had the chance to try the Audio-GD DAC-19 or Master-11? I know that the Master-7 is already listed (though is that with or without the new Amanero combo384 USB option)? I'm especially interested in the DAC-19 since it's well reviewed and it is a very competitively priced R2R DAC ($800, $840 with Amanero USB option). How would it compare with the Gungnir MB?
Without the Amanero, since that's very new in Kingwa's stable.
I know that Zach (ZMF) recently ordered the Master-11. I'm hoping to hear it sometime this month.
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Another review comparing the updated Analog DAC versus the Yggy mostly via USB.
http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review/
My response to a discussion copied from the shoutbox:
"I don't necessarily think his review is wrong if you read between the lines.
One, he used USB for most of the review. Yggy's Achilles heal. He mentioned it's much closer to the old Analog DAC usb. Sure, I can buy that with certain technicalities of a gimped Yggy versus the old analog sound which wasn't that super special. Then he says this Hydra thing brings it closer to the updated Analog with all the g-wiz stuff. So to me, that's saying the spdif is clearly better than the old analog without gwiz stuff which is eaxctly what we've been saying all along. So a better SPDIF transport should do better still and myself and others have heard and said as much wrt the Yggy. So where does that put the newer Analog with quad usb and new firmware? Don't know till we hear it. I do know from talking with Larry Ho and the LH boys, fw makes a huuuuge difference and it's one of the main reasons their sabre implementations dont suck like others. Firmware matters. So I'm open to it.
Two, this warmth, smokiness and most of the technical deficiencies mentioned relative to the Analog comparisons are the result of two things adding greyness and haze/veil to the Yggy. FET analog output, and using it's USB. If you can eliminate one or both of those, I think some people will hear clearly more of the magic that the chips and filter are providing. Some people seem to be missing the added hyper clarity and accuracy through the smoke and greyness. Makes me wonder about other parts of their chain because i can clearly hear it versus the every other DAC. Sure, the greyness and smoky flavor persist to a lesser degree, but the digital implementation is just haunting"
I can also say that I was one of the people along with Marv and maybe Greed that found the older MSBs like the old Analog and Platinum not that super resolving. I have some of the same EXACT tracks used by MSB to demo their Platinum rig which sounded really nice during various demos and using those same EXACT tracks on my old PWD mk1>2 revealed a number of recording and mastering flaws the MSBs never picked up. Now the Yggy is on another level still in ultimate resolution versus the PWD even if it is still more organic and smoother sounding. So the conclusion was obvious to me.
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Maybe time for schiit to design a Yggdrasil analog board V2?
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It sure is funny how each of us can hear things a bit differently. When a group of us heard the Yggy with the Hydra Z, we all came away with the opposite consensus of Mr. Headphonia. Not that I am trying to say he did not hear it as he wrote it, but our little group all preferred native Yggy USB over the Hydra Z with souped up power.
That could have been due to a lot of factors and may have been really system dependent. To my ears the native USB of the Yggy beat the Yggy CORRECTED (Hydra Z with the Hydra ZPM Power Supply going coax spdif into the Yggy)...........in terms of spatial depth and width, openness, stage size and high end extension. We all heard the Hydra Z character (from other dac pairings) of very black background, tight, well controlled bass, and slightly set back mids, but in the case of the Yggy no one preferred the Hydra and they did with several other dacs.
You would certainly want to listen for yourself as to whether a Hydra Z would be a good move if you own a Yggy.
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You mean USB beat the Hydra I presume? You may have mistyped.
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Maybe time for schiit to design a Yggdrasil analog board V2?
There are solid reasons why Schiit did what they did. It's an engineering issue and one that is better understood if you look at the AD5791 datasheets. (I'm not going to spell it out).
Craig and I have looked at the Yggy boards and yes, we can do something interesting. However, interesting doesn't necessarily mean better. And then it's a matter of how interesting. The best way would involve custom made transformers and the Yggy would end up the size of a mini-fridge.
It is what it is. For $10K, you can have EC Studio with an Yggy, or an MSB Analog and a CMOY. Of course you can always spend $20K.
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Can I pair the MSB analog with an O2 amp instead? MSBO2 sounds better then MSBCMOY for some reason.
On a serious note, I think a lot of reviewers forget to factor price when comparing gears. How about me doing a review of sound blaster x7 vs Audio-Gd master7+9.
Yggdrasil should be compared to $2000-$2500 range dacs.
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Nah, I think it's fair since we explicitly stated our experiences. It's just comparing our experiences and methodologies in absolute terms to the newer version of the DAC in question using their methodologies just offers an apple to oranges comparison.
I have no problem comparing an ODAC to a Bricasti. In fact, we did that as it's on the chart. Performance is performance and that's what ultimately matters. Price is up to the consumer to put into context.
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Can someone contact this guy for me on HF: http://www.head-fi.org/u/21878/Golden-Ears (http://www.head-fi.org/u/21878/Golden-Ears)
I lost his contact info.
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I dropped him a line with your email and asked him to contact you.
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You mean USB beat the Hydra I presume? You may have mistyped.
Correct and corrected, I really need to proof read more closely.
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See how Ti Engineer "Rochey" replies(page2, post14) on the NRND status of the good R2R PCM1704 dac chip: :spank:
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-line-level/255358-what-so-unique-about-pcm1795.html
NRND:
A product that is NRND (Not Recommended for New Designs) is in production and available, with no obsolescence scheduled. However, we recommend against using these parts for new designs because there are better or more economical alternatives, or because demand for the part is decreasing. We list alternatives when possible. For additional assistance in alternative designs, please contact technical support.
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There are solid reasons why Schiit did what they did. It's an engineering issue and one that is better understood if you look at the AD5791 datasheets. (I'm not going to spell it out).
Craig and I have looked at the Yggy boards and yes, we can do something interesting. However, interesting doesn't necessarily mean better. And then it's a matter of how interesting. The best way would involve custom made transformers and the Yggy would end up the size of a mini-fridge.
It is what it is. For $10K, you can have EC Studio with an Yggy, or an MSB Analog and a CMOY. Of course you can always spend $20K.
would this apply to the gungnir board as well?
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Without the Amanero, since that's very new in Kingwa's stable.
I know that Zach (ZMF) recently ordered the Master-11. I'm hoping to hear it sometime this month.
Oh I see. Does the Amanero module make a big difference? I am not familiar with these different USB interfaces (Audio-GD also has another USB upgrade called TXCO but is supposedly inferior to Amanero). Excuse my ignorance, but are these in any way similar to the USB Gen 3 that the Yggy uses, or is it more like the Wyrd?
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Yggdrasil should be compared to $2000-$2500 range dacs.
Purrin's Chart doesn't list the DACs according to price, rather according to absolute performance.
Hence price ranges are irrelevant ….
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Purrin's Chart doesn't list the DACs according to price, rather according to absolute performance.
Hence price ranges are irrelevant ….
::) What's the colour-coding for?
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Colour Coding at the bottom of the chart:
RED = Float it down the LA river walk the plank2
ORANGE = Poor value, poor performance, or combination of both :spank:
BLUE = Good value :)p7
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ne, he used USB for most of the review. Yggy's Achilles heal. He mentioned it's much closer to the old Analog DAC usb
Has anybody tried the Yggdrasil with other USB/SPDIF converters such as:
Empirical Audio Off Ramp
Berkeley Alpha USB
Audiophile
M2Tech HiFace
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Purrin's Chart doesn't list the DACs according to price, rather according to absolute performance.
Hence price ranges are irrelevant ….
Colour Coding at the bottom of the chart:
RED = Float it down the LA river walk the plank2
ORANGE = Poor value, poor performance, or combination of both :spank:
BLUE = Good value :)p7
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you appear to be contradicting yourself.
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Has anybody tried the Yggdrasil with other USB/SPDIF converters such as:
Empirical Audio Off Ramp
Berkeley Alpha USB
Audiophile
M2Tech HiFace
I used to have Sonicweld Diverter (with Linear power supply). I prefer using it to ygg bnc to usb when in burning-in process till about 300hrs. After that, prefer usb and sell Diverter after.
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Purrin's Chart doesn't list the DACs according to price, rather according to absolute performance.
Hence price ranges are irrelevant ….
Quote from: joeexp on Today at 02:46:48 AM
Colour Coding at the bottom of the chart:
RED = Float it down the LA river walk the plank2
ORANGE = Poor value, poor performance, or combination of both :spank:
BLUE = Good value :)p7
Maybe I'm misunderstanding, but you appear to be contradicting yourself.
For each DAC
- chart position ignores price and reflects absolute performance only
- color pays attention to both price and absolute performance
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For each DAC
- chart position ignores price and reflects absolute performance only
- color pays attention to both price and absolute performance
:)p2 That's what I thought.
Waiting to see some to 'redactions' converted to updates. popcorn
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I used to have Sonicweld Diverter (with Linear power supply). I prefer using it to ygg bnc to usb when in burning-in process till about 300hrs. After that, prefer usb and sell Diverter after.
I have yet to find a DAC that doesn't in some way benefit from an Offramp. When I owned the Audeophilleo, I felt similarly. The PWD +Bridge, as I remember it, was the least to benefit. In most cases, the advantages are considerable and palpable. I would be surprised if the Yggy or any DAC for that matter had surpassing USB quality. It would certainly be welcome.
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So the GMB is better than Theta V/Va and Master 7? I'll be saving for the GMB now instead of the Yggy! headbang
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So the GMB is better than Theta V/Va and Master 7? I'll be saving for the GMB now instead of the Yggy! headbang
Oh, boy, questions like that are pungent. Better is not a word that belongs. It's a silly superlative that punctures through any efforts at discerning nuance and probing inquiry. What's "better" for you, is the only relevant question. What type of presentation are you going for? Is your gear capable of bringing the "x" factor out of a DAC? What's of greater importance: probing detail or pinpoint ambient cues? A colored sound or flat as a pancake? I mean, damn, there are dozens of important questions to ask, and seldom do the answers to those questions definitively lead to an answer of what's "better". Sorry friend, don't mean to bite your head off, but take it from someone who has owned nearly a dozen high end DAC's in the past two years...you're asking the wrong question.
*Just to qualify the above remarks, here's a real world scenario:
Marv and Anax foam at the mouth for resolution. They love gear that digs deep and can disentomb the details from a recording. That is a priority FOR THEM. My priorities lay elsewhere. I don't need to know if Miles Davis had gas in Tokyo circa 1975. Me, I'm a nitwit for tonality. I love what I perceive to be a perfect timbrel imprint. For this reason, I preferred the Spectral to the Theta. It is MY preference and BETTER for me (therefore I own the Spectral and not the Theta).
I also own a Lampizator, which Marv doesn't like. I sold a Meitner MA1 in favor of it. It's "better" for me, because I'm a sucker for rock-stable images. I also like big, bold and clear. He hears treble hash (which I had on a previous unit). He also hears a strident, digital signature, which I DON'T. This may be do to a variance in units (Mine is 5th Gen, LV 5, custom outfitted with i2s and used with an Offramp). I know he didn't use an Offramp, nor i2s, nor a Gen. 5. Still, it wouldn't matter, because it just so happens that I don't hear what he does. It all leads to one thing; forget "better". Figure out what you like and then get the unit which most encapsulates those qualities.
Harangue over...
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Has anybody tried the Yggdrasil with other USB/SPDIF converters such as:
Empirical Audio Off Ramp
Berkeley Alpha USB
Audiophile
M2Tech HiFace
If you mean audiophileo, then yes we've gone through all of them with various DACs. Impressions are spread out around the forum somewhere. You can see the OR5 and Alpha USB referenced in the cart btw.
Look, the USB on the Yggy isn't bad. In fact, it's one or two level up over prior iterations being offered from Schiit and other manufacturers years ago. We are just talking about absolute performance here relative to other inputs.
This reminds me when I started telling people the Leckerton USB was okay but performed best as an amp with another DAC. People assumed USB was terrible. It's fine, just not the best it has to offer.
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So the GMB is better than Theta V/Va and Master 7? I'll be saving for the GMB now instead of the Yggy! headbang
In my opinion yes. The old Theta has nothing on the GMB except slightly more impact. I got rid of my Gen V for this reason.
As an aside, I know a few Gen V owners have commented that the Gen V does certain things better than Yggy like bass slam and heft, but I tend to disagree. The Theta Gen V is simply bassier (and more distorted), hence the greater bass slam (and warmth). My situation is quite different in that I don't run only headphones. I also run DIY speakers where the woofers are EQ'd and amped separately. I find bass impact and slam of Yggy to equal but not exceed Gen V. The bass is much cleaner on Yggy, so maybe the extra mush of the Gen V adds a heft effect.
ADD: Master 7 even via USB to i2s gizmos is not competitive. I know the Yggy has been criticized for "greyness" - the Master 7 is even worse in this regard.
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In my opinion yes. The old Theta has nothing on the GMB except slightly more impact. I got rid of my Gen V for this reason.
As an aside, I know a few Gen V owners have commented that the Gen V does certain things better than Yggy like bass slam and heft, but I tend to disagree. The Theta Gen V is simply bassier (and more distorted), hence the greater bass slam (and warmth). My situation is quite different in that I don't run only headphones. I also run DIY speakers where the woofers are EQ'd and amped separately. I find bass impact and slam of Yggy to equal but not exceed Gen V. The bass is much cleaner on Yggy, so maybe the extra mush adds a heft effect.
x2 IME
Not to mention the M7's USB is horrific compared to the Yggy.
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Like on the M7.
Hooked up the GMB to my desktop setup (Focal Solo6Be, Ikea Desk, Primacoustic stabilizers) using the Proceed AVP as anolog preamp. And suddenly I heard music :-DD.
If I'm not too lazy/busy, I could actually compare the Gen V to the GMB.
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Did you get your GMB already?!
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Thanks Marv, Anax and Clem. GMB will be the future wife of my Rok! :)p7
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Did you get your GMB already?!
Sure did. Once I confirmed with Jason it would have no problem pairing with passive preamps, I bought it just before I left the show.
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Makes me wonder what kind of dac chip does MSB use. Nobody has open up those modules before.
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Performance is performance and that's what ultimately matters. Price is up to the consumer to put into context.
Indeed.
Discussion of price within the context of performance might be a lot healthier than the other way around.
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Audio-Gd recently upgraded their crappy USB input to amanero. So it's not as bad as before.
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Seriously? Yay Purrin! Way to go! Props to you dude!
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I have yet to find a DAC that doesn't in some way benefit from an Offramp. When I owned the Audeophilleo, I felt similarly. The PWD +Bridge, as I remember it, was the least to benefit. In most cases, the advantages are considerable and palpable. I would be surprised if the Yggy or any DAC for that matter had surpassing USB quality. It would certainly be welcome.
I use the same Linear Power Supply on my current setup of ygg using its usb input. Maybe it improves its usb performance, but I don't know for sure. I use Paul Pang USB card feed by the same LPS as well. Comparing that with Diverter in chain, I did prefered ygg usb.
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Seriously? Yay Purrin! Way to go! Props to you dude!
lol
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I'm guessing the Gungnir MB is [redacted] in the chart. Wondering what [redacted^2] is. :-S
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Guessing a multi-bit Bifrost but this is only my guess.
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Note 6 - pre-production unit?
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Guessing a multi-bit Bifrost but this is only my guess.
Yes. This has been said multiple times around the board. Always be wary of pre-production units though.
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Marvey, I suspect the top of this chart will need quite some space if you ever hear the MSB Signature 5 stack (I2S from MSB UMT LAN). I have enough time with it, to say there are no favours to Yggy or Theta V A to compare them with this animal. There's no point. It's not even a matter of interfaces or transports, the gap is too big. But then again we're talking about 40k, so it better did something for this asking price. What's worse though is that there are upgrades to the Signature 5 I am hearing, then Diamond 5 and Select DAC models. WTF those do, I am not even sure I want to know. It's too much already.
Back to more fathomable lands. Now what I need to hear is the MSB Analog with signature PSU and UMT LAN I2s or Network Renderer, vs Quad USB (my Analog is not at home until next week). And yes Theta V A, for example, scales well when fed from the UMT AES via LAN. But it's only so much it can do with 90s tech. Damn enjoyable sound though.
I will have Sorrodje's Total DAC A1 here soon - that should be interesting too. I have just the right transport for it.
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I know Marv has some pretty interesting technical thoughts about the TotalDACs. :)
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That's why it's gonna be interesting.
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Negura,
They're trying to get a hold of this person: http://www.head-fi.org/t/772229/high-quality-dac-and-high-quality-mini-monitor-shootout#post_11712136 (http://www.head-fi.org/t/772229/high-quality-dac-and-high-quality-mini-monitor-shootout#post_11712136)
Too bad his shoot out was the same day as the changfest. This should blow up the list even more if all those dacs are there to be listened and analyzed.
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The Total DAC A1 is the now discontinued little brother. I hope to eventually hear the Total DAC D1 super-uber one too and there is a slight chance of that happening if the right stars align at the right time.
What I hope to get out of this:
- how the A1 fares vs the Theta V A. Depending what happens I might throw in the ring a bigger boy or not. I am mindful of Sorrodje too. :)
- how the A1 scales with a couple of transports options I have here (the options being average, good and better sounding)
- get an idea of the TotalDAC "sound".
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Marv (and 6Moons review) pointed out the A1 might be limited to about 14 ENOB. Not that it will necessarily sound bad by any means or gloss over too many details, but, hell, even the old TDA1541A chip can do better than that in a good implementation for much less money (stuff like the PCM63, even better). I think that new DIY discrete DAC board (soekris) suffers the same issues potential issues as the TotalDAC.
The higher end TotalDAC models should have higher ENOB due to the use of additional boards for each channel.
I'd still LOVE to hear a TotalDAC product, even that A1, but damn are they expensive...I'd probably like the sound regardless of it's absolute accuracy.
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Maybe there is also an opportunity to have a look/listen to the Metrum Acoustics Pavane and the new Metrum Musette and see where they would be on this chart ….. p:/
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You wanna buy one and send it to me for evaluation? I've had quite a bit of Metrum DAC experience. ;)
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Only if I can borrow your MSB Analog in the meantime! :)p13
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Er, you'd have to ask someone that has an MSB Analog DAC. :P I'd happily lend my Model S, however, to anyone that might lend me a new Metrum DAC. That would be fun.
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I think that new DIY discrete DAC board (soekris) suffers the same issues [>14-15bit precision]
Vs Yggdrasil I can second this, still the Soekris (approprietly moded) has some raw energy that's absent from any other dac I have heard.
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Any thoughts on the Emotiva DC-1?
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Anyone here have any experience with the DCS Debussy in comparison with the Yggy, MSB Analog and Gumby? =)
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Sure. Compared to the latest MSB Analog w/Quad here: http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review
Or look-up my review of the MSB Analog on Head-Fi. Not the same level, but that doesn't make Yggy a less nice DAC for the money.
On this topic: Has anyone compared the Yggdrasil properly and directly with the Auralic Vega? A friend owning the Vega (I recommended him to purchase Yggy), recently received the Yggdrasil and completed warm-up. Listening for the first few hours comparatively, saying he's not impressed with the Yggdrasil would be understating it. Yes, both using USB. Unless he is doing something wrong, I am very surprised if Yggy is not matching up to the Vega. I personally have not heard Vega properly at home, so I can't really comment.
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Sure. Compared to the latest MSB Analog w/Quad here: http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review
Or look-up my review of the MSB Analog on Head-Fi. Not the same level, but that doesn't make Yggy a less nice DAC for the money.
On this topic: Has anyone compared the Yggdrasil properly and directly with the Auralic Vega? A friend owning the Vega (I recommended him to purchase Yggy), recently received the Yggdrasil and completed warm-up. Listening for the first few hours comparatively, saying he's not impressed with the Yggdrasil would be understating it. Yes, both using USB. Unless he is doing something wrong, I am very surprised if Yggy is not matching up to the Vega. I personally have not heard Vega properly at home, so I can't really comment.
I remember that review, not going to comment much till i hear the yggy for the first time this weekend. Im mainly looking for reviews concerning the Debussy in comparison to the yggy , analog etc as it is one that i have, courtesy of a great deal.
Let me know if he's looking to let the yggy go =)
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Sorry, I realize I partially misread your comment. Still a bit shocked with the comments from the Vega owner giving me a blow-by-blow report.
Some comments here: http://www.msbtech.com/reviews/reviewsHome.php?Return=msb
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Anyone here have any experience with the DCS Debussy in comparison with the Yggy, MSB Analog and Gumby? =)
Not against those specifically, but I have heard it against the Empirical Overdrive SE, and the OD is better. I would expect Yggy, Analog, and Gumby to all > Debussy.
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Compared to the latest MSB Analog w/Quad here: http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review
I'm taking this one with a big bowl of salt, mostly based on other of his reviews on things.
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To expand on some comments I made in the main Yggdrasil thread (and in the shoutbox), I believe we all may need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask ourselves, "Does the music make me feel good?"
If the answer is, "Yes," then you're probably fine with the DAC you have, whether it costs $100 or $10,000.
Why do I bother posting this? Because we're all susceptible to audiophilia nervosa, and it's easy to stoke this condition to seriously paranoiac levels. And because I know how you feel. I used to be all about finding that last 0.0035% of performance. It got bad enough I had to step out of audio for a while, because I lost perspective...I was spending silly amounts of money on audio gear, having less fun listening...and I had forgot how rich and varied life could be.
So, as an antidote to the audiophila nervosa, here are some things to help you relax:
1. When you read posts like, "Yeah, the Arglebargle XYZ was great and wonderful, but the Scintillant Megacomplex can transport you to even higher levels of enjoyment (for 5X to 20X more)," ask yourself: "Do I really want to spend car-like money on a component? Wouldn't it be better to buy an engagement ring for the one I love? Or learn to fly a plane...in Tahiti...while taking a month off? Or go to cooking school in France and tour wine country on the side? Or fly all over the world and go to a dozen amazing, once-in-a-lifetime concerts? There are many more things to do.
2. When you read posts like, "Hey, I heard one guy said his current Gammanator 12 beats the Arglebargle XYZ he's borrowing," be sure to remind yourself that humanity is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal. If he owns one and is borrowing another, especially if the borrowed product cost less, the expected result is that the borrowed product is inferior. The natural reaction is to justify the investment that's already been sunk.
3. When you hear someone say, "Well, I love this product, it's the most amazing thing I've heard," and then, a few weeks later, say, "Well, except it needs an audiophile fuse and some quantum damping on the chips," or "Well, I think the power supply topology isn't the best, and if that was just fixed, it would be perfect," remind yourself, "This is just one person, and where are they getting their information from anyway? Did they really A/B the results? Or is it even possible to A/B the results? Or is this just speculation to cause more audiophile nervosa?
So what's the bottom line? It's simple. How does the music make you feel? If you're good, then the component's good. And that's something that nobody can argue with. Sit back, relax, and enjoy some great music!
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Brownie point. Now if only I could afford the Yggy and squeeze that last 5% out of my setup...
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To expand on some comments I made in the main Yggdrasil thread (and in the shoutbox), I believe we all may need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask ourselves, "Does the music make me feel good?"
If the answer is, "Yes," then you're probably fine with the DAC you have, whether it costs $100 or $10,000.
Why do I bother posting this? Because we're all susceptible to audiophilia nervosa, and it's easy to stoke this condition to seriously paranoiac levels. And because I know how you feel. I used to be all about finding that last 0.0035% of performance. It got bad enough I had to step out of audio for a while, because I lost perspective...I was spending silly amounts of money on audio gear, having less fun listening...and I had forgot how rich and varied life could be.
So, as an antidote to the audiophila nervosa, here are some things to help you relax:
1. When you read posts like, "Yeah, the Arglebargle XYZ was great and wonderful, but the Scintillant Megacomplex can transport you to even higher levels of enjoyment (for 5X to 20X more)," ask yourself: "Do I really want to spend car-like money on a component? Wouldn't it be better to buy an engagement ring for the one I love? Or learn to fly a plane...in Tahiti...while taking a month off? Or go to cooking school in France and tour wine country on the side? Or fly all over the world and go to a dozen amazing, once-in-a-lifetime concerts? There are many more things to do.
2. When you read posts like, "Hey, I heard one guy said his current Gammanator 12 beats the Arglebargle XYZ he's borrowing," be sure to remind yourself that humanity is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal. If he owns one and is borrowing another, especially if the borrowed product cost less, the expected result is that the borrowed product is inferior. The natural reaction is to justify the investment that's already been sunk.
3. When you hear someone say, "Well, I love this product, it's the most amazing thing I've heard," and then, a few weeks later, say, "Well, except it needs an audiophile fuse and some quantum damping on the chips," or "Well, I think the power supply topology isn't the best, and if that was just fixed, it would be perfect," remind yourself, "This is just one person, and where are they getting their information from anyway? Did they really A/B the results? Or is it even possible to A/B the results? Or is this just speculation to cause more audiophile nervosa?
So what's the bottom line? It's simple. How does the music make you feel? If you're good, then the component's good. And that's something that nobody can argue with. Sit back, relax, and enjoy some great music!
Great post! Now get on your next idea - The RUNS: Rubidium Ultra Numerical oScillator. Clearly Yggdrasil would be 500X better with an external atomic master clock. I don't care what it costs.
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Anyone else find that the Yggdrasil's gen3 usb to be too "digital sounding"? i.e. lacking smoothness, lacking midrange warmth, overly bright in the treble(tonally)?
When fed with other sources(AES or Coax), things got smoother, warmer and not as digitally bright.
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Anyone else find that the Yggdrasil's gen3 usb to be too "digital"? i.e. lacking smoothness, lacking midrange warmth, overly bright in the treble?
You're trolling, right?
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Yes, yes, and yes Jason. We've been having the exact same discussion on IRC for a while now.
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To expand on some comments I made in the main Yggdrasil thread (and in the shoutbox), I believe we all may need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask ourselves, "Does the music make me feel good?"
So basically you're asking for a sanity check, right? What are you, nuts?
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Anyone here tried a Dangerous Source? It gets pretty good reviews in the pro audio scene but I'm not sure how it compares to the other DACs considered here. Similarly, I know nobody really likes the Benchmark DAC1 but has anyone tried the DAC2? Just looking for a decent compact unit, with a built-in (or separate if necessary) headphone amp that will work well with IEMs like the UERM.
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Sure. Compared to the latest MSB Analog w/Quad here: http://headmania.org/2015/08/18/schiit-yggdrasil-dac-review
Or look-up my review of the MSB Analog on Head-Fi. Not the same level, but that doesn't make Yggy a less nice DAC for the money.
On this topic: Has anyone compared the Yggdrasil properly and directly with the Auralic Vega? A friend owning the Vega (I recommended him to purchase Yggy), recently received the Yggdrasil and completed warm-up. Listening for the first few hours comparatively, saying he's not impressed with the Yggdrasil would be understating it. Yes, both using USB. Unless he is doing something wrong, I am very surprised if Yggy is not matching up to the Vega. I personally have not heard Vega properly at home, so I can't really comment.
Sorry, I realize I partially misread your comment. Still a bit shocked with the comments from the Vega owner giving me a blow-by-blow report.
Some comments here: http://www.msbtech.com/reviews/reviewsHome.php?Return=msb
PWD>Vega here: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1364.msg35788.html#msg35788
Ergo, Yggy>PWD>Vega. I'm not sure wtf you guys are doing with your USB upstreams. How many of you guys are using Macs? I'm curious because that's the worst I've heard Yggy USB unless you guys are jamming peanut butter in the cables.
Vega>Yggy is a bunch of BS. Vega exact mode is a joke and clearly tells you they don't know femtos like Lh Labs.
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as documented elsewhere, my iMac 2009 has (always had) noise on the USB lines.
has always happened over the years when moving from Bifrost, to Gungnir, to Yggy.
adding Uptone Audio Regen right at the Yggy, and poof- no more (slight) buzzing when no music playing and amp cranked,
clearer tones, soundstage, bass, etc.
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Jason and I are completely at opposite ends on this. You can be critical and appreciate the finer aspects of audio and still have a life. Maybe somebody would rather enjoy their entire music catalog anew rather than deal with flight delays, rude service, sunburn and boredom after staring at the same beach and ocean after 2-3 days. If anyone really cares, they can actually do both btw.
Personally I don't believe in settling for just okay or good enough, not part of my Asian genetic makeup. Resting on laurels is what gets you decades of decrepit American junk cars from Detroit. Nothing is perfect which is why we can always improve and seek progress as a species. I'll borrow a line from Toyota when they decided to join GM in making a joint factory here in Fremont, California (now the Tesla factory). When Toyota asked the GM reps what kind of problems they were having, the GM losers said they had no problems. Toyota's reply?
No problem is a BIG problem.
Everyone has their own right answer. That's just mine. So go ahead and exclusively use your phone for audio if that makes you happy...or don't.
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Anyone here tried a Dangerous Source? It gets pretty good reviews in the pro audio scene but I'm not sure how it compares to the other DACs considered here. Similarly, I know nobody really likes the Benchmark DAC1 but has anyone tried the DAC2? Just looking for a decent compact unit, with a built-in (or separate if necessary) headphone amp that will work well with IEMs like the UERM.
Yes, I used a Dangerous Source for many months. Beats the Benchmark Dac 1 easily to my ears. I like it better than lots of under $750 or so dacs and prefer it to the Eastern Electric Minimax, Zdac, Blue Circle and others. Moving on up to something over $1k though and it gets outclassed if you select the right dac.
Headphone section is just okay and a bit better than the dac 1. Not quite up to the standards of most good solid separate HP amps, though.
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To expand on some comments I made in the main Yggdrasil thread (and in the shoutbox), I believe we all may need to take a step back, take a deep breath, and ask ourselves, "Does the music make me feel good?"
If the answer is, "Yes," then you're probably fine with the DAC you have, whether it costs $100 or $10,000.
Why do I bother posting this? Because we're all susceptible to audiophilia nervosa, and it's easy to stoke this condition to seriously paranoiac levels. And because I know how you feel. I used to be all about finding that last 0.0035% of performance. It got bad enough I had to step out of audio for a while, because I lost perspective...I was spending silly amounts of money on audio gear, having less fun listening...and I had forgot how rich and varied life could be.
So, as an antidote to the audiophila nervosa, here are some things to help you relax:
1. When you read posts like, "Yeah, the Arglebargle XYZ was great and wonderful, but the Scintillant Megacomplex can transport you to even higher levels of enjoyment (for 5X to 20X more)," ask yourself: "Do I really want to spend car-like money on a component? Wouldn't it be better to buy an engagement ring for the one I love? Or learn to fly a plane...in Tahiti...while taking a month off? Or go to cooking school in France and tour wine country on the side? Or fly all over the world and go to a dozen amazing, once-in-a-lifetime concerts? There are many more things to do.
2. When you read posts like, "Hey, I heard one guy said his current Gammanator 12 beats the Arglebargle XYZ he's borrowing," be sure to remind yourself that humanity is not a rational animal, but a rationalizing animal. If he owns one and is borrowing another, especially if the borrowed product cost less, the expected result is that the borrowed product is inferior. The natural reaction is to justify the investment that's already been sunk.
3. When you hear someone say, "Well, I love this product, it's the most amazing thing I've heard," and then, a few weeks later, say, "Well, except it needs an audiophile fuse and some quantum damping on the chips," or "Well, I think the power supply topology isn't the best, and if that was just fixed, it would be perfect," remind yourself, "This is just one person, and where are they getting their information from anyway? Did they really A/B the results? Or is it even possible to A/B the results? Or is this just speculation to cause more audiophile nervosa?
So what's the bottom line? It's simple. How does the music make you feel? If you're good, then the component's good. And that's something that nobody can argue with. Sit back, relax, and enjoy some great music!
Agreed that's why I don't buy your over priced shit :P
Vintage is just as good for my portapros
* fun fact every time I've talked to Jason at meet he's give me a WTF! Face :)p13
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* fun fact every time I've talked to Jason at meet he's give me a WTF! Face :)p13
Don't we all everytime we talk to you? :P
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Well yeah but Jason's face is priceless
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I used to be all about finding that last 0.0035% of performance. It got bad enough I had to step out of audio for a while, because I lost perspective...I was spending silly amounts of money on audio gear, having less fun listening...and I had forgot how rich and varied life could be.
So, as an antidote to the audiophila nervosa, here are some things to help you relax:
1. When you read posts like, "Yeah, the Arglebargle XYZ was great and wonderful, but the Scintillant Megacomplex can transport you to even higher levels of enjoyment (for 5X to 20X more)," ask yourself: "Do I really want to spend car-like money on a component? Wouldn't it be better to buy an engagement ring for the one I love? Or learn to fly a plane...in Tahiti...while taking a month off? Or go to cooking school in France and tour wine country on the side? Or fly all over the world and go to a dozen amazing, once-in-a-lifetime concerts? There are many more things to do.
So, in other words, the guys that are enjoying life,
with all the money that poured into their funds,
from the "audiophila nervosa" fools,
Are owners of big the big price dacs...
:p
I myself also rather spend $10k on life as well, rather than on a dac.
Especially when a dac like ygyy comes along thats going to arguably give me the best my current setup can deliver...
So far I have only heard different, in a good way, but not better.
When I hear comments of other dacs being better, red flags go off in my mind untill I can hear for myself...
Because I can be sure that someones "better" is at this level just "different".
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...
Has anyone compared the Yggdrasil properly and directly with the Auralic Vega?
A friend owning the Vega (I recommended him to purchase Yggy), recently received the Yggdrasil and completed warm-up. Listening for the first few hours comparatively, saying he's not impressed with the Yggdrasil would be understating it. Yes, both using USB. Unless he is doing something wrong, I am very surprised if Yggy is not matching up to the Vega. I personally have not heard Vega properly at home, so I can't really comment.
I would question his friendship, or trust, or ears with that position..
That friend just made you question what you say you herd in yggy, compared to your MSB..
It has been known/posted for some time here how the Vega sounds.
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Edit web error
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Well after hearing the Yggy he actually thinks my descriptions of it were very similar to what he is hearing... which is even stranger. Even when I don't agree with someone in preferences, most of the time I can at least understand where they are coming from, if I hear the same gear properly. I did not hear the Vega in conditions that can allow me to comment on it comparatively. However I was not impressed with the Vega/Taurus stack I heard in a quiet room with the HD800s. But what is also true, the Taurus never impressed me whenever I heard it (thankfully he did not purchase a Taurus after my vivid impressions of it). So all a bit puzzling. Perhaps how there are R2R fans, there are Delta/Sigma lovers...
Nothing changed in how I rate the Yggdrasil. It's a really great DAC. This so far only proves there isn't something that can please everyone.
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Perhaps how there are R2R fans, there are Delta/Sigma lovers?
Many S-D dacs I have heard produce artefacts that can perhaps make some simple music more interesting. Yulong DA8 was best example in my possession.
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Yes, I used a Dangerous Source for many months. Beats the Benchmark Dac 1 easily to my ears. I like it better than lots of under $750 or so dacs and prefer it to the Eastern Electric Minimax, Zdac, Blue Circle and others. Moving on up to something over $1k though and it gets outclassed if you select the right dac.
Headphone section is just okay and a bit better than the dac 1. Not quite up to the standards of most good solid separate HP amps, though.
Thanks very much. Any thoughts on what would be a good upgrade DAC and amp for the UERM specifically (no need for it to be portable)? A fairly compact unit would be good, as would pre-outs on the DAC or amp so I can use speakers too. Similar to the Source's features, I suppose, although I don't mind separates. Not looking to spend too much at this stage.
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Where does the multibit Gungnir sit on the charts? Is that the redacted?
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... yes
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Thanks very much. Any thoughts on what would be a good upgrade DAC and amp for the UERM specifically (no need for it to be portable)? A fairly compact unit would be good, as would pre-outs on the DAC or amp so I can use speakers too. Similar to the Source's features, I suppose, although I don't mind separates. Not looking to spend too much at this stage.
Afraid, I am not going to be much help since I have not heard the uerm. The Schiit Asgard2, and Lyr2 are both really fine sounding amps for the money. As for dacs, depends on total budget I suppose. X-Sabre, MB Gungnir both come to mind for mid priced.
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on the topic of audiophilia nervosa:
If you have ample time(maybe during drive to work, jogging etc), do listen to these presentation. Really practical and potentially money saving(audiophile wise) advice/tips from him.
e.g. at 31m:32sec of the RMAF13 video, he recommends you to set aside time to listen live music, so that you can judge your home audio equipment's sound quality better.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrEnMrR43Ao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_I4RnGRLEs
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How many of you are unable/unwilling to use delta-sigma DACs once you own an R2R DAC?
I'll be getting a GMB, and I'm wondering how I'll find using the M-DAC + Valhalla 2 + HD650 combo as my secondary rig.
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Well designed R2r dac does less evil than well designed sigma delta dac.
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How many of you are unable/unwilling to use delta-sigma DACs once you own an R2R DAC?
I'll be getting a GMB, and I'm wondering how I'll find using the M-DAC + Valhalla 2 + HD650 combo as my secondary rig.
The next DACs I will buy will probably be R2R, however I still enjoy my NFB-1DAC with my LS50 and PM-2. Not so with my HD800 though.
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How many of you are unable/unwilling to use delta-sigma DACs once you own an R2R DAC?
I'll be getting a GMB, and I'm wondering how I'll find using the M-DAC + Valhalla 2 + HD650 combo as my secondary rig.
I have a gumby en route, so I can't comment directly until next week, but nearly everyone here I can think of that has (or has experienced) a good R/2R dac (Yggy, gumby, theta data, transdac, etc), also has (or is soon to have, or has listened to and commented favorably on) a Geek Out V2 (whatever iteration). Since the GOV2 uses d/s sabre chip, I can only guess the answer is "no one". Like balanced / SE amps, its mostly about implementation than dac type. I am not suggesting specific performance comparison; I just highly doubt that listening to good/great R/2R will make all d/s unlistenable.
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Anyone have any thoughts on the Meier Audio Corda Daccord? I can get a used one from someone fairly cheap (~$300). The Audio-GD I had half on the hook fell through.
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300$ ? that's a Bargain. Even New it's a bargain.
Loved that DAC and always regretted to sell it to fund the totaldac. And this would be probably my primary choice if I was after a D/S dac . Not compared to More Hi end Offers though . I Just found it sounds right without any Digital Nastiness and offers great features. I'd say it's neutral/uncolored with a touch of analog sound. Resolving but not harsh. Probably a bit lean for people used to R2R goodness.
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Thanks mang. I'm getting pretty psyched about getting into R2R but that might be a solid deal to tide me over.
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I think that this topic needs to be stickied or something. It's reference.
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Done and updated.
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Done and updated.
Sweet, nice to see Gumby get its name and place of honor.
Is it possible to build a chart like this for amps? Are amps too headphone picky to be amenable to this sort of comparison?
Cheers.
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You could do SS amps. Tube amps would have a wide range based on tube selection. Certainly possible.
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A chart for amps would be pretty helpful. But someone else would have to do it, Purrin doesn't comment much on amps anymore due to his MOT status.
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You could do SS amps. Tube amps would have a wide range based on tube selection. Certainly possible.
I envision it being a sort of scatter plot with radii around each point. Each point like a layer so you can wobble them around later as needed.
But since Marv works for EC, it might not be kosher for him to do a chart for amps (unless he leaves all EC amps off of it).
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I'm pretty sure he'll hold firm about laying off amp comparisons. That said, he doesen't have to be the one to do it :)p6
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I've got to agree with lm4der's point, about amp comparisons; things like impedance matching rarely matter for dacs; the main consideration is the sound.
But an amp has a particular job to do, and first it has to match well with the transducer that it's connected to.
So, this makes it much more complicated to make comparisons; each amp would have to be tested with at least 3 different headphones (just to cover the basic impedance range)!
Even with what should be similar (as an electrical load) headphones, one amp may sound better on one set, whilst another sounds better with the other. All because one pair's electrical characteristics will slightly favour one amp over another! The electrical load difference, between different headphones is just too big.
It'd be an interesting read if it were possible though.
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But an amp has a particular job to do, and first it has to match well with the transducer that it's connected to.
That's basically what I was worried about, but perhaps that is Anax's point in saying that this could be done for SS amps. I believe that most SS amps these days are < 1 ohm Zout. Does that mean that impedance\damping interactions are almost nill, and therefore doable?
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The electrical load difference, between different headphones is just too big.
I don't see a significant issue in this. There are exeptions, but i'd think mostly in the lower end of amps.
Every other pirate has or has owned HD6xx or HD800, add some decent ortho in the mix and results should translate well.
Even otl-s seem to work well with some orthos. Overrated this output-z thing. Sennheiser amp (~50ohm) is anemic as shite in bass to HD800 compared to a DIY Cavalli i have here with out z in milliohms. Leaque matters, imo.
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hello,
an amp chart would be awesome.
perhaps one that takes into consideration best parings/most parings (ie. what amps at what price points would be a jack of all trades solution.)
if you don't have the means/space for multiple amps, what should be on the short list for a one or two amp solution? (to drive a variety of cans well. albeit not perfectly.)
this could be a very good way to prevent people doing the crazy side-grade thing.
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what should be on the short list for a one or two amp solution? (to drive a variety of cans well. albeit not perfectly.)
I'm guessing SS and hybrids? That should cover both dynamics and ortho.
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I don't see a significant issue in this. There are exeptions, but i'd think mostly in the lower end of amps.
Every other pirate has or has owned HD6xx or HD800, add some decent ortho in the mix and results should translate well.
Even otl-s seem to work well with some orthos. Overrated this output-z thing. Sennheiser amp (~50ohm) is anemic as shite in bass to HD800 compared to a DIY Cavalli i have here with out z in milliohms. Leaque matters, imo.
Boom! ^This. I think it's a nice general topic for beginners, but that's not what most of us hear or talk about. We've been over the whole 120ohm IEC thing long long ago. Marv made a box and published the results somewhere many moons ago.
I'm guessing SS and hybrids? That should cover both dynamics and ortho.
I'd lean toward a hybrid as well if I was still searching for my transducer.
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If someone is disappoint with the Sennheiser HD800 bass & midrange & feels they are veiled, which of these three DAC would you guys recommend:
- Matrix X-Sabre
- Schiit Gungnir
- Concero HD
Purrin's DAC comparison here:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1afiapBDggk_9hziQywD4mIRi9vKvTb_tliQXspsm2cQ/edit#gid=0
stated the Gungnir was great with bass, though it lacked the fine details retrieval of Matrix X. He rated it overall as a better DAC. Makes it sound lik a very good pair with the HD800
The Concero HD was said to be a cheaper mini Matrix X.
On the other hand, Maxvla, on the Matrix X Sabre impressions thread, absolutely hated the Gungnir
http://www.head-fi.org/t/650686/matrix-x-sabre-dac-review-and-impression-thread/150#post_9227733
X-Sabre vs Gungnir
No contest. X-Sabre takes resolution to the next level. Smoother, more open, more detailed, more air, even better bass control and texture. No downside in upgrading from the Gungnir, except the price of course.
A few guys on the HD800 thread also recommended me these two much cheaper amps
Mousai MSD192 DAC Wolfson
http://www.amazon.com/Mousai-MSD192-Wolfson-WM8741-16-24Bit/dp/B00W5AA6SO
LITE DAC-60 24bit VACUUM TUBE DAC
http://www.cattylink.com/page157.html
Would the Gungnir & Matrix X be way above those two cheap DACs & where would the Concerto HD fit in all of that?
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The Schiit Gumby is the Gungnir with the multi-bit upg. It should significantly sound better than the regular gungnir (just read impressions around). The X-Sabre is pretty good for DS and has a overall laid back sound with good detail retrieval. It is an alternative to the gungnir, but no match to the gumby.
I'd recommend just getting the gungnir for now if you don't have enough money for the multi-bit upgrade. The gumby will get you the mid-range and bass that you're looking for with the hd800s. What amp are you using?
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What amp are you using?
Undecided.
Went through a few mid-tier ones & still contemplating between a few higher end ones.
Anyways, my end game amp will definitely be a on the warm side tube amp.
I searched some more & looks like Purrin said this about the Gungnir:
Gungnir is very hard hitting - not good with HD800's 6k peak and overall elevated treble.
So non multi-bit Gungnir is a no go?
Haven't found any used Gumby's & don't want to pay retail from Schiit's site, especially since they charge CA tax.
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Damn, saw Purrin's ranked list.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/693798/thoughts-on-a-bunch-of-dacs-and-why-delta-sigma-kinda-sucks-just-to-get-you-to-think-about-stuff
He must have been talking about the Gen 1 version when he said it was not good with the HD800?
Gungnir Gen 2 was rated well above the Matrix X Sabre.
Maybe Maxvla was talking about the Gen1 version when he trashed it comparing it to the Matrix X?
So the Gen2 version is that much better than the Gen1 version?
Especially for adding fullness to the HD800 body of bass/mids (that's the only real thing I want).
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Actually... here's how it goes:
Gen 1 and Gen 2 refer to the USB modules inside the gungnir. The Gungnir on this char refers to the gungnir with the gen 2 USB input. I believe maxvla used the Gen 1 USB input, as his post was made before the Gen 2 USB was released. Gumby, or the Multi-bit upgrade for the gungnir, is separate from the USB input upg since it is replacing the digital to analog card.
I've never tried the Gen 1 USB on the gungnir but when I had the Gen 2 usb gungnir (keep in mind... NOT gumby), with the hd800s, mods, and Vali, I found it to be fatiguing over time. YMMV. If Gumby is 90% of Yggy and slightly on the warmer side then it will no doubt do well with the hd800s.
Get a Gungnir with USB gen 2 or save up for a gumby. It'll be worth it.
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So non multi-bit Gungnir is a no go?
.
I just had one on loan to audition. It didn't suit me. it does suit others, but not all, so if you like it, that makes it very much a "yes go." I think you have done a thorough job of searching out the review/reaction posts here and elsewhere already (thanks for pointing to Maxvla's post, which could be very useful to me re decisions now postponed to sometime-in-the-future).
To my somewhat defective (but hey, I've been listening to music for over five decades) ear, it is not transparent, but has its own sound.
In USA? Take advantage of Schiit's return scheme and find out!
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Gungnir Gen 2 has been described as musical & bassy, that definitely what I am looking for to pair with the HD800.
Seems the gen 2 improved the clarity & detail & lowered the "shouty-ness" of the DAC to reasonable levels.
Reading Purrin review/rank for the gen 2 version has really shot it up to the top of my list.
Is the difference between the gen 2 & multibit upgrade as huge as the gen 1 to gen 2 upgrade was or is it much smaller?
Anyone think the Gungnir Gen 2 & a Violetric V200 be overkill for the HD800?
I don't want the soundstage to be destroyed to get the decent mids & bass I want.
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Gungnir Gen 2 has been described as musical & bassy, that definitely what I am looking for to pair with the HD800.
Seems the gen 2 improved the clarity & detail & lowered the "shouty-ness" of the DAC to reasonable levels.
Reading Purrin review/rank for the gen 2 version has really shot it up to the top of my list.
Is the difference between the gen 2 & multibit upgrade as huge as the gen 1 to gen 2 upgrade was or is it much smaller?
Anyone think the Gungnir Gen 2 & a Violetric V200 be overkill for the HD800?
I don't want the soundstage to be destroyed to get the decent mids & bass I want.
I don't know; I've not heard either, but I'll chime in anyway. I'm willing to guess that the difference, between DS Gungnir and Gumby, will be greater than between gen 1 and 2 usb inputs.
Overkill? IMHO it sounds like 'underkill'. The HD800 is supposed to be ultra revealing, and that kit probably isn't going to make them shine at their best.
Just my opinion.
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It's a gen-2 I was listening to. You might ask Kothganesh, but I think he bought that, rather than upgraded from a gen-1. Give him some time, and he might be able to tell you what it sounds like upgraded to Gumby.
To be blunt: it actually caused me discomfort. Right at the end of the two weeks it spent with me, I tried it through speakers, and thought it sounded great --- but I'm not looking for a new DAC for speaker listening.
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Gungnir Gen 2 has been described as musical & bassy, that definitely what I am looking for to pair with the HD800.
Seems the gen 2 improved the clarity & detail & lowered the "shouty-ness" of the DAC to reasonable levels.
Reading Purrin review/rank for the gen 2 version has really shot it up to the top of my list.
Is the difference between the gen 2 & multibit upgrade as huge as the gen 1 to gen 2 upgrade was or is it much smaller?
Anyone think the Gungnir Gen 2 & a Violetric V200 be overkill for the HD800?
I don't want the soundstage to be destroyed to get the decent mids & bass I want.
Not the hd800. It is overkill for the v200. As long as you are committed to that amp, don't waste your time or money.
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Gungnir Gen 2 has been described as musical & bassy, that definitely what I am looking for to pair with the HD800.
Seems the gen 2 improved the clarity & detail & lowered the "shouty-ness" of the DAC to reasonable levels.
Reading Purrin review/rank for the gen 2 version has really shot it up to the top of my list.
Is the difference between the gen 2 & multibit upgrade as huge as the gen 1 to gen 2 upgrade was or is it much smaller?
Anyone think the Gungnir Gen 2 & a Violetric V200 be overkill for the HD800?
I don't want the soundstage to be destroyed to get the decent mids & bass I want.
I have heard both the Gung 2 and MB Gung in two separate systems. I would not lassify the MB Gungnir as overly bassy. M Perhaps My listening of the Gumby was though the Moljnir 2. Perhaps compared to some lean sounding dac some might call it a bit bassy, but I think it is relatively neutral down low. Where I think it did a very good job and trumped the Gungnir 2 was the upper mids and highs. I found the Gumby to be smoother and with no grain to speak of. Very nice sound but not quite to the more spacious and maybe even a bit sweeter Yggy to my ears. For me the Yggy is still a nice step up and very revealing yet relaxing.
Agree with Anax, if you have to have a German amp with a bit rolled off upper end for the HD800s you might as well save some money over the Vio V200 and get a slightly more neutral Lake People G109 or save up for a better amp.
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It is overkill for the v200. As long as you are committed to that amp, don't waste your time or money.
How the mighty have fallen. Reading through older threads & posts from just 4-6 years ago, it was at the top on everybody's list for the HD800. How it completely smoothed the treble & added much needed bass & midrange.
Now it seems like it is a pariah in the audio circles.
Where I think it did a very good job and trumped the Gungnir 2 was the upper mids and highs. I found the Gumby to be smoother and with no grain to speak of.
The difference between the Gen 2 & the Gumby was mostly the upper region quality? So would you say the mids & low quality/quantity were about the same between the two?
I'm actually content with my HD800 uppers & I haven't even tried any of the Annax mods yet.
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How the mighty have fallen. Reading through older threads & posts from just 4-6 years ago, it was at the top on everybody's list for the HD800.
When I was on head-fi 4-6 years ago, it was never on my list. So not everybody. You've also noticed by now we aren't head-fi. They have their lists for their reasons, we have ours.
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Read through the entire thread. Definitely more clear on some things.
Just need to know how big of a jump the Gumby is over the Gen 2 Gungnir to solidify my purchase.
Is it one of those 50% higher price for 10% - 15% increase in performance? Can the owner chip in?
I'm tired of buying, auditioning & selling multiple amps & dacs. Tiered of reading through hundred of hundred of pages, spending all my free time researching & reading about other people's opinions. :vomit:
If the 50% higher costs relates to a 50% increase in performance, I might just go for broke & get the Gumby. If not I'll go with the Gen2.
Oh & has anyone seen a used Gumby price that actually SOLD?
If I buy it & don't like it, I want to know the general hit I'm going to take in selling it.
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Read through the entire thread. Definitely more clear on some things.
Just need to know how big of a jump the Gumby is over the Gen 2 Gungnir to solidify my purchase.
Is it one of those 50% higher price for 10% - 15% increase in performance? Can the owner chip in?
I'm tired of buying, auditioning & selling multiple amps & dacs. Tiered of reading through hundred of hundred of pages, spending all my free time researching & reading about other people's opinions. :vomit:
If the 50% higher costs relates to a 50% increase in performance, I might just go for broke & get the Gumby. If not I'll go with the Gen2.
Oh & has anyone seen a used Gumby price that actually SOLD?
If I buy it & don't like it, I want to know the general hit I'm going to take in selling it.
Dude. It's time to stop fuss'n and frett'n. If you've got the cash to splash, the Gumby is surely the dac to get.
No, I don't speak from first hand experience, but I am confident that my advice is good. R2R multibit is just more musical; I do know this from first hand experience, many (most) reputable commentators agree and there's some reasonable theory/science to back it up.
If it was my money, if I were looking for a new dac (and couldn't afford the Yggy), then that's what I'd get. But, I've already got a tasty bespoke replay source. So, it's just speculation.
Anyway, what are you so afraid of? Why might you not like the sound? A good dac is just simply better musical reproduction; it let's you hear the recording.
Actually, that's your most likely negative; you might find that some favourite recording don't sound so good. But as I understand it, the Schiit dacs aren't too bad for emphasising flaws; some brands can make some recordings unlistenable, but not so much Schiit.
Anyway, if you do purchase and change your mind, this is a popular, 'in demand' product; reselling won't lose you quite so much.
At the moment, choosing the dac is the easiest decision. It's what components to feed it with and connect it to, that should be causing you the most head scratching!
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Its way too early to be talking about buying a "used" MB Gungnir aka Gumby methinks. It was announced last month. Second, I have no idea of a product where the cost increase equals a proportionate improvement in SQ. One gets 80-90% in fairly good DACs and then spends like crazy to get a 3-5% increase from there. Speaking from my own experience, I got the Bifrost, upgraded it to Uber, then the Gungnir Gen 2 and now the Yggy. I am stopping here and have no desire to buy another DAC since all my boxes are checked. I will upgrade to Gumby to have a second system (that's just me).
But if you need further convincing, go to a few Changstar meetings. There's a cornucopia of information among the pyrates that you should tap into. And, no, its not that town in Wisconsin ;D
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Dude. It's time to stop fuss'n and frett'n. If you've got the cash to splash, the Gumby is surely the dac to get.
HA wish it was so easy.
I definitely don't have large sums of disposable income to burn.
One gets 80-90% in fairly good DACs and then spends like crazy to get a 3-5% increase from there.
If the Gen 2 is 85-90% as good as the Gumby, I would wholeheartedly take the Gen 2 over it.
I just need some confirmation from someone who tested both.
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I have both Gen 2 and Gumby. Gumby is a significant jump to me. It may not be for you and it also depends on the rest of your chain. If you are using Magni 2 and a Fidelio X2 headphone, I wouldn't bother making the jump from Gen 2 to Gumby.
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Gen 2 is 85-90% as good as the Gumby
Percentage is sum of so many parameters.
One's 10% difference could be other's 280%.
It is very possible that the upgrade isn't worth it for you.
But then, it could be the end of the journey.
Edit: Marvey beat me to it!
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newdude, I admire your tenacity, but your quest to have all of changstar tell you what to own will invariably not work. Notwithstanding the major problems you will have getting a true consensus, there is the fundamental issue of everone else != you.
But anyway, having very recently upgraded from the Gungnir Gen 2 to the MB Gungnir, I can say conclusively that the MB Gungnir is "a lot" better. I can't say its "more full in the midrange and bass and treble and stuff" or "less veiled"; for me it is fundamentally more real sounding. I am not a headphone wordsmith so I can't articulate perfectly what that means. No, one thing that did get zomg better is the bass; bass is a hard thing to reproduce reliably realistically, and the MB Gungnir does it insanely well.
If it were me making the purchase decision I would absolutely spend the money to get the MB Gungnir up front. Why? Well, when I bought the Gungnir Gen 2, I read a bunch, determined what I wanted from DAC: good value for money, generally well reviewed sound from non-professional reviewers, NOT only usable with one certain headphone/speaker, balanced output for eventual amp upgrades and speakers, reputable company with decent warranty. Then I took the risk, and rather liked the Gungnir Gen 2. When the MB upgrade was released, it was a no brainer for me, based primarily on what I had read from people I trust. My ears have now confirmed the value of my risk, which is a happy ending for me.
As yet another aside regarding your listening journey:
I must admit I am concerned that you are saying the HD800 is both not a problem in the treble region, and that the HD800 sounds veiled in the mids. Those are not necessarily impossible or exclusive experiences, but they tell me that maybe a) you haven't let your brain get accustomed to the HD800 yet, or b) you aren't listening very loud (which again is fine if that is how you listen), or c) you simply don't like the HD800. Its ok not to like the HD800. If you are still keen on giving them a true and honest effort (which I recommend, the HD800 is fucking fantastic) then you owe it to NOT try to find gear that compensates for its only shortcoming: the fucking treble. Instead get the most resolving gear you can stomach paying for (which probably includes the VERY reasonably priced MB Gungnir), and then do the anax mod. The thing the HD800 does better than any other headphone I have heard is detail. Holy shit, detail. That is what separates good gear from great gear for the HD800 (and a lot of other headphones too).
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I have both Gen 2 and Gumby. Gumby is a significant jump to me.
But anyway, having very recently upgraded from the Gungnir Gen 2 to the MB Gungnir, I can say conclusively that the MB Gungnir is "a lot" better.
I'll take your words guys. I try the MB Gungnir.
I'll have to sell all my amps & DACs to fund it & will be stuck with using my Fiio E5 amp to drive my HD800 for the time being.
(http://blog.sonicelectronix.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/fiio-e5.jpg)
Besides the shipping & (ugh) taxes, if I do decide to sell the Gumny down the road, I would probably lose out on maybe two hundred from the asking price. :(
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Schiit gear typically holds good resale value. I've had some stuff that I could barely sell for half of the original price.
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Any thought on Ayre's QB9-DSD? It seems to be very popular here in Thailand even the price tag is pretty high.
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I'll take your words guys. I try the MB Gungnir.
I'll have to sell all my amps & DACs to fund it & will be stuck with using my Fiio E5 amp to drive my HD800 for the time being.
(http://blog.sonicelectronix.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/04/fiio-e5.jpg)
Besides the shipping & (ugh) taxes, if I do decide to sell the Gumny down the road, I would probably lose out on maybe two hundred from the asking price. :(
Fiio E5 amp? WTF is that? p:8
So, you're gonna be selling some stuff (that you've probably quite recently bought?) and then using this 'thing' to connect a good (maybe great) dac to what are possibly the most revealing transducers on the planet?!?
Are you going to be doing some assessments and making final judgements, on the Gumby and hd800, whilst using the Fiio? :-00
Or are you just winding us up?
I'm sorry for the tone of this post, but I can't help feeling that you'll do just that; you'll decide that you don't like your expensive dac and headphones, and sell them, before you've even tried them with a proper amp. And then you'll be asking questions about amps! The internet is full of people with opinions about popular equipment that they've tried with unsuitable or mis-matched ancillaries.
The moral of the story is:
1. Synergy; you've got to have similar quality (not necessarily price) between components, and those components have to work well together. Synergy between headphone and amp, being the most important.
2. Do your research, before you spend your money; learn from the mistakes, observations and successes of others. The trick is understanding which opinions to regard the most.
Call me a snob, but I wouldn't put much trust in the opinion of someone who uses a 'pocket amp' with high-end desktop equipment. Once you get a suitable amp, and are feeding the dac with a good source (preferably a dedicated transport) solution, only then will you know what's good and what's not to your taste, and I'll be interested to read your thoughts.
p;)
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Fiio E5 amp? WTF is that? p:8
Hey! That was my first portable amp. I have it at the bottom of a box somewhere still. I also listened to the DACPort with the HD800 for 7 months while my Super7 was getting built. Although I could only manage about 20 minutes total headtime with it during that entire period.
I don't think he's going to do all that you fear. He just needs to get by in the meantime. I've been there too many moons ago.
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The e5 was my first amp. I was supremely underwhelmed. I had the Grado SR80 at the time and felt like it was better coming straight out of my Fuze. Of course, I was a bit excited when I "discovered" the hidden boost setting all on my own.
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The e5 was my first amp. I was supremely underwhelmed. I had the Grado SR80 at the time and felt like it was better coming straight out of my Fuze. Of course, I was a bit excited when I "discovered" the hidden boost setting all on my own.
I don't think I had a Sansa yet in my repertoire. I think I was going straight from an ipod nano.
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Fiio E5 amp? WTF is that? p:8
So, you're gonna be selling some stuff (that you've probably quite recently bought?) and then using this 'thing' to connect a good (maybe great) dac to what are possibly the most revealing transducers on the planet?!?
Are you going to be doing some assessments and making final judgements, on the Gumby and hd800, whilst using the Fiio? :-00
Or are you just winding us up?
Nope, going to be broke after buying the multibit Gungnir right after I just bought the Sennheiser HD800. Nearly 3 grand in the hole.
Going to have to do without a decent amp until next year.
Just wondering, but is there any way to plug the headphone directly to the DAC
Maybe something like this http://i.imgur.com/dlGfBTJ.jpg into the RCA outputs of the Gungnir & then using USB inputs to my PC?
Does that even make sense?
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Sorry; I didn't really mean to beat up on ya!
(http://i.imgur.com/dlGfBTJ.jpg)
p:0
An adaptor cable, instead of an amplifier?!? That really is desperation!! facepalm
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Sorry; I didn't really mean to beat up on ya!
p:0
An adaptor cable, instead of an amplifier?!? That really is desperation!! facepalm
Yup, until I secure more funds, no amp. :'(
Besides that, I would still like to test out just the DAC for a few weeks at least. See how much improvement it will be without an amp & when I do get the higher end amp down the line, I can see which makes a bigger difference to my ears.
I never got a straight answer form anyone when I asked which would make the biggest change or improvement to a HD800, amp or DAC.
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Since you already have the headphone, wouldn't it be better to buy the amp next? Then, get the Gumby next year when you have the funds. Headphones >= Amp > DAC
From all I read, the HD800 are considered "difficult" headphones and needs a good amp to run well. I'm guessing you have computer doing DAC duty already or are your running off a phone or some other portable source? I tried my HE560s straight to my PC's soundcard and had problems getting up to a suitable volume. I still have an old receiver (RCA only) so I'm temporary going 3.5 mm to RCA until Liquid Carbon ships.
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Just wondering, but is there any way to plug the headphone directly to the DAC
That isn't actually awful idea. I tried HD800 out of Yggy SE output.
Not great, but beats the crap out of anything commercial I have personally used as an amp under 500$, and the dac goodness is still 70% available.
Imo, dac matters nearly as much for HD800 as amp.
The bottleneck thing, or water flow analogy is valid here :)
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Yeah, unless your current DAC is absolutely horrid, I'd start with the amp first.
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Headphones >= Amp > DAC
Yeah, unless your current DAC is absolutely horrid, I'd start with the amp first.
That's what I always thought, but in the HD800 case, it is supposed to be the most revealing headphone ever made. So any imperfections through the DAC are magnified. Going straight the the top rated multibit Gungnir should improve the sound significantly?
I been using the DAC from my PC & from my iFi Micro iDSD. I guess both are bright/digital sounding and they aren't doing the HD800 any favors.
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You will probably subjectively hear a bigger change with a better amp than better DAC unless, again, your existing DAC is THAT bad. I wouldn't necessarily say amps magnify bad DACs, they can just be more revealing of them.
If you can, stick with the DAC on the Micro iDSD for now. Maybe try bit-perfect or minimum phase filter mode if you're worried about brightness. Use that money towards a really nice tube amp for the HD800, then upgrade to a multi-bit Gungnir down the road when funds allow. That will probably give you the best possible sound for the time being vs. being stuck with an expensive DAC and a crappy amp, which will probably sound worse than Micro iDSD + better amp. Now, PC DAC out? That might be a different story.
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That's what I always thought, but in the HD800 case, it is supposed to be the most revealing headphone ever made. So any imperfections through the DAC are magnified. Going straight the the top rated multibit Gungnir should improve the sound significantly?
I been using the DAC from my PC & from my iFi Micro iDSD. I guess both are bright/digital sounding and they aren't doing the HD800 any favors.
It will be harder, possibly impossible, to hear differences in some DACs if your amp doesn't let those differences get to the HD800. You should think of it like the flow of water through a hose. If there is a blockage at a certain point along its length, anything after will get reduced flowrate/performance.
You have to figure out how much you can or want to spend and see where the weakest part of your current chain is.
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what is the Schiit Gumby?
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what is the Schiit Gumby?
GUngnir MultiBit ... Y
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My advice is if you can't stand on top of the summit fi now, get the bifrost/Valhalla 2 stack for the hd800. Good dac + real good amp. Make yourself a hifiberry digi+ source and enjoy the hd800. The gumby is better source but I think you will need a really good amp to get the best out of it.
For the hd800 I would suggest the black widow if you were going for the gumby. The mojo2 is great but its better for orthos. the black widow almost gets you the tuby goodless of some of the end game setups. If only there was a hybrid version :)p8
Just a thought
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There is also the Vali which is a big step up from no amp. Sounds pretty great with the HD800.
If you find the iDSD bright I would beware in upgrading dac only. The dac in that thing is warm/mushy (own one myself for portable use and don't enjoy plugging it into my main rig), so I can't imagine getting a Gumby will make things sound any less bright...
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what is the Schiit Gumby?
Gungnir multibit - one of the best damn DACs on the planet.
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I can certainly understand the advice that says "get the amp first" or "spend your money on the amp, sort out the dac later".
The amp does make more difference. But even though you've already settled on your cans, how can you decide which amp is the best when the signal that you're feeding it is compromised, by a sub-standard source? You'd always have to be second-guessing the effects of the dac!
My point is that there is generally much less difference, less variety of characteristics, between good dacs, than there is amplifiers; a good dac simply lets through more of the music, shows the difference between different recordings etc... So, choosing a dac is (currently) easier. It's the choice of amp that takes time, precisely because it has more influence on the final SQ.
Yes, in the short term, a cheap dac with a good amp should give you a better sound. But, how can you choose the right amp? Your choice of expensive, final purchase, amp might well be skewed by the characteristic of your cheap dac.
My preferred solution is to get a good dac first, and combine it with a cheaper, but popular and known quantity amp. Then you can make an informed decision (with the help of others) on which direction you want to go, with your ultimate amp. And have confidence that the sound isn't going to change, once you get a proper dac and feed the amp with a more truthful musical signal.
The 'phones are THE most influential. The DAC is the foundation (along with a good source). The amp is the link between the two.
Just my thoughts.
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Yeah, a lot of those big names (Wadia too) went toward that direction. Warm, syrupy, even thick, slow, muddy.
Another was the $12K tubed Jadis JS1 (from mid 1990s, still sold/serviced as Jadis is active; uses Philips Bitstream DACs).
You can kinda be in the same sound characteristic, today, with MODERN non-oversampling DACs (most based on certain classic Philips multibit DACs like TDA1541, 1545 or 1543).
In the early days of separate DAC/transport, many "high-end" reviewers often criticized the separation (due to S/PDIF limits). In fact, the high-$ Krell separates were noted as inferior to similar-priced Krell all-in-one CDPs (KPS-20i).
Ahhh .... the all-in-ones... Naim**, Krell, Spectral, SF, etc. (equally noteworthy were all the Magnavox mods)
Disc playback may, today, be old-fashioned, impractical/inconvenient ... and in the context of this thread, out-of-topic.
That said, some of the best Red Book (16/44.1) playback I still hear is outta better CDPs.
** Naim's house sound is flat-earth but PRaTty. They achieved this using at-the-time commercially-avail DACs of various architectures: multibit/R2R (TDA1541A; PCM1702/1704) or TDA1305 (shudder!! hybrid Bitstream!!). What Naim didn't change was their power-supply/regulation design strategy, and they mostly stuck to S/PIDF-free all-in-one Red-Book CDPs, with plain-Jane 4x or 8x COTS digital filters (SAA7220 or PMD100/200).[Again: massive investment in PCB layout and PSU topologies, with short traces and massive decoupling]
Not w/o flaws, and I certainly haven't heard everything out there, but the Naim sound is my digital reference.
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I can certainly understand the advice that says "get the amp first" or "spend your money on the amp, sort out the dac later".
The amp does make more difference. But even though you've already settled on your cans, how can you decide which amp is the best when the signal that you're feeding it is compromised, by a sub-standard source? You'd always have to be second-guessing the effects of the dac!...
... ... ...
The perpetual chicken and egg. Lately, I have been fancying buying a new DAC. It has also been pointed out to me that my existing amplifier might make it not worthwhile to spend money on the DAC. But, sometimes we leap-frog with upgrades. Also, being but human, we don't always make entirely rational and logical decisions. Sometimes we do things in the wrong order for a right reason: The DAC I wanted was available, and being far away from US/European markets, it was a maybe-one-off chance to buy it (which I didn't, because it didn't work out).
In the end, as my upgrade fever dies away for this time, I tell myself: "your system doesn't hurt: enjoy." Fine. Until next time! :)p15
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The 'phones are THE most influential. The DAC is the foundation (along with a good source). The amp is the link between the two.
Yes... an amplifier can only ampify its input, whatever that is.
I used to think of the digital DAC being analogous to the analogue TT cartridge: but it is poor analogy, as cartridges differ a great deal.
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The chart is awesome. I wish Marvey did an amp chart of awesomeness.
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Just playing around with stuff. Would prefer a five dimensional arrangement, but collapsed many sound quality aspects down to two dimensions. I would say that I weigh resolution and microdynamics highest, but a combination of many other good qualities may trump the micro-stuff. Moving DAC thread from HF to here.
What you have in the info-graphic works okay.
A "depth" dimension may add other models that share all the other audio metrics (dimensions).
You may also try a variety of a "polar" graph. Here's one a UK audio mag used, decades ago, to present qualitative (subjective) info:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/9/9d/1000x500px-LL-9dc0555a_Stereophile_May1993_p49_fig1.jpg)
BTW:
I'm from LA and know about the river ... but I have NO IDEA what the red-shaded remark (about global warming) means -- it's not just colloquial, or regional, it's plain confusing. If RED indicates some sort of unsavory sound characteristic, a more prosaic comment is needed (e.g., sounds "dry").
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I had thought about those spider charts too. The Japanese like to use them a lot especially in the automotive aftermarket.
(http://www.motoringalliance.com/forums/attachments/wheels-tires/3d1241640392-yokohama-neova-ad08-ad08-competition-spider-chart.jpg)
(http://www.tirerack.com/images/tires/tiretech/oe_chart.gif)
(http://photos1.blogger.com/blogger2/7438/3208/400/brake-chart_black.jpg)
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the japanese use spider graphs for ANYTHING though!
(http://www.hillscorea7.com/beauty/Gatsby-Hair-Wax-Moving-Rubber-Mens-Styling-Made-in-Japan-2.jpg)
you could actually probably use the exact same labels on these graphs for amplifier comparisons =P
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Lol Gatsby ftw. Most cost effective hair wax in my part of town, but I hate how hard it is to wash off.
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The chart is awesome. I wish Marvey did an amp chart of awesomeness.
maybe an "Amp chart of Choiceness"...
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Someone posted this link to Stereophile's list of recommended DAC's. Linky. (http://www.stereophile.com/content/2015-recommended-components-fall-edition-digital-processors#dGVbKcuDTBAZhQLZ.97)
No mention of the latest Schiit ones, the Light Harmonic ones, along with the Audio-gd that has a few on HF with their panties heated.
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the japanese use spider graphs for ANYTHING though!
you could actually probably use the exact same labels on these graphs for amplifier comparisons =P
I actually find these graphs *waaaaay* more useful than the "volumizing" or whatever crap we put on our hair products in the US. It's just baffling to try and pick any.
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the japanese use spider graphs for ANYTHING though!
you could actually probably use the exact same labels on these graphs for amplifier comparisons =P
Ah, yes, the 6 axes of hair styling, I too have lost sight of these with simple descriptors like "fiber" and "waxy". I can't count the number of times I have yelled out in a market aisle "BUT HOW WILL THIS TWIST & STAND UP IN BUNDLES!?"
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BUT HOW WILL THIS TWIST & STAND UP IN BUNDLES!?
Who cares, if it's BOGOF?
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Is the Odac on the chart the original or revb? If it's the original than where would the revb be placed on the chart. If anyone has heard the revb, how does it compare to the geekout V2?
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Both. Both units were mine and one replaced the other. They sounded the same from what I recall (difference being better usb compatibility) and both got crushed by the GO v.1. Better resolution, better imaging, better air, more refined tone and smoother treble.
v.2 is even less comparable with most of those things improving further still. I have impressions comparing the two around somewhere...
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Damn...well I guess the V2 will be the next dac I buy later on down the road. I see that the V2 doesn't have rca output. How would I go about connecting it to my amp? Thank you for the quick reply Anaxilus.
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3.5mm TRS to dual RCA Y-cable.
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Thank you.
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Both. Both units were mine and one replaced the other. They sounded the same from what I recall (difference being better usb compatibility) and both got crushed by the GO v.1. Better resolution, better imaging, better air, more refined tone and smoother treble.
v.2 is even less comparable with most of those things improving further still. I have impressions comparing the two around somewhere...
Thanks for this! I was curious how/to what extent the change from sabre to PCM5102A would impact the odac's signature.
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/to what extent the change from sabre to PCM5102A would impact the odac's signature
I don't think that the DAC IC changed. It's still a sabre. I believe it is the USB interface chip that changed.
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Uhh.....has anyone ever compared the sansa clip+ to the odac? Considering the odac was designed to sound/measure (can't remember which word was used exactly in his blog) the same as the clip+ I would have thought they would sound identical......but they don't.
Just did a REALLY quick test to see which one had better bass on two songs i'm extremely familiar with and the result was definitely noticeable. The clip+ had more weight and impact in the bass and was warmer compared to the odac. The odac sounded a little leaner but it was enough to be noticeable and would definitely be less enjoyable to listen to compared to the clip+. Man, this is disappointing. I just bought this dac a week ago and it's already getting out shined by my portable player that i've had for YEARS.
If anyone is curious My odac is connected to a Gustard H10 and i'm using Meelectronic A151 1st gens. Songs used were As the world turns over and The box by The last ten seconds of life.
Is the geekout V2 warmer and does it have better bass than the odac?
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I don't think the ODAC was designed to sound and measure the same as the Clip+.
The Clip+ should measure considerably worse than the ODAC.
That said, I like my Clip+ quite a bit.
Note as well that there are two revisions of the ODAC.
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Yeah I have the new revb odac. Anaxilus posted earlier that both versions sound the same, even if the clip+ does measure worse I think I like it's sound more than my odac. Definitely more musical with stronger bass but with a smaller soundstage, I forgot to mention that in my last post, which was also quite noticeable. The odac was definitely wider.
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Nah, the Clip+ is warmer but had less weight/dynamics and worse imaging and soundstage than the ODAC IME.
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I just bought this dac a week ago and it's already getting out shined by my portable player that i've had for YEARS.
One can go on and on failing in this route. The puny little Clip+ is IMO better than even some 1k$ dacs.
The resolution isn't nothing to write home about, but the tone and fullness is pretty good.
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Nah, the Clip+ is warmer but had less weight/dynamics and worse imaging and soundstage than the ODAC IME.
Yeah that's what I was saying. Sorry if I was confusing, Clip+ is noticeably warmer with stronger bass but a smaller soundstage. The soundstage is a lot nicer on the odac but sounds emotionally un-involving as a whole compared to the clip+.
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Yeah that's what I was saying. Sorry if I was confusing, Clip+ is noticeably warmer with stronger bass but a smaller soundstage. The soundstage is a lot nicer on the odac but sounds emotionally un-involving as a whole compared to the clip+.
How are you comparing the two?
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One can go on and on failing in this route. The puny little Clip+ is IMO better than even some 1k$ dacs.
The resolution isn't nothing to write home about, but the tone and fullness is pretty good.
Yeah I definitely don't want to go down that road considering I was barely able to afford the odac. I think i'm just looking for something that's warmer and has bass than the odac. That's why I asked if the geek out v2 was better since it's on the warmer side of the chart and A LOT of people seem to like it.
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How are you comparing the two?
PC>ODAC>Gustard H10> A151 vs Sansa clip+> A151
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PC>ODAC>Gustard H10> A151 vs Sansa clip+> A151
Can you compare the Sansa into the Gustard to rule that out? Might want to try playing with some settings on your PC side too, there might be room for improvement in your software side of things.
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Yeah I could do that. I would have to order the cable though since I don't have a 3.5 to rca on me at the moment. Settings on my pc? What are you referring to exactly?
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I don't think that the DAC IC changed. It's still a sabre. I believe it is the USB interface chip that changed.
They changed the dac chip too, although not advertised on the product page. If you look at JDS blog entry and the change log section, they do disclose the change to PCM5102A, with SA9023 for usb. There is also an oblique reference to the failure rate on the sabre chips. http://blog.jdslabs.com/?p=1003
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they do disclose the change to PCM5102A, with SA9023 for usb
Ahh, you are correct sir. I stand corrected.
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I also felt there was a perceivable difference tonally between the Rev A and Rev B ODAC. The Rev A was slightly tinny and thin, and the Rev B felt like it erased most of that for me. Almost identical? Yes. And it probably wouldn't shift it on the chart except perhaps a notch to the left.
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Really? Hmm that's interesting. Definitely glad I didn't get the odac before the revision than.