CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: Power Conditioning & Power Cables  (Read 8606 times)

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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #50 on: February 01, 2015, 03:54:48 PM »

That's not accurate; there are clear legal stipulations for obtaining a patent. Two key ones are 1) the invention cannot be obvious a practitioner skilled in the art and 2) reduction to practice. You have to demonstrate that the invention actually works.

OK, no more argument on that unless/until I can discuss it with someone who actually works with patents. If you happen to be such a person, then I have to accept what you say.
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Power cords improve sound quality because they shield input current from the electromagnetic and radio frequency fields that surround and bathe one's equipment in radiation that add noise in the form of hash and grunge to your system. This is hard to hear until you hear first-hand a side-by-side comparison with and without the cord in place. It's not just current flowing in a cord from the receptable to the component from point A to B. There are signficant EM and RF fields that are generated from power cords and the components themselves; the cord and component are emitting EM radiation that adds up as noise.

Your demonstrations are very interesting. I was wondering recently how one detects EMI/RFI. However, I am still not convinced by the cause/effect relationship here. One doubt that I have is this: If there is sufficient EMI or RFI to affect a piece of audio equipment, surely it is going to enter that piece of equipment in other ways as well as via the power cord?

There is also the question of whether or not the equipment is designed to cope with that anyway. A for-instance (rather than an attempt to go off topic) is the current audiophile lore on sound cards, which is baaad... all that noise in there... can't possibly be good, and yet there are several very highly desirable internal sound cards from manufacturers such as Lynx and RME, whose engineers obviously took into the account the environment in which they would work. Don't hifi box engineers also know about ambient and power-line fed noise?   

Dave, I know you have answered that question, and mentioned that it is power conditioners, not cords, that make the difference.
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Armaegis

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #51 on: February 01, 2015, 04:55:24 PM »

Furman's rack mount products that they sell under their pro banner use the same technology and have the same specs as their consumer series filters. What I'm not familiar with though are their power factor models like the Elite 20 PFi or the P-1800 PF R on the pro side, or whether these can get around the usual restricted current problem endemic to all other series type filters. Others have reported sonic degradation when putting them in front of big amps though, and looking inside I'm not surprised that might happen. All usual suspects stuff with the exception of that big enclosed EMI/RF filter on the right side of the case.


Suppose we can find internal pics of whatever piece of gear we're looking at. Are there any telltale signs of what we should or shouldn't be looking for? (I'm painting very broad strokes here I realize)
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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin

DaveBSC

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #52 on: February 01, 2015, 07:34:43 PM »

There is also the question of whether or not the equipment is designed to cope with that anyway. A for-instance (rather than an attempt to go off topic) is the current audiophile lore on sound cards, which is baaad... all that noise in there... can't possibly be good, and yet there are several very highly desirable internal sound cards from manufacturers such as Lynx and RME, whose engineers obviously took into the account the environment in which they would work. Don't hifi box engineers also know about ambient and power-line fed noise?   

In order to pass FCC tests, a component cannot simply belt out RF or EMI to the point that it would clearly and obviously degrade other electronic equipment. There are still real world examples of that happening though, particularly with things like FM tuners.

One example I can give is that my old Dynaudio studio monitors, when used with their stock, unshielded power cords, would hum and buzz whenever my cellphone would receive a text message or email if the phone was within a few feet of the speakers. Replacing the stock cords with well shielded PS Audio cords completely solved the problem.

The Lynx and RME cards are certainly well regarded, but these cards are usually the brand's entry to mid-level products. In general their top line stuff is all external, and they connect to computers and DAWs via USB or FireWire. The vast majority of A/D and D/A processors at the pro level from Focusrite, MOTU, Apogee, etc are external.

Power cords and conditioners work hand in glove. If you're on a limited budget, I would go with something like the MiniBuss, and use stock cords or low cost cords like the Belden Asylum cords. If you can step up to something like the UberBuss level though, then you should really think about spending a couple of hundred bucks on power cord upgrades, first to connect the conditioner to the wall, and then on to your components. It's just a lot of trial and error. I've had a boat load of different cords through my system over the years, from many of the brands out there. Some of them made no difference at all, some sounded worse than what I was already using, and some were just different and not really better or worse.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #53 on: February 01, 2015, 07:51:05 PM »

Suppose we can find internal pics of whatever piece of gear we're looking at. Are there any telltale signs of what we should or shouldn't be looking for? (I'm painting very broad strokes here I realize)

Inside of every series filter which are by far the most common type of power filter, you're going to find all of these pieces. The number of them are the layouts will be different, but they're all gonna be there in some fashion. When we're talking about a high performance audio system, the first thing we don't want is a series filter in the first place. They just don't get along with amplifiers.

So once you've moved on to a parallel filter, then what do you do? Well there's a number of ways to go at it, and none of them are necessarily right or wrong. Shunyata and Chang run the incoming AC through a series of passive noise insulating tube things. Running Springs uses a combination of massive inductors, high-end caps, and transformers. Audience AR conditioners use their capacitors and some other stuff. Then you have the odd ball "black magic" stuff from Audio-Magic and Synergistic Research, which use very hush hush mystery boxes. Supposedly AM stuff and the SR PowerCell stuff do actually work, but I haven't tried them.

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bmichels

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #54 on: February 01, 2015, 10:17:47 PM »

I join this thread because I believe that I have a problem that may need a Power conditioner or a power cable :

With my Headphone on, I hear a Hummmm from my Eddie Curent 445 tube Amp. This is a tube amp with a separate PSU.  And the very strange thisgs are that :

- I tested tha Amp in another house, and the Hummm is gone !

- The Hummm disapear also when I put my hand on the 445 case. May be my is body creating some sort of "human mass"  ?

--> so there must be some bad electrostatic noise or bad mass in my house's AC circuit ? (I hope it cannot damage the 445 !)

Should I buy a power conditioner or a better Power cable ?

what do you think ?



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Solderdude

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #55 on: February 01, 2015, 10:57:24 PM »

Before you spend a lot of money on things you may not need try to connect a piece of wire connected to a metal part of the amps body (under a screw on the bottom perhaps) and connect the other end of that wire to the safety ground of a wall socket (3 pin socket) MAKE SURE YOU DO NOT CONNECT IT TO THE L OR N WIRE !!!
OR a non painted part of a central heating element (provided it uses metal piping)
OR to a (non painted) waterpiping.
Check if the hum is gone after you grounded the casing.

If it is gone start looking where something went wrong internally when it concerns grounding.
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Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

zerodeefex

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #56 on: February 01, 2015, 11:20:25 PM »

I actually solve a lot of people's fanless chassis problems with that. Good call.
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Armaegis

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #57 on: February 02, 2015, 02:59:47 AM »

For some reason my amps are ridiculously sensitive to noise in the power lines.

Just a moment ago I was listening to the noise floor of the amp, and I could hear a high pitched noise modulating up and down regularly. When I unplugged my laptop, the high pitch stopped (still noise though). When I plugged it back in, I realized the modulating pitch was from the blinking charging LED of my laptop. Ugh.

Overall the noise has gotten a lot worse lately and I'm not sure what to do about it. At first I thought the amp was faulty... but I have monoblocks and they both developed this noise at the same time, and the noise changes depending on the time of day (quieter at night) which is why I suspect something is funny with the power in my house rather than the amps.

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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin

johnjen

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #58 on: February 02, 2015, 03:07:50 AM »

So, to add a distinctly different approach…

And granted this approach may not be 'realistic' for many, but this could just be a matter of one's 'dedication' to the art and science of achieving the ultimate in tunes.   popcorn 

I have no regen units, isolators, added circuits, other than a non-inline rfi/mov filter upstream from the load, (Shunyata Defender).

What I do have is a dedicated single run of standard romex 12/2 w/ground feeding just the dac and amp.
It's terminated with (1 each) Shunyata & Synergistic duplex receptacles to which my Shunyata Python and alpha digital cables feed the the dac and amp.  And its no where near an ideal feed since it's 2 pieces of romex, simply wire nutted together mid way from the panel.
But I have added magic pixie dust in the form of WAQy chips to the main bus feeds to the panel and to this dedicated branch circuit that feeds just my ≈110 watts of audio system load.

The results along with many other tweaks are truly wonderful.
One of the reasons I did this is because the in the wall house wiring, being of the post and pillar type was simply inadequate.  I have measured 2 of the house branch circuits and my 2 dedicated feeds (a second dedicated circuit for the computer) are far superior, in every measureable and audible way.  Which stands to reason.

The thing is I probably have ≈ $750 in the dedicated run (exclusive of the Shunyata power cables) with the full pixie dust treatment.  And I added these enhancements over time so it wasn't a big all in one splurge of $$.

But the 2 components that lead me in this direction were finding a 'tweako' duplex receptacle and then trying the bottlehead power cable kit.  These 2 changes started a series of experiments, mostly with the Bottlehead kit power cable design just using better materials with further treatment of the cables.

This also lead to experimenting with fuses, after hearing from 2 HeadFi'r DIY'r types that they could be a HUGE improvement.  They were indeed.

And using the ASCC test as a measure, as the power cable refinements were added, the ASCC numbers kept climbing…

So fussing with the ac delivery straight from the panel with audiophool grade connectors and cables along with additional treatments and WAQy chips, along with tweako fuses, has lead me to my curent 'state of the tweak'.

The SQ is studendous and is still improving as I accumulate hrs., albeit in spurts and pauses here and there.
But it thus far has always re-bounded back after a pause or a rare 'toilet dump experience' where the SQ then proceeds to best the previous high water mark, in SQ.

Now why all of this should make changes of such magnitude, I can only surmise.  But if I were to guess it is all about being able to deliver all of the power the entire system needs/demands AS it calls for it.  Perhaps a way of perceiving this could be as a result of an increase in the resolution of the ac power feed as it's delivered.  It simply responds more quickly, akin to an increase in dampening factor or like a slew rate increase.
At least that's what it sounds like as the system continues to improve, as veils and electical/electronic limitations drop away and the SQ becomes all the more sublime. 
The specific SQ changes, all relate to allowing more of the original signal to 'come thru' and not get 'blocked' or masked or limited in some way.
IOW the original signal is being fucked with less and less as the ac power distribution system is refined.
Why or what the exact 'mechanism' is that is directly attributable to this, I real ly can only guess at, at this point, but the ASCC tests tend to suggest some type of causal relationship.

And with the addition of The Rok into the system the SQ has taken another mother-may-I step up, yet again, with more of the same type of SQ improvements as the music signal is fucked with less and less.

Exciting times in audio indeed.


JJ
« Last Edit: February 02, 2015, 04:34:20 AM by johnjen »
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PWD-II w/bridge (lightly modded) - Schiit Ragnarok - The Rok (lightly modded) - HD-800 SAA modded, balanced & hardwired
Shunyata Python & α-Digital & Anaconda XLR - AudioQuest Coffee - Wyrd Schiit - 'Other' cables & Tweaks aplenty
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fishski13

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Re: Power Conditioning & Power Cables
« Reply #59 on: February 02, 2015, 04:23:08 AM »

got this built last evening before bed.

two basic single stage filters in parallel - one for digital and the other for analog. the two utility boxes are 4x4x2 1/8 and are connected. the filters are stacked, mounted with long bolts, but just poke above the top so i had to improvise.

before if i had the laptop charger plugged in on the same strip i would get very audible buzzing through my HPs at any volume. it's gone now.

i just need to convince my daughter now to give me My Little Pony sticker to slap on it to give it magical properties.



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