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Author Topic: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?  (Read 24443 times)

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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2012, 02:03:47 PM »

"...objectivist/subjectivist pirates conciliator Island..."

Can't belive I wrote this crap, what on hell was I thinking?   :'(
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DaveBSC

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #11 on: December 21, 2012, 02:30:32 PM »

You might want to think about building a dedicated computer server like the one described in the link. General purpose computers are ill-suited to hifi for the most part. You may get a minimal improvement from those filters, but you'll lose 24/192 streaming ability, you need HiSpeed for that.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/494-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-topangas/
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #12 on: December 21, 2012, 02:34:04 PM »

Does "RFI" correlate to Radio Frequency Interference, EMI at very high frequencies?
Yes it means all sort of signals that are high frequent enough to be transmitted through the ether.
This depends on frequency and cable length.

So I reckon that both DC ripple and RFI are caused by the PC SMPS functional architecture, correct?
Yes and no.
The power supply is the cause of the common mode signals, those signals are travelling in phase on data-power-ground lines opposite the real/life ground and DC ripple on the 5V line and datalines, is caused by loads of CPU, gates, HD, memory e.t.c. and are not common mode but differential.
They exist between the ground and other lines.

Can I minimize the EMI effects on a USB cable by shielding it with some material?
You can only lower a certain frequency spectrum in the common mode signal in amplitude by placing ferrites around the cable.
Not a single pass as you normally see but 2 or 3 windings THOUGH that ferrite. Clamp ferrites exist that can open and close.
These are NOT miracle workers though.
Data speed is NOT affected by ferrites.

I have no idea what kind of PSU is inside my desktop PC, I think it's just a generic one probably SMPS.

Yes

But replacing the PC PSU is out of question to me, at this moment.
So what is that I could possibly do to minimize all the nasty effects on the following system?

a few things that involve either a multimeter or a voltage finder.
I will get back to it later... little time now.

PC USB - ODAC RCA - Violectric V100 - headphones.
The PC and V100 PSUs would be connected on the same power strip... is this elegible to create a ground loop?

very likely, unless everything sounds good and clean there is little to worry.
Only when you experience sounds in the silent parts of audio.

It is mentioned that most USB interfaces are powered up by the PC USB bus, did I understand correctly?
Yes

If I were to connect a portable battery pack to one of these isolators wouldn't I have a separate power supply for my USB Dac interface?
Yes but voor RFI it does not help much as that simply passes through those devices.
They are very good for DC loops and hum loops as well as for isolation (medical) but for RFI they simply are transparent.
No matter WHAT the vendors say.

I see that one of these solutions does not guaranty separate data and power lines, would it make no difference then?
Neither of these solutions supports High speed data rate(480Mbps) but I don't think that's very relevant for audio playback...
480 is not relevant unless you have high speed 16 channel WAV's e.t.c.
Only breaking the 5V power line does NOTHING to lower RFI it only lowers differential garbage on the power line.
It won't do anything about garbage on the datalines either.

And what about Jitter?
"Jitter is the undesired deviation from true periodicity of an assumed periodic signal in electronics and telecommunications, often in relation to a reference clock source." From Wikipedia, I love this website!
IF your DAC has a feature of jitter elimination than that doesn't matter.
I am sure lots of people with better hearing than mine will disagree.

I've read that EMI can cause it, so I reckon that most USB ports from most PCs output data with some degree of jitter?
This seems to be an issue that derives from other external influences like the other issues mentioned above.
Yes, it potentially could with certain gear.

So it seems reasonable to me that by addressing the above issues first, I can prevent the formation of Jitter in the Data stream sent to the Dac... at least to some extent...
And even if there is still Jitter at the Dac input, it will be mitigated if the Dac has some internal reclocking feature built in... so I guesss that i shouldn't worry to much about Jitter with the ODAC... (Hope I'm making sense I have no idea what I'm talking about :P)
I wouldn't either but many will.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2013, 10:33:41 AM by Solderdude »
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #13 on: December 21, 2012, 03:16:16 PM »

How to get the lowest amount of interference in your audio system.  headbang
This goes  for all analog as well as digital and analog and is based on asymmetry in power supplies be them SMPS (switch mode) or linear (transformer)

Remove all interlinks so you have ONLY separate equipment.
Note that equipment that is double isolated differs from those that have safety ground.
Also note that safety ground is NOT a the same as  RFI ground !
In general all safety grounds are extremely lousy RFI grounds.

You will need a voltage finder.
I use a sort-of screwdriver tester designed to show Live an Neutral.
Not the kind with a neonlight in it but this one can show voltages in a few coarse steps.
Another option is to use a multimeter.
It should have AC voltage AND AC current measurement capabilities.

Connect a mains fed audio component to mains (3 pin to 3 pin socket) and hold the tester against the RCA or other connector (the screen or common).
OR multimeter:
1 testlead to a safety ground or something you KNOW is REALLY grounded.
Other testlead of the meter to the RCA shield or other connector.
Set the meter to ACV(oltage) first and choose the highest range.
Set the meter lower when needed.
Note the voltage.
Now set the meter to AC A(mpere = current.
Same testleads on the same pins/conditions
Choose a setting of several 100mA (10A settings won’t show anything).
Go to lower settings to read a proper value.
Note that current.

Now, and this is NOT possible in certain countries, plug the mains connector in the  mains outlet but phase reversed (rotated 180 degrees).
Redo the measurements and compare the results.

Mark the lowest voltage/current setting on the mains socket and mains plug so you can always find the lowest current.

Quick and dirty method only your finger and sometimes a metal surface needed.
Plug in the single audio component and make sure it is on something isolated (plastic or something)
Now rub your finger over a metal cover or put a metal plate on top of the audiocomponent and connect that to the shield of the RCA connector with some wire.
If you ‘feel’ your fingertip (where you touch the metal) to ‘bounce/vibrate’ a bit you will know there is current leakage.
When you feel nothing the leakage is very small.
Again reverse the polarity on the mains plug (rotate the plug 180 degrees) and test again.
Note the position of the plug opposite a mark on the mains socket for the lowest ‘ripple/hum/bounce/vibration’ in the finger tips.

Note that equipment with figure- 8 mains connections also need to be marked as these can easily be set in the wrong position.

When all equipment is tested and set for lowest leakage current connect them with clean interconnects (clean the RCA’s too if dirty/oxidised) and this will be the best situation.

Those with weird sounds or plagued with  ticks from external  equipment e.t.c. or faint hum or whizzing noises may find their equipment to be totally silent.
If still plagued with unwanted signals then one can resort to ferrites (do little if nothing mostly), mains filters (may also worsen things !) or separation transformers.
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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2012, 03:31:07 PM »


So I reckon that both DC ripple and RFI are caused by the PC SMPS functional architecture, correct?
Yes and no.
The power supply is the cause of the common mode signals )signals travelling in phase on data-power-ground lines opposite the real/life ground and DC ripple on the 5V line and datalines, is caused by loads of CPU, gates, HD, memory e.t.c. and are not common mode but differential.
They exist between the ground and other lines.


When you say common mode signals here you mean EMI or these are uncorrelated?
And can we determine by the type of power supply functional architecture if common mode signals/interference is likelly to be present?

You might want to think about building a dedicated computer server like the one described in the link. General purpose computers are ill-suited to hifi for the most part. You may get a minimal improvement from those filters, but you'll lose 24/192 streaming ability, you need HiSpeed for that.

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/content/494-computer-audiophile-pocket-server-c-p-s-v3-topangas/

It's an interesting alternative indeed, can't justify it right now but should be worth loking at in the future.
Thank's for pointing it out.
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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #15 on: December 21, 2012, 03:46:25 PM »

Thanks for that tutorial Solderdude.
I still don't understand half of it but I'll eventually get there, lol.
I'm sure it's pretty simple.
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2012, 07:41:56 PM »

When you say common mode signals here you mean EMI or these are uncorrelated?

Common mode could be anything (from DC to THz) as long as that signal is present on both the screen and signal wire in equal phase and amplitude.
EMI (Electro Magnetic Interference) also called RFI (Radio Frequency Interference is not by definition common mode but often is.


Can we determine by the type of power supply functional architecture if common mode signals/interference is likely to be present?
Switch mode power supplies usually emit RF. How much depends on design and input and output filters.
They should have to comply to certain rules (depending on the region and legislation and application) but not all do or don't any more once connected to other equipment.
Switch mode usually has higher leakage currents by design than linear power supplies and in another frequency band.
Not all switch mode supplies are behaving badly.
SMPS intended for medical use for instance have lower leakage currents.
It's the immunity of the equipment that defines if it gives trouble or not.

So amplitude, frequency band and energy level as well as PCB layout, filtering inside, wiring and interaction between the equipment determines if it becomes audible.
If it's not audible it doesn't matter if it is there or not.

RFI is all around us everywhere. In most cases it doesn't give any problems though.
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Solderdude

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2012, 08:26:20 PM »

I still don't understand half of it but I'll eventually get there, lol.
I'm sure it's pretty simple.

I 'hunt' for RFI problems professionally now and then and can assure it is very difficult 'seeing' where the troubles come from when you don't have extremely expensive RFI receivers to show you where the problems MIGHT be coming from.

In general most equipment has a higher leakage current when connected to mains.
This is because mains has a Live wire and a Neutral wire.
The Neutral wire should not have any voltages with respect to ground, the Live wire (that's why it is called live) only has a voltage on it.

Transformers leak through capacitance between primary and secondary windings.
The bigger the surface (bigger power transformers) the more capacitance the higher the leakage.
The closer the primary and secondary winding (toroid = close, E and R core is wider apart) the higher the leakage, except when a 'shield' is used between the windings.
The reason why switching L and N in a transformer helps for HUM related leakage currents (not so much for RFI) is because in one case the N wire is closer to the secondary wires where the leakage is the least as there is no voltage present. When (by switching phase) this winding is connected to the L wire there is a high voltage and thus leakage present.
This is why it is 'important' the L (brown) and N (blue) wires of a mains transformer as this should lead to lowest leakage when connected correctly.

For SMPS it is very dependent on the circuit used and filtering applied.
No real guidelines here.

When the tutorial is followed the system should be the least susceptible to garbage on the mains.
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kkl10

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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2012, 09:07:25 PM »

I'm in Portugal, ~230/50Hz mains I think, the outlet sockets here are the 2 pins type and the plugs are either type C or F.
I think the one of the power strips where my PC, screen monitor and amp plug in is the type F.
I guess I could try to invert phase on outlet mains with this kind of plug?
Just to see if there would be any influence in sound when I get my new setup up and running...
I'm not sure if there would be any issue by doing this?
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Re: How to get clean audio from the PC to a USB powered Dac?
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2012, 10:21:58 PM »

So... that IFI thing is good?
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