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Author Topic: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?  (Read 24442 times)

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kkl10

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How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« on: December 20, 2012, 11:11:13 PM »

I've been researching for a nice little USB Dac to include on my new setup.
On the process I became aware of some facts that I didn't know before.
This thread subject is about one main issue I have found to possibly affect a lot of USB powered Dacs.
I find it an interesting and important matter for discussion as the USB input is becoming more and more universal in Dacs these days, unfortunatelly, I haven't found a unified and comprehensive source of knowledge on this matter, just some scattered threads all over the place...

So I thought I should open a new chatroom here in the objectivist/subjectivist pirates conciliator Island and introduce the subject...
If you have anything to say about this subject please feel free to express it in this thread.
I'm still learning and will apprecciate any input provided.

I'll live here a link for a nice little thread I randomly found on Google to set up the mood:
http://jplay.eu/forum/computer-audio/clean-usb-out-of-pc/

Hopefully this thread will help to bring more attention to this issue...
(Going to bed now will be back tomorrow... :P)

EDIT: I'll silently add other sources of related info which might add to the discussion...

http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=112754
http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/c35e.pdf
http://tf.nist.gov/general/pdf/1133.pdf
http://144.206.159.178/ft/641/86170/1456966.pdf
http://www.mpoweruk.com/index.htm
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/power-supplies/214471-anyone-listened-li-ion-batteries.html
http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/31268-low-jitter-clocking-essential-for-quality-digital-palyback/
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/can-changing-my-usb-cable-improve-sound-audiolab-8200cd-9451/
http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=print&thread=7327
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/hs_usb_pdg_r1_0.pdf
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/USB-IFTestProc1_3.pdf
http://www.usb.org/developers/docs/
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs#approved
http://www.usb.org/developers/compliance/USB-IF_USB_2_0_Electrical_Test_Spec081005.pdf
http://www.usb.org/developers/devclass_docs/CabConn20.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_signaling
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Differential_amplifier
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Characteristic_impedance
http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue43/jitter.htm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jitter
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_line
http://www.stereophile.com/content/pcm-over-usb-1
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_isolation
http://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/27756/why-are-ethernet-rj45-sockets-magnetically-coupled
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_isolator
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audio_over_Ethernet
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/169371-audio-over-ethernet-pc-ethernet-controller.html
http://www.audioasylum.com/forums/pcaudio/messages/7719.html
http://www.scalatech.co.uk/papers/aes93.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Data_buffer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_delay_variation
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Packet_switching
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transmission_Control_Protocol
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transport_layer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_physical_layer
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category_6_cable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twisted_pair_cable
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethernet_over_twisted_pair
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/digital-source/85473-die-spdif-design-ethernet-dac.html
http://www.audiostream.com/content/unicorns-networked-dacs
http://forum.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/fr.pl?ddgtl&1179056058&openusid&zzAudioengr&4&5
http://www.thewelltemperedcomputer.com/KB/USB.html
http://www.head-fi.org/t/546092/confirming-whether-your-dac-is-asynchronous-as-claimed-or-not
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?7293-USB-Cable-Shootout/page3
http://wiki.xtronics.com/index.php/Wire-Gauge_Ampacity
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_wire_gauge
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/wire_resistance.html
http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,942.0.html
http://www.epanorama.net/documents/wiring/
« Last Edit: May 11, 2013, 06:21:42 PM by kkl10 »
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AstralStorm

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #1 on: December 21, 2012, 12:02:11 AM »

Well, my desktop's USB of this high end ASUS P8B WS mainboard is very clean power and perfect wattage too.
However, the USB 2 clocks could be better, they have some drift. Unsuprisingly, USB 3 port does better still. Slower clock than expected, but very even.
Part of this stability is probably the high end PSU in it. (Seasonic. They do make some great cheap ones too.)
Not that any well implemented good DAC would really have issues with noisy power.

However, the best way is to connect the DAC via optical SPDIF (coax is acceptable too, but worse) and use a dedicated external USB power supply, avoiding all problems with drifty USB clocks and adaptive mode isochronous USB.
If you feel adventureous, build your own online power supply or buy a lab power supply. A very good lab supply for this kind of DC voltage and current costs some $60.
Do watch out for chinese air being sold instead - it may even deliver some power...
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burnspbesq

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #2 on: December 21, 2012, 12:20:07 AM »

I have a very good USB-powered DAC, the Resonessence Concero.

When I first got it, I thought (and said so in the Concero thread at HF) that I wasn't hearing any of the funky stuff that we normally ascribe to dirty power.

Then I got the iFi Micro USB power supply, and there was an immediately noticeable improvement in the overall performance of the Concero.

The iFi is $216 shipped in the US.  It's definitely worth it.
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #3 on: December 21, 2012, 12:40:21 AM »



OR



Obviously if you are using a laptop, your choice is made for you.
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #4 on: December 21, 2012, 12:43:37 AM »

Not that any well implemented good DAC would really have issues with noisy power.

However, the best way is to connect the DAC via optical SPDIF (coax is acceptable too, but worse) and use a dedicated external USB power supply, avoiding all problems with drifty USB clocks and adaptive mode isochronous USB.

All of this is extremely false. There is absolutely no correlation between the quality of the DAC and its USB input. Most DAC manufacturers don't really understand USB yet. See EMM/Meitner and their bus powered, unisolated USB inputs. Optical is the worst way to connect anything!
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Tari

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #5 on: December 21, 2012, 12:52:26 AM »

I wouldn't say EMM doesn't understand USB (or that having an unisolated USB connection was a decision made out of ignorance of the tech), he made a calculated decision based on what he thought had more pros than cons.  Might not have been the right decision, but wasn't from lack of understanding the tech. 
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #6 on: December 21, 2012, 02:16:34 AM »

Perhaps. Using any form of bus power at any stage though (for a high-end DAC at least) to me shows a lack of understanding (or caring about) USB performance. That's like having the worlds best water filter connected to a sewer. Channel Island's Transient is capable of running both on and off of bus power, so it's obviously not something that's difficult to engineer. It's just laziness IMO.
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #7 on: December 21, 2012, 06:15:55 AM »

The problem isn't USB really, but in general computer AND audio where more than one device is connected to mains via a SMPS (Switch Mode Power Supply) is what's giving the problems.
In this case one would have to isolate (break the ground loop).
For RFI, however, breaking a groundloop with an isolation transformer is not feasable as transformers show very little attenuation.
They do attenuate for the old fashioned hum though.

Consider each device connected to mains as an individual power source with each having a different (even when the same power supply is used) frequency spectrum, voltage level and currents.
To visualize: connect the + of a 12V battery to a + of a 6V battery while connecting the - of both batteries with say 50 Ohms.
In the wire connecting the 2 +'s there will flow (about) 120mA of current.
As the wire has a certain resistance a voltage a small voltage will fall over that wire.

Now change the batteries for audio equipment, the - contacts connected via a 50Ohm R to the safety ground or just simple the area (literally air) around you, substitute the current that will flow for Radio frequencies that ALSO visualize 2 audio devices which are 'connected' via ground, substitute the wire between the 2 +'s for the screen of an interlink + the all important PCB traces and signal routing in there. Note that digital works with edges (transitions) and levels (high-low) at very high frequencies.
Note that the SMPS garbage also works at very high frequencies in the same domain.

Now when you connect 2 of those power supplies (the one in the PC is HORRIBLE) and realise the ground/shield/common of that PC, (even when connected to safety ground !) will have a certain RF power and is connected to a source with another voltage/current frequency spectrum connected via the common of the USB cord you can understand that strange currents will flow and voltages will develop. (this all depends on IF the DAC is also mains fed or simply 'floating and USB fed)

For DIGITAL this MIGHT have some influence but would be limited but here's the thing... that USB ground is (in 95% of all DACs) also connected via interlinks to the amplifier.
The amplifier in itself also has a 'power supply' and the one from the PC/DAC is flowing in the ground/screen.
Depending on the contacts of the plugs, current and frequency spectrum of the RF signals, resistance (impedance in this case) of the screen, and HOW wires are connected in the amplifier section and the immunity for (common mode) garbage that is always present but mostly needs a minimal amount to be come audible.

Remember the cell phone in close proximity to audio/video equipment that emits 900MHZ or 1800MHz yet you still hear those familiar sounds... this is all due to rectifying/AM detection as in radio action of the semiconductors in the amplifiers themselves.

So there you have it... and this applies for only analog as well as soon as SMPS's are in use.
I am willing to bet people have experienced strange sounds or 'a strange pressure'  while listening to music they find hard to get rid off.
In the all analog days problems like hum would magically appear, now this can 'fog' audio.

One thing that is certain to break a (RFI) groundloop between the PC and audio is .... fibre-optics (think TOSLINK).
But having this between a DAC (with it's own SMPS) and an amplifier connected to the DAC also will show the problem but that horrible PC power supply is out of the loop so the levels might very well be below the 'detector' limit in the amplifier.
Other 'simple' measures can be taken to minimize garbage entering the audio chain and (possibly) clouding/fogging/interfering with audio.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2012, 06:25:24 AM by Solderdude »
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #8 on: December 21, 2012, 09:26:30 AM »


One thing that is certain to break a (RFI) groundloop between the PC and audio is .... fibre-optics (think TOSLINK).

True. But then you trade one problem (electrical ground contamination) for another (extreme levels of jitter, and in many cases max out at 24/96). Ideally, you want to power your computer with either a battery supply or a linear PS. With a conventional CPU this is problematic, you need multi-rail outputs and a pretty big transformer or a huge battery. With the Atom though, this is no longer necessary. Power consumption can be kept under 30W, and the computer can be fed with a single 12V input which is then changed to the other required voltages via onboard DC-DC regulators. It's not ideal, but with commercially available hardware it's pretty much the best solution going. With a battery you can take the computer off the grid entirely, and even with a LPS you lower the amount of DC ripple feeding the board power (and ultimately the USB ports) by an order of magnitude compared to a SMPS or even a top quality ATX power supply, the very best of which will have 10-20X the amount of ripple of a LPS.

Then you can go a step further with the SoTM card or the iFi USB hub, both of which can bring their own power rather than pulling it from the board. You always need some sort of ground connected for USB streaming to work, but you can and should cut the power leg, either by the switch on the SoTM card, or a USB cable with the power line disconnected, or with Empirical's Short Block common mode choke which cuts the power. This requires of course that the USB input of whatever device you are using is completely self powered, which is the way it should be with all high-end USB devices, but sadly is not. The $1895 Alpha USB for example powers its entire input section via the bus, which is lazy, lazy engineering.
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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2012, 01:42:56 PM »

Some other boring sources of info I've found:
http://www.audioasylum.com/cgi/vt.mpl?f=pcaudio&m=112754
http://www.murata.com/products/catalog/pdf/c35e.pdf

OK then, some questions I want to clarify:

Does "RFI" correlate to Radio Frequency Interference, EMI at very high frequencies?
So I reckon that both DC ripple and RFI are caused by the PC SMPS functional architecture, correct?
And any other non linear power supply and EMI being cauesd also by other sources, I reckon...
Can I minimize the EMI effects on a USB cable by shielding it with some material?

I have no idea what kind of PSU is inside my desktop PC, I think it's just a generic one probably SMPS.
But replacing the PC PSU is out of question to me, at this moment.
So what is that I could possibly do to minimize all the nasty effects on the following system?

PC USB - ODAC RCA - Violectric V100 - headphones.
The PC and V100 PSUs would be connected on the same power strip... is this elegible to create a ground loop?
It is mentioned that most USB interfaces are powered up by the PC USB bus, did I understand correctly?

I've seen several devices mentioned here to address common mode noise and ground loop but they're way to expensive.
How about something like this between the PC USB and the Dac?
http://www.circuitsathome.com/products-page/usb-interfaces
or this? https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/USB-ISO/

If I where to connect a portable battery pack to one of these isolators wouldn't I have a separate power supply for my USB Dac interface?
I see that one of these solutions does not garranty separate data and power lines, would it make no difference then?
Neither of these solutions supports High speed data rate(480Mbps) but I don't think that's very relevant for audio playback...

And what about Jitter?
"Jitter is the undesired deviation from true periodicity of an assumed periodic signal in electronics and telecommunications, often in relation to a reference clock source." From Wikipedia, I love this website!

I've read that EMI can cause it, so I reckon that most USB ports from most PCs output data with some degree of jitter?
This seems to be an issue that derives from other external influences like the other issues mentioned above.
So it seems reasonable to me that by addressing the above issues first, I can prevent the formation of Jitter in the Data stream sent to the Dac... at least to some extent...
And even if there is still Jitter at the Dac input, it will be mitigated if the Dac has some internal reclocking feature built in... so I guesss that i shouldn't worry to much about Jitter with the ODAC... (Hope I'm making sense I have no idea what I'm talking about :P)
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