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Author Topic: Crossfeed, how?  (Read 10629 times)

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AstralStorm

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2013, 07:27:42 PM »

Yes, head-fit is plenty good, except it's combing the signal in excess due to incorrect FIR filtering (no delay adjustment) and feeding into the center/mono channel causing yet more combing. (To see head-fit's combing, use correlated noise in its generator.)
However, its ITD control is too low granularity - people can resolve even 6 us at some frequencies (near 1kHz), 2.5 degrees in spherical model. Head-fit has 10 us precision. Plus the controls are quite tricky to set up - I prefer the new ones in my filter, the angle has a direct physical representation.

I will will not implement frequency-dependent ITD as well, possibly with a separate filter from ILDs - since it looks to be linear... in cats. Spherical model has an ITD hump similar to ILD. (EDIT: see below.)

Source: http://hal-ens.archives-ouvertes.fr/docs/00/74/21/38/PDF/paper.pdf

--
In birds, the curve is very slightly U-shaped - almost flat with a boost in bass.
http://www.springerimages.com/Images/LifeSciences/1-10.1007_s00359-006-0139-0-8 <- Springer be damned for their pricing.

Now, I need the actual measurements of this for homo sapiens.
--

Herp de derp. facepalm
http://resource.isvr.soton.ac.uk/FDAG/VAP/html/localisation.html
"Wightman and Kistler (1997) found that the fact that ITD is frequency dependant and is larger at low frequencies than at high frequencies (Kuhn, 1977) is perceptually irrelevant."

--
Also this: http://stuff.mit.edu/afs/athena/course/other/hst.723/OldFiles/www/ThemePapers/Binaural/MacphersonMiddlebrooks2002.pdf
« Last Edit: September 03, 2013, 07:53:04 PM by AstralStorm »
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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2013, 04:33:35 PM »

Astralstorm, do you know if the volume/gain control in headfit lowers the bits/deteriorates sound quality?
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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #52 on: September 06, 2013, 06:05:23 PM »

Anyway after making sure it isn't a fluke and that it could really be a long term thing, I have been using headfit the past few days and have been tuning with more music instead of just the included test signals and I've come up with a .27ms setting instead of the .34 making the timbre more natural. It also so happens that the calculation for my head size should be around .284ms but the plugin skips from .27 to .29 and I find .27 less stressed sounding. I also compensated the ILD HF to make it so that the pink noise bleeding to the opposite side doesn't sound unnatural. I got a -28db value there.

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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #53 on: September 07, 2013, 06:20:44 AM »

different frequencies leak towards the opposite channel at different intensities which is why it is hard to get one universally correct setting. One song may have more of certain frequencies and sometimes it makes hard panned inormation seem less natural than another setting depending on the song/instrument/vocal timbre/etc... being processed. My mission for the morning was to get something that I was happy with in as many songs and passages as possible going back and forth between the songs, the test signals and the unprocessed signal at the same time. I came with this setting which I hope I can leave alone and be content with LOL

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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #54 on: September 07, 2013, 05:02:00 PM »

to tighten up the center image, I go to .34ms though but maintain the same settings on the other parameters
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AstralStorm

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #55 on: September 11, 2013, 05:39:50 AM »

different frequencies leak towards the opposite channel at different intensities which is why it is hard to get one universally correct setting. One song may have more of certain frequencies and sometimes it makes hard panned inormation seem less natural than another setting depending on the song/instrument/vocal timbre/etc... being processed. My mission for the morning was to get something that I was happy with in as many songs and passages as possible going back and forth between the songs, the test signals and the unprocessed signal at the same time. I came with this setting which I hope I can leave alone and be content with LOL

Not really, the frequencies leak linearly until 3000 Hz or so. (while head-fit starts combing lower at most settings) Center combing is an undesirable stereo artifact actually - true mono speaker and live sound in front do not exhibit that, it's well hidden in non-anechoic-chamber stereo by the room combing and speaker nonlinearities, there's less of it than that. Plus it is very distance-dependent. My crossfeed, which simulates a 3-channel setup, specifically avoids this artifact.
The combing in any reasonably reverberant room is more complex and usually not as deep and wide as head-fit's ITD-related combing.

The whole idea is that if your IEMs/headphones are reasonably linear (preferably equalized), they simulate a true mono source when given a mono signal. It's a waste not to use that feature. Just add real life reflections (say, measured mono or better, dual mono convolution reverb) and you're set.
Without head tracking, that's as far as you can go.

More fun: http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.142.1989&rep=rep1&type=pdf
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 06:11:57 AM by AstralStorm »
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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #56 on: September 11, 2013, 08:45:52 AM »

I still find your crossfeed to be too congested for my taste. I am not saying that it fails to simulate speakers so far as imaging is concerned more than other crossfeed plugins. All I am saying is that what I want is something more like the meier natural crossfeed over headrooms crossfeed implementation for example. I just want a deaf ear effect elimination with minimal coloring of the sound. I don't want to feel like my headphones are being toed in or put farther away from me. All I want is the same headphone sound with less fatigue. The thing about trying to simulate speakers with a crossfeed circuit is that the usual monitor type headphone for example has a frequency response targeted to sound natural without any plugins. So when a crossfeed plugin is introduced, the sound usually becomes either like a bloated speaker with decent imaging or a thin sounding speaker with decent imaging all depending on whether the crossfeed plugin adds or subtracts bass.

I was just listening to the files at the meier site here by the way http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm and tried out the samples of crossfeed vs no crossfeed and tweaked headfit to get a naturalness similar to the medium setting channel test. It turns out my setting on headfit was a little too high(thin) and a setting of .34, .20, and a change to around 1400hz in the f-central value made the signal sound almost identical to meiers medium setting. I am really liking the effect.
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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #57 on: September 11, 2013, 10:58:37 AM »

Here is the setting I came up with when trying to copy the meier sound.



The .16 makes everything feel more focused at the left feeling like there is less bass bleeding towards the other side. I don't really understand why it works this way since it is a high frequency setting. Maybe it becomes more coherent which is why its like that?
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AstralStorm

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #58 on: September 11, 2013, 05:18:43 PM »

Meier's advanced crossfeed is exactly what I do. Specifically, the improved 3-channel variant of his, as described on this page:
http://www.meier-audio.homepage.t-online.de/crossfeed.htm - near the keyword CORDA.
The only thing I did is decouple ITD from ILD tunables.
If you set the high feed to -<lots> dB and ITD to be ~300 us (slightly higher than the default - set head wider by 1.5 cm) you will get almost exactly the same behavior. (Different slope of the lowpass is possible - tweak the steepness as you wish.)
Head-fit can only approximate that as it feeds mono signal.

I think you haven't tried to tune the tunables to taste - the defaults are pretty hefty.
The only difference is that the ITD is constant and not smoothly decreasing with frequency like in passive crossfeeds.
I can add an IIR allpass filter to do exactly this. (in addition to the much better Lagrange-interpolated fractional delay.)
That will by design introduce phase distortion - but will allow changing ITD and better emulation of passive crossfeed circuits.

BS2b is doing the original "natural" crossfeed. Mine will do too if you set ITD to 0 -> spread angle 0 with ITD tune 0.
The knee might be a bit different than the 1st order Bessel filter - and has tunable steepness.
« Last Edit: September 11, 2013, 05:26:41 PM by AstralStorm »
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donunus

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Re: Crossfeed, how?
« Reply #59 on: September 11, 2013, 06:53:25 PM »

I do notice the center channel nasality by the way... I had to turn the .16 back to .20 to get the center channel sounding more normal on headfit.

I will try yours again but this time I will tweak the values. I was afraid to touch anything before since it seemed a little too complex and was affraid to mess up the sound too much.
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