CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Headphone Measurements => Topic started by: Marvey on February 04, 2015, 04:27:33 AM
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DO NOT READ IF YOU ARE ON THE LOANER TOUR AND DON'T WANT TO BE INFLUENCED.
Tour List: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg58748.html#msg58748 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg58748.html#msg58748)
Measurements (confirmed defective pair): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg57831.html#msg57831 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg57831.html#msg57831)
Measurements (donated retail pair): http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg63568.html#msg63568 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg63568.html#msg63568)
Got to hear them at Ravi's meet up north. No_One411 was kind enough to let me hear them. At the meet, these were very strange sounding. Really bassy with some vocal shrillness. I don't remember what I said. So No_One411 send them back and supposedly these pair were catastrophically messed up or whatever, but honestly I don't know what to believe and I kinda think it's probably a lame excuse but I should probably give the benefit of the doubt you know? I'll let No_One411 tell the story since everything I say would be hearsay.
OK. First of all I'd like to say that the headphone is absolutely beautiful with the purple/red/brown color thing - it sort of mimics the TH900 ya know? The connectors are really nice. The cables are a bit thicker than what I would prefer, but they don't get in the way. It's comfy too with a stylish suspension headband. I've attached my usual set of shitty photos - all taken in haste with my iPhone.
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So... to preface:
This particular pair was an upgraded Alpha Dog. According to Dan, whatever he does to driver, it's extremely risky and he has broken numerous drivers in the process.
I've heard 3 upgraded Alpha Primes at this point, and to me, all of them had some weird tonality issue. I brought my pair to the Bay Area mini meet to make sure I wasn't going crazy. The Primes weren't very well received, and many people commented that it sounded that something was wrong with the pair.
I worked with Dan to get the pair returned. Dan replies and says that the pair was "catastrophically wrong", and basically akin to a pair in the prototype stage of the driver mod. According to him, he's fairly confidant that the current tuning is correct.
Now, I drove them out of a Schiit Vali, Owen's The Wire amp, Gustard H10, and even my First Watt F5 power amp. The "fixed" Prime still sounds really weird to me. I let Dan know, and he tried, in the most respectful manner, to tell me that I was wrong, and something else was wrong in my chain.
For all I know, I could just have hella shitty ears or something. Dan's obviously biased towards his own product. I just don't like the Primes as much as the Paradox Slants.
For those in the tour, please do share your impressions. Try not to let this bias your own experience, and keep an open mind.
--Jeff
EDIT: Do you really like the connectors Marv? I'm not a fan at all. I wish he would have just gone with the mini 4-pin XLRs...
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So these are the corrected version of the headphone. (What is it about me that I attract defective or out-of-spec headphones?) I'll cut right to the chase:
- Instead of the bass being on the cusp of being too much (the catastrophically defective pair), the bass is now a tad too thin. There's good extension, but impact, fullness, and warmth seem just a tiny bit lacking. I can't quite put my finger on it.
- There's a tiny vestige of that hardness / glare of the Alpha Dog (regular). But no means is it's annoying - just little thing.
- There's a spotlit treble sizzle/stridency somewhere. I don't hear it all the time - tends to pop up on certain recordings.
- Now here's the worst part. There's a low-fi quality in the mids. Very reminiscent of the mids on the HE-400. Not quite the same. Call it distortion. A lot of distortion in the mids. That's what I'm betting when I take the measurements.
- No air. It's like most the last octave is missing.
- Good left / right, but no depth. No good sense of space. Spatial cues lacking - probably related to lack of air.
- They are very very inefficient. Much more so than other T50RP mods. They need to be driven very powerful amps.
Measurements forthcoming...
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Measurements attached.
- Actually a fairly even FR. I personally I would liked to see a tad more bass - flat to a few hundred Hz with a slow roll-off toward the treble. The marked mid-bass dip in on channel and slightly rolled down response in the other probably contribute to the slightly thin sound I noted.
- Bass distortion is good, especially in the mid-bass.
- The sharp dip seems to be a artifact, although some ringing is noted before the dip. Minor ringing at 6k that is. Small mid-treble peaks. Nothing too wrong.
- Some rolloff in last octave, but measurements are sometimes unreliable in this area, although lack of air was observed.
- Distortion in the mids is concerning and seems unacceptable for a headphone at this price point. This distortion can be heard and what I referred to as the low-fi'ish quality of the sound.
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Thanks for getting these measured Marv!
Damn, I don't know what the hell is going on here...
Could it be possible that the pads aren't sealing? I had an issue with the 3D cups and getting a good seal. The way the cups are made, it doesn't allow for the same amount of vertical tilt as regular T50RP cups. Even if you rotate the Alpha Pads, you can never get the bottom of the pads to correctly close off the bottom of your ear.
Damn...now I wanna just cry and pick up a pair of HD600/HD650, and keep my Slants for office use.
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Will have to see what I think when I test them, but the response looks a bit weird and maybe even worse than regular Alpha Dog, channel matching is not great, and distortion isn't great. Assuming these still aren't messed up and actually represent the Prime sound, this seems disappointing and not just for $1K. But, hey, that's why I'll be testing them myself to see how they work for me.
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Thanks for getting these measured Marv!
Damn, I don't know what the hell is going on here...
Could it be possible that the pads aren't sealing? I had an issue with the 3D cups and getting a good seal. The way the cups are made, it doesn't allow for the same amount of vertical tilt as regular T50RP cups. Even if you rotate the Alpha Pads, you can never get the bottom of the pads to correctly close off the bottom of your ear.
Damn...now I wanna just cry and pick up a pair of HD600/HD650, and keep my Slants for office use.
The seal is good, otherwise there would be a steep rolloff somewhere in the bass. My rig actually simulates a less than perfect seal - a realistic seal taking into account hair and a small area underneath the back of the ear. I'll take another set of measurements to confirm.
It doesn't sound bad, but it's not a $1000 headphone in terms of SQ. Not even close. I actually think the Primes went a little bit backwards. One step forward (FR), two steps backward (distortion). It took me a while to get my finger around the sound. As I've said, the FR is OK if a little lean, some minor spots. It's was just weird - like "why doesn't this sound right - why doesn't this sound good" until a few seconds later when it clicked... ahh the mids are funky.
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The seal is good, otherwise there would be a steep rolloff somewhere in the bass. My rig actually simulates a less than perfect seal - a realistic seal taking into account hair and a small area underneath the back of the ear. I'll take another set of measurements to confirm.
It doesn't sound bad, but it's not a $1000 headphone in terms of SQ. Not even close. I actually think the Primes went a little bit backwards. One step forward (FR), two steps backward (distortion). It took me a while to get my finger around the sound. As I've said, the FR is OK if a little lean, some minor spots. It's was just weird - like "why doesn't this sound right - why doesn't this sound good" until a few seconds later when it clicked... ahh the mids are funky.
Ah, makes sense. Was just wondering cause, I had issues with the bottom of the pads and my glasses breaking part of the seal.
They sound decidely mid-fi to me. Don't know how else to explain it.
I couldn't find a single recording where the Prime's accurately reproduced violins. Tonality was always off, and had this nasal quality. I won't even mention how weird violas sounded to me. I usually start with older recordings of my string quartet back when we actually played. Just easier to go off of stuff I'm more familiar with.
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Yeah I think I know what you are saying - timbre, harmonics, overtones - it's off. Just a mess of the 2nd harmonic and a little bit of the 3rd which shouldn't be there. Sort of this fuzzy, staticky, quality to the tones.
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Dude. OMFG! What up with that distortion mang? You kidding me. Purrin, I'm surprised you not calling this out as a stinking piece of shit.
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Dude. OMFG! What up with that distortion mang? You kidding me. Purrin, I'm surprised you not calling this out as a stinking piece of shit.
??
Because, all things considered, they don't sound absolutely terrible.
The issue here is:
Bad valuation, and too many things gone wrong for a headphone that cost this much.
They can't be absolute trash. Look at how much praise these have received otherwise.
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Hi,
Marv let me listen to these and compare with Luis' headphones. I don't know what these headphones are called. The purple ones are gorgeous and beautiful. They are comfortable with the pads, but they sound incorrect to me. It's hard for me to say because I don't know how to describe sound. No bass. It doesn't feel complete. Also the sound comes from the top of my head. It's not surround sound. It comes from one spot.
With Luis' headphone, it sounds more surround sound and more balanced in terms on tone.
Sorry I can't say more!
Julie
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Dude. OMFG! What up with that distortion mang? You kidding me. Purrin, I'm surprised you not calling this out as a stinking piece of shit.
Hmmm. Compared with Luis Paradox. (Paradox seems the better comparison instead of the Slants because it appears both of these headphones aim for a neutral sound). Paradox wins easily. Honestly, I wouldn't use the Alpha Dog Primes. There's something wrong with it. As Julie pointed out, I just realized something is really wrong with the staging. It's literally inside my head - actually a bit behind my ears and toward the top of my skull. The mid-bass punch and feeling of fullness is very lacking. It's just disturbing to listen to.
One more thing I want to add. The ADP's lack a certain crispness - suddenness. Hard to describe. I don't know if this is the result of higher distortion or not. Microdynamics are lacking. Microdetail is also not on the level of the Paradox. On the Talking Heads Naive Melody (the remaster from 8 years ago or so), there's a lot of swirly background ambient stuff going on. This can be heard clearly on the Paradox, but seems missing from the ADP.
This is just one off sucker to figure out. I mean, it isn't horrible, but it's strange. Probably why No_One411 seems just as weirded out by it as I am.
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The issue here is:
Bad valuation, and too many things gone wrong for a headphone that cost this much.
What the right price for this then? 200?
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These are the ones going on tour? This'll be interesting.
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Sounds like they should have been priced under the alpha dogs. If the Paradox + slants with recabling + custom paint are $700, the plain versions are $525, the alpha dog is priced at $600, and the HD600/650/K7XX are priced under $300, these should be $400 pirate price. $300 for sound + $100 for pretty cups.
That much midrange distortion is embarrassing. Bill-ps modded esw10s don't have that much.
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Sounds like they should have been priced under the alpha dogs. If the Paradox + slants with recabling + custom paint are $700, the plain versions are $525, the alpha dog is priced at $600, and the HD600/650/K7XX are priced under $300, these should be $400 pirate price. $300 for sound + $100 for pretty cups.
The HD600/650/K7XX are under $300 only in the US. Everywhere else in the world this tier of headphones cost more in the region of $400-500.
With that in mind, and having heard the Alpha Primes, I'd happily pay $600 for them. The measurements might be off but subjectively they sounded pretty good (albeit not $1000 good).
Perhaps Dan should have branded them the Mad Dog Primes and sold them as such because that's what they sound like to me.
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I don't want to look like a tube n00b boob, but what's the amp in the purrin pic?
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I don't want to look like a tube n00b boob, but what's the amp in the purrin pic?
You are looking at the amazingly beautiful EC Zana Deux.
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The HD600/650/K7XX are under $300 only in the US. Everywhere else in the world this tier of headphones cost more in the region of $400-500.
Hum. no
HD600/650 are priced between 250 and 300€ including VAT here. without VAT and at the current Euro to Dollars conversion rate , that puts thos headphone way under 400/500$ ;) . K7XX is only for Massdrop if I'm not wrong ;)
The HD800 is relatively easy to find new at less than 1000€ (inc.VAT) in EU.
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Hum. no
HD600/650 are priced between 250 and 300€ including VAT here. without VAT and at the current Euro to Dollars conversion rate , that puts thos headphone way under 400/500$ ;) . K7XX is only for Massdrop if I'm not wrong ;)
The HD800 is relatively easy to find new at less than 1000€ (inc.VAT) in EU.
Ah, so the situation is better in continental Europe, then. I'm going by UK prices where the 650 is usually around $400 and the HD800 starts at around $1,400. I'm also currently living in Thailand these days and you wouldn't believe how much Senns and AKGs go for out here. It's truly painful.
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Dont know why but it seems cans are in Way more expensive in the UK to Europe prices.
HD800 on eBay to 900 Euro, let me know if it Can be purchased cheaper, thanks :money:
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Dont know why but it seems cans are in Way more expensive in the UK to Europe prices.
HD800 on eBay to 900 Euro, let me know if it Can be purchased cheaper, thanks :money:
If we're talking of a brand new HD800, I think it's one of the best offer you can find. ;) . Usually the best prices can be found in Italy or Spain.
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Bought my first pair of HD800 in 2010 for $1318 AUD ($700 pound) shipped from Italy.
Bought a used HD800 in good condition late last year in Australia for $900.
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Bought a new HD800 December 2014 at Headphone Bar for $1200 (limited time price). My original pair I bought in 2010 for $1750 :)p18 Both Canadian Dollars.
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The HD600/650/K7XX are under $300 only in the US. Everywhere else in the world this tier of headphones cost more in the region of $400-500.
With that in mind, and having heard the Alpha Primes, I'd happily pay $600 for them. The measurements might be off but subjectively they sounded pretty good (albeit not $1000 good).
Perhaps Dan should have branded them the Mad Dog Primes and sold them as such because that's what they sound like to me.
That's a fair assessment.
Keep in mind the tuning was tweaked on these from the original which were on the bassy side (bassier than MadDog version 3.2). Now these Primes sound just a tad thin (No MadDog iteration sounded even remotely thin to me). The FR could be a moving target = high possibility that these sound nothing like your Alpha Dog Primes. FWIW, I actually like the last iteration of the MadDogs and especially the MadDog Pros (colored / more "fun" tuning).
Anyways, I'm sending these out on the tour this weekend.
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That is awful. Jesus Christ.
I'm betting he retensions the diaphragm by heating it up. Seems like the only kind of mod that would be dangerous and produce such ridiculous amounts of distortion.
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Is it known whether Dan has settled on a signature for the Prime or is rolling out revisions? I know he is still trying to figure whether upgrades are viable (or was the last time I heard). I waited a year after the Alpha Dog had been released to get my pair.
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I'm also curious as to whether there's also a 75% failure rate when making the Alpha Prime proper. Of course I'm not an engineer so I don't really understand these things, but why would there be higher failure rate when upgrading Alpha Dogs to Alpha Primes than there is when making an Alpha Prime outright? I would think the failure rates for whatever he does to the driver would be roughly the same in each case.
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First of all, I'd like to thanks Marvey for allowing me to be on the loaner. I just signed up to write down my impressions. I'm glad to be here.
LOL @ Alpha Primes! Where the frickin' body? Why do pianos have no presence or reverb? Jeez it's not even trying to sound like music. It just sounds funky with acoustic instruments right now. I'm pushing the cups against my head but the coloration is still there. It's not the bass necessarily, it's a midrange thing. How people could pay $1k for this and smile is beyond me. I was enjoying them for a bit till I put on a piano/female vocalist album. Emphasizes the sibilance as well. It definitely sounds a bit peaky on the highs. If not then there is some resonance there for sure. Vocals sound very unnatural on it.
Who do I send to next?
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First of all, I'd like to thanks Marvey for allowing me to be on the loaner. I just signed up to write down my impressions. I'm glad to be here.
LOL @ Alpha Primes! Where the frickin' body? Why do pianos have no presence or reverb? Jeez it's not even trying to sound like music. It just sounds funky with acoustic instruments right now. I'm pushing the cups against my head but the coloration is still there. It's not the bass necessarily, it's a midrange thing. How people could pay $1k for this and smile is beyond me. I was enjoying them for a bit till I put on a piano/female vocalist album. Emphasizes the sibilance as well. It definitely sounds a bit peaky on the highs. If not then there is some resonance there for sure. Vocals sound very unnatural on it.
Who do I send to next?
Thanks for the impressions! I wonder if the issues you have with pianos and female voices are a result of the dip in the upper midrange shown in some of the measurements.
Also, it was vaguely unsettling to read "Where's the frickin' body?" in the voice of OJ Simpson. Nice touch!
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First of all, I'd like to thanks Marvey for allowing me to be on the loaner. I just signed up to write down my impressions. I'm glad to be here.
LOL @ Alpha Primes! Where the frickin' body? Why do pianos have no presence or reverb? Jeez it's not even trying to sound like music. It just sounds funky with acoustic instruments right now. I'm pushing the cups against my head but the coloration is still there. It's not the bass necessarily, it's a midrange thing. How people could pay $1k for this and smile is beyond me. I was enjoying them for a bit till I put on a piano/female vocalist album. Emphasizes the sibilance as well. It definitely sounds a bit peaky on the highs. If not then there is some resonance there for sure. Vocals sound very unnatural on it.
Who do I send to next?
I'm starting to think whether these need a trip back to Dan. These just sound hella weird half the time. I'm not hearing the praise that's given to this headphone everywhere else...
As far as the tour goes, if Ultrabike has had an opportunity to listen and perhaps take measurements:
- Marv (Socal) *Sent 1/31/2015
- Ultrabike / OJneg (Socal)
- ClemMaster (Socal)
- Original Ken (Central CA)
- RingingEars (Norcal)
- Hans (Colorado)
- TMRaven (Texas)
- Aufmerksam (Wisconsin)
- Azteca X (Ohio)
- Colgin (NY)
- EraserXIV (East Coast)
Should be Clemmaster I think.
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Is it known whether Dan has settled on a signature for the Prime or is rolling out revisions? I know he is still trying to figure whether upgrades are viable (or was the last time I heard). I waited a year after the Alpha Dog had been released to get my pair.
Last time I asked, the sound hadn't changed and they won't say if they plan on changing it so...
http://www.head-fi.org/t/737082/meet-alpha-prime/330#post_11239813
I'm also curious as to whether there's also a 75% failure rate when making the Alpha Prime proper. Of course I'm not an engineer so I don't really understand these things, but why would there be higher failure rate when upgrading Alpha Dogs to Alpha Primes than there is when making an Alpha Prime outright? I would think the failure rates for whatever he does to the driver would be roughly the same in each case.
The changes are done within the driver it seems for the Primes, so that's why the high failure rate. For the Alpha Dogs (non Prime), nothing is done to the drivers, is just the damping method and new enclosure when jumping from the Mad Dogs.
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The changes are done within the driver it seems for the Primes, so that's why the high failure rate. For the Alpha Dogs (non Prime), nothing is done to the drivers, is just the damping method and new enclosure when jumping from the Mad Dogs. [Emphasis added]
That what Dan says on his firm's website and on HF but he told a friend that made no change whatsoever to the driver. So either he's lying or he changed his manufacturing process (or both). I think you're probably right either way, gelocks.
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Dan says that he pleats the t50rp diaphragm with his alpha primes. Given that kind of modification, I can see a lot potentially going wrong.
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During the earliest trials of the upgrade process, I think Dan said something about soldering/resoldering the T50RP driver multiple times when he removed it for the Prime mods was a minor issue.
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Dan says that he pleats the t50rp diaphragm with his alpha primes.
that is INCREDIBLY retarded, no wonder the fucking thing distorts so bad :/
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I hate it when people are tight-lipped about modifications of their products, and especially when they don't label their products to reflect those mods. E.g., I bought an LCD-2 from Woo Audio months after "Fazor" tech had been rolled out for that model, but my unit didn't have it. It was sold to me at full price without the "Fazor" tech. I didn't realize this until about a month ago.
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LOL. You might be lucky. The high grade LCD2s > LCD2 Fazor. If it isn't, complain to Audeze about it sounding veiled (if it does sound veiled or slow); and get a Fazor in return.
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LOL. You might be lucky. The high grade LCD2s > LCD2 Fazor. If it isn't, complain to Audeze about it sounding veiled (if it does sound veiled or slow); and get a Fazor in return.
That would be great news certainly. I've never had a problem with how they sound; quite the opposite, in fact. I've never really been able to hear in them all the bad stuff people talk about, but have been able (apparently) to hear the good stuff. I complained to Audeze via email a few weeks ago. They ended up calling me and discouraged me from wanting the "Fazor" tech. Apparently, "Fazor" is only for losers with iPhones. But surely a distinguished guy like myself - "you have like, a, WA7 or what? a real powerful amp?" - doesn't have that problem (apparently). That's what the guy said. Of course, I have no objective way of knowing whether I in fact have high grade LCD-2s or am just getting double-blaved by the Audeze guy.
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"Fazor" is only for losers with iPhones.
LOLOLOLOLOL.
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https://mrspeakers.com/alpha-prime-headphones/
They just posted what they actually do to the driver diaphragm in this modification. To me, it explains the bad distortion.
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https://mrspeakers.com/alpha-prime-headphones/
They just posted what they actually do to the driver diaphragm in this modification. To me, it explains the bad distortion.
"But it’s not the technological improvements that matter most, it’s the Alpha Prime’s ability to connect to the music. No matter what genre, Alpha Prime will just pull you into it’s silky-smooth and really immersive soundscape. This is a headphone we hope will connect listeners to their music, and maybe stay up all night rediscovering old treasures."
What the fuck does this mean? Sounds like pono talk.
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Note the weasel word "maybe." (And the second clause missing a verb. Oh, fuck it.)
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Also note the misuse of 'it's' in the second sentence. facepalm
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OK. I want to hear what ultrabike says about them. Does ultrabike have them now?
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Any chance I can get in on the tour for the Alpha Primes?
I have the Oppo PM-1's headed my way via Oppo sponsored tour and would love to compare it to the Alpha Primes. Then the only ones left on my list before my decision and purchase would then be HE-560 and Paradox - only if I could get loaner pairs of these as well... still looking for a source.
I am located in Austin, Texas.
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Heard this today at OJs. Jebus! Something is really wrong with these cans. Lean as hell. No resolution at all. Strings are completely wrong. Absolutely no air. Plain weird sounding. Horrible. Worst can I've heard from Dan.
Ultrasones and TH500RP stock at the meet actually murdered this one. Not exaggerating.
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Heard this today at OJs. Jebus! Something is really wrong with these cans. Lean as hell. No resolution at all. Strings are completely wrong. Absolutely no air. Plain weird sounding. Horrible. Worst can I've heard from Dan.
Ultrasones and TH500RP stock at the meet actually murdered this one. Not exaggerating.
Did you take any measurements? I emailed Dan about possibly sending this pair to him to check again. Haven't heard back from him yet though.
If you did take measurements, would you mind if I shared the measurements with Dan just so I can back up my comment to him that these still sounded really weird. Strings sounded tonally off to me as well. It's like everybody was playing with nasally sounding instruments.
I suppose I'm asking Marv as well. Didn't want to share your work without permission.
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AM transistor radio. walk the plank2
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Did you take any measurements? I emailed Dan about possibly sending this pair to him to check again. Haven't heard back from him yet though.
If you did take measurements, would you mind if I shared the measurements with Dan just so I can back up my comment to him that these still sounded really weird. Strings sounded tonally off to me as well. It's like everybody was playing with nasally sounding instruments.
I suppose I'm asking Marv as well. Didn't want to share your work without permission.
Sorry mang, didn't take measurements and didn't take the cans with me. I can go pick them up @ OJs during the weekend and run them through my rig.
Also, AFAIK you can use measurements here w/o any trouble.
You are absolutely right. These cans are broken somehow. They were pretty bad.
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who's supposed to be next on the loaner list?
Either way it's a good idea for ultra to measure them to confirm.
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who's supposed to be next on the loaner list?
Either way it's a good idea for ultra to measure them to confirm.
List is quite long...
Clemmaster is supposed to get them next from the list.
- Ultrabike / OJneg (Socal)
- ClemMaster (Socal)
- Original Ken (Central CA)
- RingingEars (Norcal)
- Hans (Colorado)
- TMRaven (Texas)
- Aufmerksam (Wisconsin)
- Azteca X (Ohio)
- Colgin (NY)
- EraserXIV (East Coast)
If it's not too much trouble Ultra, could you get another set of measurements done? Not that I don't trust Marv's measurements, but measurements should help confirm anything weird you hear.
I'll ping Dan again tomorrow and see if he's willing to take another look...
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Will get them, measure and ship 'em out as soon as possible. Need to ship a bunch of cans tomorrow as well.
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Sounds like AM radio. You could not pay me to listen to these. poo
Recommended for anyone wanting to add lossy compression artifacts to their music.
Pirate tip to 'Prime' your current rig and save money. PEQ your current phones to flat and convert your entire music library to 64kbps mp3. It'll probably sound better and you'll gain tons of storage space.
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Recommended for anyone wanting to add lossy compression artifacts to their music. 64kbps
Always hard to drive to put your finger on something, but "lossy compression / 64kbps" is a very apt description of what I heard - in addition to the FR issues OJ and Gil mentioned. Whatever was done to the driver was not good.
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OK, OK, it looks like we totally screwed up. While I don't know about your measurement process the description of the sound simply makes it clear we've got a real problem with the unit.
This headphone was sent back for repair, it was instantly obvious it had not been finished and was shipped incorrectly. That can only have been my error and is totally our fault. We repaired it and at the time it passed the basic test set, but what you are describing sounds so totally awful and wrong that it is clear this is still a total dud. I am not going to guess what happened.
Please ship it back to me so I can troubleshoot it and repair or replace it.
No_One, sorry man. We don't mess up often, I hope, but if we do we will own it.
Dan
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Just send another one to these guys. I am certain they will return it. TBH I would have liked to read impressions or see measurements of the original defective unit that NoOne411 and marvey first heard in the Bay Area. It is good to have a "control" pair on hand as well as a new one that isn't a dud.
Makes sense to me.
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Once I save up for a balanced pair of slants and sell the regular version, I am tempted to pick up a pair of alpha primes for us to measure to see if there are production inconsistencies.
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I wanted to directly address the question of distortion. Here is a set of measurements of a T50RP (Green), an Alpha Dog (Red), and an Alpha Prime I made this morning using our standard production test fixture, which overstates THD, as you will see below. These units were grabbed from inventory and I made one and only one set of measurements on one set of each phone, no cherry picking.
(http://i.imgur.com/h5fywCR.png)
When we use our in-house test fixtures, our worst case results look like the red or blue. There is a spike that can occur at 500Hz; it is random on Fostex drivers and is not affected by our tuning or processing, and it is almost entirely second order and therefore relatively benign. On about half the headphones it is totally absent. I suspect it has to do with driver alignment to the magnets or within the driver frame but we have not found a way to isolate this.
That said, we have done extensive listening tests and this is not audible to us with music so as long as the peak is narrow and under 2% it’s considered a pass. For those of you familiar with Innerfidelity’s measurements you know that many TOTL headphones have at least one spike that pops well over 1%, some as high as 10%, so this is neither unusual nor something we consider a problem.
When we measure on a G.R.A.S. 45CA we find the THD measures improve. Green and Blue = Prime, Red = TOTL Dynamic headphone, >$1K USD (it's a well regarded product I'm using only as a reference so it'll remain anonymous but the results are consistent with Innerfidelity). Further, at 90dB, the Prime's THD, aside from the 1-2 peaks, is ~0.2%, which is extremely presentable for a genuinely closed can.
(http://i.imgur.com/SnGWQYG.png)
From our tests it's clear that better measurement systems reduce measured THD, while marginal or low quality fixtures add distortion that is not present in the actual signal, so it’d help to understand exactly what you’re using when you measure.
Here are photos of the G.R.A.S. 45CA and our production test jig.
(http://i.imgur.com/vj6unKa.jpg?2)
Note: our fixture is designed to deliver a precise fit to our phones so our measurements are extremely repeatable and consistent. All our microphones are calibrated, and our A/D converters are 24/192.
(http://i.imgur.com/cg5AT5w.jpg?1)
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That said, we have done extensive listening tests and this is not audible to us with music so as long as the peak is narrow and under 2% it’s considered a pass. For those of you familiar with Innerfidelity’s measurements you know that many TOTL headphones have at least one spike that pops well over 1%, some as high as 10%, so this is neither unusual nor something we consider a problem.
I'm not sure if what we heard at the meet was distortion or what not. But it took seconds to determine something was off with No_One411's Alpha Primes. It is uncertain if this is an isolated issue.
When we measure on a G.R.A.S. 45CA we find the THD measures improve. Green and Blue = Prime, Red = TOTL Dynamic headphone, >$1K USD (it's a well regarded product I'm using only as a reference so it'll remain anonymous but the results are consistent with Innerfidelity). Further, at 90dB, the Prime's THD, aside from the 1-2 peaks, is ~0.2%, which is extremely presentable for a genuinely closed can.
From our tests it's clear that better measurement systems reduce measured THD, while marginal or low quality fixtures add distortion that is not present in the actual signal, so it’d help to understand exactly what you’re using when you measure.
How do you mean the G.R.A.S. 45CA is a "better measurement system"? Seems to me Tyll at IF is using a much more advanced system and things do not look "better" THD wise vs most TOTL dynamics. Particularly in the mids. Consider the Mad Dogs which use a similar non-modified driver:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf)
... and the Alpha Dogs:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAlphaDog2014.pdf (http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAlphaDog2014.pdf)
Let's talk about repeatablity... What's going on with these two Mad Dogs? Why are these so different FR wise?:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDog2014.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf
Note: our fixture is designed to deliver a precise fit to our phones so our measurements are extremely repeatable and consistent. All our microphones are calibrated, and our A/D converters are 24/192.
Apparently best case scenario you still some QC issues though.
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The Mad Dogs look different there due to them being different revisions. I think one might be pre-2.0 MD and the other is MD Pro, IIRC. As far as I know, latest MD is 3.2, and Pro came after and utilizes baffle from AD. That's not made clear up front...had to have been following threads and done some digging in the past.
Tyll's THD measurments of the MD/AD are more consistent with what I've measured with my in-ear mic as well. I have never found them to be that problematic, really, but I have yet to test the Prime myself. Slants did quite well in this area.
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Quote from: mrspeakers on Today at 12:41:28 PM
I'm not sure if what we heard at the meet was distortion or what not. But it took seconds to determine something was off with No_One411's Alpha Primes. It is uncertain if this is an isolated issue.
When I get the phones back I will give the results here, test and listening.
How do you mean the G.R.A.S. 45CA is a "better measurement system"? Seems to me Tyll at IF is using a much more advanced system and things do not look "better" THD wise vs most TOTL dynamics. Particularly in the mids. Consider the Mad Dogs which use a similar non-modified driver:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf
... and the Alpha Dogs:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersAlphaDog2014.pdf
Let's talk about repeatablity... What's going on with these two Mad Dogs? Why are these so different FR wise?:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDog2014.pdf
http://www.innerfidelity.com/images/MrSpeakersMadDogA.pdf
Quote from: mrspeakers on Today at 12:41:28 PM
Note: our fixture is designed to deliver a precise fit to our phones so our measurements are extremely repeatable and consistent. All our microphones are calibrated, and our A/D converters are 24/192.
Apparently best case scenario you still some QC issues though.
Mad Dog 1.0 vs Mad Dog Pro (Tyll mislabeled it).
We do not have a "QC issue," our repair rate is well below 1%.
In no way did I mean to imply our system is "better" than Tyll's, simply that we have vetted our work on our own and on G.R.A.S. systems. We'll be getting time on a test-head, soon, too.
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So what we have here is another case of a DIY planar that can be measured as less than optimal or even substandard by 3-4 independent rigs and confirmed by 5+ independent sets of ears prior to measuring, yet somehow again the vendor is claiming their lone rig is the standard by which all should be judged and those sets of subjective ears are hearing imaginary artifacts that happen to correlate with their independent measurements but not the vendors? Just want to make sure I have that right.
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Dear Dr. Speakers,
First I'd like to thank you for your contribution to the headphone space. I really enjoyed the Mad Dog 3.something and thought it was a really good headphone at the $300 or less price for something closed and fun.
That being said, this thread really worries me.
Do you have any additional measurements? Maybe posting something in the time domain and a corresponding comment of how that translates into what people hear. I thought you learned to measure from someone on the forums years ago? Have you kept up with the latest in terms of measurement technology and theory?
Also, if you're pleating an already established driver, how do you manage the variability in distance from the traces to the magnets? Are you compensating somehow with regard to the magnetic array? How are you compensating for the fact that the motor forces on the diaphragm are no longer aligned?
Regards,
Pasta Lover
First, thanks for the promotion to "Dr."
I didn't learn measurements from Head-fi, I had started measuring on my own and in the process I picked up ideas from Tyll, Marv, Bluemonkeyflyer, and a few others. I tried to share a few ideas as well.
The motor traces are still aligned to the magnets. The reduction in distortion as well as the extension in frequency response pretty much make it clear there's no issue with respect to the magnet array. If there were, THD would increase.
I'll pass on correlating time domain to what people hear, and leave that to others... I think there's a lot on Changstar about that topic.
Cheers,
Dan
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We do not have a "QC issue," our repair rate is well below 1%.
That is not my impression Dan. Just some quick HF browsing yielded this:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones/7125#post_10569887
http://www.head-fi.org/t/737566/mrspeakers-alpha-prime-impressions-and-discussion-thread/765#post_11176986
http://www.head-fi.org/t/613576/mad-dog-by-mrspeakers-modified-fostex-t50rp-review/1050#post_8693971
http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones/360#post_9699376
http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones/7320#post_10618660
http://www.head-fi.org/t/676095/mrspeakers-alpha-dog-revealed-the-worlds-first-production-3d-printed-headphones/6120#post_10349281
...
Maybe that (and whatever does not make it to the forums) is < 1%. FWIW I see less of these issues with other headphones such as the HD800s among many others.
Furthermore, this is something I never understood about your product lines: How many revisions released are we looking at with your products? The differences based on IF measurements are not subtle. What is (are) your target curve(s)?
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So what we have here is another case of a DIY planar that can be measured as less than optimal or even substandard by 3-4 independent rigs and confirmed by 5+ independent sets of ears prior to measuring, yet somehow again the vendor is claiming their lone rig is the standard by which all should be judged and those sets of subjective ears are hearing imaginary artifacts that happen to correlate with their independent measurements but not the vendors? Just want to make sure I have that right.
hello,
and apparently these concerns are not relevant to the vendor? facepalm
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The motor traces are still aligned to the magnets. The reduction in distortion as well as the extension in frequency response pretty much make it clear there's no issue with respect to the magnet array. If there were, THD would increase.
Hi, Dan.
I have a question regarding this. Hopefully, it's not too ridiculous.
I take it you have aligned the pleats with the magnetic array so as to minimize distortions, which is great, but how do you account for the variable magnetic flux?
Also I'd think the absence of THD in a measurement rig only means there is no significant resonance/excess vibration issues, but may not give much insight into irregular non-linear diaphragm response. Though I could be mistaken.
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So what we have here is another case of a DIY planar that can be measured as less than optimal or even substandard by 3-4 independent rigs and confirmed by 5+ independent sets of ears prior to measuring, yet somehow again the vendor is claiming their lone rig is the standard by which all should be judged and those sets of subjective ears are hearing imaginary artifacts that happen to correlate with their independent measurements but not the vendors? Just want to make sure I have that right.
You have reached conclusions that are polar opposite of my intent.
I'm here to have an open conversation, and to improve our product. When I make a mistake I try to learn from it and improve, and I've been transparent about our test equipment and acceptable results because it's the right thing to do.
I have not said that what you heard is wrong, the opposite is true. I fully accept and believe that the unit you have sounds bad. And I accept responsibility for shipping it, though I'm not sure what the problem is or what went wrong.
I accept it measures poorly on your independent rigs. I do wonder what these independent rigs look like and how they work, and because the quality of the rig affects results I shared some of our own experience. Surely if you're going to publish test results you should share your test system. Being able to reproduce results is the central tenet of science, yes?
The simple fact that you're hearing major problems with this phone to me says there's a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd appreciate seeing some of the test fixtures and how they work because it will help me, and others on the forum, understand the results better, and maybe reproduce them.
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The simple fact that you're hearing major problems with this phone to me says there's a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd appreciate seeing some of the test fixtures and how they work because it will help me, and others on the forum, understand the results better, and maybe reproduce them.
hello,
this seems fair.
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Hi, Dan.
I have a question regarding this. Hopefully, it's not too ridiculous.
I take it you have aligned the pleats with the magnetic array so as to minimize distortions, which is great, but how do you account for the variable magnetic flux?
Also I'd think the absence of THD in a measurement rig only means there is no significant resonance/excess vibration issues, but may not give much insight into irregular non-linear diaphragm response. Though I could be mistaken.
Hi Bill, long time!
Variable magnetic flux is a reality in all planar drivers; if the flux becomes too nonlinear it compresses the extremes of the excursion, which shows as THD. Basically, if the driver is operating non-linearly in flux you'll see THD. Resonances may or may not show as THD; if you have a perfect oscillation at 1K it will show now unusual THD but the time domain would look bad.
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I accept it measures poorly on your independent rigs. I do wonder what these independent rigs look like and how they work, and because the quality of the rig affects results I shared some of our own experience. Surely if you're going to publish test results you should share your test system. Being able to reproduce results is the central tenet of science, yes?
The simple fact that you're hearing major problems with this phone to me says there's a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd appreciate seeing some of the test fixtures and how they work because it will help me, and others on the forum, understand the results better, and maybe reproduce them.
Not sure what you mean about "you should share your test system". You have seen and used my test rig. We've measured your cans together and got repeatable results (until you moved the cans with the mic too close to the pads). And we have gone through this "quality of the rig affects results" before as well, when results don't paint an amezeballs picture about your products.
Futhermore, issues with your headphones have been brought up through a variety of different rigs (including one with an Audio Precision + HATS). Not sure how casting doubt on all measurements but yours will help you get to the root cause of a likely faulty headphone and perhaps even headphone lines.
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Hi Bill, long time!
Variable magnetic flux is a reality in all planar drivers; if the flux becomes too nonlinear it compresses the extremes of the excursion, which shows as THD. Basically, if the driver is operating non-linearly in flux you'll see THD. Resonances may or may not show as THD; if you have a perfect oscillation at 1K it will show now unusual THD but the time domain would look bad.
Yeah, it's been a while! I hope I'll get to see you at CanJam!
Anyway, thanks for responding! I've been studying up on planar magnetic technology as of late... so any extra information helps.
It seems to me like the V-planar technology you have implemented in the Alpha Prime is harder to control than the regular convention planar design with a flat diaphragm, hence the question. I was under the impression that conventional flat diaphragms, while experiencing variable magnetic flux, still gets a relatively even spread of force applied to them when in motion, whereas with V-planar, a fold that's further away from the magnets (one side) may be experiencing a weaker force than one that's closer (and then vice versa for the other side), so it seems like there is a somewhat uneven distribution of force over the whole surface of the diaphragm. But I guess it's probably as you say: not too significant.
I can't help but wonder if that's why this specific pair of Alpha Prime is acting up, though. I heard the previous pair, and I think there was something weird going on in the midrange. Would you mind sharing exactly what was wrong with it?
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I can't help but wonder if that's why this specific pair of Alpha Prime is acting up, though. I heard the previous pair, and I think there was something weird going on in the midrange. Would you mind sharing exactly what was wrong with it?
Yes. Both sides of the headphone were missing a key gasket. One had bass rolloff starting at 40Hz, the other at 80, with imbalance in the mids and messed up transient response, it was off by about 4 dB in places. But I obviously missed something else, or something failed when I shipped (I think this unlikely).
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Yes. Both sides of the headphone were missing a key gasket. One had bass rolloff starting at 40Hz, the other at 80, with imbalance in the mids and messed up transient response, it was off by about 4 dB in places. But I obviously missed something else, or something failed when I shipped (I think this unlikely).
Ah, I see.
Well, I wouldn't be surprised. Sounds like getting the diaphragm pleated in a uniform manner, then reassembling the whole thing, securing it, and making sure nothing goes bad while the user goes mountain-hiking or scuba-diving with the headphone on... sounds insane. Hahaha.
Honestly, though, I can understand why issues may arise with such an extensive modification. I'm still looking forward to hearing a good pair, as I really liked your Alpha Dogs! I considered getting one, but since I already had an open planar, I wanted a dynamic closed-back instead. Perhaps a properly performing Alpha Prime will pull me to full planar side.
But thanks for your responses. I've learned quite a bit. :)
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Not sure what you mean about "you should share your test system". You have seen and used my test rig. We've measured your cans together and got repeatable results (until you moved the cans with the mic too close to the pads). And we have gone through this "quality of the rig affects results" before as well, when results don't paint an amezeballs picture about your products.
Not sure how all these claims on your side will help you get to the root cause of a likely faulty headphone and perhaps an entire headphone line.
hello,
if this is the case, then rehashing the process doesn't seem all that fair after-all, my bad.
i can understand defending one's work, what i have issues with is discarding others work as inherently flawed and thus invalid.
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LOL! yup. Have gone through this before to some extent with a somewhat decent sounding Alpha Dog... depending who you ask. I didn't think that one was that horrible, but I don't think Alex and others liked that one that much:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1208.msg32948.html#msg32948
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the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?
i suggest this:
1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.
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the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?
i suggest this:
1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.
hello,
i really like this suggestion!
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the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?
i suggest this:
1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.
I'm up for this. Seems to be the most fair way to go about it.
I for one am more than willing to give Dan the benefit of the doubt. Shit happens. We all know murphy's law strikes often with many of our favorite vendors. The Internet tends to amplify things too.
P.S. BTW, I'm glad you guys are keeping things civil. Let's not get mean spirited about this - not that we would.
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I am okay with keeping my pair in it's current state as the control set...
...so long as they are fixed to actual tuning if it is decided that something is wrong before they are returned to me.
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I'm up for this. Seems to be the most fair way to go about it.
I for one am more than willing to give Dan the benefit of the doubt. Shit happens. We all know murphy's law strikes often with many of our favorite vendors. The Internet tends to amplify things too.
P.S. BTW, I'm glad you guys are keeping things civil. Let's not get mean spirited about this - not that we would.
I have a different suggestion, that I feel will be fairest for everyone. Marv, come down to our shop after hours with your rig and the phone in question. We can not only test it, but pull a couple from inventory. You can pick them at random.
You can also see part of our "DIY" operation.
EDIT: You will also be able to see the performance on our systems.
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I have a different suggestion, that I feel will be fairest for everyone. Marv, come down to our shop after hours with your rig and the phone in question. We can not only test it, but pull a couple from inventory. You can pick them at random.
You can also see part of our "DIY" operation.
Don't forget to take backup with you, Marv. You never know with the Audio Industry. :boom:
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Dan,
What's the problem with judging based on the current pair? You fixed it, so it should be fine.
Unless A-Dogs really can't be upgraded to A-Prime. Sometimes things just don't work even when you do your best.
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Dan,
What's the problem with judging based on the current pair? You fixed it, so it should be fine.
Unless A-Dogs really can't be upgraded to A-Prime. Sometimes things just don't work even when you do your best.
The whole problem is that it appears I did NOT fix it. :-)
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Dan,
What's the problem with judging based on the current pair? You fixed it, so it should be fine.
Unless A-Dogs really can't be upgraded to A-Prime. Sometimes things just don't work even when you do your best.
But when charging $400 for the upgrade, I am sure they can afford to just put in a different driver if the upgrade just won't work with the existing driver of the Alpha Dog being upgraded.
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But when charging $400 for the upgrade, I am sure they can afford to just put in a different driver if the upgrade just won't work with the existing driver of the Alpha Dog being upgraded.
If the headphone still has issues it will be replaced. I have a "lemon law" that anything that has two problems gets replaced. It doesn't get used much, so that's easy for us to do.
EDIT: That said, I really want to know what went wrong.
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The whole problem is that it appears I did NOT fix it. :-)
What makes you think there's something wrong with this pair?
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What makes you think there's something wrong with this pair?
Because everyone who heard it said it sucks eggs.
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So I guess the answer is polite shift to "no". Hmmm.
That's a polite shift to "I think this is more fair."
Testing will be done with Marv and I present and the test systems will be accessible to both of us, as will the headphones in questions, and we can directly compare results.
EDIT: I appreciated your suggestion, but I think open, fair and transparent testing is best for everyone.
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Because everyone who heard it said it sucks eggs.
That doesn't mean it's broken: that just means it sucks.
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That doesn't mean it's broken: that just means it sucks.
Just a little bit rude...
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Dan obviously didn't think it sucked when he sent it back to you. But now that some people dislike it, "Oh well, there must be something wrong with that particular pair . . ." Maybe--but maybe not.
I'm keeping an open mind; I'll hear it at Axpona.
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If it helps, I owned both the Alpha Dogs and Mad Dogs 2014 versions from Headphone Bar in Vancouver. I heard two versions of the Alpha Prime recently, and I posted a very brief impressions somewhere on Head-Fi.
Edit: Here http://www.head-fi.org/t/755078/best-sub-1k-closed-circumaural-suggestions-please/15#post_11325413
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@Dan: I'd love to swing by; but I moved an hour and a half up north from Irvine. Also my headphone listening rig is about 150lbs worth of transport, DAC, and custom tube amp. :-) I'm sure we'll find an opportunity one day.
On the repaired Alpha Dog: I guess it's possible the repaired pair sent down was damaged in shipping. I think it's important to remain open-minded.
Anyways no biggie. Some random person just contacted me. He's sending his Alpha Dogs to me.
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Whatever the solution is, I'd just like to hear a good pair approved by Dan himself so I can get the most accurate idea of what the Alpha Prime is supposed to be like. Whether that involves Dan sending an extra Pair he himself personally finds successful to No_One or anybody else on this Touring list, or the original gets sent back (again), and is replaced by the new one. No_One obviously deserves better as the owner of a 1,000 dollar pair of headphones.
I personally will undoubtedly be posting whatever impressions I make of the Alpha Prime on the head-fi thread, and I wouldn't want to wrongfully trash the Alpha Prime by reviewing a stinker unit-- or, if it were lousy sounding in the first place, I can at least say that Dan backs it. No insult intended there, I just want to be truthful when making the impressions public. If 2 or 3 pair are sent out, and they sound differently, I think it'd be nice to let people know that there are issues of production variation as well.
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WOWZA! Great writeup man. You sort of some crucial buried there - seems all the golden nuggets on HF are that way. Seems like you are experiencing the same issues people pointed out here.
I didn't want to post it more publicly, since I did not purchase either one of the Alpha Primes myself, and I tend to only bash things I paid money for lol
But in this case, I think it's important people make an informed decision. $1000 is a lot of money. So I posted it in the impressions thread.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/737566/mrspeakers-alpha-prime-impressions-and-discussion-thread/1170#post_11355279
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That's a polite shift to "I think this is more fair."
Testing will be done with Marv and I present and the test systems will be accessible to both of us, as will the headphones in questions, and we can directly compare results.
EDIT: I appreciated your suggestion, but I think open, fair and transparent testing is best for everyone.
hello,
not to be mean spirited but it is a no.
the issue seems to be that on "independent" measuring rigs these cans have problems.
a suggestion is made to include more pairs of 'phones, more pairs of ears and more ways to measure and the vendor responds with an invitation to a closed environment with two sets of measurement equipment (in-house and carried in at marvey's risk and expense) and two pairs of ears.
that is NOT what i would call "open, fair and transparent testing."
i am detecting a reluctance on the vendor's part to submit his products for that kind of testing. :(
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I understand the concern about consistency issues. Pads, how they are deformed, how headphones are placed on rigs, even a mm makes a difference. I've gotten it down pat by now. It's just a matter of experience. So has Tyll. We all have our own techniques to ensure consistent results. Heck, send them over to Tyll too.
See this thread: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,39.0.html (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,39.0.html)
and this post: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,362.msg5796.html#msg5796 (sorry, prior post was wrong one)
I've heard all the bullshit excuses before, i.e. "but but but, the measurements will be different every time"; and I've always said, the measures DO need to be compared relatively - that is apples to apples.
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hello,
@marvey + 348. :money:
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I too would like to see at least one other verified good pair of Primes sent out to a few folks for subjective analysis and measurements along with this repaired pair (well, after it is repaired again). The more samples hitting more ears and gathering some sort of at least partially objective data on them will be the best way to get a holistic view of all things Alpha Prime. And given the multitude of reports on APs sounding at least slightly different, the more samples that can be tested by multiple parties, the better.
I can understand why you may not want to do this, Dan, for a variety of legitimate reasons. And it would be easier to just have Marv come your way, and while I generally trust him, that would offer a much smaller set of data and impressions. On the upside, especially with a small group of Pyrates, we've been pretty responsible with small tours and such, so there is little risk in that regard. Plus the findings from testing a couple pairs, at least, from a few different members could be quite beneficial to this discussion and, by extension, the entire community.
Don't make me buy a pair just for the sake of using your 15-day return policy. :P (I probably wouldn't go through the hassle in the end and would feel like a jerk for doing it, but I've contemplated it.)
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I invited Marv as I thought he lived in OC and was relatively close but if a couple of you are interested in coming here to do testing using your systems and sit down with us as we test with ours, or failing that to just have a friendly mini-meet, the door is open and you'd be welcome (with notice and planning, obviously).
If you visit you can check out our test systems, test and compare results to your own and your own headphones, or just listen. I'll give a partial tour of the plant (sorry, we do have stuff that'll be off limits) and provide food. Of course anyone who wants to listen can come to CanJam in just a few weeks; we've got 3 tables and will have a lot of stations so you can take your time.
Peace, and if there's interest in coming to our shop to do testing let me know.
P.S. Sorry, no roadshows.
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Hats off to Dan for handling these rowdy pirates better than expected. +1 for you
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hello,
this will be mean spirited.
for whatever reason this vendor is refusing to allow his product to be measured and auditioned independently by this community.
his replies are self-serving at the very least. (provide food? all i want is a skating chimpanzee and dancing girls on the side and i will drive down from the Great Northwet [if i can avoid the smokies i can get 20 mpg (on premium)].)
the facts seem to be this:
1. there is a loaner pair of Alpha Primes making the rounds on Changstar.
2. they sound like poo
3. they measure like poo
4. they have been sent back for "repair" and still sound/measure like poo
5. a proposal to allow members of this community to audition and measure the current loaner, a "correct" pair provided by the vendor and a community sourced pair is not acceptable to the vendor. instead it is proposed that any member with a measurement rig make the trek to the vendor's facility to accomplish the same thing that could be done without the time and expense required to come to the Master.
(as an aside, the loaner program here is transparent in stating that shipping to the next Pyrate on the list is the responsibility of the one just before. i would hazard a guess that packing, shipping and insuring 3 pairs of cans would be much less than dismantling, transporting and setting up a measurement rig would be.)
again, that is NOT what i would call "open, fair and transparent testing."
Hats off to Dan for handling these rowdy pirates better than expected. +1 for you
yes, this is true, if you feel that essentially refusing to engage this community's concerns and ignoring their experience and expertise is a win.
very sorry for the vitriol. i feel that Mr Speakers is not being transparent, open, or fair and it makes me sad. was really hoping for a pair of planers that don't cost an arm and a leg, but after this exchange anything from San Diego is out of the question.
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but after this exchange anything from San Diego is out of the question.
Umm... Don't condemn everyone in San Diego! :)p1
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Darin Fong Audio
hello,
if i am ever able to afford KOSS ESP-950's your cable is my next purchase. :money:
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I really should not have read this. I just purchased the Alpha Dog, and am extremely happy with it. When Sean Chan upgrades to Alpha Kugo next year, I'll purchase his Prime. Very hard to resist.
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I can understand a faulty set of cans. AFAIK I think Fostex might have some QC issues themselves in their stock T50RPs, and this might make things a bit more complicated as it may be up to Dan to cherry pick and even match drivers before assembly and perhaps even perform individual tunning. I don't know if he does that with his TOTL cans, but could be, and it might not be cheap.
I'm perfectly OK with owning up to the problem and offering repairs and/or replacement. That's the ideal.
I also do not dislike the Alpha Dogs in general. I heard them before and did not feel they were bad at all. I might have a preference for the Mad Dogs but this is what I said before about these cans:
"I felt these had pretty good bass and mids. Some felt these were a tad bright, but I feel they were pretty good in that regard. Perhaps there was a bit of lack of air, but consider these are closed cans. Pretty clean CSDs even in the location of the right driver null."
I can understand Dan's apprehension in circulating this particular set. In fact, I did not take them with me, but there was a measurement request by the owner. It may or may not shed some light as to what the problem might be. Then, it's up to the owner to circulate it. It may very well be that this particular set has some FR issue or perhaps distortion is higher than average. If it measures poorly then fine, it is not a representative sample anyway and Dan already owned up to the problem.
What will not fly very well however is this "quality of measurements" or "undiscerning ears" deal to discredit dissenting views that has come up recently.
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yes, this is true, if you feel that essentially refusing to engage this community's concerns and ignoring their experience and expertise is a win.
very sorry for the vitriol. i feel that Mr Speakers is not being transparent, open, or fair and it makes me sad. was really hoping for a pair of planers that don't cost an arm and a leg, but after this exchange anything from San Diego is out of the question.
Refusing to engage the community's concerns? Why is he even in this thread trying to make things better then?
I'm probably the person who's been most vocal of my dislike of the Alpha Prime's sound and I have absolutely no vested interest to defend Dan or his gear. But right now this thread is getting pretty ridiculous.
Dan claims these are defective, fine. Get another pair to confirm. Sit them side-by-side for an AB and measure them on the same rig to be certain. I'm guessing that it's going to be the same sound that we still won't like.
I still think something constructive can come out of this. I think Dan should reevaluate the technology or tuning that went into Prime using our feedback.
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hello,
this will be mean spirited.
for whatever reason this vendor is refusing to allow his product to be measured and auditioned independently by this community.
his replies are self-serving at the very least. (provide food? all i want is a skating chimpanzee and dancing girls on the side and i will drive down from the Great Northwet [if i can avoid the smokies i can get 20 mpg (on premium)].)
the facts seem to be this:
1. there is a loaner pair of Alpha Primes making the rounds on Changstar.
2. they sound like poo
3. they measure like poo
4. they have been sent back for "repair" and still sound/measure like poo
5. a proposal to allow members of this community to audition and measure the current loaner, a "correct" pair provided by the vendor and a community sourced pair is not acceptable to the vendor. instead it is proposed that any member with a measurement rig make the trek to the vendor's facility to accomplish the same thing that could be done without the time and expense required to come to the Master.
(as an aside, the loaner program here is transparent in stating that shipping to the next Pyrate on the list is the responsibility of the one just before. i would hazard a guess that packing, shipping and insuring 3 pairs of cans would be much less than dismantling, transporting and setting up a measurement rig would be.)
again, that is NOT what i would call "open, fair and transparent testing."
yes, this is true, if you feel that essentially refusing to engage this community's concerns and ignoring their experience and expertise is a win.
very sorry for the vitriol. i feel that Mr Speakers is not being transparent, open, or fair and it makes me sad. was really hoping for a pair of planers that don't cost an arm and a leg, but after this exchange anything from San Diego is out of the question.
I don't get your post. I don't see how Dan is preventing anyone from measuring or auditioning his cans (nor how he could possibly do so even if he wanted to). He is just not agreeing to facilitate auditions in the way certain people here would want him to, which is his right. It seems to me that Dan's principal obligation is to his customers, and not to us as a "community", and in that regard he sounds like he is making every effort to fix the problem set of AP in question. (If ultimately there is not a technical issue that needs to be fixed by Dan, but the can is just not to the liking of that owner and other Changstar members then time will tell and so be it.) If Dan wants to facilitate further auditions of other samples on Changstar's terms or his terms or not at all then that is all his right and there is no obligation or failing in his part. Of course, people here and elsewhere will write what they will write based on the samples they have and Dan will have to just live with that too. But the implication that he is somehow failing the community or not being transparent seems false to me. The fact that he is communicating at all on this board is a positive IMO and the fact that he doesn't want to facilitate loaner tours is an irrelevant point to me -- some manufacturers will, but many will not.
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Here's the plan:
- Continue with tour of existing Alpha Primes (defective or not, lets keep it on tour for sake of consistency)
- As I've already said, I got another Alpha Prime coming in from a HF'er. We'll pass this one along too.
If the incoming pair sounds better or great. The issue has been resolved. The existing pair can be labeled as defective and we'll give Dan an chance to fix it - we'll totally make it up to Dan. We've been wrong here before and had to eat our words. If the incoming pair sounds just as sucky, then maybe the Prime's are just something we don't like.
For now, let's not arrive at any conclusions (other than this existing pair does kinda suck)
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P.S. ultra, after you measure this pair, send it to Clem. I'll provide you with another Alpha Dog, hopefully sooner than later. We'll use the same loaner schedule for the second pair.
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Thread cleaned-up and re-opened for purposes of loaner program.
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I wanted to directly address the question of distortion. Here is a set of measurements of a T50RP (Green), an Alpha Dog (Red), and an Alpha Prime I made this morning using our standard production test fixture, which overstates THD, as you will see below. These units were grabbed from inventory and I made one and only one set of measurements on one set of each phone, no cherry picking.
(http://i.imgur.com/h5fywCR.png)
When we use our in-house test fixtures, our worst case results look like the red or blue. There is a spike that can occur at 500Hz; it is random on Fostex drivers and is not affected by our tuning or processing, and it is almost entirely second order and therefore relatively benign. On about half the headphones it is totally absent. I suspect it has to do with driver alignment to the magnets or within the driver frame but we have not found a way to isolate this.
That said, we have done extensive listening tests and this is not audible to us with music so as long as the peak is narrow and under 2% it’s considered a pass. For those of you familiar with Innerfidelity’s measurements you know that many TOTL headphones have at least one spike that pops well over 1%, some as high as 10%, so this is neither unusual nor something we consider a problem.
When we measure on a G.R.A.S. 45CA we find the THD measures improve. Green and Blue = Prime, Red = TOTL Dynamic headphone, >$1K USD (it's a well regarded product I'm using only as a reference so it'll remain anonymous but the results are consistent with Innerfidelity). Further, at 90dB, the Prime's THD, aside from the 1-2 peaks, is ~0.2%, which is extremely presentable for a genuinely closed can.
(http://i.imgur.com/SnGWQYG.png)
From our tests it's clear that better measurement systems reduce measured THD, while marginal or low quality fixtures add distortion that is not present in the actual signal, so it’d help to understand exactly what you’re using when you measure.
Sorry, I didn't get to this post. The images were blocked at work and I didn't follow up last night - so I really had no context. @Dan: can you post THD in logarithmic Y scale? We don't hear linearly. THD in linear Y-scale is a misleading at best and deceptive at worst (marketing materials). Note that Tyll also uses log scale for THD. I'll take a few comparative non-linear distortion measurements of other headphones using the same method when I get more time tonight or tomorrow. What happens with log scale is that stuff on the bottom shelves get brought up into context. You'll see less peaky narrow distortion spikes once the THD graphs are presented and visualized properly.
Also, the rig I use is different from that of years ago. This is well known. I now use the version 2 system. I also don't describe or post the detail of my measurements rig for reasons of not wanting people to rip off my ideas for commercial purposes. This is also well known. I thought I made this clear to you years ago when you came over to have the contest between the Rastapants and Luis' headphones.
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As I indicated, your method of presentation where you elect to show linear scale tends to be misleading because we hear on the logarithmic scale. My software package actually lacks to means to display in linear scale. However, I have attached the same distortion graph from my measurement, but this time with select points where the actual % value is indicated. Once you understand this, your distortion graphs really don't seem that much different from mine. The narrow distortion spikes you have in reality really are not that narrow.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8811;image)
Also, I would disagree with you on 2% or even 1% distortion being insignificant. I know for a fact that some people here (Anaxilus) tend to be very sensitive to midrange distortion and could easily pick up -65db or 0.05% distortion. This is based on his correlating his experience with the headphones evaluated here and their respective objective measurements / distortion results. There's probably a bell curve distribution. I don't tend to be bothered my midrange distortion as much as Anaxilus - my threshold for midrange is a little below 0.10% distortion - which seems to be the average here.
While I cannot attest to absolutes of my methodology, I do know that the distortion graphs here (the method used, the presentations used) do correlate to sound quality - specifically to the aspect ofs "cleanness" or "fidelity" to a looser extent. In other words, it works based on the collective experience of people here. You can actually correlate the measurement to certain sonic phenomena. You must realize that before I even took the measurements, I highly suspected high midrange distortion (on my rig, using my methods, and my presentations). As Anaxilus said "64kbps mp3" - a term I said was quite apt in describing the overall nature of the sound outside of the frequency response.
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Please excuse me if I have missed something Marv. Are these the measurements of the original Primes we are continuing on the original loaner program or a different pair from Dan or a head-fi member? Just want to know as I am getting close on the list, and want to be sure I'm looking at the right graphs.
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These measurements reflect the existing headphones - currently in Gilberto's possession.
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Along with linear vs log scale, would also be good to know how SPL differs to factor that into distortion results as well. Unless I missed that...
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-10db line = 90db SPL on my rig. I think Dan said he was also pushing 90db. There will be variances of course between measurement rigs.
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Welp, got measurements back:
Frequency Response
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8815;image)
Distortion Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8817;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8819;image)
CSD Right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8821;image)
Distortion Left
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8823;image)
Did these cans sound to me like the FR suggests? Nope. They sounded like ass to me. There is probably an objective reason for that (other than personal bias and predisposition)... but that's proly up to Dan-the-man to figure out with his superior quality gear.
Distortion is still crap in the mids, compared to a much more affordable dynamic such as the HD600:
HD600 distortion right
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8825;image)
Channel imbalance is repeatable.
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Sorry to be off topic , but will you guys do a measurement on Ether?
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Not yet. Didn't bring the measurement shack. Proly will happen later.
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Not yet. Didn't bring the measurement shack. Proly will happen later.
I'm placing $20 on whichever one you measure and listen to needing repair and personal attention from Dan.
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Just an update: I had a chance to hear some Alpha Dog Primes at CanJam and they sounded pretty good - that is normal in terms of tonality. Sort of MadDog like, but less laid back. In other words, pretty darn good in terms of FR.
I did speak with Dan at CanJam. I think he honestly and sincerely felt really bad about the screw up. He simply and frankly admitted that they screwed up, not once, but twice. He's acknowledged the fact that he had to redouble his QC efforts.
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Aren't you guys getting another pair sometime? Would be great to see more measurements.
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That's good to hear.
It's good to see manufacturers who are willing to admit faults and mistakes, and who work hard to try to correct these over time. I must say that I was starting to become a bit discouraged by some of Dan's responses earlier, which disappointed me, because I was one of many people who quite enjoyed the Mad Dog T50RP mods.
To know that it appears that he sincerely acknowledges these problems and that he's working to improve quality control and assurance leaves me with a more positive impression of his character, that I hope translates to his business practices as well.
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So, I talked with Dan during CanJam, and listened to a "good" pair of Alpha Primes. Now that we confirmed that my pair is bad, I don't think there's much reason to continue the tour with a bad pair, so out of respect for Dan, I'll have the current guy send it back to Dan after he's done.
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Sure. Mass production is hard. If fixed tolerances can't be spec'd (because inherent variance is too high), it's inevitable turds are going to slip through. The question is if that is acceptable. I'm on the side of cutting Dan some slack for making it right, but it assumes that (more than) a few turds end up in wild because buyers didn't understand the odds or didn't notice, and didn't understand their role in screening. Caveat emptor.
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Makes sense!
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Measurements of pair sent from anonymous person purchased through retail channels and sent directly to me:
Retail Purchased Alpha Prime:
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=9341;image)
Compare to NoOne's defective (from a few weeks ago) Alpha Prime #2 Left (top), Right (bottom)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=8655;image)
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What's the relevant calculation to get %distortion from the difference between its level and the frequency in question? That spike is absolutely unreal for a $1k headphone.
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-25db down from the fundamental is about 5-6% - this is at the spike.
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Oh, Jesus. I'll have to look up the math for that, so that I can do those calculations for myself when nobody is around to give me the answer, but that puts things into perspective. Over 5% is madness. I don't know if that's just another defective pair, or if all units are going to have some poor distortion figures, but I certainly don't think the Alpha Prime will ever be a part of my desktop rig.
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Or just use this site: http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-thd.htm
Looks better and worse in some regards. And this is a good pair?
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Marv, that 2nd pair is my pair right, and not Bill's?
I suppose you can preface that with...all Asians look alike.
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Alright, I made some time to read this thread.
So - measurements and QC issues aside - has anyone (considered relatively reliable by the membership herein) heard the Alpha Primes and considered them a further improvement over the Alpha Dogs ?
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Marv, that 2nd pair is my pair right, and not Bill's?
I suppose you can preface that with...all Asians look alike.
lol. people keep sending me stuff. hard to keep track.
P.S. I did fiddle quite a bit to get both sides to match up as close to possible. The Primes are sensitive to positioning. I picked the best L and R results that matched the best. Took several measurements which involved complete removal of the headphone and placement back on the C.U.N.T.
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-25db down from the fundamental is about 5-6% - this is at the spike.
I don't understand this. Every 10db is a factor of ten, right? So -25db should be 1/(10^2.5) = 0.00316 = 0.316%, right?
What am I missing? Apparently you're taking the square root of (10^2.5) for some reason.
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db = 20 x log(distperc/100)
distperc = 10 ^ ( db/20) x 100
10 ^ (-25/20) x 100 = 5.6234
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I don't understand this. Every 10db is a factor of ten, right? So -25db should be 1/(10^2.5) = 0.00316 = 0.316%, right?
What am I missing? Apparently you're taking the square root of (10^2.5) for some reason.
You're thinking power. Factor of ten for voltage (SPL) is 20dB
Alright, I made some time to read this thread.
So - measurements and QC issues aside - has anyone (considered relatively reliable by the membership herein) heard the Alpha Primes and considered them a further improvement over the Alpha Dogs ?
Simply put, no
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P.S. I did fiddle quite a bit to get both sides to match up as close to possible. The Primes are sensitive to positioning. I picked the best L and R results that matched the best. Took several measurements which involved complete removal of the headphone and placement back on the C.U.N.T.
I'm new to headphone measurements. Can anyone tell me how a pair of Alpha Primes with these results (the spike mentioned above) would sound?
Would it just show as distortion at that particular frequency?
Thanks!
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The peak (and general elevation of 2nd order) is kind of in a bad area around 500Hz which is smack in the crucial midrange. I've found that people have different sensitives to midrange distortion. Examples of other headphones with elevated distortion in the midrange include HE-400 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1127.msg29907.html#msg29907 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1127.msg29907.html#msg29907)) and SRH1440 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,463.msg8264.html#msg8264 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,463.msg8264.html#msg8264)).
Some people notice it. Some people don't. There are papers out there that people can hear distortion -30db down. Some pyrates have taken listening tests and say they can hear distortion -55db down. (I'm not one of them.) Keep in mind that the measurements were taken with SPL around 90db. This is very loud. However, many pyrates have found good to decent correlation of these distortion measurements to overall sound quality.
It's difficult to describe how this distortion sounds. It's not like clipping were you hear crackling, etc. It's more just like an overall low-fidelity sound, i.e. "kinda shitty", "dirty", "unclean", "not clear", or "weird". You can read through some of my comments I think in the HE-400 thread. Anaxilus has a good way for describing this midrange distortion: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg59037.html#msg59037 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg59037.html#msg59037)
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What does this sound like to you (subjectively) compared to the other pair?
I've been following this pretty closely.
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This pair seems slightly better that NoOne's pair #2, although I actually think the Primes I heard at CanJam were the best I've heard. I'm not sure the exact source where this pair #3 came from since anonymous person did not tell me exactly.
In terms of the midrange quality, (I don't want to use distortion - let's say I'm talking purely subjectively) all pairs I've heard #2, #3, and at CanJam were about the same. #1 might have been best in terms of midrange quality. The CanJam one had fabulous tonal response, akin to MadDog, but just a touch brighter that that (essentially almost perfect to me). This #3 pair's tonal response is somewhere between the thinner #2 and CanJam. #3's staging is also better than #2 and on par with the CanJam pair. Stage in slightly in front. I think #2 was just totally screwed up with the stage slightly behind or at the top of my head.
BTW, I did fluff up the pads and play around to get the best seal.
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I don't see the benefit in remaining anonymous anymore. There seemed to be a lot of caveats with regard to the previous measured pair so I bought a new, unopened pair and shipped it straight to Marv for testing. I wanted the community to have a pair that wasn't "catastrophically wrong" in any way. It turns out, the pristine pair and the "catastropically wrong" pair weren't actually significantly better than my new, sealed pair.
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They are heading up so NoOne can compare. Everything I said is based on memory, but using same sets of equipment, recordings, etc.
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Interesting. I have a pair that I sent in when they were testing whether it was feasible to do upgrades.
They were Alpha Dogs before the upgrade to Alpha Primes.
I like them but I can't say that they're significantly better than when they were as Alpha Dogs - just different.
Of course I don't have a lot of experience of other headphones to compare them with so take that for what it's worth.
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Different is probably best way to put it. Alpha Dogs had a bit of treble hardness and glare. Primes eliminate this glare, but at the expense of an overall dirtier sounding midrange. YMMV, people have different tastes, etc. I'd probably be much less nitpicky, but these are very expensive headphones. FWIW, I do prefer the standard Alphas to the Primes. Just a personal preference.
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marvey - can you line up L + R in one graph?
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zero did you sent your measurements to Dan directly? what was his reply?
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So I head these today at AXPONA and though that they were the best closed headphones I heard at the show.
TH900 was a little to sparkly up top and doesn't even have any more isolation than most open 'phones, ruining half of the reason for making a close 'phone.
EL-8C had no cup resonances at all but but was ruined by a weird suckout in the treble it shared with its open sibling.
The LCD-XC sounded like it needed more polyfill of fiberflass.
The Sony Z7 was also crying out for some fiberglass and maybe a bit of dynamat.
The Paradox might sound better for less money but I've never heard it. I don't know what Dan's other models are like either. He only had the Alpha Prime and the Ether.
I could definitely hear some distortion in the mids but it didn't sound much different from my own T50RP mods in that regard and compared to all the other problems most closed 'phones have I'll take that as minor when this had a nice even FR, fast-ish decay in the treble without razors of death in the CSD, a cup that doesn't ring like a poorly tuned bell, and a bit of soundstage too.
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You make good points - hard to argue against them.
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It also might be because I'm just a big fan of the T50RP driver for some reason.
I ended up selling my HD650 after I was happy with my T50RP mods. Technically, it did most things better than my modded T50RP but I just ended up not listening to the 650s anymore so they got sold. My T50RP eventually got replaced by my modded Lambda Normal Bias.
Not sure if those are gonna get replaced anytime soon since the only things I head today that I liked better were the HE1000 and 009.
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The AD and the ADP are IMO not bad at all when one gets a proper fit. I could say the same thing about Lambdas. IMO it is easier to get proper fit with the Paradox thought. I think both the Paradox and the ADs are tuned towards similar tone goals.
I agree with you that EL-8C, LCD-XC, TH900, and Sony Z7 are proly not up to snuff.
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I agree with you that EL-8C, LCD-XC, TH900, and Sony Z7 are proly not up to snuff.
It doesn't seem like very many closed 'phones are up to snuff.
That's why I gave up on them, did my best to reduce ambient noise, and switched back to open.
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The Focal Spirit Pro are not too bad, but they were a bit uncomfortable for me.
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Curious, are using FLAC or mp3's? Let's not beat around the bush about the potential levels of distortion of an actual shipped unit. Even then, I have yet to hear an ADP that didn't make my music sound like mp3's. I'll take treble peaks I can EQ or cups I can dampen over a driver that wrecks my music's fidelity. No freaking way am I spending money to turn FLAC or wav files into lossy compression. Not for me. To my ears, every ADP I've heard has had more notable distortion than the typical T50rp which I am also quite familiar with.
You should really look into a Paradox. The difference is not subtle to my ears. Yeah, I'll apply heavy EQ before I ever go that direction. A direction that means one could end up paying $1000 for what in my opinion could end up being easily one of the worst headphones I've ever heard (depending on the variety one receives in their box of chocolates).
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Some lossless, some lossy. Didn't matter either way though. I don't think that's a good comparison either since harmonic distortion doesn't really sound like encoding artifacts.
Maybe that one was just particularly good or something. I couldn't really comment since I've only heard one.
My plan for my next closed headphone is is to turn a SR-207 I picked up cheap into a DIY 4070. If that doesn't work out I may check into the Paradox.
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I don't think that's a good comparison either since harmonic distortion doesn't really sound like encoding artifacts.
It's certainly possible it's something else unrelated but possibly correlated. I can tell you for a fact that many of the headphones I find offensive seem to measure high D2 which is supposedly the the same distortion that supposedly makes me love my crappy tube amps. So either D2 isn't the musical euphony some people claim it to be or it's a by product of something else nasty in headphones.
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The psychoacoustics of this would seem to get very complicated.
IME things with high-ish D2 in the midrange give female vocals a lush and syrupy quality that I enjoy. I think that's why D2 is sometimes considered euphonic, or at least less offensive.
Unfortunately harmonic distortion always comes with intermodulation distortion so those lush vocals also come with a reduction in separation and imaging. If the high-ish D2 continues up into the treble then all the separation goes to hell in a busy passage and it just turns in to a wall of sound.
What one likes and what ones will put up with may also vary depending on ones particular sensitivities. If someone just just listens to "audiophile" recordings female vocals with light accompaniment, small jazz ensembles, or something like that then they might not mind higher levels of D2.
OTOH, my primary genre is metal. The guitar's come with just the right amount of distortion pre-added. They don't need any more, thank you very much. The imaging will go to hell if you do. The Alpha Dogs I heard had the T50RPs usual lush mids but the imaging in busy passages didn't go to hell. It actually kept it together pretty well. From that I'd assume that the distortion on that pair wasn't particularly high and that it confined itself to the mids.
Beyond that, you and I just may be looking for different things in headphones. I don't remember reading anything where enumerated some kind of broad outline but I gather that in general you're looking for ultimate resolution. What I'm looking for is a little different. First and foremost it shouldn't be fatiguing. I should be able to listen to it for as long as I want to without mental or aural fatigue. It doesn't matter what else it does right if it makes my ears bleed, literally or metaphorically. Second would be separation. I like to hear every individual instrument, each individual reverb, and every single guitar overdub.
If there was a perfect headphone then my goals would probably be subsumed by yours but since there isn't we all have to make different tradeoffs.
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You heard the meet pair. It's been remarked by folks who have heard all three that Dan's meet pair sound significantly better than the new pair I bought and the upgrade Jeff sent back TWICE.
The issue isn't that the headphone isn't good, it's that Dan can't admit there might be inconsistencies in QC. If he'd be less insecure instead of complaining to management at other places and just engage, I would give him a pass. Instead, he acts like a dill weed. Great, he's nice at meets, but if there is demonstrable differences between pairs of your headphones, you can't admit your mistakes, and you constantly rewrite your own personal history, I can't recommend your products.
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The pair I heard at Axpona was pretty good, much better than any A-Dog I've ever heard. It's not my preferred sound--still tonally on the brighter side but no annoying spike.
I believe Dan's doing his best with QC and that the problem lies with Fostex. Maybe he's reluctant to blame them, so he gets blamed instead. I do not foresee this issue's being resolved because the only way to do it would be to scrap a lot of drivers.
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Fostex's weak QC would result in a lot of driver pairs being inbalanced by a couple dB, but I strongly doubt that you'd see a lot of variation in the FR.
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I guess the mystery is solved. It's QC issues or cherry picking.
Thanks for the input Claritas.
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There is more to it that that Mav. An important part of a headphone is indeed the driver, and Fostex may have some QC issues that a modder would have to handle if he or she wants to insure primo performance. But then there is also construction. If you force feed a defective ADP into a measurement baffle, you can make it measure like this.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=9373;image)
But once construction issues are taken into consideration it can measure like this (and sort of sound like so):
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=2105.0;attach=9377;image)
What you are seeing above in both cases is the same ADP BTW (NoOne's)...
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I meant overall QC, not just the driver, wheather on Fostex's end or his.
Wasn't NoOne's the one which was missing a gasket or something?
I was taking conformation from Claritas that the one at Axpona was better than others he'd head. That would make it seem like they can sound good (or at least better, depending on your preferences) and that Dan is letting some/toomany/whoknows defective units slip out the door.
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Being in business selling your creative work, almost always involves two things:
1) Creating a compelling product
2) Producing it over and over again, exactly like the original, with that production done by people other than the creator(s).
The first part is far more compelling in media articles, but the second is equally significant.
Chefs like Bobby Flay have had to create systems whereby their culinary creations are presented to customers, without the chef being present. Many do an excellent job, because this is a well known part of the business.
In his Head Fi blog, Jason has described the difficulties of consistently reproducing electronic designs - which are easier to reproduce than transducers, especially modified ones.
When a craftsman can produce his own stream of products (e.g. custom guitars), you don't have these issues. And if you are a giant multinational corporation (Sennheiser) than you full-time QC staff. In between there be sea monsters. p:0
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LOL! NoOne's history with his cans and what happened after has some history... Even in this thread:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2105.msg57828.html#msg57828
I did hear some good Alpha Dogs (not prime) in the past and they were good IMO. I told this to Dan, but he seemed a bit disappointed that I didn't stained my pants at how awesome his 3-D plastic printed cans sounded. Dunno, I stand by what I said before, his cans are not bad. Out of his T50RP mods I still prefer his Mad Dogs.
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My Alpha Dogs are excellent - but I know that they were one of the early ones done by Dan personally.
I think that the best value in his products is the "Mad Dog Pro" which has the baffle from the Alphas, but use the T50RP enclosure to lower the cost. It has a lot of the good qualities of the Alpha Dogs at a lower price, and a lower weight.
I use my Mad Dog Pro's a lot - always with the Schiit Vali (and with the HRT Music Streamer Two Plus that I used in my main system before I replaced it with Schiit.)
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I like the MadDog Pro quite a bit. That's a headphone that should be considered for the leaderboard. Alpha Dogs are good / decent. The Alpha Primes are a sidegrade from the ADs, i.e. different rather than better (depending upon personal priorities). The Prime's have better upper-mid / treble characteristics at the cost of lower-fidelity mids.