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Author Topic: Alpha Dog Prime - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements  (Read 16286 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #110 on: February 25, 2015, 05:31:01 PM »

Here's the plan:
  • Continue with tour of existing Alpha Primes (defective or not, lets keep it on tour for sake of consistency)
  • As I've already said, I got another Alpha Prime coming in from a HF'er. We'll pass this one along too.
If the incoming pair sounds better or great. The issue has been resolved. The existing pair can be labeled as defective and we'll give Dan an chance to fix it - we'll totally make it up to Dan. We've been wrong here before and had to eat our words. If the incoming pair sounds just as sucky, then maybe the Prime's are just something we don't like.

For now, let's not arrive at any conclusions (other than this existing pair does kinda suck)
« Last Edit: February 25, 2015, 11:46:36 PM by marvey »
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #111 on: February 25, 2015, 05:57:53 PM »

P.S. ultra, after you measure this pair, send it to Clem. I'll provide you with another Alpha Dog, hopefully sooner than later. We'll use the same loaner schedule for the second pair.
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #112 on: February 26, 2015, 12:02:44 AM »

Thread cleaned-up and re-opened for purposes of loaner program.
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #113 on: February 26, 2015, 01:25:06 AM »

I wanted to directly address the question of distortion.  Here is a set of measurements of a T50RP (Green), an Alpha Dog (Red), and an Alpha Prime  I made this morning using our standard production test fixture, which overstates THD, as you will see below.  These units were grabbed from inventory and I made one and only one set of measurements on one set of each phone, no cherry picking. 



When we use our in-house test fixtures, our worst case results look like the red or blue.  There is a spike that can occur at 500Hz; it is random on Fostex drivers and is not affected by our tuning or processing, and it is almost entirely second order and therefore relatively benign.  On about half the headphones it is totally absent.  I suspect it has to do with driver alignment to the magnets or within the driver frame but we have not found a way to isolate this. 

That said, we have done extensive listening tests and this is not audible to us with music so as long as the peak is narrow and under 2% it’s considered a pass.  For those of you familiar with Innerfidelity’s measurements you know that many TOTL headphones have at least one spike that pops well over 1%, some as high as 10%, so this is neither unusual nor something we consider a problem.

When we measure on a G.R.A.S. 45CA we find the THD measures improve.  Green and Blue = Prime, Red = TOTL Dynamic headphone, >$1K USD (it's a well regarded product I'm using only as a reference so it'll remain anonymous but the results are consistent with Innerfidelity).  Further, at 90dB, the Prime's THD, aside from the 1-2 peaks, is ~0.2%, which is extremely presentable for a genuinely closed can.

From our tests it's clear that better measurement systems reduce measured THD, while marginal or low quality fixtures add distortion that is not present in the actual signal, so it’d help to understand exactly what you’re using when you measure.


Sorry, I didn't get to this post. The images were blocked at work and I didn't follow up last night - so I really had no context. @Dan: can you post THD in logarithmic Y scale? We don't hear linearly. THD in linear Y-scale is a misleading at best and deceptive at worst (marketing materials). Note that Tyll also uses log scale for THD. I'll take a few comparative non-linear distortion measurements of other headphones using the same method when I get more time tonight or tomorrow. What happens with log scale is that stuff on the bottom shelves get brought up into context. You'll see less peaky narrow distortion spikes once the THD graphs are presented and visualized properly.

Also, the rig I use is different from that of years ago. This is well known. I now use the version 2 system. I also don't describe or post the detail of my measurements rig for reasons of not wanting people to rip off my ideas for commercial purposes. This is also well known. I thought I made this clear to you years ago when you came over to have the contest between the Rastapants and Luis' headphones.
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #114 on: February 26, 2015, 01:50:51 AM »

As I indicated, your method of presentation where you elect to show linear scale tends to be misleading because we hear on the logarithmic scale. My software package actually lacks to means to display in linear scale. However, I have attached the same distortion graph from my measurement, but this time with select points where the actual % value is indicated. Once you understand this, your distortion graphs really don't seem that much different from mine. The narrow distortion spikes you have in reality really are not that narrow.



Also, I would disagree with you on 2% or even 1% distortion being insignificant. I know for a fact that some people here (Anaxilus) tend to be very sensitive to midrange distortion and could easily pick up -65db or 0.05% distortion. This is based on his correlating his experience with the headphones evaluated here and their respective objective measurements / distortion results. There's probably a bell curve distribution. I don't tend to be bothered my midrange distortion as much as Anaxilus - my threshold for midrange is a little below 0.10% distortion - which seems to be the average here.

While I cannot attest to absolutes of my methodology, I do know that the distortion graphs here (the method used, the presentations used) do correlate to sound quality - specifically to the aspect ofs "cleanness" or "fidelity" to a looser extent. In other words, it works based on the collective experience of people here. You can actually correlate the measurement to certain sonic phenomena. You must realize that before I even took the measurements, I highly suspected high midrange distortion (on my rig, using my methods, and my presentations). As Anaxilus said "64kbps mp3" - a term I said was quite apt in describing the overall nature of the sound outside of the frequency response.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2015, 02:18:13 AM by marvey »
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Ringingears

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #115 on: February 27, 2015, 04:10:07 AM »

Please excuse me if I have missed something Marv. Are these the measurements of the original Primes we are continuing on the original loaner program or a different pair from Dan or a head-fi member?  Just want to know as I am getting close on the list, and want to be sure I'm looking at the right graphs.
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #116 on: February 27, 2015, 09:19:28 PM »

These measurements reflect the existing headphones - currently in Gilberto's possession.
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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #117 on: February 27, 2015, 09:53:06 PM »

Along with linear vs log scale, would also be good to know how SPL differs to factor that into distortion results as well. Unless I missed that...
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #118 on: February 27, 2015, 10:44:44 PM »

-10db line = 90db SPL on my rig. I think Dan said he was also pushing 90db. There will be variances of course between measurement rigs.
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ultrabike

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #119 on: February 28, 2015, 05:35:35 AM »

Welp, got measurements back:

Frequency Response



Distortion Right



Distortion Left



CSD Right



Distortion Left



Did these cans sound to me like the FR suggests? Nope. They sounded like ass to me. There is probably an objective reason for that (other than personal bias and predisposition)... but that's proly up to Dan-the-man to figure out with his superior quality gear.

Distortion is still crap in the mids, compared to a much more affordable dynamic such as the HD600:

HD600 distortion right



Channel imbalance is repeatable.
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