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Author Topic: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread  (Read 12181 times)

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madaboutaudio

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #70 on: August 29, 2015, 09:09:24 PM »

I don't think buying a vintage (sd or r2r) dac is worthwhile especially in 2015, you have tons of really good sounding and high price to performance dacs in the market.

Vintage dacs don't have modern support for USB and may have problems with bad capacitors or oxidation. Also the electrical engineering measuring tools and high performance DSP/FPGA we have now is something that don't exist  back then.

Why buy something vintage when you have good modern r2r dacs from Schiit and Audio-gd with good warranty and support.
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paras1te

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #71 on: August 30, 2015, 01:45:44 AM »

Vintage dacs don't have modern support for USB ...
Yes, well-done USB is quite a bit better than SPDIF. Yet folks that are so enraptured with this vintage R2R bug that's going around seem not to comment (or notice) on that. Indeed, even when the vintage (outboard) D/A's first came to market, many reviewers noted the Achilles Heel (SPDIF).
It's possible that vintage D/A are so good, even by today's stds, that even with the SPIDF setback, they edge out modern D-S ...
... hmmm ... will it be multi/R2R + SPDIF or D-S + USB ???
But what about the other gorilla in the room: high-end CDPs (Krell, Naim, Meridian)? ... they have R2R but are not afflicted with the SPDIF issue.  Yet I don't see them mentioned very often nowadays ... CD too old-fashioned ... or is it "yuch...optical discs -- they can't be as good as jitter-free Flash playback"???
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haywood

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #72 on: August 30, 2015, 02:34:00 AM »

Yes, well-done USB is quite a bit better than SPDIF. Yet folks that are so enraptured with this vintage R2R bug that's going around...
You had me until "well-done USB".

Modern r2r dacs that are competitive with the best vintage dacs are a relatively recent phenomenon, and this thread predates most of them. I wouldn't spend a lot on one, it'd be kinda foolish to drop $1500 on a Gen V when Gumby is cheaper, has a warranty and ranks higher on the messiah-o-meter, but I wouldn't discourage anyone if they got a great deal on an old Theta, Spectral, Transdac, etc.
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paras1te

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #73 on: August 30, 2015, 04:52:31 AM »

Modern r2r dacs that are competitive with the best vintage dacs are a relatively recent phenomenon, and this thread predates most of them.
You can't really make a bold claim like that with only Schiit products as examples, dude.
I do realize that this forum/site is equivalent of a Schiit fanboyz network, but ya'll do 'em no favors by unexamined day-in/day-out manufacturer grandstanding!
What Schiit is doing -- using modern "multis" like AD5781, which was not designed for audio -- has still to be accepted by the audio community at large.
Bottom line: too early to tell.
And we may never be able to tell ... why? Because the latest D-S chip design (optimized for audio), like ESS or AKM models, are also progressing.
The more attention this area of audio science receives the better -- that gets the decision-making CEOs of semiconductor firms to add more funding to audio R&D.
In a way, the resurgence of vinyl puts the same pressure on DAC manufs ...
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bixby

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #74 on: August 30, 2015, 05:03:04 AM »

I do think that the Schiit designs have been accepted, no waiting for a tribunal to concur.  I have heard 3 of them in a number of sessions and was impressed.  And a number of well regarded members (by me of course) have bought or placed orders.  That being said, I know a good friend who just bought a Gungnir DS and it will be replacing his $12k dac bridge combo.  Of course he has no idea of the MB Gungnir nor does he care.  He likes the Hydra Z and the Regular Gungnir so much.

And THAT is what it is all about, yes?

As for the CEOs of chip companies, they are no different than any CEO, they are just looking to sell millions of chips to whomever for whatever application as long as it brings profits.   They have no allegiance to what we want.
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frenchbat

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #75 on: August 30, 2015, 08:23:23 AM »

Paras1te do you have a point to make or are you just raving on like a mad man ?

Seems like you need to get the hang of this place before going on like this. CDPs are discussed, usb vs coax vs aes vs I2S are discussed, TT are being discussed, and you seem to have missed that completely.
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paras1te

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #76 on: August 30, 2015, 09:11:09 AM »

Paras1te do you have a point to make or are you just raving on like a mad man ?

Seems like you need to get the hang of this place before going on like this. CDPs are discussed, usb vs coax vs aes vs I2S are discussed, TT are being discussed, and you seem to have missed that completely.
Oh ... uh ... I'm ... uh... sorry ... if I ...uh ... like, so totally, like offended someone, toots ;)

About those other PUTATIVE discussions ... well, it's easy to toss a few UN-LINKED references like that.
But guess what, toots ... youz don'tz defend the troopz shooting blanks.

Oh, and ... ... uh one more thing ...


(luv your avatar, frenchy... xxx, Miley)
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paras1te

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #77 on: August 30, 2015, 09:26:49 AM »

As for the CEOs of chip companies, they are no different than any CEO, they are just looking to sell millions of chips to whomever for whatever application as long as it brings profits.   They have no allegiance to what we want.
Yup ... it's all about $$ and corporate greed. Look at the big 3, or 2008 meltdown.
Got it!
Nah ... CEOs don't own Mark-Levinsons or Jadis. They could care less about low-grade chips in THEIR gear ...
...and now we return to more Democracy Now! where Amy Goodman will talk to UAW leaders about improving worker wages.
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Priidik

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #78 on: August 30, 2015, 09:31:15 AM »

multis" like AD5781, which was not designed for audio -- has still to be accepted by the audio community at large.

Dacs with S-D chips have been accepted at large and how good are these?
Some are acceptable, but most are sub-bar performing.
On top of everything let's say S-D has potential, but look what it takes to squeeze it out. 8+chips in parallel per channel in some good sounding units, manufacturing costs perhaps going over some good r-2r retail price for maybe roughly the same performance.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2015, 02:36:57 PM by Priidik »
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madaboutaudio

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #79 on: August 30, 2015, 10:21:08 AM »

D-S done right can sound really decently good. Many have high praises for Schiit Gungnir V1, Nad M51 and Matrix X-sabre.

However there's a reason why Schiit introduced the R2R upgrade for the Gungnir. Because R2R done right will exceed what D-S can offer but will cost you at least 1.5 to 2x more in price. Take for example Audio-gd's NBF-7 and Master 7. Both have exact same chassis, powersupply and etc. Only difference is the DSP+8xPCM1704UK vs ES9018S.

S-D Modulation is a lossy/approximation of the original values.
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