Topic: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research? (Read 2286 times)

firev1 · « **Reply #10 on:** April 08, 2015, 04:33:48 PM »

Damn Bill-p, I think you hit the nail there. Sadly when they come out to work, they will have to relearn everything vs coming out trained and ready for the job.

Bill-p · « **Reply #11 on:** April 08, 2015, 04:47:05 PM »

Haha, I know, right?

I'm actually getting a bit demotivated from seeing the same thing at school myself. My instructors know about it, but they simply can't help it. The problem is that the people funding these schools can only see "numbers", they don't necessarily get to see the efforts and achievements of any individual student. And then... in an effort to raise more funds, and get more money for the facilities, those who run the school have to start pushing numbers as well. So it's not anyone's fault... just that current circumstances are as such.

The ones receiving the short end of the stick are indeed... the students. But... ah well. Even seeing the problem does not help providing a solution for it. Though... it does also beg the question "is current education worth it at all?"

Because I'd argue that since things are the way they are, students may end up being more successful and profitable by... skipping school and starting their own businesses. I mean... after getting out of school, a student would essentially have... what... some amount of debt, and a piece of paper that tells companies their starting salary is going to be high.

(I'm thinking of dropping out momentarily to pursue a business... $:-\$ )

EraserXIV · « **Reply #12 on:** April 08, 2015, 04:55:03 PM »

I work in a field where one of the tests to be licensed is used as a huge factor for extending interview offers, despite studies by these same colleagues which repeatedly show that scores on this test are not a predictor of future performance (with some studies even showing a negative correlation).

The material that is tested on this test is so far removed from what is actually used in the real-world, but people can score well if they memorize word associations as opposed to actually understanding the concepts. It's a product of the system, it pays off to not actually understand because it takes less time to just memorize the word associations.

Hands · « **Reply #13 on:** April 08, 2015, 05:27:09 PM »

IME some people just care more about critical/analytical thinking and research than others. Whether that comes down to inherent, personal traits or how one was raised, I suppose both play a role. Age doesn't matter so much. I've seen kids that are incredible with critical thinking and older adults that are, well, not at all. It just manifests itself in different ways depending on where you're at and what you're doing in life, school often being quite a different experience compared to everything outside of school. And, even then, those that are strong critical thinkers often excel and various types of critical thinking and not necessarily all sorts, plus everyone still has their flaws even in what they excel at.

Deep Funk · « **Reply #14 on:** April 08, 2015, 07:45:06 PM »

Quote from: Bill-p on April 08, 2015, 04:47:05 PM

Haha, I know, right?

I'm actually getting a bit demotivated from seeing the same thing at school myself. My instructors know about it, but they simply can't help it. The problem is that the people funding these schools can only see "numbers", they don't necessarily get to see the efforts and achievements of any individual student. And then... in an effort to raise more funds, and get more money for the facilities, those who run the school have to start pushing numbers as well. So it's not anyone's fault... just that current circumstances are as such.

The ones receiving the short end of the stick are indeed... the students. But... ah well. Even seeing the problem does not help providing a solution for it. Though... it does also beg the question "is current education worth it at all?"

Because I'd argue that since things are the way they are, students may end up being more successful and profitable by... skipping school and starting their own businesses. I mean... after getting out of school, a student would essentially have... what... some amount of debt, and a piece of paper that tells companies their starting salary is going to be high.

(I'm thinking of dropping out momentarily to pursue a business... $:-\$ )

Between brackets, same here sort of.

I keep starting small personal projects simply to find a reason to get up in the morning. There has to be more than conformity and standardisation.

What do you think of a university of silly walks? I kind of like the idea, too silly yet so worthy of trying...

Skyline · « **Reply #15 on:** April 08, 2015, 08:08:28 PM »

Quote from: Bill-p on April 08, 2015, 04:18:30 PM

I tend to think they have this mindset because of how results-driven the current education system is.

It does not promote students to seek out projects, pursue them, and get something to the finish line. They tend to be more like... "do this, don't ask why, and accept the results". This greatly diminishes students' interests in doing any research or critical thinking...

And sadly, there is no changing it.

Here's a prime example: if your GPA is not 3.0, they don't care even if you are running a successful computer business from a garage (Apple Inc.?), you will never be admitted to one of the Universities of California.

Since grades are so important, students are instead more interested in getting better grades by completing small menial tasks (making sure homework is done, reports are done, tests are taken, etc...) rather than by perfecting any of those tasks.

This doesn't have much to do with stupidity, I don't think, but rather that young folks these days are taught to simply forget perfecting something, and instead getting more done. It's the "quantity" that they care about here. Not "quality".

There are kernels of truth here and there in what you say, but this is an over-generalization.

The other day I had my students develop a hyperbolic function to model the St. Louis Arch and then find the surface area and volume.

Those are the only directions they received. Everything else was done via research, trial and error, collaboration, etc. It was fun to watch them work their way through the various obstacles they faced.

Why? Because it's cool. It certainly won't be found on any standardized tests out there offered to high school age kids.

This kind of stuff is happening throughout our school building and many others like ours.

Don't lose hope. The intellects and thinkers are still alive and well across our country...

Bill-p · « **Reply #16 on:** April 08, 2015, 09:55:51 PM »

Quote from: Deep Funk on April 08, 2015, 07:45:06 PM

Between brackets, same here sort of.

I keep starting small personal projects simply to find a reason to get up in the morning. There has to be more than conformity and standardisation.

What do you think of a university of silly walks? I kind of like the idea, too silly yet so worthy of trying...

Haha, I have a few things planned for the future...

But the way it is right now, I think I'm better off starting something small and manageable, and then expand slowly. If I don't start now, I get the feeling I'll never get to do that at all.

Quote from: Skyline on April 08, 2015, 08:08:28 PM

There are kernels of truth here and there in what you say, but this is an over-generalization.

The other day I had my students develop a hyperbolic function to model the St. Louis Arch and then find the surface area and volume.

Those are the only directions they received. Everything else was done via research, trial and error, collaboration, etc. It was fun to watch them work their way through the various obstacles they faced.

Why? Because it's cool. It certainly won't be found on any standardized tests out there offered to high school age kids.

This kind of stuff is happening throughout our school building and many others like ours.

Don't lose hope. The intellects and thinkers are still alive and well across our country...

Well, but it's only one classroom. I have instructors who also try to do that as well... so on the surface, they would make it look like they are grading on a scale and all, but they secretly and closely monitor the performance of each student and then grade them based on performance rather than on completion of menial tasks. It's reduction of symptoms, but it won't completely take away the disease.

I will admit this much... I am still very much an academic at heart, and one day... once I have amassed enough funding, I'll open my own academy of tech and crafts, and admission will be given only to those who can present an interesting idea, preferably with a prototype, rather than those with good grades. That's how I think education should be like for science and technology. If this country and its government does not want to promote good practices for engineering and science, then I'll do it myself.

All for the sake of the next generation, right?

Claritas · « **Reply #17 on:** April 08, 2015, 11:55:13 PM »

Schopenhauer wrote, "The man attains the maturity of his reasoning and spiritual faculties hardly before his twenty-eighth year."

I read that when I was 19 or 20. It came off as smug and I thought, "Yeah, right." But shortly after my 27th birthday, I started noticing a qualitative change in my capacity to understand the world. So I have to agree. (I was curious how old he was when he wrote that: 63.)

I've told this to younger people I've met who have the fundamentals right but are struggling to make sense of things, and it seems to make them more at ease.

Skyline · « **Reply #18 on:** April 09, 2015, 01:19:29 AM »

Quote from: Bill-p on April 08, 2015, 09:55:51 PM

Haha, I have a few things planned for the future...

But the way it is right now, I think I'm better off starting something small and manageable, and then expand slowly. If I don't start now, I get the feeling I'll never get to do that at all.

Well, but it's only one classroom. I have instructors who also try to do that as well... so on the surface, they would make it look like they are grading on a scale and all, but they secretly and closely monitor the performance of each student and then grade them based on performance rather than on completion of menial tasks. It's reduction of symptoms, but it won't completely take away the disease.

No, it's our entire school. And there are many others just like us in the downtown Nashville area alone. They're all over. You just have to look.

Also, I'll point out that standards-based grading is taking over. It eliminates homework and busy work entirely. Your entire grade is based upon performance, which is graded holistically rather than in a strictly right or wrong manner.

There are a lot of problems in our educational system that need to be fixed, and it seems like a losing battle sometimes when viewed from a big picture perspective. But, get in on ground level and you'll find a lot of amazing teachers and amazing kids producing results despite the larger system working, in many cases, directly against them.

blue · « **Reply #19 on:** April 09, 2015, 02:05:48 AM »

Quote from: Deep Funk on April 08, 2015, 09:22:35 AM

The reason for this thread is simple.

I am in the second year of my business school's bachelor program, higher education comparable to college. Recently I have finished an analytical report for a project for my project group. I am one of the oldies at 26. The others are ranged between 18 and 25 years old.

In the weeks that I have worked with my group I often told them to paraphrase and mention their information sources. When the deadlines approached I received mostly copy-paste parts of questionable quality and and content. (Some people find even grammar and spell checks to much for school reports.)

Over the weeks I have shared my sources, approach (with regards to the topic) and methodology (with regards to the analyses models and tools) for the report. In the final editing days I had to rewrite almost everything and re-check the information used. I am exhausted...

This is not the first time that I had to edit and fix reports from the ground up. It is the last time for me though.

Why is it that the young people I often encounter do not appreciate critical thinking, analytical thinking and research?

Seriously, our future depends on it for the mess the baby boomers (among others) have left. No words.

26 is not old. A small batch of students doesn't mean anything, don't jump to conclusions. It could be a school thing, or a regional thing, or maybe you are just unlucky- think statistics.

The US educational system has flaws but it's actually one of the better ones in the world.

Author Topic: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research? (Read 2286 times)

firev1

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Bill-p

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

EraserXIV

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Hands

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Deep Funk

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Skyline

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Bill-p

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Claritas

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

Skyline

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

blue

Re: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research?

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Author Topic: Do young people still appreciate critical and analytical thinking and research? (Read 2286 times)