CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Soapbox => Topic started by: madaboutaudio on July 12, 2015, 05:54:37 AM
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Disclaimer: I don't necessary agree with his views but nonetheless, it's a topic worth discussing.
Do you agree or disagree with his views?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m7ERMu825m4
Edit, this is a far better video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
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I strongly agree with the first three minutes, but if I must be perfectly honest... His presentation and his voice are a little grating and I don't really want to watch the rest.
I believe that a "tl;dr" may be in order. And that's coming from someone who almost never wants a rough summary of the overall review.
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He's kind of all over the map. Cables are an easy punching bag, and relatively easy to test - it's called a blind fold. If you can't hear any difference, don't buy any.
Who says optical sounds better than coax? Optical is garbage, it's the worst of the digital connection standards.
Uh, twisted pair is actually a thing dude. So is star-quad. There's real science there. Same with shielded power cords. If you don't think shielded cords do anything, you're a fucking idiot.
Yes, Monster is run by hyper litigious douchebags. So is Apple. So are a lot of companies. There are companies that don't even make products, and whose sole existence is founded on acquiring IP and then suing over it. What's your point?
I'm all for being skeptical, but the audiophool sword has two edges. The other side is the "AudioCritic" type, that believes that speakers or headphones, and those alone, are what make differences in sound. Amps, DACs, etc are all the same, and they either make noise or they don't. Therefore, the O2/ODAC are the best products ever made. Those folks are just as much phools as the people spending hundreds on cable elevators, and/or are deaf.
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I could only watch the first two minutes and a half before acid reflux started to burn my esophagus.
I only agree that there are BS products that people are charging too much for to some easily parted from their wallets.
I disagree that skin effect and twisted pair are unscientific terms made up outside the realm of physics, or that openness, space, note weight/density are made up terms that don't apply to different gear signatures. Pretty much crystalizes the ignorant and arrogant attitude of the radicalized pseudo-objectivists that don't understand science or logic.
I think I found another one of his audio vids on youtube. check it out:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlDXZywedvc
He needs to just stfu and use EQ on his monoprice rig before he gets killed by a stingray.
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Or, there are people like me, who've personally heard differences between different amps and DACs, but who haven't sample enough cables to tell the difference, and who won't believe until they've heard something different.
That said, I'm open to different cables and different modes of transmission making a difference in sound quality. Just haven't heard it or been exposed to it, yet. Looking forward to learning more, though. Eventually. School isn't easy on the budget.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z756L_CkakU
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Btw, wtf is up with members of the English speaking world popping up in recent videos or TV sounding like I need to buy a Shamwow all the time? Can't they just talk like normal civilized human effin' beings??
Edit-Thune beat me to it.
Uptalking is one of the main reasons I don't usually date American chicks. Drives me friggin' nutz. Coupled with ummm...ummm...like, you know...for sure, like...kay? Then I gotta read this bubble hello kitty handwriting topped with circular dots over every 'i'.
facepalm
What was the question again? :P
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Uptalking, in the way I have seen it used, can convey condescension and perhaps a sense of authority on a subject, when there is none.
I've seen it also used quite often by parents onto children as well. It is annoying.
BTW, I think David L. Jones in the OP's video has a lot of outrageously expensive tools (*use uptalking). However, I do agree with him that $5k cables are a bit expensive, that Monster cables SUCK! and that there are a lot of crazy claims around audio stuffs.
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Dave Jones makes sense to me up until he begins to speak about capacitors.
He is imo not that dumb to seriously believe what he said about caps, like he is super passionate (Aussie way?) about stuff he likes he is the same about what he doesn't like. Went over the top quite a bit.
Another obvious is he hasn't got capable enough hearing, apparently. No faith in the field.
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Edit, this is a far better video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
I didn't know that Lou Ferrigno was in the audio biz :-Z
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Another obvious is he hasn't got capable enough hearing, apparently. No faith in the field.
Given how hideous the sound is to his video, I think you might be on to something there. I agree with a lot of what he says. But it seems kinda low rent to criticize high end gear in a video that looks and sounds like it was recorded by a special needs AV class using gear found in a burned out Radio Shack.
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I didn't know that Lou Ferrigno was in the audio biz
This is about as far as I got.
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Another obvious is he hasn't got capable enough hearing, apparently. No faith in the field.
He listens with his eyes.
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Uptalking is one of the main reasons I don't usually date American chicks. Drives me friggin' nutz. Coupled with ummm...ummm...like, you know...for sure, like...kay? Then I gotta read this bubble hello kitty handwriting topped with circular dots over every 'i'.
facepalm
What was the question again? :P
You do live in SoCal right? They aren't all like that. ;D
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The Audioholics video is better, but still problematic. The tag at the end "if a cable measures well, it will be indistinguishable from any other well measuring cable" is only a very small step away from all well measuring DACs sound the same. The L/R/C meter is simply not the end all be all, and 10G parallel home depot zip cord is not just as good as anything else.
There's just no substitute for getting some cables, putting on a blind fold, and having somebody swap them in and out at random.
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Are you guys familiar with Rane's PI 14? Best tweak on the face of earth!
http://parttimeaudiophile.com/2015/04/01/rane-corporation-and-the-ultimate-audio-enhancement/
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Interesting thread, interesting topic.
I remain very sceptical...
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Nobody can touch Coconut Audio.
http://www.coconut-audio.com/
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Nobody can touch Coconut Audio.
http://www.coconut-audio.com/
Patrick82 forever !
Where's that picture with the cable almost as big as his leg ?
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Edit, this is a far better video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG-3KyURXqk
[/quote]
"As the Borg would say, 'Resistance is futile'". - "Haha, exactly".
He looks like Lou Ferrigno, he interacts like Tommy Wiseau.
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Nobody but nobody touches Synergistic.
(http://www.audiofast.com/prods/ect-4_Big.jpg)
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So bad audio is like "The Room" and good audio is like "The Eternal Sunshine Of The Spotless Mind"?
May the schwartz be with you...
P.S. Mel Brooks for the win!
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The Audioholics video is better, but still problematic. The tag at the end "if a cable measures well, it will be indistinguishable from any other well measuring cable" is only a very small step away from all well measuring DACs sound the same.
God forbid!
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Nobody can touch Coconut Audio.
http://www.coconut-audio.com/
I literally fell off my chair watching this video. My mind is blowned (even 6moons articles don't seem as out of this world as this anymore)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ly_DB3zA65Y
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Another video, this time from tek syndicate. I feel they are very honest but "cables are placebo, don't buy them"? (13m:37sec)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjTxEwlypA0
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Another video, this time from tek syndicate. I think they are very honest but "Cable upgrades are placebo?"
I generally like those guys, but their knowledge of audio extends little beyond the folks at Tom's Hardware. Their "understanding" of headphone output impedance is shocking. They also have a deal with Mayflower, and have bought into the O2/ODAC line of thinking hook, line, and sinker.
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I literally fell off my chair watching this video. My mind is blowned (even 6moons articles don't seem as out of this world as this anymore)
6nuns have too virgin a set of ears to fully grasp the grit of coconut audio cables.
(http://reho.st/http://www.coconut-audio.com/images/other/MegaDistributor.jpg)
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(http://audiofederation.com/dealership/now-playing/equipment/IMG_9848-closeup.jpg)
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ri1mcid87LA
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Really love the Amazon reviews on Audioquest powercables:
http://www.amazon.com/AudioQuest-NRG-WEL-Signature-Series/product-reviews/B0055OM9WS/ref=cm_cr_dp_see_all_summary?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1&sortBy=byRankDescending
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Nobody can touch Coconut Audio.
http://www.coconut-audio.com/
WTF is this heresy
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Another "audiophoolery" video(I got to agree with him this time):
http://www.eevblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Sony-SR-64HXA-Low-Noise-Memory-Card-50.jpg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AO-vbzLPwSc
http://www.eevblog.com/2015/03/01/eevblog-719-sony-low-noise-audiophile-sdxc-memory-card/
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6nuns have too virgin a set of ears to fully grasp the grit of coconut audio cables.
(http://reho.st/http://www.coconut-audio.com/images/other/MegaDistributor.jpg)
That's a serious dick pic, ultra.
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Nah, he's just got tiny hands...
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Another "audiophoolery" video(I got to agree with him this time):
http://www.eevblog.com/2015/03/01/eevblog-719-sony-low-noise-audiophile-sdxc-memory-card/
Step 1. Take ordinary 64GB SDXC card. Step 2. Write "For Premium Sound" on it. Step 3. Profit.
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Patrick 82(1), he must be the HF legend. He is a professional troll. He even made a top ten. You can easily dedicate a thread to him...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhBrhqk5OwY
P.S. Number one is no surprise...
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Have a laugh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6cW9iFBOiqo
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A great deal of people I know would instantly pick the most expensive thing as "the best" and will be quick to tell you that if you cannot tell the difference, your ears are not good enough. It's amazing how much they'd spend just so they can pretend that they're connoisseurs. I think Thailand must be one of the biggest buyers of uber expensive cables - Zensati's are selling like hot cakes here.
Incidentally, the inflicted are all Asians (as in those living in Asia and exposed near exclusively to Asian cultures) hence the explosion of the super-high-end and snake-oils in the past few years alone with the Chinese economy while the more accessible stuff have not seen a proportional growth (apparently). In cultures that do not encourage independent thoughts, one is not trained to develop ones own metrics and will resort usually to selling price as a measure of a thing. Sad but true.
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(http://i.imgur.com/r43miek.gif)
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speaking of which, has anyone funded this cable?
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/vero-revolutionary-headphone-cable#/story
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Disclaimer: I don't necessary agree with his views but nonetheless, it's a topic worth discussing.
Do you agree or disagree with his views?
Gave up on the first one after a few minutes.
The second one was much more watchable. Pretty much spot on. The same logic extends to amps and DACs as well.
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Just wow:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NMk89MPRuw
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Marv and Anax are probably going to hate this but this video is pretty useful too...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BYTlN6wjcvQ
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poo poo poo :vomit: :vomit: :vomit:
Bigshot and Xnor would be so proud of you for you that link. Just provide a link to H-fi sound science before this thread goes all the way down the rabbit hole of facepalm.
Audiophoolery swings both ways. See if any of this applies to most members of the sound science thread or Hydrogen audio.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cognitive_biases
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See? Clockwork!
Of course that nice list of biases applies to everyone on all sides of everything because at the moment the only thing you can have an argument is another fallible human being like yourself.
That's why experiment is the way to settle disputes.
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Btw Mav, have you ever had a chance to AB your O2 versus the Ragnarok yet? I know you've been to a few meets and exhibitions. Do they sound the same??
Anyone who makes grand universal claims like, "there are only four audio parameters". Or says, "let me define transparency for you," is a fucking zealot.
Ethan Weiner is a zealot who hides behind selected samples and predispositions. He's not even an electrical engineer to my knowledge.
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Btw Mav, have you ever had a chance to AB your O2 versus the Ragnarok yet? I know you've been to a few meets and exhibitions. Do they sound the same??
Didn't have chance for that one. The only one I've seen was Dan's and too many people wanted a listen to the Ether.
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Didn't have chance for that one. The only one I've seen was Dan's and too many people wanted a listen to the Ether.
I dare you or anyone to do that AB and come back here with a straight face and honestly say they sound the same. If not, offer an 'objective' explanation why using Ethan Weiner's selected metrics.
Remember the Rag is summed on TRS, not that there would be a audible difference versus XLR via Ethan Weiner right?
Your ODAC is built in right? So you can't compare it to the Geek Out either? They should sound the same yeah per Ethan Weiner?
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Anyone who makes grand universal claims like, "there are only four audio parameters". Or says, "let me define transparency for you," is a fucking zealot.
He casts his "distortion" and "noise" nets pretty damn wide. By his definitions it's basically true, but not super useful.
I dare you or anyone to do that AB and come back here with a straight face and honestly say they sound the same.
If I thought they sounded different it would just be time build a switchbox...
Remember the Rag is summed on TRS, not that there would be a audible difference versus XLR via Ethan Weiner right?
Your ODAC is built in right? So you can't compare it to the Geek Out either? They should sound the same yeah per Ethan Weiner?
Who knows how that summing circuit works or measures. With it's higher Zout I wouldn't be surprised if it sounds and measures different than the balanced which I what I presume the numbers on Schiit's site are for.
My ODAC is separate. It's just the board from JDS. My O2 was built by Lord Voldermort himself. He sent it to me as a review sample.
I can't say I notice any differences between my ODAC and my Focusrite 2i2 or my O2 and my UHA-4 (as long as I don't demand too much power from it). The headout on by 2i2 seem to have some extra Zout though
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Your O2 sounds identical to the UHA4 to you?
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popcorn
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Your O2 sounds identical to the UHA4 to you?
I've only ever noticed a difference when trying to crank my T50RPs on the UHA-4.
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http://ubwg.net/scientists-discover-that-subjective-audio-is-wrong
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http://ubwg.net/scientists-discover-that-subjective-audio-is-wrong
Click baiting assholes
:spank:
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I believe that a "tl;dr" may be in order.
Yeah he just rants about the snake oil bullshit for 10 minutes
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But Ethan's videos have boobies in them. That's gotta mean he knows about, uh, sinewaves and stuff.
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There is more to those videos than boobies, and I'm not complaining.
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'audiofool/audiophool' seems to be an increasingly common term of derision I see on the internet these days.
Personally, and this is no great insight on my part, it seems to be a backlash against a) the rising popularity of high end personal audio products and b) the outlandish and irrational claims that some manufacturers make about their gear and c) various cloud fortresses on the internet where those claims get translated into perpetual hype machines.
Honestly it makes me upset when I see companies spruiking stuff that can't possibly render the improvements claimed because it just makes a hobby I enjoy seem more irrational than it already is.
I don't know what you can really do about it. About 16:33 in John Darko of Digital Audio Review actually talks a fair bit about this idea in an interview on Nathan Wright's podcast Ohm Air (Disclosure: Nathan supports me on Patreon) https://soundcloud.com/ohm-image/ohm-air-013-legally-inactive-pt-2
"Anybody who's not an audiophile... must think we're absolutely bonkers."
I had to go back and watch my own videos to see if I uptalk actually. Same as when I learnt about vocal fry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_fry_register I'm not trying to be Kai Ryssdal but I have to listen to myself talk all the time when video editing and it's been helpful to pick out terrible speech patterns I've developed.
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Spruiking? Looks like I learned something from this thread today! :)p1
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Spruiking? Looks like I learned something from this thread today! :)p1
Dunno if you found this because the first Google result is misleading, but in Australia spruiking specifically means selling or promoting something. Compare with 'plugging' or 'peddling'. I don't think I speak in a particularly Australian way but sometimes I surprise myself :P
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(Disclosure: Nathan supports me on Patreon)
This isn't Head-Fi, you don't have to disclose your whole financial history or pay a levy to contribute. Or self-censor, for that matter. For example:
Anyone who makes grand universal claims like, "there are only four audio parameters". Or says, "let me define transparency for you," is a fucking zealot.
That's bullshit, does claiming that the Earth revolves around the Sun make me an Acolyte of Ra?
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This isn't Head-Fi, you don't have to disclose your whole financial history or pay a levy to contribute.
Eh, I disclose it because I feel more at ease doing so more than anything else. Saves trouble down the road.
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Eh, I disclose it because I feel more at ease doing so more than anything else. Saves trouble down the road.
You picked the wrong thread to have a conscience in, bub.
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'audiofool/audiophool' seems to be an increasingly common term of derision I see on the internet these days.
Personally, and this is no great insight on my part, it seems to be a backlash against a) the rising popularity of high end personal audio products and b) the outlandish and irrational claims that some manufacturers make about their gear and c) various cloud fortresses on the internet where those claims get translated into perpetual hype machines.
Honestly it makes me upset when I see companies spruiking stuff that can't possibly render the improvements claimed because it just makes a hobby I enjoy seem more irrational than it already is.
I don't know what you can really do about it. About 16:33 in John Darko of Digital Audio Review actually talks a fair bit about this idea in an interview on Nathan Wright's podcast Ohm Air (Disclosure: Nathan supports me on Patreon) https://soundcloud.com/ohm-image/ohm-air-013-legally-inactive-pt-2
"Anybody who's not an audiophile... must think we're absolutely bonkers."
I had to go back and watch my own videos to see if I uptalk actually. Same as when I learnt about vocal fry. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vocal_fry_register I'm not trying to be Kai Ryssdal but I have to listen to myself talk all the time when video editing and it's been helpful to pick out terrible speech patterns I've developed.
I consider you a good reviewer in general even if our tastes and descriptive language may differ a bit. You do not come across as pretentious or "listen to my audio jargon."
There is nothing wrong with Patreon if you ask me. It is not a contract that obliges you for that depends on the content creator.
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That's bullshit, does claiming that the Earth revolves around the Sun make me an Acolyte of Ra?
That's equivocation. You've exceeded your fallacy limit for the month.
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That's equivocation. You've exceeded your fallacy limit for the month.
Ah, but you have no problem misrepresenting Ethan's claims.
Only four parameters are needed to define everything that affects audio quality: Noise, frequency response, distortion, and time-based errors. Let's look at each of these parameters in turn.
Noise is the background hiss you hear when you turn your receiver way up, and you can also hear it during quiet passages when playing open reel or cassette tapes. A close cousin is dynamic range, which defines the span (expressed in decibels) between the background noise and the loudest level possible before the onset of gross distortion. CDs and DVDs have a very large dynamic range, so any noise you may hear was either from the original analog tape, was added as a byproduct during production, or was present in the room and picked up by the microphones when the recording was first made.
Subsets of noise are AC power-related hum and buzz, electronic crackling, vinyl record clicks and pops, between-station radio noises, tape modulation noise, cross-talk, windows that rattle and buzz at high volume levels, and the triboelectric cable effect. You're unlikely to notice tape modulation noise outside of a recording studio because it's specific to analog tape recorders, which are fast becoming obsolete, and usually hidden by the music itself. You can sometimes hear it if you listen carefully to a recording of a bass solo, where each note is accompanied by a "pfft" sound that disappears between the notes. The triboelectric effect is also called "handling noise" because it occurs when handling poorly made cables. I haven't seen a cable with this defect in about 20 years.
Frequency response is how uniformly a device responds over a range of frequencies. Errors are heard as too much or too little bass, midrange, or treble. For most people, the audible range extends from about 25 Hz at the low end, to just shy of 20 KHz at the high end. Even though many audiophiles believe it's important for audio equipment to respond to frequencies far beyond 20 KHz, in truth there is no need to reproduce ultrasonic content because nobody can hear it. Subsets of frequency response are physical microphonics, electronic ringing and oscillation, and acoustic ringing. These subsets are not necessary for consumers to understand, but they are important to design engineers and acousticians.
Distortion is the common word for the more technical term nonlinearity, and it adds new frequency components that were not present in the original source. When music passes through a device that adds distortion, new frequencies are created that may or may not be pleasing to the ear. The design goal for audio equipment is that all distortion be so low in level it can't be heard. I'll return later to the notion that distortion can be pleasing when I explain why some audiophiles prefer vinyl records and tube-based electronics.
There are two basic types of distortion - harmonic and intermodulation - and both are almost always present together. Harmonic distortion adds new frequencies that are musically related to the source. In layman terms, harmonic distortion adds a slightly thick or buzzy quality to music. All musical instruments create tones having harmonics, so a device whose distortion adds a little more merely changes the instrument's character by some amount. Electric guitar players use harmonic distortion - often lots of it - to turn a guitar's inherent plink-plink sound into a singing tone having great power and sustain.
Intermodulation (IM) distortion requires two or more frequencies to be present, and it's far more damaging because it creates new content that is not musically related to the original. Even in relatively small amounts, intermodulation distortion adds a dissonant quality that is unpleasant to hear. Another type of distortion is called aliasing, and it's unique to digital recording. Like IM distortion, aliasing creates new frequencies not harmonically related to the original, and so is unpleasant and irritating to hear. Fortunately, in all modern digital gear, aliasing is so low in level that it's inaudible.
Time-based errors affect mainly pitch and tempo. If you've ever played an old LP record where the hole was not quite centered, you've heard the pitch rise and fall with each revolution. This is called wow. Analog tape recorders suffer from a different type of pitch instability called flutter. Unlike the slow pitch change of wow, flutter is much more rapid giving a warbling effect. Digital recorders have a unique type of timing deviation called jitter, but with all modern equipment, jitter is so much softer than the music that you'll never hear it. The last type of time-based error is phase shift, but it's benign even in relatively large amounts.
Room acoustics could be considered a fifth audio parameter, but it really isn't. Nearby room boundaries can create frequency response errors (called comb filtering) due to wave reflections combining in the air. Reflections can also create audible echoes and reverb, but these are time-based phenomenon that occur outside the equipment, so they don't warrant their own category either. Likewise, with power amplifiers, maximum output power is important. But that's not related to fidelity - it merely states how loudly the amplifier can play.
The above parameters encompass everything that affects audio fidelity. If a device has noise and distortion too low to hear, a response sufficient to capture the entire range of audible frequencies, and time-based errors small enough to be insignificant, then that device will be audibly transparent to music and other sound passing through it. However, clarity and stereo imaging are greatly affected by room acoustics; without question, the room you listen in has far more effect on sound quality than any of the audio components.
-- http://ethanwiner.com/audiophoolery.html
That's not zealotry, that's physics. If there's one parameter that he forgot to mention here, it is the fallibility of human perception.
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That's not zealotry, that's physics. If there's one parameter that he forgot to mention here, it is the fallibility of human perception.
Let us make a list of the human senses.
- Eyes
- Ears
- Nose (scent & taste)
- Skin
- Temperature (warmth & cold)
- Touch (solid, liquid, soft, hard etcetera)
There are a few others and still our hearing is more limited than that of a cat or dog to begin with. Our brains are our only advantage here...
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Let us make a list of the human senses.
- Eyes
- Ears
- Nose (scent & taste)
- Skin
- Temperature (warmth & cold)
- Touch (solid, liquid, soft, hard etcetera)
There are a few others and still our hearing is more limited than that of a cat or dog to begin with. Our brains are our only advantage here...
True, and I suppose that means Winer also neglected to mention the audio parameters necessary to a synesthete. Now, how does one go about acquiring musical-smelling cables?
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We have to ask the legendary Patrick p:/
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I dare you or anyone to do that AB and come back here with a straight face and honestly say they sound the same.
Few months ago i would have said one needs resolving cans and dac to hear a difference between amps. Then i heard my very first pair of headphones that i donated to a friend (Technics RP-DH1200) again from a Ehha Rev A. They sounded nothing like a load of poo they are from every other amp i have tried. :-00
Sure, we are mostly freaks here, with trained ears and shit, but even my noobish friend heard a difference right a way.
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That's not zealotry, that's physics.
What sort of physics exactly does all of that fall under? Or I suppose you can reduce any sort of observed phenomena to "physics" if you try hard enough.
(https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/purity.png)
Ethan Winer mostly talks out of his ass. Regurgitating certain audio metrics under his brand of "objectivity".
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Ah, but you have no problem misrepresenting Ethan's claims.
That's not zealotry, that's physics. If there's one parameter that he forgot to mention here, it is the fallibility of human perception.
In your opinion, Weiner's 4 noble truths (within the absolute context of 'ONLY' and 'EVERYTHING') are as certain as the sun being the center of our solar system. That's a preposterous equivocation when you can have amps and dacs that measure 'audibly identical' within those parameters sound different. I can run a line of people outside the door that will tell you a Lavry and Benchmark DAC do NOT sound identical under a properly setup blind test all day long. Anyone who can't hear the difference in just treble alone between those two is either inexperienced, deaf, or biased beyond repair. Same for a Ragnarok v. O2. There's about a zillion permutations I could come up with where Weiner's absolutism would simply fall on it's face.
Must be why psycho pseudo objectivists continue to harp on tubes distortion levels that are below those of the basic transducer.
::)
Speaking of the transducer, per Weiner, i should be able to take just about any transducer with the same or similar distortion measurements within the realm of audibility per your standards, EQ them identically, DSP them for the same correction and time based errors and they would sound identical. This is BS, they do NOT! I've been there, done that.
Honestly, remove audio from the equation for a sec. To me, anyone that uses terms like 'only' and 'everything' to make generalized absolutist comments is a psychotic nutjob one hair away from laying bricks for gas chambers. So yeah, zealot seems accurate to me.
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Anyone who can't hear the difference in just treble alone between those two is either inexperienced, deaf, or biased beyond repair.
Yup. We've all just got tin ears. That must be it
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Yup. We've all just got tin ears. That must be it
Before you get all sensitive and start with the red herrings, have you tried comparing the Benchmark mk1 versus a Lavry? Probably not huh.
I use that example specifically because it's anetode's personal DAC and it absolutely doesn't sound anything like a Benchmark DAC, yet they should per yours and Weiners and anetode's belief system.
I'm frankly sick of hearing all amps and DACs that aren't measurably faulty or broken sound the same. It's load of total horseshit. poo
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Yup. We've all just got tin ears. That must be it
Some people have tin ears, yes. Some electrical engineers definitely have tin ears, or are simply so biased that they discount their own perception. I'm sure there are some people that would fail an ABX test of an O2 vs. Rag, or a Yggy vs. Yulong. Those people probably shouldn't spend $1K+ per component, and should absolutely be using Monoprice or Blue Jeans.
The problem is when those people extrapolate "I can't hear a difference" into "there is no difference."
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Before you get all sensitive and start with the red herrings, have you tried comparing the Benchmark mk1 versus a Lavry? Probably not huh.
I'm not really getting all sensitive but I'd like you to try and look at it from my perspective too. ;)
With all the modding I've done, and learning to hear the difference between pad materials, subtle changes in damping, and even different types of felt I'm pretty sure I'm at least a golden ear to yours and OJ's platinum.
I use that example specifically because it's anetode's personal DAC and it absolutely doesn't sound anything like a Benchmark DAC, yet they should per yours and Weiners and anetode's belief system.
No I've never heard either of those but the specifics should really matter since according to you pretty much every DAC sounds different. Which ones shouldn't I hear a difference between? I'm honestly asking. I've never noticed any difference between by ODAC or Focusrite 2i2. If I run them into another amp, my UHA-4's DAC and Clip Zip sound the same as well.
With the exceptions of ones that have kludgey tube stages added on or noisy motherboard integrateds I don't recall ever hear a difference between DACs.
The problem is when those people extrapolate "I can't hear a difference" into "there is no difference."
I'd reverse that. The problem is that people hear a difference and extrapolate into thinking it actually exists in the equipment and not in their brain's interpretation of it.
Even if absolutely everything really did sound the same people would still report differences because that's how the human brain works and we'd still need controlled testing discover that.
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All I can say is that I'm happy with my cheapo equipments, and have no problem recommending them.
Still, I need to check that E09 Monoprice clone. It seems to distort as a pre-amp when pushed hard and is not giving me the voltage swing I expected. Actually the 2i2 works much better as a pre-amp (for the Mackies), but it is not stand alone.
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I'm not really getting all sensitive but I'd like you to try and look at it from my perspective too. ;)
With all the modding I've done, and learning to hear the difference between pad materials, subtle changes in damping, and even different types of felt I'm pretty sure I'm at least a golden ear to yours and OJ's platinum.
No I've never heard either of those but the specifics should really matter since according to you pretty much every DAC sounds different. Which ones shouldn't I hear a difference between? I'm honestly asking. I've never noticed any difference between by ODAC or Focusrite 2i2. If I run them into another amp, my UHA-4's DAC and Clip Zip sound the same as well.
With the exceptions of ones that have kludgey tube stages added on or noisy motherboard integrateds I don't recall ever hear a difference between DACs.
I'd reverse that. The problem is that people hear a difference and extrapolate into thinking it actually exists in the equipment and not in their brain's interpretation of it.
Even if absolutely everything really did sound the same people would still report differences because that's how the human brain works and we'd still need controlled testing discover that.
That's not a reversal. That's a separate unrelated claim.
Anyway, let's cut to the chase. Apparently you think people are hearing differences in $99 gear because they are looking at different LED colors or silver versus black chassis. Yes, I've never heard two of any amp or DAC sound identical to anything else, that's been the whole point. I've heard some sound similar or more closely related than to others, never identical. So let's do this.
Let's establish a set of listening parameters and tracks. You make notes on your method and listening notes and keep it for yourself. Send me the gear you tested (UHA4, Zip, ODAC, etc.) and I'll replicate the method and make my own notes. After we'll both compare and post here. We can even have another person we both know make their own notes. After I return the gear to you, then we can go over the posted notes and we can see who is or isn't hearing what.
Then people can even buy the same cheap gear and test for themselves to see what's what.
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Things are gettin' real in the Changstar parking lot.
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Have I heard differences between DACs? Not as much as with transducers.
Does a Zip/Clip sound dramatically different than my Focusrite (w/o pushing the volume to obvious distortion levels)? Not that much to me and under the conditions that I usually listen to them.
Do I think that two systems will sound the same if I remove all significant sources of distortion and noise, and if equalization can be achieved to perfectly match the two systems (sometimes this is fairly difficult and removing all sources of distortion at any level can be expensive)? Likely. But again, this may not be easy under all listening conditions and hardware configurations. In many cases it may actually be next to impossible. But in many cases one may get faily close. To the point that for some folks (including me) the differences maybe too subtle to matter.
Note two systems may behave failry similar under certain conditions, and not too similar under some others.
Note two properly set systems with similar characteristics may sound different more so cuz one day one was shit-faced vs when sober. Even if the two systems sound micro-different.
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Let's establish a set of listening parameters and tracks. You make notes on your method and listening notes and keep it for yourself. Send me the gear you tested (UHA4, Zip, ODAC, etc.) and I'll replicate the method and make my own notes. After we'll both compare and post here. We can even have another person we both know make their own notes. After I return the gear to you, then we can go over the posted notes and we can see who is or isn't hearing what.
Unfortunately, uncontrolled tests are not evidence for this kind of thing so your proposed protocol won't establish anything.
If we didn't live 2000 miles apart I'd build an Arduino powered automated ABX switch box and meet up with you do do some real tests but since most of you guys are in SoCal that's not likely to ever happen.
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Unfortunately, uncontrolled tests are not evidence for this kind of thing so your proposed protocol won't establish anything.
Sure it won't... ::)
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That's not zealotry, that's physics. If there's one parameter that he forgot to mention here, it is the fallibility of human perception.
While he might be very experienced as a sound engineer, he gives the impression of deriving all his 'knowledge of fidelity' from books/datasheets rather than actual listening. Yea, i read the whole thing.
To me it seems it lets some people sleep better if they can make sense of everything they encounter in life.
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Instead of a conventional listening test, why not try and null these differences out, and listen to the result of that? We eliminate the main audio signal as a potential masking factor by doing so. This could only be attempted if the amplifiers really did measure "identically".
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Sure it won't... ::)
So do we not need controlled testing for pharmaceuticals either then?
Should we give people some magic water (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Homeopathy), take a few notes, and conclude it cured them just because they said so?
The stakes aren't as high, but the same concepts still apply.
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If all dacs / amps sound the same, then Tyll must be wasting his time doing this Big Sound 2015:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-help-im-drowning-electronics#3JBKjkc8l8bYJ0vX.97
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If all dacs / amps sound the same, then Tyll must be wasting his time doing this Big Sound 2015:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-help-im-drowning-electronics#3JBKjkc8l8bYJ0vX.97
I don't think anyone says that they all sound the same. I certainly don't.
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I don't think anyone says that they all sound the same. I certainly don't.
Bigshot thinks so:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689409/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same#post_9963109
here as well:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/560122/all-dacs-sound-the-same
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I don't think anyone says that they all sound the same. I certainly don't.
People absolutely say that. People like the AudioCritic believe that any properly designed amplifier that is not actively clipping will sound indistinguishable from any other amplifier, and the only possibly difference will be if you purposefully introduce a form of distortion via something like 300Bs.
"Amplifiers have been quite excellent for more than a few decades, offering few opportunities for engineering breakthroughs. There are significant differences in topology, measured specifications, physical design, and cosmetics, not to mention price, but the sound of all properly designed units is basically the same. The biggest diversity is in power supplies, ranging from barely adequate to ridiculously overdesigned. That may or may not affect the sound quality, depending on the impedance characteristics and efficiency of the loudspeaker. The point is that, unless the amplifier has serious design errors or is totally mismatched to a particular speaker, the sound you will hear is the sound of the speaker, not the amplifier. As for the future, I think it belongs to highly refined class D amplifiers, such as Bang & Olufsen’s ICEpower modules and Bruno Putzeys’s modular Hypex designs, compact and efficient enough to be incorporated in powered loudspeakers. The free-standing power amplifier will slowly become history, except perhaps as an audiophile affectation. What about vacuum-tube designs? If you like second-harmonic distortion, output transformers, and low damping factors, be my guest. (Can you imagine a four-way powered loudspeaker driven by vacuum-tube modules?)"
I'm sure Jason and Mike would be delighted to learn that they completely wasted their time creating the Rag, when it can sound no better than the Magni 2. Everything that can be done has been done, and only your headphones can make any difference to the sound.
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Not trying to put words in Mav's mouth, but I think Mav means people participating in this thread.
People absolutely say that. People like the AudioCritic believe that any properly designed amplifier that is not actively clipping will sound indistinguishable from any other amplifier, and the only possibly difference will be if you purposefully introduce a form of distortion via something like 300Bs.
"Amplifiers have been quite excellent for more than a few decades, offering few opportunities for engineering breakthroughs. There are significant differences in topology, measured specifications, physical design, and cosmetics, not to mention price, but the sound of all properly designed units is basically the same. The biggest diversity is in power supplies, ranging from barely adequate to ridiculously overdesigned. That may or may not affect the sound quality, depending on the impedance characteristics and efficiency of the loudspeaker. The point is that, unless the amplifier has serious design errors or is totally mismatched to a particular speaker, the sound you will hear is the sound of the speaker, not the amplifier. As for the future, I think it belongs to highly refined class D amplifiers, such as Bang & Olufsen’s ICEpower modules and Bruno Putzeys’s modular Hypex designs, compact and efficient enough to be incorporated in powered loudspeakers. The free-standing power amplifier will slowly become history, except perhaps as an audiophile affectation. What about vacuum-tube designs? If you like second-harmonic distortion, output transformers, and low damping factors, be my guest. (Can you imagine a four-way powered loudspeaker driven by vacuum-tube modules?)"
I'm sure Jason and Mike would be delighted to learn that they completely wasted their time creating the Rag, when it can sound no better than the Magni 2. Everything that can be done has been done, and only your headphones can make any difference to the sound.
If you are set on the speakers you want, then the DAC and the Amp become the determining factors.
If you are set on the DAC and the Amp you want, then the transducers become the determining factors.
Cables proly, if you are set on the DAC, Amp and speakers. But IMO hard to fuck those up real bad.
Now, I think transducers are harder to get consistent and right. So I would start there. Though it be an iterative process where you find a transducer you absolutely must have, but has some special driving requirements which narrow your choices more that you would like, and it's back to the drawing board.
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So do we not need controlled testing for pharmaceuticals either then?
Should we give people some magic water (http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Homeopathy), take a few notes, and conclude it cured them just because they said so?
The stakes aren't as high, but the same concepts still apply.
No, you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater. There isn't only one way to perform a valuable test or experiment. I know it's convenient for some to think so as it makes performing an 'adequate' test (per their standards) in a hobbyist environment which could disprove their beliefs next to impossible. So why perform any other tests or provide any other data points? Heck, even when we do such a test as we did with the Magni versus the O2 years ago, people just CHOOSE to not accept it or believe it. Data has a value even if you choose to disregard it or mitigate it's significance. Perhaps even more so in some cases.
(http://www.monologuedb.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/jack-nicholson-colonel-nathan-r-jessep-A-Few-Good-Men.jpg)
Remember, next time you take cars for a test drive, make sure to do it blindfolded otherwise it'll be 'worthless'. facepalm
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Just curious Mav' : are you using the standard JRC opamps in your O2 ?
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Just curious Mav' : are you using the standard JRC opamps in your O2 ?
Of course! How could you improve on perfection?! Are you some sort of crackpot audiophool?? ;)
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Yeah I think I'm clearly there now ... Damn you mates ! :)p3
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Bigshot thinks so:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/689409/do-all-dacs-sound-the-same#post_9963109
here as well:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/560122/all-dacs-sound-the-same
Even Bigshot isn't going to say that putting a crappy tube buffer into a DAC won't change it's sound when it can add clearly measurable distortion above know thresholds for audibility.
He'd certainly claim that they all should sound the same for philosophical reasons and that anything that doesn't is "broken". I prefer transparent gear for myself, but I wouldn't go so far as to say anything else is broken.
People absolutely say that. People like the AudioCritic believe that any properly designed amplifier that is not actively clipping will sound indistinguishable from any other amplifier, and the only possibly difference will be if you purposefully introduce a form of distortion via something like 300Bs.
"The principal determinants of sound quality in your listening room, given the limitations of a particular recording, are the loudspeakers—not the electronics, not the cables, not anything else. This is so fundamental that I still can’t understand why it hasn’t filtered down to the lowest levels of the audio community. The melancholy truth is that a new amplifier will not change your audio life. It may, or may not, effect a very small improvement (usually not unless your old amplifier was badly designed), but the basic sound of your system will remain the same. Only a better loudspeaker can change that. My best guess as to why the loudspeaker-comes-first principle has not prevailed in the audiophile world is that a new pair of loudspeakers tends to present a problem in interior decoration. Swapping amplifiers is so much simpler, not to mention spouse-friendlier, and the initial level of anticipation is just as high, before the eventual letdown (or denial thereof)."
Emphasis added.
You left out some important qualifiers. I would mostly agree with that statement but it leaves out the fact that many things do sound different because you can always screw something up or make something less than transparent intentionally. Some people like that just because it's different. Sometimes those flaws counteract flaws in other equipment you're using it with.
I used to like my Crack better than the solid state amp I had at the time but eventually I got board of it's added coloration and went back to solid state. I wasn't wrong then and I not wrong now because they're just preferences. Some people do call out others on that and I think it's wrong. Preferring a colored amp isn't any different that preferring a colored headphone and calling other out on that is even rarer and even more screwed up.
Heck, even when we do such a test as we did with the Magni versus the O2 years ago, people just CHOOSE to not accept it or believe it. Data has a value even if you choose to disregard it or mitigate it's significance. Perhaps even more so in some cases.
Got a link?
Remember, next time you take cars for a test drive, make sure to do it blindfolded otherwise it'll be 'worthless'. facepalm
That's a completely different thing Anax. Unless you're only ever going to race it buying a car is almost always more about things like style, ergonomics, and comfort rather than just raw performance. That would be like advocating buying a car base solely on the Sig's laptime or something. You've actually got to live it, no matter it's performance, and I'll certainly admit that the O2 falls on it's face in regards to ergonomics.
Just curious Mav' : are you using the standard JRC opamps in your O2 ?
Yup. Never bothered rolling because it sounds fine the way it is and I never heard a difference when I rolled opamps in previous amps I owned.
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Thanks for the precision Mav'
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If you are set on the speakers you want, then the DAC and the Amp become the determining factors.
If you are set on the DAC and the Amp you want, then the transducers become the determining factors.
Cables proly, if you are set on the DAC, Amp and speakers. But IMO hard to fuck those up real bad.
Now, I think transducers are harder to get consistent and right. So I would start there. Though it be an iterative process where you find a transducer you absolutely must have, but has some special driving requirements which narrow your choices more that you would like, and it's back to the drawing board.
I think that's a reasonable assessment. If you can't hear a difference between a Martin Logan and a Magnepan, this might not be the hobby for you. I'd probably say the same thing if you can't hear a difference between a $500 amp and a $5K amp, both "properly designed," and not clipping, both with S/NR, THD, and IMD all below audible threshold. The differences won't be as large as the differences between speakers, but there WILL be differences. One pair of speakers vs. another is like comparing red vs. blue, not that hard. One amp vs. another is like comparing light red vs. dark red.
Cables are tricky, because IME, a lot of cables DO sound very similar, and some pricey cables don't sound any better than Monoprice stuff. Speakers and components I think can be compared using traditional sighted methods with notes, and you can then bring out the blindfolds if you're unsure of your initial findings.
Cables OTOH I think pretty much require blind testing in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. Cables also require at least a fair amount of critical listening skill, patience, and familiarity with recordings. I can pretty much guarantee you that any large scale ABX test using unfamiliar equipment with unfamiliar recordings using quick swaps will result in 50/50. The differences are just too granular to show up in that sort of environment.
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Here's the link:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,711.0.html
So there's a value to performing other tests rather than just sitting down and looking at dyno numbers and gear ratios. Good, thanks for the backup. Since we have entered the world of failed analogies now, what would be the audio engineering equivalent to a hot lap at Laguna Seca? You know, where an audio device is tested by an engineer in how it performs it's actual function, to render actual recorded music accurately.
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Bigshot thinks the Hifiman RE262 and RE272 sound the same based on measurements. Nevermind he hasn't heard either of them, ever. Tells me all I need to know about his objective opinion.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/623043/cafe-sceptico-the-objectivist-cafe/330#post_9004942
2 well measuring amps: Cypherlabs Picollo (all discrete design) and ALO RX (new opamp model for iems)
At the time I owned both, I could play a particular song with some kind of recorded artifact around 30 seconds in. I could hear it on both but the RX pushed it very forward in the mix- at any volume- compared to the Picollo. So much so, I at first thought the RX was experiencing RF interference. Obviously it wasn't. The point is that no amp measurement, that I know of, can explain the way these 2 amps presented this recorded artifact. It would have been easy to distinguish these 2 amps in a blind test if I was given this particular song to use. Anecdotal perhaps but for me a glaring data point that all well measuring amps don't 'sound' the same. I won't even talk about one sounding leaner or brighter than the other, just that one made a specific moment in a song more easily detectable than the other.
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here as well:
http://www.head-fi.org/t/560122/all-dacs-sound-the-same
LOL, I compared shit with shit from a shit computer and determined they both sound like shit. Therefore all DACs are shit.
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LOL, I compared shit with shit from a shit computer and determined they both sound like shit. Therefore all DACs are shit.
Huzzah! Wait, but the Soundblaster said "Xtreme" on it though. I mean how can it NOT be the best??/?
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http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,711.0.html
TY, I'll reed it and get back to you.
So there's a value to performing other tests rather than just sitting down and looking at dyno numbers and gear ratios. Good, thanks for the backup. Since we have entered the world of failed analogies now, what would be the audio engineering equivalent to a hot lap at Laguna Seca?
Well, all analogies breakdown somewhere because they're not the same thing, but driving blindfolded was your idea...
You know, where an audio device is tested by an engineer in how it performs it's actual function, to render actual recorded music accurately.
Amps and DACs don't care what what the grey matter between some primate's ears interpret a signal as. It just moves electric charges back and forth.
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Huzzah! Wait, but the Soundblaster said "Xtreme" on it though. I mean how can it NOT be the best??/?
It did not say "The Best" because you did not Gillette it. You do not want to Axe yourself...
P.S. Marketing does this to you. The Kotler theory and many marketing cases later I can turn a carrot into a "super food."
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I got food poisoning from a Korean tofu place - third time in five years.
This thread has ended up giving me an even bigger headache.
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Here's the link:
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,711.0.html
That looks like fairly good protocol. Hydrogen audio would probably crucify you for it since it isn't perfect but since not many people who claim to hear this kind of stuff ever actually bother to try a decent test you and Marv deserve some credit.
OTOH, 3 correct and 2 "can't tell" isn't exactly iron clad evidence.
On the third hand, I do understand that this kind of thing is a pain in the ass and that's why you only did 5 trials and why it's so rarely done at all.
If I thought I get enough takers at meets, I'd have the motivation to build a completely automatic ABX switch box, with relays, a screen, and the whole 9 yards but frankly I expect some pretty odd looks and few takers.
Anyway, I didn't mean to turn this thread into a schiit storm. I usually don't bring up my disagreements about DACs and amps with you guys here because I find the discussion of headphones interesting. I just wanted to mention the other side and not have a knock down drag out debate with the rest of the pyrates.
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If I thought I get enough takers at meets, I'd have the motivation to build a completely automatic ABX switch box, with relays, a screen, and the whole 9 yards but frankly I expect some pretty odd looks and few takers.
I dunno, I suspect a lot of people are curious about shit like this. Take the NPR audio quality thing: not everyone agreed with the method or the validity of the results but a lot of people (here and elsewhere) participated. Maybe it needs to happen so we can start fighting about the testing protocols, and why that is bullshit instead of whatever else just happened. Also, since you apparently have at least three hands, construction and coding should be pretty simple.
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LOL! if it's a regular meet, I can see people complaining about meet impressions, noisy settings, peer presure, availability of booze, booth babe distractions, full moon, Jupter and Saturn alignment.
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I dunno, I suspect a lot of people are curious about shit like this. Take the NPR audio quality thing: not everyone agreed with the method or the validity of the results but a lot of people (here and elsewhere) participated. Maybe it needs to happen so we can start fighting about the testing protocols, and why that is bullshit instead of whatever else just happened. Also, since you apparently have at least three hands, construction and coding should be pretty simple.
When you put it that way it does sound encouraging.
Maybe I should start planning it out and draw up a BOM...
LOL! if it's a regular meet, I can see people complaining about meet impressions, noisy settings, peer presure, availability of booze, booth babe distractions, full moon, Jupter and Saturn alignment.
On the gripping hand... (http://www.catb.org/jargon/html/O/on-the-gripping-hand.html)
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Reading this site, it's easy to get the impression that every single Pirate up here discerns notable differences between DACs. I find it interesting to hear that there are people here who are perhaps less impressed with that idea. It seems like NwAvGuy and maybe xNor poisoned that well with their rabid arguments. Also, I can understand that these discussions are probably not so interesting to the well seasoned veterans. But for me it's a perspective that I still like to see bandied about occasionally, as long as it doesn't get religious.
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Reading this site, it's easy to get the impression that every single Pirate up here discerns notable differences between DACs. I find it interesting to hear that there are people here who are perhaps less impressed with that idea. It seems like NwAvGuy and maybe xNor poisoned that well with their rabid arguments. Also, I can understand that these discussions are probably not so interesting to the well seasoned veterans. But for me it's a perspective that I still like to see bandied about occasionally, as long as it doesn't get religious.
Not a veteran here, but I think there are just too many things more important than a DAC in a system. DAC IMHO is only more important than the cosmetics of gears. Cables sound different but not necessarily better/worse so I'm leaving cable out of the argument.
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I've said this a million times but it's worth repeating. I've never felt the need to judge headphones or speakers blindfolded. And my impressions are pretty much always in line with the "objective" measurable reference whether it be FR, CSD, THD, etc. I figure I should be able to judge electronics the same way (unblinded) and although the measurable difference might be small/negligible/opposite, I like to at least think I'm hearing things as they truly sound.
Every pirate has heard expensive, over-hyped stuff that just sounds like utter garbage, so the whole placebo argument doesn't work around these parts. For Head-Fi or certain other forums you might be able to point to that.
Mav, I also think the "it sound fine to me" argument doesn't hold much water. I used to think my $20 pair of Senn earbuds sounded "fine". That is, until I dived deeper down the hole. These days I can't listen to those things without :vomit:
Mav, also consider the possibility that whatever Stax or AKG you're rolling with just isn't transparent enough to resolve differences. Food for thought.
Other than that, I agree with Marv. These threads give me headaches.
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I once used to hang out on Head-Case. There I learnt more than enough about Nwavguy. The thread is from 2011. There is one thing with people who are too into their -ism: too many words.
http://www.head-case.org/forums/topic/9312-nwavguy-vs-nuforce/
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It seems like NwAvGuy and maybe xNor poisoned that well with their rabid arguments.
I don't really like raining on anybody's parade so I don't go instigating stuff in any of the amp or DAC threads here, or anywhere. It wouldn't really do anyone any good anyway. I brought it up here because the general subject was already under discussion.. What really gets people like me and NwAvGuy all riled up is seeing noobs being advised to spend money on stuff that isn't going to further their enjoyment of music.
When I used to frequent all the "help me pick" threads on Head-Fi they were packed full of people telling noobs to spend hundreds of dollars on things that wouldn't help them at all.
Don't like that K701 out of a receiver? You need a dedicated headamp. Don't like it out of the headamp? You need a better DAC. Still don't like it it? Better get it recabled. That didn't help either? Your taste in music just sucks. It never ends. Maybe the amp or the DAC helps a bit but the poor noob would have been better off retuning it right away and getting an HD600 or DT880 instead of being stung along and told not to "give up on it" until he's heard "what it's really capable of"
Maybe you don't just like the headphone. A different amp rarely fixes the problem. Maybe Head-Fi's hype train has just given you unrealistic exceptions about what a headphone can sound like and sent you down the yellow brick road of upgrades looking for something that doesn't exist.
That makes me angry and that's why I still bother to discuss thing kind of thing online.
Also, I can understand that these discussions are probably not so interesting to the well seasoned veterans. But for me it's a perspective that I still like to see bandied about occasionally, as long as it doesn't get religious.
Anax and I have been arguing this off and on going all the way back to HF and for 4 or 5 years now, so it's fairly friendly even though we disagree.
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build an Arduino powered automated ABX switch box
Actually, how much would it cost to build such a thing? I sometimes wish I could buy a little ABX box.
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Actually, how much would it cost to build such a thing? I sometimes wish I could buy a little ABX box.
Not really sure. That's why I need to plan and price it out. If I ever actually do it, and it come out cheaper than a commercial solution, then I'll make plans public.
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Why don't you do what I did with the Radio Shack selector? I simply used it in reverse.
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Well, all analogies breakdown somewhere because they're not the same thing, but driving blindfolded was your idea...
Amps and DACs don't care what what the grey matter between some primate's ears interpret a signal as. It just moves electric charges back and forth.
ICE cars just pump hot air that turns axles. Still want to buy a performance car based on a dyno sheet and gear ratios? Didn't think so. Of course if one 'believes' Ethan Weiner, audio reproduction is very simple. Real engineers with comprehensive life experience usually know that nothing is that simple.
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What really gets people like me and NwAvGuy all riled up is seeing noobs being advised to spend money on stuff that isn't going to further their enjoyment of music.
No, what gets that dude all riled up is anyone who believes any gear in existence could sound better than his ODAC+O2. His goal was largely self aggrandizement and forming a cult more so than helping the little guy. If that was his goal, he would have been far less douchey about his certitude than to crap is numerous threads on various sites. Personally, I still think he's a sock puppet for some other well known audio personality that has probably spouted this same stuff in the past.
Funny, I actually didn't bring car analogies up, NWAVdouche did with his beater Miata and 17" dubs if you recall. Then it was watches and I forget whatever else.
Also, that blind test I linked was the first time I had ever heard either amp. Give me a week with both to learn their signatures and differences and it would be easy peesy. I also came over not knowing I was going to perform a test. Thought I was going to drink booz, eat food and play with capacitors. Yes, those factors matter. Now replace the Magni with the Ragnarok and it's a joke of a test. You could do that one while asleep underwater.
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Btw, I think Mav is great. I'm RL friends with anetode and value him dearly. I also like Solderdude quite a bit, perhaps more than he and others might suspect. I just get tired of hearing the same thing over and over again for more than a decade and repeating myself the same. I was fine with the wacky vids about cables and rocks, but Ethan Weiner just sets me the fuck off with his god complex. It's the pseudo objective pretense of omniscience coupled with the condescension that if you hear a difference your mind is playing tricks on you and your too stupid to know that gets to me. Really?
So when we bitch about these mega buck speakers in mega buck piano lacquer cabinets worked by grand master Amish craftsmen and their little elven hands and say they sound like shit, what bias is not at play there that is with DACs and amps? Are you kidding??
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About Amp and dacs. I was definitely in the camp that think differences between Dacs or amps is BS. But my ears told me that's not true.
That's said and sorry If I offense someone but IME, even if i can hear some differences, i'm not convinced I would detect in an ABX test. at Best, those differences are "subtle"... notice the double quotes please, they matter.
"Subtle" for me can be "none" for someone and "drastic" for someone else. Depends on experience , skills , expectancy I presum. Depends on how we use the words as well . On most public forums , nobody takes care to explain where he comes from... impressions without a full context are useless.
What makes me confident in the fact those differences are real and not only a product of my imagination/bias/psychology is when I realize that me and some friends here or there ( RL, CS, Head-fi , Tellementnomade.org ) can identify exactly the same points/flaws in a Dac or an amp even if we didn't share any impressions before the try and even if we have different tastes.
I did that experience with the HE-9 recently.. the friend listened to it for the first time and identified immediately the quality of soundstage, especially depth and layering. HE-9 is very rare and very few people heard it. I did , Negura did and then My friend. Never heard or read any other impressions so we can't be influenced by some Hype. I heard the HE-9 and was wowed by the soundstage.. then I did a search and found what Negura wrote on HF on this Soundstage.. and then my friend heard it... we all heard the same precise thing at different times, with different headphones and different music. Dunno where and how it's measurable but the HE-9 soundstage abilities are real for us.
So between objectvists and subjectivists , it seems I live in a kind of grey area... I'm mostly confident in what science tells us but I'm also confident in my own ears and I'm maybe even more confident in some friends ears.
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I realize that me and some friends here or there ( RL, CS, Head-fi , Tellementnomade.org )
Hi Sorrodje,
what is RL? something I have missed?
Thx
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Real life. :)p13
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Why don't you do what I did with the Radio Shack selector? I simply used it in reverse.
Mostly so it's completely automated and can be used by yourself, like a physical version of the ABX plugin in foobar. Having the computer decide with an RNG is also better blinding.
No, what gets that dude all riled up is anyone who believes any gear in existence could sound better than his ODAC+O2. His goal was largely self aggrandizement and forming a cult more so than helping the little guy.
Following his blog from almost the beginning, and talking to him in the comments and via email I have a hard time buying that.
If Schiit existed a few years earlier and NwAvguy reviewed the Modi and Magni instead of the E7 and E9 then I doubt he would have bothered designing the O2+ODAC.
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If Schiit existed a few years earlier and NwAvguy reviewed the Modi and Magni instead of the E7 and E9 then I doubt he would have bothered designing the O2+ODAC.
Sorry, having been on the receiving end of his overgeneralized assumptions, snipes, and put-downs, I have to disagree with this. He is pretty much singlehandedly responsible for the still-lingering impression that we are a bunch of test-equipment-challenged, audio-god-praying, crystal-cable-worshipping mouthbreathers.
From the start (long before the Asgard Incident, where from the first post he wasted no time in trying to cast us as doddering incompetents) he made broadly negative public statements about our products based on nothing more than photographs and descriptive copy. Also, he took pretty much every chance he could to mention us in a negative light on his blog (in his list of snake-oil companies he included in virtually every screed.) He even went so far as to cast aspersions on our choice of USB interface, based on limited experience with a C-Media chip that was so far down the product line it had nothing to do with what we used.
Nope, sorry, he went out of his way to hate on us. Although I have acknowledged his positive effect on the industry in the Schiit Happened book, I have no doubt that he would have eviscerated the Magni and Modi--even if only because they came from a company that also had the audacity to make more expensive gear.
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I think The Audiogd HE-9/Master9 uniquely good soundstage can be attributed to its extraordinary -130db stereo seperation.
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What makes me confident in the fact those differences are real and not only a product of my imagination/bias/psychology is when I realize that me and some friends here or there ( RL, CS, Head-fi , Tellementnomade.org ) can identify exactly the same points/flaws in a Dac or an amp even if we didn't share any impressions before the try and even if we have different tastes.
Exactly! There is no answer for this by the hard core fanatics except some psychic phenomenon. Consistent independent verification to specific details. But of course, the prolific amount of data available to support that is 'useless' to them.
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Mostly so it's completely automated and can be used by yourself, like a physical version of the ABX plugin in foobar. Having the computer decide with an RNG is also better blinding.
Following his blog from almost the beginning, and talking to him in the comments and via email I have a hard time buying that.
If Schiit existed a few years earlier and NwAvguy reviewed the Modi and Magni instead of the E7 and E9 then I doubt he would have bothered designing the O2+ODAC.
To reiterate on what schiit has said: That's a load of bullshit.
Please don't try to set up Nwavguy as some sort of audio Jesus who wanted to save the headphone community with his wonderful designs. Or act like he was the first person on Earth who figured out how to make a headphone amplifier with low distortion.
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If you recall the blog comment system of nwavguy, it is based off moderator/site admin approval before the comments will show up. It's a kind of selective censorship by nwavguy. (Which is worse than headfi)
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If Schiit existed a few years earlier and NwAvguy reviewed the Modi and Magni instead of the E7 and E9 then I doubt he would have bothered designing the O2+ODAC.
nwavguy has Snowden Syndrome. He would have found other ways to self aggrandize himself.
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Or act like he was the first person on Earth who figured out how to make a headphone amplifier with low distortion.
HE ISN'T? MY LIFE IS A LIE.
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nwavguy has Snowden Syndrome. He would have found other ways to self aggrandize himself.
Nwavguy is worse than Snowden if you ask me. A serious intelligence scandal was only a matter of time. Snowden was not playing some sort of "messiah."
Nwavguy was worse as he fully indulged in his "messiah complex." If you want to call me out on my choice of words do know I come from a religious family with Bible and church (idiots). I have been a bystander in the proceedings but the behaviour displayed by Nwavguy was cult-ish to say the least and the attitude and impression given of "I have all the answers, I know the truth" was appalling.
Even if he made the best audio solution on the planet, fuck him...
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Nwavguy is worse than Snowden if you ask me. A serious intelligence scandal was only a matter of time. Snowden was not playing some sort of "messiah."
Nwavguy was worse as he fully indulged in his "messiah complex." If you want to call me out on my choice of words do know I come from a religious family with Bible and church (idiots). I have been a bystander in the proceedings but the behaviour displayed by Nwavguy was cult-ish to say the least and the attitude and impression given of "I have all the answers, I know the truth" was appalling.
It's odd that many of the "pure objectivists" feel it their duty to insert themselves into subjective discussions and as The One and True Authority, actively belittling and disparaging any opinion that doesn't agree with "measurements--the ones I deem important, anyway--are everything." See my comments here on this site on Doug Self, and the *extremely* loaded language he uses to discount and slander any approach that isn't his his own, and does not hew to the credo that "low THD is your god."
Edit: actually found the comments on Self:
---
Let me highlight the inflammatory and judgmental aspects of this quote:
"With horrible inevitability, the very popularity and excellent technical performance of the 5532 has led to it being criticized by subjectivists who have contrived to convince themselves that they can tell op-amps apart by listening to music played through them. This always makes me laugh, because there is probably no music on the planet that has not passed through a hundred or more 5532s on its way to the consumer."
Does the above do anything that this impartial rewrite does not--besides incite anger?
Although the 5532 delivers excellent measured performance, and has been used widely in mastering consoles, some listeners believe that it is not a truly transparent device, and is bettered by other op-amps."
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It's odd that many of the "pure objectivists" feel it their duty to insert themselves into subjective discussions and as The One and True Authority, actively belittling and disparaging any opinion that doesn't agree with "measurements--the ones I deem important, anyway--are everything." See my comments here on this site on Doug Self, and the *extremely* loaded language he uses to discount and slander any approach that isn't his his own, and does not hew to the credo that "low THD is your god."
Yes! I can't count the number of discussions about sources or DACs where somebody just HAS to barge in and go, "don't you guys know!? It's DIGITAL! Bits are bits! It's either a one or a zero, it will either work or not work!"
As if we're all just going to go "OHHH I HAD NO IDEA! THANK YOU SO MUCH. Your incredibly limited, infantile understanding of digital audio is a revelation to us all!"
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On that note, a link to Jason's indirect response to the NWhatevers and Ethan Weiners.
http://www.head-fi.org/t/701900/schiit-happened-the-story-of-the-worlds-most-improbable-start-up/6990#post_11763661
Yeah, an engineer with real world experience versus talking out your ass.
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Audiophoolery goes both ways. Too tight (nwavguy and his master Doug Self) and too loose (magic stones).
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Audiophoolery goes both ways. Too tight (nwavguy and his master Doug Self) and too loose (magic stones).
Absolutely agreed on this.
One of the most interesting comments I've gotten is that "we need to decouple ourselves from the Big Crazy." The problem is, I haven't been able to figure out how to do it, without architecting a whole new testing principle (fuck ABX, fuck throwing out the people who can tell the difference because they're off the big part of the bell curve, just A/B blind with complete control over music and switching time and tell me if you like one better, if it's statistically significant to one side or another, then hey, there is *something* going on) and taking it on the road to get real numbers.
Then if it works on amps, try it on DACs. Then if it works on DACs, try it on cables. And if that works, try it on magic stones. And to be clear here, "works" means there is a small but reproducible subset of people who will reliably pick one over the other.
And yeah, this isn't "hard" science and it won't be published in the AES journal, but that's not what I'd be shooting for. Maybe this is something we need to do in the future. But the resources and time aren't here right now.
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(fuck ABX, fuck throwing out the people who can tell the difference because they're off the big part of the bell curve, just A/B blind with complete control over music and switching time and tell me if you like one better, if it's statistically significant to one side or another, then hey, there is *something* going on) and taking it on the road to get real numbers.
Absolutely! Definitely! +1 ! I cant' agree more! WOW are you the Messiah ? Fuck yeah that's the Messiah !!! Where's the like Button ?
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I am obliged by my common sense to add silliness.
(http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_law3voShTi1qd2jrlo1_1280.jpg)
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IMO NwAvGuy possitive contribution was to bring to light some important audio design fundamentals. He appears to have done so under the pretense to "fix" the audio industry.
However, he did not go against the magic stones, the crazy cables, and things like that. He went after companies and topologies that IMO are valid under certain design restrictions or goals. Furtheremore, he did so in a witch-hunt and show-like expose fashion, which seemed to have more of a destructive goal than a corrective one.
It is a shame because I do value some of the things that he brought to the table.
I also do not give much credit to the terms "objectivist" or "subjectivist". Electrical Engineering does not have "objectivist" or "subjectivst" camps. There are requirements and design goals. And there is usually many solutions to a problem, all of which will more than likely have trade offs.
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Absolutely! Definitely! +1 ! I cant' agree more! WOW are you the Messiah ? Fuck yeah that's the Messiah !!! Where's the like Button ?
Of course I'm not the messiah, of any stripe.
I simply tire of the endless black and white arguments—hardcore objectivists saying there is *no possible way* there can be anything beyond the measurements, and everything that isn't broken or badly designed sounds the same, vs the hardcore subjectivists saying that *everything must matter,* including cable elevators, magic clocks, rocks in bags, etc, ad nauseum.
From personal experience (both on the "engineering requirements" side--thanks, Ultrabike--and on the subjective experience side), I believe there are small differences in electronics which are perceptible to, and matter to, a small portion of listeners. I also believe there is no value judgement implied if you can't hear these differences, or (much more likely) do not care.
I also believe that this can be debated endlessly, and I'll leave it at this: I came into this business almost 30 years ago thinking exactly the same thing as NwAvGuy--that the only thing that mattered were the numbers, that all non-broken equipment sounded the same, etc...but that didn't last long in the real world. Perhaps this is only delusion, but if it is, I am OK with that.
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Electrical Engineering does not have "objectivist" or "subjectivst" camps.
Correct, but an EE could choose to belong to one or the other 'camp'. This is why I refer to both as belief systems. As empirical as some certain extreme objective would like to appear, they are still choosing to follow their own belief set just like a magic rock person would. The difference lies in what they value the most personally.
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This all being said, we very much do appreciate measurements and data here. The more the merrier. I just think many of the mods and founders here know or perceive what we have yet to truly understand or correlate to a satisfactory point to evangelize with any certainty one way or the other.
I caution those that claim to hold empiricism above all to not ironically and repetitively cite rudimentary psychology as the only variable to explain away what they don't understand or agree with. I hope you understand even if you don't agree. :))
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Correct, but an EE could choose to belong to one or the other 'camp'. This is why I refer to both as belief systems. As empirical as some certain extreme objective would like to appear, they are still choosing to follow their own belief set just like a magic rock person would. The difference lies in what they value the most personally.
EEs or not, we are human beings. And as such we have our own subjective opinions about things.
I also fully agree that specifications and similar cannot substitute experience and field tests.
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Of course I'm not the messiah, of any stripe.
I'm disappointed. So you can't help us to get rid of Anaxilus ? :-00
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I suppose I consider Changstar like myself, technically agnostic.
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LOL! Shit always goes wrong even when all the numbers seem to be in ones favor.
In that sense, more than technically agnostic, I feel like Jon Snow.
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I'm disappointed. So you can't help us to get rid of Anaxilus ? :-00
When you look at Anaxilus' avatar you are already informed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmu5sRIizdw
The Holy Handgrenade of Antioch has already been used. Anaxilus is most likely to be a killer rabbit.
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What do you guys think of this article? Is he right or is he nwavguy-ish?
https://audiotruth.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/silver-gold-2/
https://audiotruth.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/the-toxic-cables-plot-thickens/
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The Great Audiophile Debate - John Atkinson vs Arny Krueger
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyaWMpnhusA
Arny Krueger.... poo
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O2 amp is even better than Auralic Taurus MK2 interms of noise spectrum and crosstalk?!
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-getting-some-numbers#CQqUEt647hJmVYmM.97
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What do you guys think of this article? Is he right or is he nwavguy-ish?
https://audiotruth.wordpress.com/2015/03/19/silver-gold-2/
https://audiotruth.wordpress.com/2015/04/07/the-toxic-cables-plot-thickens/
When trying to determine the effectiveness or sound of a cable based purely on that material's percentage on the IACS conductivity scale, you have a problem. That's just not how things work. I'm not going to defend the Toxic Cable guy's claim that an alloy of 99% silver and 1% gold reduces the conductivity of silver by 1% or whatever, clearly that's not grounded in any science.
There may be reasons for adding a small amount of gold to silver wire though, beyond just pure conductivity. Clearly, if conductivity is all you are worried about, then you should never use machined brass or bronze audio connectors (which is what almost all connectors are made out of) because those metals are awful at conducting electricity.
I don't subscribe to the theory that assuming you use appropriate gauges to equal out conductivity, large gauge aluminum wire will sound the same as small gauge copper wire.
The problem that cable makers run into is when they attempt to justify the use of silver by claiming its higher on the conductivity scale in the first place. Silver's additional conductivity over highly refined copper with minimal impurities is small enough to be negligible. And unless you have the ability to cold weld your connectors, you're going to be introducing other metals via solder, even with pure silver connectors, which are relatively rare. Most silver connectors also tend to be plated with a low conductivity material like platinum or rhodium because pure silver oxidizes and tarnishes so easily, even though unlike copper oxide, conductivity of silver oxide remains high.
Just say you use silver in your wire because you think it sounds better, not because it's 106% vs. 104% or whatever, especially when your using Cardas connectors made out of 28% conductivity brass.
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This is too complicated. I'll just get Homedepot copper lamp cord and call it a day.
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O2 amp is even better than Auralic Taurus MK2 interms of noise spectrum and crosstalk?!
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-getting-some-numbers#CQqUEt647hJmVYmM.97
Funny, we don't recommend either here. BW sounds better than both.
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I can tell you some of the 'higher end' cables I've heard definitely try to provide a more laid back sound and warming things up. Whether alloy choice or adding caps and/or resistors and what not. I personally think it tends to kill the music but others seem to use it as a tone control to mitigate digititus upstream or in the transducer. None of that is measurable in FR wrt alloys btw. Same as why two flat measuring amps could sound bright and analytical or warm and relaxed. Look and measure elsewhere.
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This is too complicated. I'll just get Homedepot copper lamp cord and call it a day.
You really should try something like Mogami 2921. It's really good stuff for "bulk" wire, FAR better than any zipcord for not much money. You can get it for something like $3 a foot. Here's a very simple guide on how to make professional looking speaker cable out of it.
http://www.takefiveaudio.com/mall/shopcontent.asp?type=Mogami_2921_biwire
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I can tell you some of the 'higher end' cables I've heard definitely try to provide a more laid back sound and warming things up. Whether alloy choice or adding caps and/or resistors and what not. I personally think it tends to kill the music but others seem to use it as a tone control to mitigate digititus upstream or in the transducer. None of that is measurable in FR wrt alloys btw. Same as why two flat measuring amps could sound bright and analytical or warm and relaxed. Look and measure elsewhere.
Some cables like Cardas Golden tend to have a very warm signature sound. Others like Nordost or XLO are the opposite, thin and somewhat clinical. I can't point to any measurements on why that would be so. You just have to try them and see.
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And unless you have the ability to cold weld your connectors, you're going to be introducing other metals via solder, even with pure silver connectors, which are relatively rare.
I know Blue Jeans Cable has an ultrasonic welder... do any of the other "boutique" cable makers have similar capabilities?
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I know Blue Jeans Cable has an ultrasonic welder... do any of the other "boutique" cable makers have similar capabilities?
Audioquest uses pressure welds. I'm not sure who else does those sorts of terminations.
https://youtu.be/NJgGP-yqJm0
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I like my cables to be flexible and for headphones, low in microphonics. Connectors must be abuse rated and precision cut so that I don't take the port with the cable when I attempt to disconnect it. If possible I do not want an elephant dong that is hard to manage. Also, I don't like the colors of the rainbow in my cable. The color should be black.
SQ wise, I want a wire with no gain.
If these requirements can be meet with a < $5 investment, life is good.
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Having gained technical background and training i try to make better sense of the world but finding myself consistently failing in making sense of technical side of audio depths.
Some things make sense while others just don't, so far, for me.
The engineers who have cracked something great (guys at Schiit, EC etc) apparently have deeper knowledge in the field (not just book knowldege) or have been extremely lucky in trial and error.
Some book worm objektivist/super atheist types have apparently hard time accepting things beyond common knowledge.
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Audioquest uses pressure welds.
Isn't that called crimping?
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LOL! when I replaced the power supply of my ReadyNAS Pro I crimped the power supply cables. Much easier and cleaner than soldering the joints.
Did it improve the quality of the joint and make the power cleaner? Who cares, I just needed a practical solution, I had to crimp ~24 to 24 freeking cables pronto.
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The wires on the switches and outlets of your house are also pressured welded.
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Isn't that called crimping?
Same basic concept, different level of force. The press applies something like 2 tons of pressure, a bit more than you're going to get from your average hand crimper. Their speaker cables on the other hand just use typical set screws, which anyone can do at home.
Not an AQ fan btw. I started out with them after moving on from zipcord, and I couldn't beat their cables with any of the DIY stuff I tried by twisting together hookup wire. So they are better than Monoprice, but the battery as far as I can tell is silly nonsense. I couldn't hear any difference at all with or without. A multitude of other companies also provide better performance and/or much better value.
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Same basic concept, different level of force. The press applies something like 2 tons of pressure, a bit more than you're going to get from your average hand crimper.
Why do they look like they are using a fancy crimp press? Also doesn't cold welding require both materials to be the same and completely clean free of oxidation, coatings, gunk, crap, silver linings, sweat from mexican workers, etc.?
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Why do they look like they are using a fancy crimp press? Also doesn't cold welding require both materials to be the same and completely clean free of oxidation, coatings, gunk, crap, silver linings, sweat from mexican workers, etc.?
No idea. I don't think anybody is making cables in a cleanroom. It is common however to use some type of coating or fluid at the termination point to reduce possible corrosion from joining two different metals with different voltage potentials.
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Cold welding needs a lot of pressure... not sure if that little hand press will actually do it. It's a small enough area, but I have doubts. Other factors that raise a flag: you want clean, flat & parallel, non-oxidized surfaces. I don't see any of that here.
A use of fluid/flux/unicorn tears might remove some oxidation or corrosion, but you still have to remove that gunk prior to welding.
Now a specially chosen filler material that lowers the melting point of the two contacting metals, that could potentially reduce the amount of pressure needed to bond the surfaces... but that's kinda like brazing. Usually this process also requires some heat to achieve diffusion bonding. A paste flux still has all the non-metal gunk in it which would interfere. A carefully controlled multistep pressure application that starts from the centre and expands outwards to push out the flux is a maybe, but again I don't see that happening with the one-step hand press.
If the metals being joined have a large difference in galvanic potential, magical fluid won't do much. Just about anything aluminum will ruin your day.
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Carbon-to-Diamond-like preasures, vaccum clean room, unicorn tears, magic flux, and so forth, all for dramatic improvements in cable transansparency, at the connector. Awesome.
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And technically you'd be better off with bare wire into the speaker terminal anyways, since any connector at minimum adds two interfaces :-\
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Carbon-to-Diamond-like preasures
I weld all my cables with enough pressure to cause neutron degeneracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_matter#Neutron_degeneracy).
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I weld all my cables with enough pressure to cause neutron degeneracy (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degenerate_matter#Neutron_degeneracy).
fucking degenerates, they will tell you anything to sell cables...
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I use Quantum quark crusher cables. They come 2 for the price of 1.
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And technically you'd be better off with bare wire into the speaker terminal anyways, since any connector at minimum adds two interfaces :-\
Not really. First of all a lot of high-end binding posts don't even accept bare wire, and you'll run into problems with multiple conductors per terminal. IMO the best option is a heavy, pure copper spade. Most banana plugs are hollow and can be difficult to machine if not made from a large percentage of brass, but spades are much more simple and can be made using much softer metals than banana plugs because they are so much thicker.
(http://www.douglasconnection.com/images/1333724609032-2113860919.jpeg)
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I actually run bare wire into my lofi system. My loend receiver accepts it.
Now, are most hiend system connectors pure copper? can they, at the push of a button, cold weld those spades into the receiver? Are the receiver discretes cold welded to their respective boards?
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Whats a Receiver? :)) :)) :D ;)
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It's a black box of awesomeness that has a lot of glory holes for all your eargasmic desires usually on it's behind.
(http://cdn.soundandvision.com/images/archivesart/507avrconfig.1.jpg)
But mine doesn't cold weld my cable. So fail.
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Not really. First of all a lot of high-end binding posts don't even accept bare wire, and you'll run into problems with multiple conductors per terminal. IMO the best option is a heavy, pure copper spade. Most banana plugs are hollow and can be difficult to machine if not made from a large percentage of brass, but spades are much more simple and can be made using much softer metals than banana plugs because they are so much thicker.
(http://www.douglasconnection.com/images/1333724609032-2113860919.jpeg)
nonsense. real men like OJ make their own speakers and pressure weld, I mean crimp, the cables directly to the voice coil leads of the drivers. spades are for lewsers who drive Infiniti and use Samsung gs6 smartphones
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I'm going to sound like a retard, but I actually do think the connections make a difference. At least a bad, rusty brass connector sounds bad to me. The difference is small enough that an xnor or Ethan Winer wouldn't notice it and it probably wouldn't show up in an RMAA loopback, but when you replace the connectors with new gold plated stuff it does sound more clear. FWIW I've heard more of a difference between connections rather than wire. BTW the connections that sound the best are soldered. Even when I use crimps I add solder. All this fucking welding crap is audiophool shit.
Anyway, I go for practicality when it comes to connectors. No idea why someone would want a copper connector as it's going to oxidize. Unless it's that special tellurium copper that my HD800 connector. That thing sounds great. Gold or rhodium otherwise. I think I prefer the sound of gold. Maybe because I'm part Jewish.
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I'm curious about the sound of Uranium.
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It's a black box of awesomeness that has a lot of glory holes for all your eargasmic desires usually on it's behind.
But mine doesn't cold weld my cable. So fail.
I'm amazed that they still stick 10,000 composite and S-video connections on the back of receivers. Who are these for??? Who has 10,000 VCRs and LaserDisc players?
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nonsense. real men like OJ make their own speakers and pressure weld, I mean crimp, the cables directly to the voice coil leads of the drivers. spades are for lewsers who drive Infiniti and use Samsung gs6 smartphones
You could certainly do that, but I wonder if those little voice coil leads will accept 8AWG+ wire...
The other problem with using bare wire is whether you have shitty ass spring clips or some type of screw down post, part of the cable will be continually exposed to air, and that copper will begin to turn green/brown before long and lose a fair bit of conductivity.
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Who are these for??? Who has 10,000 VCRs and LaserDisc players?
Maybe this lady?
(http://www.donstinson.com/scatt/calicocat/animated-cat-hoarder.gif)
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A notorious HiFi joke in China:
Coal fire plant generated electricity sounds warm;
Hydro plant generated electricity sounds cold but highly resolving;
Wind plant generated electricity sounds euphoric!
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Not really. First of all a lot of high-end binding posts don't even accept bare wire, and you'll run into problems with multiple conductors per terminal. IMO the best option is a heavy, pure copper spade. Most banana plugs are hollow and can be difficult to machine if not made from a large percentage of brass, but spades are much more simple and can be made using much softer metals than banana plugs because they are so much thicker.
I suppose the caveat would be if you could make a "good" bare wire to binding post connection. What we need are binding "posts" that work like this: http://cpc.farnell.com/productimages/standard/en_GB/60058087.jpg
to clamp down on wires.
Ah screw it (no pun intended), can we just convince people to use Speakon connectors instead?
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You could certainly do that, but I wonder if those little voice coil leads will accept 8AWG+ wire...
The other problem with using bare wire is whether you have shitty ass spring clips or some type of screw down post, part of the cable will be continually exposed to air, and that copper will begin to turn green/brown before long and lose a fair bit of conductivity.
Real men like OJ don't need to use 8AWG. 8AWG for audiophiles who envy Lexington Steele.
As OJ said, crimp and solder.
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Ah screw it (no pun intended), can we just convince people to use Speakon connectors instead?
That would work. PowerCon is a hell of a lot better than IEC inputs, that's for sure. I've used a number of AC cords that were so heavy they would just fall out of the IEC socket without some kind of support under them.
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I think that problem lies with the power cable and not the IEC socket :))
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I'm amazed that they still stick 10,000 composite and S-video connections on the back of receivers. Who are these for??? Who has 10,000 VCRs and LaserDisc players?
NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, Saturn, Dreamcast, Game Cube, etc, etc...
Ah screw it (no pun intended), can we just convince people to use Speakon connectors instead?
Sounds good to me. No more accidentally blowing up your output transistors!
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NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, Saturn, Dreamcast, Game Cube, etc, etc...
I used to daisy chain boxes like these to keep everything hooked up...
(http://www.nesrepairshop.com/Catalog/images/large/sac013_LRG.jpg)
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NES, SNES, PS1, PS2, Saturn, Dreamcast, Game Cube, etc, etc...
Nestopia, ZSNES, ePSXe, PCSX2, Chankast, Dolphin. The idea that you need 50 composite inputs for all of the Sega Saturn owners is a bit silly. Did they even sell 50 Saturns?
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Nestopia, ZSNES, ePSXe, PCSX2, Chankast, Dolphin. The idea that you need 50 composite inputs for all of the Sega Saturn owners is a bit silly. Did they even sell 50 Saturns?
I emulate nowadays too, but some people just like the "real thing". My little brother's got all the consoles now that we're allegedly grown up.
He's got a Saturn too. Off of ebay 5-6 years ago, plus a game shark to get rid of it's region lock and play Japanese discs on it.
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Dreamcast had option for VGA and ps2 component as well. Saturn I believe later on had attachment or was made to use VGA. Not sure. Memory and interest of gaming died with the ps1/n64 for me. Slowly got back into consoles with 360 but my interest died quick after gears of war two. Don't care too much bout newer consoles much and recently had to let go of my 32" Sony CRT HDTV with HDMI input to make room so my older consoles are packed away for now till I can afford a nice size plasma to wall mount cause only way I can have TV in my listening/main room nowadays cause of having 160lb altecs,150lb jbl dual 15" sub and 170lb peavey dual 18" sub taking up most of my space lol so, I need a wall mounted TV. Afterwards I'll hook my systems back up. I still have old radioshack switch box haha I use to use as well.
But yea...I like physical consoles. Still have them since nes even though not much of gamer anymore. My g/f is more of a gamer than I am.
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I think I've still got a Coleco in the basement somewhere...
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See I just can't do the originals anymore, not with their hideous 320x240 or 640x480 native resolutions. I need something that can scale to a resolution that isn't eye burning - an emulator. Running a PS1 game scaled to 1920x1080 is WAY better than playing the thing on an actual PS1.
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See I just can't do the originals anymore, not with their hideous 320x240 or 640x480 native resolutions. I need something that can scale to a resolution that isn't eye burning - an emulator. Running a PS1 game scaled to 1920x1080 is WAY better than playing the thing on an actual PS1.
If your TV sucks at scaling, then yeah, definitely.
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If your TV sucks at scaling, then yeah, definitely.
That is true. Some older TVs can scale really well. Just hope the TV does not have that high pitch beep.
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Depends. Playing old consoles on LCD/led or plasma can be very bad depending on the scalers. CRT is different. They just use lasers to adjust and render the image no matter resolution. LCD/led and plasma has to use a chip to scale below or above panels restricted resolution. It can't re render like crt . that where using things like an emulator and external GPU to completely re render the image with anti- aliasing can sharpen the image.
CRT doesn't have resolution restrictions or native resolution to deal with. Its limitations are dot pitch and refresh rate on how high of resolution they can render. I had a 3.5k professional 24" Sony cad CRT monitor that used BNC and VGA and rendered all resolutions very sharply. Only resolution looked bad was below 640x480 but, even standard TV never reached that low. My 32" Sony wega crt HDTV was amazing at rendering both standard 640x480 and 1920x1080i resolutions for all programs from coaxial to HDMI. It all depends. I never had issues with my older consoles. I just can't fit a CRT in my area even though how much I love them. I'm looking at professional plasmas cause I need something wall mountable and plasmas are closest besides dlp you'll get to CRT.
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Once again, tubes WIN! :D
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See I just can't do the originals anymore, not with their hideous 320x240 or 640x480 native resolutions. I need something that can scale to a resolution that isn't eye burning - an emulator. Running a PS1 game scaled to 1920x1080 is WAY better than playing the thing on an actual PS1.
But then you wouldn't be able to appreciate the full glory of E.T. on Atari... (I might have that in the basement somewhere too)
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Is this audiophoolery or not?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOwqyWdsWrE
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Once again, tubes WIN! :D
Can't wait to see the last tube screen smartphone !
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Is this audiophoolery or not?
Wow... 9.9k for a power strip, and the cords start at 5.4k...
Not even a glorified power bar that tries to be a surge protector or conditioner, nope, it's just a power strip.
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Wow... 9.9k for a power strip, and the cords start at 5.4k...
Not even a glorified power bar that tries to be a surge protector or conditioner, nope, it's just a power strip.
Yeah that's a BIT much. From what I can tell, it's a line of outlets, point-to-point wiring, and some bus bars. I could see spending a couple of hundred bucks on the very similar device that B-P-T makes. $10K, not so much.
(http://dagogo.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Powerslave-Acrylic_003.jpg)
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"I'm not an alchemist." :)p13
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Is this audiophoolery or not?
See, you make stuff out of marble it works wonders on the sound! And on the msrp. Don't think I am buying it. Isn't the current still going to be limited to 15 amps before his circuit breaker, dedicated or not kicks in? Even if it's a higher rating, this thing isn't going to let more current through. Is it a superconductor and liquid nitrogen cooled? And it makes the soundstage so wide it moves the walls? Wow now that's power. Maybe he moved the MBL's while he was working and finally got them placed correctly in the room. I have read they are supersensitive when it comes to room position. Just a little bit can make a big difference. Seems more likely an explanation than this thing causing it.
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So I can get 4 of these receptacles... http://www.partsconnexion.com/FTECH-74279.html that's about $1k
Need those matching covers... http://www.partsconnexion.com/product23166.html ok another $450, the base plates underneath another $640
Now the IEC inlet... http://www.partsconnexion.com/product23154.html another $125
(not intentionally choosing Furutech, it's just the most expensive I could find)
Piece of marble... Maybe $1k? let's generously assume another $1k for tools and work to cut the holes.
Ok so that brings us to roughly 4.5k. Miscellaneous other fiddly bits, let's round up to a nice $5k. Double that for standard cable markup and margins. There we go, $10k :))
Or I could just get this big honkin' thing: http://www.amazon.ca/Tripp-Lite-IS1800HG-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B00008N6S7
It's 58 pounds! That's encroaching on monster Krell territory.
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See, you make stuff out of marble it works wonders on the sound! And on the msrp. Don't think I am buying it. Isn't the current still going to be limited to 15 amps before his circuit breaker, dedicated or not kicks in? Even if it's a higher rating, this thing isn't going to let more current through. Is it a superconductor and liquid nitrogen cooled? And it makes the soundstage so wide it moves the walls? Wow now that's power. Maybe he moved the MBL's while he was working and finally got them placed correctly in the room. I have read they are supersensitive when it comes to room position. Just a little bit can make a big difference. Seems more likely an explanation than this thing causing it.
He didn't move the speakers. Those things aren't exactly lightweight or easy to move. He did what audio reviewers do, a combination of making shit up, and creating a presumptive bias. There's no PFC in there. There's no anything in there, it's just some outlets wired together. Could different ground paths affect the sound? Possibly. If that's the case, this would also solve the problem, for about 2% of the cost. It's some outlets, wired together, in a box. TADA!
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/bpt5/hero_strip2.jpg)
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Ok so that brings us to roughly 4.5k. Miscellaneous other fiddly bits, let's round up to a nice $5k. Double that for standard cable markup and margins. There we go, $10k :))
Or I could just get this big honkin' thing: http://www.amazon.ca/Tripp-Lite-IS1800HG-Isolation-Transformer/dp/B00008N6S7
It's 58 pounds! That's encroaching on monster Krell territory.
A 2:1 markup in the cable world would be considered a stone cold bargain. Audio dealers get their merchandise at 2:1 if they're lucky. YOU will be paying 5:1, which is typical markup for audio products, though it's often a lot higher than that.
58 pounds for an ISO transformer is weak sauce. You call that a knife? This is a knife.
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/equitech/1.jpg)
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hello,
i lost it at "microscopic vibration." facepalm
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58 pounds for an ISO transformer is weak sauce. You call that a knife? This is a knife.
(http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/equitech/1.jpg)
http://www.equitech.com/products/wall/wall.html
687 lbs...
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http://www.equitech.com/products/wall/wall.html
687 lbs...
Yeah that wall better be load bearing lol.
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So my $150 on sale power strip is really a power distributor all this time. :)p13 You know, now that I know that, I think the soundstage on my Paradox's just went all the way over to the walls. It's incredible! :-DD
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Power distributor yes. Just like sanitation executive.
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Yeah that wall better be load bearing lol.
*ahem* I think it may qualify as the load bearing wall...
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Power distributor yes. Just like sanitation executive.
Well if that works, I think I will develop my own line of headphones. But I will call them Longitudinal Wave Propagators. With patented compression/rarefaction technology. TM "They sound livelier than live! With a soundstage wider than the Grand Canyon." :)p1
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Well if that works, I think I will develop my own line of headphones. But I will call them Longitudinal Wave Propagators. With patented compression/rarefaction technology. TM "They sound livelier than live! With a soundstage wider than the Grand Canyon." :)p1
You're off to the races. The more the cost, the worse they can be.
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You're off to the races. The more the cost, the worse they can be.
Oh almost forgot. "The worlds first $10,000 Propagator, and worth every penny"- What Hi-Fi
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Another Audiophoolery or not video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KVu5NXEHns
How does this device improve the sound? I wonde? poo
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Cable and Magnets?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxX4JDJ1ag0
The prices are also sky high:
http://www.highfidelitycables.com/product-interconnect-rca.html
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Saw that demo in person. Sadly, their room sounded bad. Can't say if there was a correlation.
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Saw that demo in person. Sadly, their room sounded bad. Can't say if there was a correlation.
Therefore one can't say there was not.
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That video hurts my brain...
0:37
we found a way to actually really help you use your own ears...
(3 seconds later)
you can actually see with your eyes what's going on, and then you can go listen to it
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That video hurts my brain...
0:37
we found a way to actually really help you use your own ears...
(3 seconds later)
you can actually see with your eyes what's going on, and then you can go listen to it
Shortly afterwards he says "this a metaphor for a cable" and my mind shifts from scepticism to sarcasm.
Is this metaphor literary or poetic?
Does this metaphor require you to use your imagination?
Is the imaginary metaphor effective in the mind and in the physical matter?
What does Plato think of your metaphor? Do you know he is dead?
Does this cable actually carry a signal from source to speaker metaphorically and literally?
Did you hire elves from Walt Disney to elven dust the cable to enhance its imaginary powers?
Was it expensive to hire Tinker Bell?
Is this the one cable to rule them all forged by Sauron in Middle-Earth?
Is this cable resistant against the dark force regarding Darth Vader when you are into Jedi audio?
Is this metaphor for a cable actually a cable or a construct of the mind?
I stop here before I enter severe silliness...
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This is going to be interesting:
http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/ars-prepares-to-put-audiophile-ethernet-cables-to-the-test-in-las-vegas/
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Cable and Magnets?
The prices are also sky high:
http://www.highfidelitycables.com/product-interconnect-rca.html
Would you expect anything less from the guy that made these?
(http://img.canuckaudiomart.com/uploads/large/156889-virtual_dynamics_genesis_11_ac_power_cord_6__7_feet.jpg)
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That Ars Technica article does look interesting. I like this quote from the article:
"This isn’t the first time the JREF has taken on audiophile-grade cables. In 2007, the foundation offered its Million Dollar Challenge prize to the Pear Cable Company if the company could prove its $7,250 audio cables improved sound quality as advertised. The Pear Cable Company declined the offer."
It doesn't seem like that company has much confidence in their own product.
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That Ars Technica article does look interesting. I like this quote from the article:
"This isn’t the first time the JREF has taken on audiophile-grade cables. In 2007, the foundation offered its Million Dollar Challenge prize to the Pear Cable Company if the company could prove its $7,250 audio cables improved sound quality as advertised. The Pear Cable Company declined the offer."
It doesn't seem like that company has much confidence in their own product.
I'm curious as well. The original story is a bit weird, the challenge was whether Fremer could hear the difference between Monster and some expensive high-end cable. Though they settled on the Pear cables, Fremer offered to use his own Tara, which JREF seemed to at least initially agree was a viable option. Then when Pear backed out, JREF decided the test was over before it had begun, without offering Mike the chance to do it with his Tara, which wouldn't have required Tara providing anything or even their consent to be included.
http://www.conradaskland.com/blog/2007/10/pear-cables-offered-jref-challenge/
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High Fidelity Cables is owned by Ric Schultz?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3M1o-YW2s2A
The same guy who did the Yggdrasil mods:
http://www.tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Schiit_mod.html
Here's his magnetic power video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZn9rXN1lic
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Here's his magnetic power video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZn9rXN1lic
What a load of shit. These guys are shameless.
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Rick Schultz and Ric Schultz are different people I am pretty sure. Rick is the cable guy. Ric is the mod guy.
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UZIS7IG9rFQ
:-\ :)p1
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Yup. Can't say I'm getting a LightSpeed anytime soon. I would look into some of LH more reasonably priced (and mature) gadgets.
BTW, Cat 7 can do 10Gbps over >100m. Here a $5 10ft chunck:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812422586
You may ask yourself why so cheap? Well. Was it made in a vacuum chamber? No. Was is cold welded? No. Does it have silver? Seems mostly copper so proly not.
What does it have to do with USB cable? Nothing, but it passes 10 Gbps.
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This is a pretty good video by Lachlan.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLEhfieoMq8
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BTW, Cat 7 can do 10Gbps over >100m.
Cat6 solid core can do this for 1Gbps (~1GHz), this makes me wonder about skin effect for audio cables.
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Yup. Can't say I'm getting a LightSpeed anytime soon. I would look into some of LH more reasonably priced (and mature) gadgets.
BTW, Cat 7 can do 10Gbps over >100m. Here a $5 10ft chunck:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16812422586
You may ask yourself why so cheap? Well. Was it made in a vacuum chamber? No. Was is cold welded? No. Does it have silver? Seems mostly copper so proly not.
What does it have to do with USB cable? Nothing, but it passes 10 Gbps.
Cat 7...man.
First: "Category 7 is not recognized by the TIA/EIA."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_11801#CAT7
Second: those Newegg cables might not pass Cat 5e. If you're buying it from a consumer market retailer than I would genuinely doubt it's anywhere near Cat 7.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/is-your-cat6-a-dog.htm
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This is a pretty good video by Lachlan.
Curious to know what folks think about this video. I don't feel like I have good enough theoretical understanding of this to say one way or another. I have read this argument before several times, as well as counter arguments.
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Curious to know what folks think about this video. I don't feel like I have good enough theoretical understanding of this to say one way or another. I have read this argument before several times, as well as counter arguments.
He did not address recording, production and mastering in the video. Thing is, his presentation is good enough to make a partially visual learner like me dig a bit deeper.
I used to compare 16 bit and 24 bit recordings. I used to have vinyl records. Between the three I prefer the rich vinyl sound and while 24 bits can give you more subtle details I am still content with 16 bits audio. For different situations different solutions apply if you ask me.
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Curious to know what folks think about this video. I don't feel like I have good enough theoretical understanding of this to say one way or another. I have read this argument before several times, as well as counter arguments.
Pretty much spot on. He could have gone into more detail about using dither to deal with correlated quantization error, but it's a very good introduction.
He did not address recording, production and mastering in the video.
He did mention why 24 bit is useful for for recording and production right at the end.
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Curious to know what folks think about this video. I don't feel like I have good enough theoretical understanding of this to say one way or another. I have read this argument before several times, as well as counter arguments.
I generally agree with DF. Saying nothing about Lachlan's ultimate conclusion (and justification for the same) this provides a very accessible understanding of what bit depth actually means. Years back, I had to read forever to try and understand it, and usually articles included all kinds of shitty metaphors (fucking cars). Lachlan includes none, actually explains bits in this context, and uses actual hypothetical examples (jackhammer, NASA launch). I see the value of having higher bit tracks, but I can also see how for most people, especially those watching Lachlan - who admittedly caters to lower cost, more accessible, more portable gear - would realize no benefit from 24 bit.
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I'm sure this has been posted before. But it is clearly written and understandable. http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html (http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html)
I have to agree with the SACD vs. CD when it comes to better masters. Or better mastering. I think about some HDTRACKS hires downloads that sound worse, not better than my old CD's. Too many of them do actually. I blame a lot of it on reduced DR in the remastering process.
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Yeah, that is the first one lachlan cites to as well. Its very good, but gah, so many words.
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It is long. It took 3 cups of coffee to get through it. But I learned a lot, so it was worth it.
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Cat6 solid core can do this for 1Gbps (~1GHz), this makes me wonder about skin effect for audio cables.
Cat6 can do 10Gbps but it may not go as far in distance as Cat7.
Cat 7...man.
First: "Category 7 is not recognized by the TIA/EIA."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO/IEC_11801#CAT7
Second: those Newegg cables might not pass Cat 5e. If you're buying it from a consumer market retailer than I would genuinely doubt it's anywhere near Cat 7.
https://www.bluejeanscable.com/articles/is-your-cat6-a-dog.htm
Wether is recognized by TIA/EIA or not, I know most Cat7 can do 10Gbps. At least the Belden samples we got quite a few years ago did while I was at another company. I worked on the 10GBase-T PHY. In fact, Cat 5e can also do 10Gbps... up to 50 meters. Though I think I got that to work quite a few meters further than that.
That sample cable is like 10ft. 10ft of Cat 5e w/o any patch panels to worry about should do 10Gbps in its sleep. $5 of overkill right there.
(EDIT: Shut! Should have said meters - we use to have an inside joke "100 meters, 100%", so 10ft is like peanuts.)
(EDIT2: Note 10GBase-T transceivers use quite a bit of adaptive equalization not just for cable but to counter all kinds of echo which your average good-looking ill-functioning mega-buck "shine it must, work it might" audio interface may not have. But the capacity is definitively there.)
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It is long. It took 3 cups of coffee to get through it. But I learned a lot, so it was worth it.
I have to follow your example. Hopefully I can limit myself to two coffees and a snack...
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http://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2015/07/gallery-we-tear-apart-a-340-audiophile-ethernet-cable-and-look-inside/
Silver coated ethernet cables indeed.
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This is interesting, cable lifters may not be snake oil basing on this video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uhobsHs-_o
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Interesting indeed! I wonder what are the time and voltage resolution settings in that scope?
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I'd say this is probably because of that steel table plate. Who has floor made of this?
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K, anything Cardas does needs to be repeated under controlled conditions. Sorry if I don't trust someone who claims to have invented neodymium for use in his 'earspeakers'.
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This is interesting, cable lifters may not be snake oil basing on this video:
I'm curious how somebody like Kimber would respond to that. The vast majority of what they sell has no shielding whatsoever.
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I'd say this is probably because of that steel table plate. Who has floor made of this?
non twisted pair
and exposed barrel touching said metal table
etc
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K, anything Cardas does needs to be repeated under controlled conditions. Sorry if I don't trust someone who claims to have invented neodymium for use in his 'earspeakers'.
Did he really say or at least strongly imply that? I must have blocked it out of my memory.
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Did he really say or at least strongly imply that? I must have blocked it out of my memory.
Well, that's a bit of my hyperbole layered over his own. I figured why not just go all in with it, lol. What he said was his ear speaker had "cracked the code" and part of that is due to the 'recent' development of neodymium. I'm not sure how 'recent' is recent to George or whether he's aware how long neodymium has been used in headphones and IEMs other than his own. Here's the clip which you can start at 13:00 if it doesn't already.
The context was all IEMs produced to that point sound like shit and hurt his ears, and he was going to fix that using his latest and greatest breakthroughs for his ear speaker. Well, they did have one of the warmest and least extended sounds of any IEM I've used. George does have a 'sound' he is looking for with everything he does it seems to me.
https://youtu.be/JVvavLHZbbo?t=13m