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Author Topic: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?  (Read 6669 times)

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Anaxilus

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Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« on: February 27, 2015, 12:29:54 AM »



Final Pono musings...

Is it  poo or  :)p1 ?? The answer is yes! Depending....

For more clarification, let's look back to my preliminary audition at CES where I posted the following:

"Pono

Boy was this disappointing. Tuned a la Meridian Exploder with dull and congested over-warmth. Not quite as bad as that original model but close enough. Also not at all what one would come to expect from the engineers over at Ayre with their clean, transparent resolving and well balanced sound signatures I've heard in the past. Really makes you wonder what the hell speakers and phones Neil Young uses. With all the stiff and capable competition out there in the DAC/Amp/DAP segment these days, one certainly would have hoped for more after everything Neil Young was bitching about. I suppose for people that like that sort of nebulous goo sound, this could be their DAP. However, if one wants a warmer sounding device with better technical proficiencies I would steer them toward the Schiit Fulla (for far less money) as long as it runs in their intended application.

I did try running the Pono via LO into my Leckerton and things do become a bit less congested and a little cleaner from the mids up but still below average in clarity and technical performance while the bass still sound rather soft, indistinct and one-note. As a DAC or All-In-One the Geek Out crushes this thing and already devastated far more competent sounding devices than the Pono (e.g ODAC, JDs Labs, etc).

I also found the UI rather clunky and less than a polished or premium experience. It was very Sansa Clip-esque except with low rez pictures and images. Wasn't the most snappy and responsive, but not what I'd call slow either.

In the end, I'd rather listen to 320kb on my portable rig than FLAC or hirez on the Pono. These things also did quite a disservice to the Audeze EL8's they were paired with. I would also steer people looking to pair hard to drive phones with this device away as well. It is not a weak device but it certainly doesn't have the headroom one would hope for at this size.

Verdict - Decent ears used to decent gear should steer clear of this device unless they need a DAP to serve as a caution marker next to the side of a road."



Now after hearing various reports that didn't jive with the above, especially from fellow pirate burnspbesq who owns one, I decided to give it another go. This time to rule out any possible variables unaccounted for, Paul was able to bring his Noble PRs with both SE and balanced cables terminated for the Pono.

Still reeling from what I remember the original sound to be like, I decided to go ahead and start with the Nobles (only in 'R' mode) via SE cable. I went ahead and attuned myself to the Rs using my reference portable rig which includes the Dell Venue 8 Pro (JRiver 20)>Geek Out 450 (Kernelstreaming)>Leckerton UHA6Smk2 (4627-B opamps/high gain). After getting attuned to the Rs versus my UERM reference I plugged them into the Pono SE output and gave them another audition with the same tracks.

Impression? The Meridian signature was now an Ayre signature as what I had expected to hear at CES originally. More clear, clean, with less warmth and phat lush color mucking things up. Still not really that close to the performance of my reference rig (which was blacker, clearer, smoother, more refined, resolving, with better micro and macro dynamic components) but it was certainly an acceptable level of performance and sonics for the (early bird) price in an all inclusive device for those looking for such a feature set. I'd definitely give it a sonic advantage over the Sony A17 (especially in balanced mode), but the Sony is obviously a more polished device.

Wondering if perhaps the production units had some hardware or miracle firmware adjustments since CES, I swapped to my reference UERMs straight away for a comparative listen. Boom! The mud and slush were back, g'dammit. At this point, OJNeg gave the unit a listen with his Ety ER4S and noticed a similar degraded signature. To get to the bottom of things I decided to go ahead and move on to the Noble Rs using the balanced cable and put the Pono into balanced mode. Once again, the slush and mud gave way to a more notable Ayre-esque signature with improved imaging and soundstage. Notes were a bit fuller and rounder likely a result from the added power. On that note, the Pono in SE operation is rather anemic as it was before. Using both the UERM and Nobles, you have to max the volume to get somewhere around 70-75 dB based on subjective ears. If you prefer to listen louder with IEMs or headphones similar or harder to drive than the afore-mentioned units used here, you MUST invest in a balanced cable.

Curiously, Paul mentioned the balanced cable also seemed to be compatible with the UERMs so I decided to give that a go as well. Immediately the slush and goo returned. Balanced/SE output was not the difference maker. At this point all I could think of was output impedance. I went ahead and asked OJNeg if he felt like checking the output-z and he went ahead and warmed up his multimeter. At this point, every single IEM and headphone I've tried has blown chunks with the Pono except the Noble R. That includes the UERM, ER4S, and Audeze EL8.

Fortunately, OJ was able to put his 4 years of UC education at the School of Engineering to good use by googling 'how to find output impedance' (He didn't actually google anything btw). :P Turns out OJ was able to derive a value of 4ohms output-z for the production/shipping Pono player. This makes sense since the UERM crossover is extremely sensitive to high output impedance just as the old TF10 used to be. OJ surmisses the ER4 also uses bypass filter and that some planars can respond to OI despite having flat curves. One reason some Audeze LCD2/3s can come off wooly or flubby in the low end despite having flat measured impedance curves.

So final verdict? With the right phone at early bird pricing, this is absolutely an above average sounding player at an above average price/performance ratio. At full retail, you better have the right phones and be sure there is nothing else out there you'd find competitive for your needs. With the wrong phones this DAP is simply a loser unless someone likes that sort of signature which was clearly unintended btw. There's no way around it, the 4 ohm output impedance is simply a flawed design decision by a reputable company/designer unfamiliar with the engineering intricacies of the headphone/IEM market. It's the Meridian Exploder all over again but less severe, and ladled with dollops of Neil Young hyperbole.



I'll just leave this here:

« Last Edit: February 27, 2015, 01:06:24 AM by Anaxilus »
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Marvey

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #1 on: February 27, 2015, 12:37:48 AM »

Highish output Z has been intimated nebulously by Master Ayre. Can Gil measure the output Z. Would be curious. I guess no IEMs with lowish nominal impedance / screwy impedance curves.

So at best (balanced) mediocre/decent with right headphones/IEMs; at worst Meridianesque warm running goo?
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deniall83

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #2 on: February 27, 2015, 12:42:55 AM »

Thanks for this Anax. Glad I didn't buy one..
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Anaxilus

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2015, 01:00:16 AM »

Highish output Z has been intimated nebulously by Master Ayre. Can Gil measure the output Z. Would be curious. I guess no IEMs with lowish nominal impedance / screwy impedance curves.

So at best (balanced) mediocre/decent with right headphones/IEMs; at worst Meridianesque warm running goo?

Have to ask Paul if G can have a go at a double check. Possible since they are local respectively.

Pretty much. I think we are sort of at a crossroads wrt value these days where decent or pretty good sonics are great as long as it's one device with a functional interface? I'm not one of those as a known transportable stacker, but I get the argument.

Thanks for this Anax. Glad I didn't buy one..

Your welcome, and thanks for the thx!
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OJneg

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #4 on: February 27, 2015, 03:54:15 AM »

My impressions of the Pono were surprisingly negative with the Etys. It was very much a gooey Leben-esque sound (I've never actually heard a Leben, but I know what you guys are talking about). I was surprised that Anax said he thought it was pretty good. All a bit confusing until I parsed out that he liked it with the Nobles, but still thought it was crap with the UERM.

FWIW I have the ER4B's at the moment which has an impedance curve with a similar high frequency dip. But its load is still very high (100 ohms) and in theory an output impedance of 4 ohms shouldn't be enough to alter the FR by more than a 1dB across the treble range a la voltage divider math. Still sounded like goo to me so I'm not sure what to make of it. My Shozy is a POS in terms of usability and reliability but sonically I'd take it any day. Shouldn't have to resort to or have to worry about specific synergy or impedance matching issues with this sort of portable device. Want something that I can take with me and consistently demo any gear.

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CEE TEE

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2015, 07:17:49 AM »

Thanks for putting it through its paces and trying combos plus even re-trying it and investigating root cause.  Saves a lot of us trouble!
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Hammy

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2015, 08:16:04 AM »

Did you try the Pono with the line-out to the Leckerton?  Doing the line-out to an amp would fix the output impedance issue and let you hear the sound of the player vs. the output impedance changes.

I don't own any IEMs.  I don't plan to ever use it with IEMs.  I've used it balanced with LCD-2.  No impedance issues with those sorts of headphones.  With the LCD-2 it has a set-back and 3D style and enveloping soundstage.  Especially with acoustic music.  To me it has a similar set-back and enveloping soundstage as my Liquid Fire.  And for that I like it.  It lets the headphones disappear and lets me just enjoy the music.  I don't consider that sort of presentation to be fully neutral.  I wouldn't use a player or amp with that sort of presentation to evaluate whether an album was mixed well, the set-back sound can mess that up.  I would use a player or amp with that sort of presentation to enjoy the music.  It's not something I'd consider pirate neutral.  It is something I consider enjoyable and good and something that can give me emotional swing with the music.  If I need to evaluate a mix and get more forward and neutral reference I'll use a different player or amp.

I'm listening to Luka Bloom's "Acoustic Motorbike" album on the Pono and LCD-2 (balanced) right now.  I like the Pono sound with that sort of music for similar reasons that I like the same sort of music with the Liquid Fire.
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Tyll Hertsens

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2015, 03:58:47 PM »

I got 3.76 Ohms output impedance. I'm pretty much in agreement with Anex, though I think I like it quite a bit with the right headphones.
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Anaxilus

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2015, 05:00:43 PM »

Did you try the Pono with the line-out to the Leckerton?  Doing the line-out to an amp would fix the output impedance issue and let you hear the sound of the player vs. the output impedance changes.

It was in my CES review and in my original post above if you missed it.

"I did try running the Pono via LO into my Leckerton and things do become a bit less congested and a little cleaner from the mids up but still below average in clarity and technical performance while the bass still sound rather soft, indistinct and one-note. As a DAC or All-In-One the Geek Out crushes this thing and already devastated far more competent sounding devices than the Pono (e.g ODAC, JDs Labs, etc). "

Balanced output sounds better than it's LO. Not all LO's are created equal it seems. That comment extends beyond just Pono.
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burnspbesq

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Re: Pono (Ayre) player or Oh No! player?
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2015, 05:22:59 PM »

I'm good to go with the player and balanced Noble PR.  If I buy the HD 424 that I'm looking at, it should be fun to see how it deals with a 2K ohm load.   :)p13

Until there is a 256 gig hi-res iPod Touch, I'm out of the portable player market. I can live with 192 gigs (yes, it does work with 128 gig cards). 
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