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Author Topic: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread  (Read 12181 times)

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ultrabike

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #90 on: August 31, 2015, 04:55:46 AM »


Is jitter potentially a bigger problem for DS?


Where does audio rate, as a far as speed is concerned?

Jitter? Not in particular. That I think is more of a clock issue which would be common ground for both designs. In fact, some high resolution Jitter Attenuators rely on simple delta sigma approaches.

Audio rate? I think both should be able to handle 192k fine.

It's a mater of finding out if there is a difference in performance and showing up with valid and real data. I may try to procure one of those QA400 thingys Merv has to look myself into it. But no money for that this year for me. Sorry about that :(

But even then. I think the QA400 thingy is DS based too. So I dunno.
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BassDigger

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #91 on: August 31, 2015, 05:07:25 AM »

It's a mater of finding out if there is a difference in performance and showing up with valid and real data.

And there we have the crux of the issue; What data? What are you going to measure?
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Anaxilus

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #92 on: August 31, 2015, 05:09:45 AM »

Yes. What measurement indicates pretty much every sigma delta DAC to be grainier and rougher in treble than R2R DACs? Let's look there or find it first rather than beating around the bush.
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ultrabike

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #93 on: August 31, 2015, 05:18:52 AM »

If it is the delta sigma accumulator running out of juice as previously described, I guess one could pulse a bunch high amplitude band limited but relatively high slope pulses and see what comes out.

You got some ideas Mike?
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madaboutaudio

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #94 on: August 31, 2015, 06:21:51 AM »

On the topic of sigma delta stability, loop filter and noise shaping and etc, it's a very complex subject:

http://yadda.icm.edu.pl/yadda/element/bwmeta1.element.baztech-article-BUS8-0020-0008/c/httpaa_czasopisma_pan_plimagesdataaawydaniano1201108noisetransferfunctiondesignandoptimization.pdf

How are you going to determine which noise shaping works best? It's kind of a black art, like how ESS tuned their Sabre dacs.

http://www.teddigital.com/ES9008B_tech.htm
« Last Edit: August 31, 2015, 06:43:27 AM by madaboutaudio »
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ultrabike

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #95 on: August 31, 2015, 07:22:58 AM »

Most things are not simple and easy. It takes time to develop something. It takes time to figure details in almost anything.

Noise transfer function is not too bad IMO depending on background.

Last time I checked ESS, it seemed to me that one of the things they do is detect silence and shut down stuff. An alternative approach would be to use a 1.5-bit (1, 0, -1) output/feedback, which is multi-bit at a basic level. I'm not a big fan of what I've read about the ESS. In fact, I think even the ODAC moved away from ESS for this and that issue.

If you have proofs about the PCM4222 or AKM1234 being pieces of shit, that go unstable and explode then by all means provide them. I honestly don't have proof because the tools I have such as my POS 2i2 will proly not sort things out.

This is not a contest. I don't have a personal/commercial interest whether one device is better than the other. If one device is better than the other, then that's that.

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madaboutaudio

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #96 on: August 31, 2015, 07:53:01 AM »

Disclaimer: I own both the Audio-gd master 7 and Schiit Yggdrasil, both are R2R DACs.

I haven't heard any PCM4222 or AKM1234 before. So I can't make any comments on them.

The hybrid sigma-delta/R2R Ti PCM179x is only mid-fi grade at best. Can be dull/laid back sounding. It's predecessor, Burr Brown/Ti PCM1704UK is so much better in all aspect.

Certainly there are are good sigma delta dacs out there. AD1955(Bricasti M1) or AKM4399(Gungnir) or Matrix X-sabre(ES9018S) or Geekout V2(ES9018AQ2M/K2M) or the NAD M51(propriety sigma delta).

However these dacs are certainly not nearing Yggdrasil or MSB Analog kind of performance.

Go listen to one of the good R2R dacs for yourself. Measurements and Specifications are only part of the story, the key performance benchmark of an audiophile grade dac is level of sensory enjoyment you get out of it(subjective).

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ultrabike

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #97 on: August 31, 2015, 08:16:55 AM »

I'm not making any claims as to which one sounds better. And I understand that Measurements and Specs mean little if the end product is not liked.

I think I heard the Yggdgrasil a few times, but not necessarily critically. I liked what I heard. Not only that. Measurements back this up indeed.

Just saying that if we are going to say that D-S is a piss poor approximation and that's why the technology sucks in general, then it would be desirable to back that up with something other than Mike and a bunch of folks told me so. Preferably with a decent D-S implementation. I mean, I think the QA400 uses CS4272 and from what I remember I don't think it blew up when Merv did a loopback on it.
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paras1te

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #98 on: August 31, 2015, 09:34:37 AM »

Certainly there are are good sigma delta dacs out there. AD1955(Bricasti M1) or AKM4399(Gungnir) or Matrix X-sabre(ES9018S) or Geekout V2(ES9018AQ2M/K2M) or the NAD M51(propriety sigma delta).

However these dacs are certainly not nearing Yggdrasil or MSB Analog kind of performance.
But Yggdrasil is a PREMIUM dac with lotsa stuff (improvements) OTHER THAN THE DAC CHIP.
That was the whole point of the Counterpoint DA-10 ref. I made earlier in the thread.
You've gotta level the playing field. (The ancient Counterpoint D/A does that to a very large, scientific extent, using its proprietary module)
That said, a trained listener can distinguish acoustic differences among electronic architectures and schemas: e.g., non-oversampling vs. oversampling. But I think the value-judgement calls between D-S vs multi are much trickier. I've gotta a closet full of vintage multibit (including some high end stuff) ... yeah it sounds good/different ... but not important enough to drag outta retirement. My daily work-and-play D-S system -- Asus Xonar ST-based -- is aged and clunky, but no way I'll trade in the convenience of multi-TB HDs and playlists with months full-o-FLACs.
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Go listen to one of the good R2R dacs for yourself. Measurements and Specifications are only part of the story, the key performance benchmark of an audiophile grade dac is level of sensory enjoyment you get out of it(subjective).
"Measurements and Specifications [as known to human science mid-2015] are only part of the story". Science and metrics will improve, and parameters will be added to the growing list of tracked specs. In the end, it may not matter ... if you sample enough in the A/D process, you don't need fancy D/A. That's essentially the principle behind DSD; Google "The Best DAC is no DAC".
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ultrabike

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Re: Vintage R2R/multibit DAC Thread
« Reply #99 on: August 31, 2015, 02:31:14 PM »

The recent discussion is not about what is more convenient since we are looking at performance parameters.

It is not either about how DSD removed the need of a fancy D/A. IMO it didn't. The Sony/Philips DSD format seems problematic and perhaps more concerned with making money than improving performance.
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