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Author Topic: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?  (Read 24443 times)

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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #50 on: January 01, 2013, 02:06:44 PM »

DaveBSC: cool, I saw those in the thread posted in the OP. https://www.olimex.com/Products/Modules/Interface/USB-ISO/ right? is there any use making my own PSU for it? can I use it WITH a hub? or does that not make any sense? if there are any good DIY schematics for stuff I would love to try that :p I am just trying to cut costs though. not sure if I even have any noise but I kind of want to try things to optimize my computer audio. I have had big issues with my laptops usb ports... and do need a hub.

If you only want more additional USB ports with more and cleaner power, it is much simpler to get a USB hub and power it with an external low noise power supply (linear regulated psu or battery) and disable the +5V pin on the USB lead that connects to the PC. You should try to ensure that the external PSU can output enough current to equally power all the ports of the USB, ie, if the hub has 4 ports then your PSU must output at least 2Ah or more, the more the better.
Galvanic isolators like the Olimex aren't really necessary, in this situation, unless there's a ground loop or hum noise occuring in your setup. And this way you're not limited to 12Mbps data speed, which is a limitation of all isolators using the adum4160 chip.

Using such isolator before an USB hub (PC - USB isolator - USB Hub - devices) should be possible but because of the 12Mbps limitation, the data speed on each port of a USB hub could be much lower depending on the number of ports used.
Using such an isolator after the hub on the ODAC path would make sense in case of a ground loop, or if the USB hub is powered by the dirty PC VBus, or if the hub can not output enough current for the ODAC, in which cases the isolator should have an external low noise PSU connected and cut the incoming dirty +5V PC power.
If you're into DIY you might want to read this http://rockgrotto.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talk&action=print&thread=7327
But since the data path would be more crouded there could be a risk of degrading the signal quality and possibly increase jitter... just speculating...
Between any DAC and the PC the data path should be as short, simple and clean as possible.

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munch

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2013, 12:41:28 AM »

hmm yeah, this might get a bit overkill... :P battery pack could be the cheapest solution, and removing the power from the USB cable. I am going to read more about that then!
thanks a lot guys. let me know if there is anything more I should consider.
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #52 on: January 02, 2013, 08:30:47 AM »

Of course these solutions (except the mentioned isolator, see DaveBSC post) will do NOTHING against common mode garbage loops.
Not even when battery powered hubs are used and the +5V is interrupted.
Why ?
Because the common mode garbage travels equally well over the ground line as well as the +5V line and datalines.
The ground line (and datalines in a lesser degree) will still conduct the RFI garbage ground loop regardless of how clean it is powered UNLESS there is true isolation.

One should realise that isolators WILL break a physical electrical ground-loop but only attenuate RFI garbage marginally and would suggest to use clamp ferrites WITH these isolators (that should be battery fed or have a lin power supply and NOT cheap lightweight SMPS).
Don't do a single pass though a ferrite but get the clamping types (the ones you can open and close) with holes just big enough to fit 3 windings of the USB cable through it and do as much windings through it as possible.
a single pass winding is about 3 to 20x  LESS effective as when 3 to 5 windings are used.
More than 7 windings won't give better attenuation.
Make sure the clamp closes well and there is no widened air-gap between the two halves of the clamp.

Above is advice given based on actual performed RFI measurements (in the past on USB outputs) and will actually do something against common mode RFI which is the culprit in 99% of cases where troubles are found (mostly strange noises heard in the audio path) in conjunction with such isolators.

Be warned that it is often those cheap lightweight smaller SMPS that have bad or insufficient filtering (you know the ones that come free with every cheap device) that cause the MOST RFI garbage !
« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 08:42:20 AM by Solderdude »
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munch

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #53 on: January 02, 2013, 10:00:49 AM »

hmmmm hmm. I can assume most powered usb hubs come with cheap smps?
just so I am not reading it wrong, you are suggesting using a ferrite wound usb cable with a usb hub powered by battery or lin psu? does it make any sense to use one for the dac too?
thanks!
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #54 on: January 02, 2013, 10:24:30 AM »

Ferrites only 'help' if you are experiencing weird noises in the audio that is caused by RFI common mode garbage.
It is not easy to determine if noises are caused by audiofrequent groundloops or RFI without testing or measuring.
Fertrites can only attenuate RFI a certain amount of dBs which could, if the attenuation is enough to become too low to cause problems (below a certain treshold it has no influence anymore, that treshold differs).
Groundloops where garbage is in the audible range (or just above it and 'mirrors' into audio by interference) will NOT be addressed by ferrites at all... NO influence in the audible range but only above 100kHz.
These loops can only be broken by isolators as suggested by DaveBSC.

For a total package you need a real isolator between the PC (or source with high amounts of garbage that causes audible problems) and the DAC.
Such an isolator would still conduct RFI common mode garbage which potentially COULD cause problems as well under certain circumstances.
To lower that the ferrites will help.

So Isolator + ferrite between PC and isolator (preferably battery or lin supply fed) + (optional) a ferrite between isolator and DAC.

Ferrites alone on USB will likely do very little to nothing IF one is plagued with audible noises in the audio frequency groundloop.

The audio frequency groundloop could also be 'broken' by powering the DAC via an isolation transformer.
These transformers do nothing against RFI ground loops.

When you are not experiencing any weird noises I see no reason to apply all these costly measures myself.

So groundloops exist in 2 forms, DC to audible frequent loops and RFI loops.
If only 1 bothers you address that one, to be safe address both.

Alas, I cannot comment on subjective improvements when these things are applied because this is not my area of expertise.  ;)
Note: the mentioned isolators do not go beyond 24/96 as mentioned by DaveBSC.
An option to get rid of a LF loop, if that is plaguing you (but is far from ideal) is to feed the DAC+ amp from an isolation transformer instead.
There will still be RFI garbage and audiogarbage through the USB but the impedance (and thus current) of that audible frequency groundloop is higher so induced currents are smaller.
It is these induced currents that are audible.

example of such a clamp:
http://nl.farnell.com/tdk/zcat2235-1030a-bk/ferrite-cable-clamp-filter-100/dp/1844071
Note: this is NOT the one you will need and have to find one with the proper inner diameter depending on the used USB cable and number of windings (between 3 and 7)

example of multiple windings through a ferrite:


« Last Edit: January 02, 2013, 11:15:52 AM by Solderdude »
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #55 on: January 02, 2013, 11:19:48 AM »

I am wondering... ::)

Does someone know of J-test results (or THD) of DAC's that are improved in the PS area or clock circuit with before and after mod measurements and with or without USB groundloop breakers ?
Alas I do not have the equipment nor interest in this matter to do these tests.
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munch

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #56 on: January 02, 2013, 11:35:47 AM »

yeah. I kind of feel a bit bad for my short replies, heh.
hmm. well as I was saying I just wanted a good USB hub setup so that I could use my ODAC and external HDD and charging my iPad... while compromising sound as little as possible. I haven't actually tried it with the laptop yet, so I might have good sound though if I add a hub that may change.
but yeah as long as I am happy I should perhaps not look into changes... will report back when I have the laptop.

so summary is, a good usb hub psu is expensive, smps powered one might even sound worse than just using laptops usb? and there are no noticably better choices around $50?

thanks a lot for the information, hope it will not be needed though!
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #57 on: January 02, 2013, 11:46:34 AM »

Cheap SMPS are very high in noise and in DC ripple. Not good. If the cheap hub uses a 5V supply and passes that pretty much straight through to the output, the results won't be great. Worse than the laptop port? Hard to say. Depends on whether the Laptop is running on battery or AC power and other factors.

My suggestion would be to combine the isolator with battery power for the Vbus supply.
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munch

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #58 on: January 02, 2013, 11:58:56 AM »

yeah I figured. I haven't bought a hub yet but safe to assume they all come with smps right. battery is completely dead so it runs from the outlet. :(
I am willing to look into cheap DIY psu if possible, but I think since nothing was mentioned earlier that is a no-go :P
so isolator and battery power for cheapest solution in terms of sound... yeah. batteries hmm.
thanks again!
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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #59 on: January 02, 2013, 01:42:43 PM »

Groundloops where garbage is in the audible range (or just above it and 'mirrors' into audio by interference) will NOT be addressed by ferrites at all... NO influence in the audible range but only above 100kHz.
These loops can only be broken by isolators as suggested by DaveBSC.

Or by a ground lift switch built in your audio equipement, for example my upcoming Violectric V100 amp has a ground lift switch that I intend to use in case I hear any weird hum noise so I don't need an isolator. :P
Hopefully I don't get an electric shock by doing so...


When you are not experiencing any weird noises I see no reason to apply all these costly measures myself.

I agree, in such case I would say that dealing with the +5V power line should be in first order. FWIR it seems that the major issue in USB connections is the dirty PC VBus power line contaminating the D+/- lines throughout the lenght of the cable because of noise and DC ripple of the SMPS psus as DaveBSC has been saying. I've posted links in the first post where one can read numerous accounts of sonic inprovements when the power line is isolated form the data lines or when the power line is feeded from a cleaner psu than the PC.
It seems that the power line is the biggest jitter inducer in USB connections as it actually modulates and corrupts the data fidelity and output. Ground loops, common mode noise and RFI, on the contrary, don't seem to have as deeper effect on the data itself and mostly cause unrelated and distint noises which can be addressed by 'external solutions'... correct me if I'm wrong though, this is only FWIR...


So groundloops exist in 2 forms, DC to audible frequent loops and RFI loops.
If only 1 bothers you address that one, to be safe address both.

Glad that you clarified this, I was starting to get a bit confused with your explanation.  ;)


I am wondering... ::)

Does someone know of J-test results (or THD) of DAC's that are improved in the PS area or clock circuit with before and after mod measurements and with or without USB groundloop breakers ?
Alas I do not have the equipment nor interest in this matter to do these tests.

I would like to see this to, in one of the links of the first page (computer audiophile) there is a link for some measurements but they are non-conclusive, the explanations by some experts are much more informative.
I'm still searching...
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