I think anything that's no longer in
How old does it need to be to be "vintage"?
How old does it need to be to be "vintage"?
The Vintage DAC Bible
http://vasiltech.narod.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm
If we think there is correlation between DAC chips and good sound (PCM63?) that list could easily be narrowed down.
Austin,
What do you use as transport to these vintage goodies? I can attest to the Offramp + Spectral SDR2000 as being one of the most seamless, liquid and tonally rich experiences I have had.
I have a 2nd setup coming in today, a Lampi 5, with i2s configured to the Offramp pinout. I'll need a 2nd transport for the Spectral. Have you tinkered much with transports? Short of another Offramp, I can't tell which road to take.
Austin,
What do you use as transport to these vintage goodies? I can attest to the Offramp + Spectral SDR2000 as being one of the most seamless, liquid and tonally rich experiences I have had.
I have a 2nd setup coming in today, a Lampi 5, with i2s configured to the Offramp pinout. I'll need a 2nd transport for the Spectral. Have you tinkered much with transports? Short of another Offramp, I can't tell which road to take.
If you are looking for a cheaper alternative, try the CIA Transient MKII. Though I haven't heard one myself, some have said it is pretty good. Adding the external PSU will probably benefit slightly as well.
Thanks Eric, I'll look into it.
*won't need i2s as the Spectral doesn't have the input
Hello people,
I would like to thank evanft for starting this topic so we can have a more focused discussion on vintage DACs.
I just repost what I asked in the general DAC topic. These devices are very rare in where I live but I know someone who own a Parasound 1100HD but the thing is it has been modified pretty heavily. I'm not sure about the technical details but its analogue stage has been replaced with a discrete part and he also say that all the capacitors have been replaced with newer ones. I think he's upgrading to the new Hugo TT so I may have a chance to take it off his hands.
If it helps, IIRC this is the original sales ad: http://www.head-fi.org/t/548272/fs-modded-parasound-dac-1100-hd
What do you guys think, would it be a good investment? I currently have an Accuphase DC-901 DAC so maybe this vintage DAC can provide an alternative sound.
As always, I thank you for your advice.
Regards,
Jeremiah
It would depend on the price. $250-$300 would probably be good if the mods are well done and actually help the sound. But then again I'm kinda against paying more than $500 for one of these vintage DACs, so maybe my perception of its value is off.
Well, at least the Theta Gen V isn't using anything that is truly unobtanium, like Ultraanalog chips, and if you nudge Schiit the right way, you may be able to get them to help if something does go wrong. $1200-1400 is probably OK considering market prices.
PCM63 are available depends on which one K, KII or Y or P
Not sure about fakes, how can you make a fake working dac chip
Parasound D/AC-1100 w/ gustard u12 - My current favorite dac. Huge, but doesn't get hot. Uses 2 PCM63 chips (mine are upgraded with K grade). Extracts a ton of micro and macro detail from recordings. I never thought that the hd600s were so capable of scaling up so high. This dac has been the most significant upgrade for the past year. Aside from the detail retrieval, this dac has fantastic imaging and better soundstaging compared to the gungnir. While the bass doesn't quite hit as hard as the gungnir, it is much more detailed, well extended, and rumbles deeper. While I wouldn't exactly call the treble smooth, it is not harsh in any way. I feel like this is what a vintage R2R dac sounds like.
Marv:
Need a good tube amp for my HD800 and Yggy. Have the BH Crack and my one and hopefully only ZD prototype. What in the EC stable would you recommend or should I wait?
There's stuff coming out. Maybe the upcoming ZD Super.Actually, how much do I need ? :)
I bought an Angstrom 200 DAC/Preamp, designed by Mike Moffat. Does any know what kind of chip this uses? Is it R2R?
Nice pickup! I keep considering picking one up myself.
The setup of the Angstrom 200 is...well...a bit complex. It employs both R2R and Multi-Bit chips (DAC8143 & CS4328-KP).
It uses 6x daisy chained AD DAC8143 chips (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/DAC8143.pdf), which are 12-bit R2R. Then it uses 3x Crystal (Cirrus) CS4328-KP chips (http://www.wolumen53.com/pdf/CS4328-KP_Crystal.pdf), 18-bit /multibit Delta-Sigma.
Nice pickup! I keep considering picking one up myself.
The setup of the Angstrom 200 is...well...a bit complex. It employs both R2R and Multi-Bit chips (DAC8143 & CS4328-KP).
It uses 6x daisy chained AD DAC8143 chips (http://www.analog.com/media/en/technical-documentation/data-sheets/DAC8143.pdf), which are 12-bit R2R. Then it uses 3x Crystal (Cirrus) CS4328-KP chips (http://www.wolumen53.com/pdf/CS4328-KP_Crystal.pdf), 18-bit /multibit Delta-Sigma.
AV, meaning to ask you this...youmentionedthat some mods to the Adcom 600 really help. Do you know what they are? Thanks
Agreed. PCM1702 and PCM63 > PCM1704.
Upgrade Summary - Total 54 parts upgraded
-PCM56P-K grade chips x2 - classic NOS Dac sound and increased extension
-R-Core x1- increased impact and clarity across the spectrum
-Jupiter Caps x6- incredible lush textured sound but still clear presentation throughout
-ELNA Silmic and Silmic II x25 - electrolytic caps throughout - sound stage depth/width
-Shinkoh Tantalum resistors x6 - transformed the Dac into a different beast, now I can hear the harmonics of the tube. The music swings as it should, shimmer and sheen without glare. Shinkohs seem to remove the electronics from the music.
-Schottky Diodes x8- enhanced the character of the Shinkoh resistors a must have to get the full potential of Shinkoh
-Auricaps x5 - improved texture throughout the frequency range
-Hi-Fi Tuning Supreme fuse x1- provided more energy and impact
Misc. Tweaks
Silver Power Cord with Furutech ends vs. a standard copper 12ga cord. The Silver cord was a bit brighter and the copper cord gave more of an organic textural sound. Liked copper better.
Black Diamond Racing cones both ways, the low-end texture was gone and the high-end details stood out more. This took away the rich tubey character imo so I decided to go without the cones.
1.5" thick wood platform under gave me a nice solid foundation to the lows which seemed to enhance the low-end texture.
Small weight on top tightened up the sound throughout the spectrum a must try for everything imo just to listen for a benefit.
Removed caps [C5 and C25] which are only used for the "stability of the circuit under critical conditions" the sound became thin sounding so I put them both back. Edit: with the new r-core in place, removing these is a MUST, with them in place the sound is severely constrained.
Bypassed the fuse with a piece of copper solid core wire. Nice improvement with overall speed and impact, was too chicken to leave it in place and returned the fuse. I might put the wire back in place though.
I don't understand the CONTEXT of this thread...
Is it about stand-alone D/A processors, or the DAC chip (IC) itself?
ahoy Maybe you should read the first post. http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2278.msg62421.html#msg62421 (http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,2278.msg62421.html#msg62421) facepalmThat was the FIRST post I read, toots ;)
Vintage dacs don't have modern support for USB ...Yes, well-done USB is quite a bit better than SPDIF. Yet folks that are so enraptured with this vintage R2R bug that's going around seem not to comment (or notice) on that. Indeed, even when the vintage (outboard) D/A's first came to market, many reviewers noted the Achilles Heel (SPDIF).
Yes, well-done USB is quite a bit better than SPDIF. Yet folks that are so enraptured with this vintage R2R bug that's going around...You had me until "well-done USB".
Modern r2r dacs that are competitive with the best vintage dacs are a relatively recent phenomenon, and this thread predates most of them.You can't really make a bold claim like that with only Schiit products as examples, dude.
Paras1te do you have a point to make or are you just raving on like a mad man ?Oh ... uh ... I'm ... uh... sorry ... if I ...uh ... like, so totally, like offended someone, toots ;)
Seems like you need to get the hang of this place before going on like this. CDPs are discussed, usb vs coax vs aes vs I2S are discussed, TT are being discussed, and you seem to have missed that completely.
As for the CEOs of chip companies, they are no different than any CEO, they are just looking to sell millions of chips to whomever for whatever application as long as it brings profits. They have no allegiance to what we want.Yup ... it's all about $$ and corporate greed. Look at the big 3, or 2008 meltdown.
multis" like AD5781, which was not designed for audio -- has still to be accepted by the audio community at large.
(click to show/hide)
S-D Modulation is a lossy/approximation of the original values.
So is R-2R.
This technique has found increasing use in modern electronic components such as converters, frequency synthesizers, switched-mode power supplies and motor controllers, primarily because of its cost efficiency and reduced circuit complexity.[1]
The linearity problems with R2R is due to resistor matching and thermal/electrical issues and not related to mathematical/algorithm approximation like Sigma Delta.
Here outlines the problem with Delta Modulation(Sigma Delta Modulation is a derivative/improvement of delta modulation, with additional feedback/comparator & oversampling to improve full scale/slope output):
(http://www.strymon.net/wp-content/uploads/deltaModSig_outlines.png)
I read somewhere R2R DAC/ADC only works well to a certain frequency(up to 3 Mhz or so) , anything above in MHz to GHz, then S-D/D-S DAC/ADC makes more sense.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delta-sigma_modulation
The issue with Sigma Delta(especially high order sigma delta) is it's using a complex form of feedback mechanism to maintain it's stability. Most Music Signals will stay within stable conditions, but some forms of music instrument(those with rapidly changing loudness/tones) can expose the weakness of Sigma Delta like French Horns and Obode.
You can achieve high dynamic range/SNR with high order Sigma delta that looks good on measurements(i.e. ES9018S). But does it sound good/right(tonally/timing) to audiophiles is another thing all together.
I got tired of this discussion on the other forum! I'll see if it's a bit less evasive (and effusive) here.
It basically seems to come down to trying to determine what this elusive difference is, between the two techs, that makes many discerning listeners prefer one technology, over another. Remember, these discerning listeners have picked out the technology of the conversion process, as the main factor. (Although I've never seen anyone discount the importance of implementation.)
Why do they do this?
My incredibly simplistic understanding is that the DS process uses lots of approximations, and processes them very quickly, making it more susceptible to any inaccuracies (perhaps caused by the limitations and imprecisions in the hardware).
Whereas R2R uses a much simpler and real time process that is less susceptible to any imprecisions caused by the hardware.
And for the record, I'll go for sound over measurement, every time.
This IMO, is not fine. DS AFAIK no more approximates stuff than the R-2R does. It just easier to understand R-2R than DS because R-2R is equivalent to a bunch of binary additions. D-S is not.
Furthermore, DS process things at an oversampled rate because it requires bandwidth to move stuff out of the audio band. Which in turn makes it good for relatively slow conversions, but not great for applications that require Gbps conversions.
Is jitter potentially a bigger problem for DS?
Where does audio rate, as a far as speed is concerned?
It's a mater of finding out if there is a difference in performance and showing up with valid and real data.
Certainly there are are good sigma delta dacs out there. AD1955(Bricasti M1) or AKM4399(Gungnir) or Matrix X-sabre(ES9018S) or Geekout V2(ES9018AQ2M/K2M) or the NAD M51(propriety sigma delta).But Yggdrasil is a PREMIUM dac with lotsa stuff (improvements) OTHER THAN THE DAC CHIP.
However these dacs are certainly not nearing Yggdrasil or MSB Analog kind of performance.
Go listen to one of the good R2R dacs for yourself. Measurements and Specifications are only part of the story, the key performance benchmark of an audiophile grade dac is level of sensory enjoyment you get out of it(subjective)."Measurements and Specifications [as known to human science mid-2015] are only part of the story". Science and metrics will improve, and parameters will be added to the growing list of tracked specs. In the end, it may not matter ... if you sample enough in the A/D process, you don't need fancy D/A. That's essentially the principle behind DSD; Google "The Best DAC is no DAC".
Anyone has an opinion on AD1862 based units?
Anyone has an opinion on AD1862 based units?They were one of the module DACs for the aforementioned Counterpoint DA-10 (see the audio-database link in that post).
Tomorrow I will receive r2r . Four Burr-Brown PCM 63P-K 20 bit,push-pull for each channel.Lets see how it goes.brand/model ?
Parasound hd 1600
Heard a heavily modded Audio Alchemy with a tube IV/output stage.
diyinhk.com has AD1862 kits for $99USD
The one that was for Sale in North Europ (I don't remember where precisely) ?
THis one ? http://www.finn.no/finn/torget/annonse?finnkode=61874898&searchclickthrough=true
Are you serious or kidding?
This is what I had in mind. I want a throw-around dac for gaming :)
I want a throw-around dac for gaming
Are you serious or kidding?I'm serious. Gaming also benefits from good chain. Though Yggy etc level is obvious waste on gaming.
HiFiMeDiY (http://hifimediy.com/DACs/ready-made-dacs)? Buy a couple of their cheaper ones. it won't hurt your wallet too much if you stamp on one while you are throwing it around.I'd rather build something, or give up and buy a Go V2.
I'd rather build something, or give up and buy a Go V2.
....................
I'd rather build something, or give up and buy a Go V2.