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Author Topic: Alpha Dog Prime - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements  (Read 16291 times)

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mrspeakers

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2015, 10:39:43 PM »

Hi, Dan.

I have a question regarding this. Hopefully, it's not too ridiculous.

I take it you have aligned the pleats with the magnetic array so as to minimize distortions, which is great, but how do you account for the variable magnetic flux?

Also I'd think the absence of THD in a measurement rig only means there is no significant resonance/excess vibration issues, but may not give much insight into irregular non-linear diaphragm response. Though I could be mistaken.


Hi Bill, long time! 

Variable magnetic flux is a reality in all planar drivers; if the flux becomes too nonlinear it compresses the extremes of the excursion, which shows as THD.  Basically, if the driver is operating non-linearly in flux you'll see THD.  Resonances may or may not show as THD; if you have a perfect oscillation at 1K it will show now unusual THD but the time domain would look bad.
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ultrabike

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2015, 10:41:18 PM »

I accept it measures poorly on your independent rigs.  I do wonder what these independent rigs look like and how they work, and because the quality of the rig affects results I shared some of our own experience.  Surely if you're going to publish test results you should share your test system.  Being able to reproduce results is the central tenet of science, yes? 

The simple fact that you're hearing major problems with this phone to me says there's a problem that needs to be fixed. I'd appreciate seeing some of the test fixtures and how they work because it will help me, and others on the forum, understand the results better, and maybe reproduce them.

Not sure what you mean about "you should share your test system". You have seen and used my test rig. We've measured your cans together and got repeatable results (until you moved the cans with the mic too close to the pads). And we have gone through this "quality of the rig affects results" before as well, when results don't paint an amezeballs picture about your products.

Futhermore, issues with your headphones have been brought up through a variety of different rigs (including one with an Audio Precision + HATS). Not sure how casting doubt on all measurements but yours will help you get to the root cause of a likely faulty headphone and perhaps even headphone lines.
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Bill-p

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #72 on: February 24, 2015, 10:54:59 PM »

Hi Bill, long time! 

Variable magnetic flux is a reality in all planar drivers; if the flux becomes too nonlinear it compresses the extremes of the excursion, which shows as THD.  Basically, if the driver is operating non-linearly in flux you'll see THD.  Resonances may or may not show as THD; if you have a perfect oscillation at 1K it will show now unusual THD but the time domain would look bad.

Yeah, it's been a while! I hope I'll get to see you at CanJam!

Anyway, thanks for responding! I've been studying up on planar magnetic technology as of late... so any extra information helps.

It seems to me like the V-planar technology you have implemented in the Alpha Prime is harder to control than the regular convention planar design with a flat diaphragm, hence the question. I was under the impression that conventional flat diaphragms, while experiencing variable magnetic flux, still gets a relatively even spread of force applied to them when in motion, whereas with V-planar, a fold that's further away from the magnets (one side) may be experiencing a weaker force than one that's closer (and then vice versa for the other side), so it seems like there is a somewhat uneven distribution of force over the whole surface of the diaphragm. But I guess it's probably as you say: not too significant.

I can't help but wonder if that's why this specific pair of Alpha Prime is acting up, though. I heard the previous pair, and I think there was something weird going on in the midrange. Would you mind sharing exactly what was wrong with it?
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mrspeakers

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #73 on: February 24, 2015, 10:59:28 PM »

I can't help but wonder if that's why this specific pair of Alpha Prime is acting up, though. I heard the previous pair, and I think there was something weird going on in the midrange. Would you mind sharing exactly what was wrong with it?

Yes.  Both sides of the headphone were missing a key gasket.  One had bass rolloff starting at 40Hz, the other at 80, with imbalance in the mids and messed up transient response, it was off by about 4 dB in places.  But I obviously missed something else, or something failed when I shipped (I think this unlikely). 
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Bill-p

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #74 on: February 24, 2015, 11:04:02 PM »

Yes.  Both sides of the headphone were missing a key gasket.  One had bass rolloff starting at 40Hz, the other at 80, with imbalance in the mids and messed up transient response, it was off by about 4 dB in places.  But I obviously missed something else, or something failed when I shipped (I think this unlikely). 

Ah, I see.

Well, I wouldn't be surprised. Sounds like getting the diaphragm pleated in a uniform manner, then reassembling the whole thing, securing it, and making sure nothing goes bad while the user goes mountain-hiking or scuba-diving with the headphone on... sounds insane. Hahaha.

Honestly, though, I can understand why issues may arise with such an extensive modification. I'm still looking forward to hearing a good pair, as I really liked your Alpha Dogs! I considered getting one, but since I already had an open planar, I wanted a dynamic closed-back instead. Perhaps a properly performing Alpha Prime will pull me to full planar side.

But thanks for your responses. I've learned quite a bit. :)
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DrForBin

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #75 on: February 24, 2015, 11:09:33 PM »

Not sure what you mean about "you should share your test system". You have seen and used my test rig. We've measured your cans together and got repeatable results (until you moved the cans with the mic too close to the pads). And we have gone through this "quality of the rig affects results" before as well, when results don't paint an amezeballs picture about your products.

Not sure how all these claims on your side will help you get to the root cause of a likely faulty headphone and perhaps an entire headphone line.

hello,

if this is the case, then rehashing the process doesn't seem all that fair after-all, my bad.

i can understand defending one's work, what i have issues with is discarding others work as inherently flawed and thus invalid.
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ultrabike

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #76 on: February 24, 2015, 11:12:45 PM »

LOL! yup. Have gone through this before to some extent with a somewhat decent sounding Alpha Dog... depending who you ask. I didn't think that one was that horrible, but I don't think Alex and others liked that one that much:

http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,1208.msg32948.html#msg32948
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Orenthal

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #77 on: February 24, 2015, 11:46:47 PM »

the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?

i suggest this:

1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.
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DrForBin

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #78 on: February 24, 2015, 11:49:07 PM »

the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?

i suggest this:

1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.


hello,

i really like this suggestion!
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Marvey

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Re: Alpha Dog Primes - Stream of Consciousness and Eventual Measurements
« Reply #79 on: February 24, 2015, 11:59:32 PM »

the question in the back of everyone's mind - and everyone's BS detector is going off right now - but let's give dan the benefit of the doubt. this headphone was already sent back once - how many more times do we need to send it back?

i suggest this:

1) ultrabike keeps current pair
2) dan sends ultrabike new pair
3) marvey or someone else here get a random pair in the field to send to ultrabike.
4) send all three pairs to some trusted measurers / ears around here: marvey, hans, etc.


I'm up for this. Seems to be the most fair way to go about it.

I for one am more than willing to give Dan the benefit of the doubt. Shit happens. We all know murphy's law strikes often with many of our favorite vendors. The Internet tends to amplify things too.

P.S. BTW, I'm glad you guys are keeping things civil. Let's not get mean spirited about this - not that we would.
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