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Author Topic: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?  (Read 24443 times)

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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2012, 10:55:16 PM »

I'm in Portugal, ~230/50Hz mains I think, the outlet sockets here are the 2 pins type and the plugs are either type C or F.

I'm not sure if there would be any issue by doing this?

In the NL we also have type C and F.
checking for lowest leakage will never hurt the sound.

Simply follow the guide.
With F type sockets/plugs the 'finger rub' method won't work when connected to an F type socket (as it should) but the trick works when an F type is plugged into a C socket.
Be prepared to feel 'tingling' when you do connect the PC this way as safety ground is just to make sure you won't get 'shocked' when plugged into a F socket.
Yet you wouldn't believe how many people plug F type (the 3 pin grounded socket) into a C socket (2 pin) intended for double isolated things.
Lot's of people simply have their PC with a 3 pin plug connected to a 'normal' 2 pin socket or their 3 pin expansion cord plugged into a 2 pin socket in the bedroom.
I am one of those A-holes but checked for lowest leakage.  :-[  ::)  ;)
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2012, 10:57:10 PM »

So... that IFI thing is good?

It depends on which IFI thing  :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFI   ;)
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2012, 12:52:53 AM »

So... that IFI thing is good?

By all accounts, yes. I had been recommending the Vaunix Lab Brick to people which is the same basic idea, but the the iUSB promises a much lower noise power supply than what Vaunix is using, and it's designed specifically to be able to handle Y-type USB cables such as those from Ridge Street and Acoustic Revive that the Vaunix isn't. For the same price, I think it's a no brainer. The SoTM card costs almost twice as much, and out of the box it needs to draw from the computer's power supply which of course is not ideal. You could rig up a battery supply for it, or use a custom one or a LPS, but that's even more cost, and I'm not sure exactly how much benefit there is vs. the iUSB.

Again I feel like I should point out that if you're hunting RF and EMI on a general purpose computer that changes clock speeds, is running all kinds of programs and services, anti-virus, etc. you are kind of wasting your time. General purpose computers make for bad hifi music players. If you want the best sound, you want your computer to do essentially NOTHING but play music. Taking that to the extreme would be a dedicated JPlay box in hibernate/overdrive mode which literally does nothing but play music, but a box with Fidelizer using Foobar, JRiver, or cPlay will at least get close.
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fishski13

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2012, 03:28:50 AM »

I still don't understand half of it but I'll eventually get there, lol.
I'm sure it's pretty simple.

I 'hunt' for RFI problems professionally now and then and can assure it is very difficult 'seeing' where the troubles come from when you don't have extremely expensive RFI receivers to show you where the problems MIGHT be coming from.

In general most equipment has a higher leakage current when connected to mains.
This is because mains has a Live wire and a Neutral wire.
The Neutral wire should not have any voltages with respect to ground, the Live wire (that's why it is called live) only has a voltage on it.

Transformers leak through capacitance between primary and secondary windings.
The bigger the surface (bigger power transformers) the more capacitance the higher the leakage.
The closer the primary and secondary winding (toroid = close, E and R core is wider apart) the higher the leakage, except when a 'shield' is used between the windings.
The reason why switching L and N in a transformer helps for HUM related leakage currents (not so much for RFI) is because in one case the N wire is closer to the secondary wires where the leakage is the least as there is no voltage present. When (by switching phase) this winding is connected to the L wire there is a high voltage and thus leakage present.
This is why it is 'important' the L (brown) and N (blue) wires of a mains transformer as this should lead to lowest leakage when connected correctly.

For SMPS it is very dependent on the circuit used and filtering applied.
No real guidelines here.

When the tutorial is followed the system should be the least susceptible to garbage on the mains.
i have a custom encapsulated/shielded TX from SumR arriving in the mail.  for optimal wiring layout and TX placement i specified that the exit of the primaries and secondaries be opposite.  does this mean that reversing the primaries wrt N and L will have no effect on any potential induced hum if both are separated by the diameter of theTX?  or am i reading this incorrectly?


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grev

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2012, 03:55:46 AM »

By all accounts, yes. I had been recommending the Vaunix Lab Brick to people which is the same basic idea, but the the iUSB promises a much lower noise power supply than what Vaunix is using, and it's designed specifically to be able to handle Y-type USB cables such as those from Ridge Street and Acoustic Revive that the Vaunix isn't. For the same price, I think it's a no brainer. The SoTM card costs almost twice as much, and out of the box it needs to draw from the computer's power supply which of course is not ideal. You could rig up a battery supply for it, or use a custom one or a LPS, but that's even more cost, and I'm not sure exactly how much benefit there is vs. the iUSB.

Again I feel like I should point out that if you're hunting RF and EMI on a general purpose computer that changes clock speeds, is running all kinds of programs and services, anti-virus, etc. you are kind of wasting your time. General purpose computers make for bad hifi music players. If you want the best sound, you want your computer to do essentially NOTHING but play music. Taking that to the extreme would be a dedicated JPlay box in hibernate/overdrive mode which literally does nothing but play music, but a box with Fidelizer using Foobar, JRiver, or cPlay will at least get close.
I'm about to retire my Macbook aluminium late 2008 with core 2 duo CPU that can't go turbo so I can delegate that to a music player purpose for sure!
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donunus

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2012, 04:31:19 AM »

Optical is the worst way to connect anything!

I would say that it really depends on the specific dac. Also from what I have observed, a basic cheap toslink cable makes less of a difference vs an expensive toslink cable than a cheap vs expensive coax cable. Hmm thats just an observation from my limited trials of a few random cables over a span of 20 years but I have never gone into the extreme high end when it comes to cables. Except for meets and shows like the CES, etc.... I have only had first hand experience with sub $100 cables though. I just wanted to spit that out there so take what I say with a grain of salt and a shot of whiskey LOL
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2012, 08:02:47 AM »

i have a custom encapsulated/shielded TX from SumR arriving in the mail.  for optimal wiring layout and TX placement i specified that the exit of the primaries and secondaries be opposite.  does this mean that reversing the primaries wrt N and L will have no effect on any potential induced hum if both are separated by the diameter of theTX?  or am i reading this incorrectly?

That would depend on how the transformer is constructed.
I realise I wasn't complete in the describing the shield in the transformer.
These aren't standard type of transformers.
I meant the screen is a separate layer of conductive material (that doesn't act as a short circuit winding) between the primary and secondary layer.
This layer must be connected to the common of the input filter and housing.

An encapsulated transformer is not different from any other transformer in an electrical sense.
A screened transformer (metal encapsulated) is normally (or should be) made from mu-metal and it's only purpose is to ensure no magnetic field lines (that could potentially induce small voltages in highly sensitive inputs) are present outside the transformer and should be present all around the transformer.

So to answer the question.
You still have to test for lowest leakage currents as they will be the same as with any unshielded transformer.

The best transformers (in this aspect) are R cores (or C cores), followed by E- core and the worst ones are the toroids.
In efficiency the best is toroid (and smallest in size) followed by R cores and then E cores.
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2012, 10:00:27 AM »

Optical is the worst way to connect anything!

I would say that it really depends on the specific dac. Also from what I have observed, a basic cheap toslink cable makes less of a difference vs an expensive toslink cable than a cheap vs expensive coax cable. Hmm thats just an observation from my limited trials of a few random cables over a span of 20 years but I have never gone into the extreme high end when it comes to cables. Except for meets and shows like the CES, etc.... I have only had first hand experience with sub $100 cables though. I just wanted to spit that out there so take what I say with a grain of salt and a shot of whiskey LOL

No, it's the worst. I2S is ideal, but is only really usable in short lengths. 75Ohm S/Pdif via BNC is generally the best, most practical solution overall. AES/EBU is fine, but can run into impedance mismatch problems, same with S/Pdif over RCA. Toslink is the worst. While it does break the electrical connection, the timing errors that it introduces are too large to ignore. ST glass fiber is better, but nobody really uses it anymore outside of Bel Canto.
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fishski13

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #28 on: December 23, 2012, 03:19:55 AM »

i have a custom encapsulated/shielded TX from SumR arriving in the mail.  for optimal wiring layout and TX placement i specified that the exit of the primaries and secondaries be opposite.  does this mean that reversing the primaries wrt N and L will have no effect on any potential induced hum if both are separated by the diameter of theTX?  or am i reading this incorrectly?

That would depend on how the transformer is constructed.
I realise I wasn't complete in the describing the shield in the transformer.
These aren't standard type of transformers.
I meant the screen is a separate layer of conductive material (that doesn't act as a short circuit winding) between the primary and secondary layer.
This layer must be connected to the common of the input filter and housing.

An encapsulated transformer is not different from any other transformer in an electrical sense.
A screened transformer (metal encapsulated) is normally (or should be) made from mu-metal and it's only purpose is to ensure no magnetic field lines (that could potentially induce small voltages in highly sensitive inputs) are present outside the transformer and should be present all around the transformer.

So to answer the question.
You still have to test for lowest leakage currents as they will be the same as with any unshielded transformer.

The best transformers (in this aspect) are R cores (or C cores), followed by E- core and the worst ones are the toroids.
In efficiency the best is toroid (and smallest in size) followed by R cores and then E cores.

makes sense.  i'll contact Richard at SumR for the details of the winding and take some measurements.  thanks!!!!  :)
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donunus

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #29 on: December 23, 2012, 03:29:07 AM »

No, it's the worst. I2S is ideal, but is only really usable in short lengths. 75Ohm S/Pdif via BNC is generally the best, most practical solution overall. AES/EBU is fine, but can run into impedance mismatch problems, same with S/Pdif over RCA. Toslink is the worst. While it does break the electrical connection, the timing errors that it introduces are too large to ignore. ST glass fiber is better, but nobody really uses it anymore outside of Bel Canto.

hmm then it could be system synergy with the speakers/cans because some dacs sound bloated when using coax instead of toslink.
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