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Author Topic: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet  (Read 15602 times)

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Original_Ken

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #40 on: January 04, 2014, 08:07:19 PM »

Moved from chatbox:

After having a mini-meet this evening w/ the Auralic Vega, AGD M7, Berkeley DAC2, Luxman D06, PWD mk2, and a Russian integrated DAC/Stat amp I run across this post: http://www.head-fi.org/t/689783/december-2013-mid-level-dac-comparison/750#post_10112395 .  It's of equal measure of laughability and sadness that this individual cannot face the fact that due to his inexperience and inadequate headphone and amp selection lead to a group classification such as 'indistiguishable'.
It is my experience over many years of music listening in audiophile and professional contexts, that it is entirely related to hours of critical listening experience, and not at all related to inadequate equipment.

I'd be willing to bet that the First Violin of any major metropolis' Orchestra, armed with a Magni and Senn HD201, can detect more real differences than any 20 year old head-fi member with a Cavalli and HD-800s.

==

There is a massive blind spot at head-fi regarding the necessity of critical listening experience.  This is partially because the vast majority of head-fi members have none and do not even understand what that is.   Certainly the admins do not want to "diss" their membership by informing them that they are currently totally unqualified to make any audio buying decision.  (In fact that would be the opposite of the premise of the site.)

But imagine giving people these choices:

A) Undergoing surgery by one of the world's most experienced team of surgeons using 1958 equipment, OR

B) Undergoing surgery by med school students who have never done surgery, using 2013 equipment.

and:

A) Being defended by a 5 foot 6 inch 100 pound guy who was MMA world champion in his weight class, OR

B) Being defended by a 6 foot 4 inch 300 poung guy who has never had a day of fight training.

In both cases, everyone would choose A).   But several posts could not convince a wealthy upper-middle-class head-fi and audio newbie that experience had anything to do with it (" I can hear just as much as anyone. ")
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 08:21:50 PM by Original_Ken »
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Anaxilus

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #41 on: January 04, 2014, 08:47:24 PM »

It is my experience over many years of music listening in audiophile and professional contexts, that it is entirely related to hours of critical listening experience, and not at all related to inadequate equipment.

I'd be willing to bet that the First Violin of any major metropolis' Orchestra, armed with a Magni and Senn HD201, can detect more real differences than any 20 year old head-fi member with a Cavalli and HD-800s.

Yes and no.  Experience and proper methodology matter a bunch.  However, gear does matter!  Some of the best mastered recordings have lots of information captured in acoustic reflections and trailing decays for example.  If your headphone or amp sound mushy, muddy or congested this information will never be retrieved regardless of experience.  It's not a false dichotomy to say it's one or the other.  Of course, if your reference recordings are nasty compressed garbage, both points are moot anyway also reducing the likelihood of hearing differences.

On a side note, people like to use to use a set amount of $$ to establish diminishing returns in the audio hobby.  I think people would be better off setting those limits based on the mastering proficiency of their preferred records.  More often than not, I notice how many people don't truly understand how bad their preferred music sounds and that they are looking for a coloration to hide it.
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Original_Ken

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #42 on: January 04, 2014, 09:13:11 PM »

at the First Violin of any major metropolis' Orchestra, armed with a Magni and Senn HD201, can detect more real differences than any 20 year old head-fi member with a Cavalli and HD-800s.

Yes and no.  Experience and proper methodology matter a bunch.  However, gear does matter!  Some of the best mastered recordings have lots of information captured in acoustic reflections and trailing decays for example.
[/quote]
That is certainly true, but I don't think the equipment is the limiting factor on head-fi.   For example, when I first heard the Mad Dog 3.2, the big improvement that I heard over other headphones (such as HE-400) was in just those trailing decays.  They are clear in the Mad Dog, and smeared in (for example) HE-400 and D2000.  But amidst the hundreds of impressions on head-fi over months, I only saw two other members mention this factor.

Most head-fi members only talk about the level of bass vs mids vs treble. :)

But it is certainly true that better equipment allows a critical listener to hear more.  I have noticed an increase in subtle details presented by the HRT MS2 over the Onkyo AVR DAC, and then the MS2Plus over the MS2, and recently the Bifrost Uber over the MS2Plus.   And the Alpha Dogs do resolve yet more than the Mad Dogs.  (And I'm sure other equipment might resolve yet more.)
« Last Edit: January 04, 2014, 09:48:30 PM by Original_Ken »
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shipsupt

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #43 on: January 04, 2014, 09:19:57 PM »

Can we expect some mini-meet impressions?

Off topic for this thread... but how was that Russian stat amp?
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

OJneg

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #44 on: January 04, 2014, 09:33:12 PM »

Most head-fi members only talk about the level of bass vs mids vs treble.

Well tonal balance is definitely the easiest thing to pick out. You don't really need to have a "trained ear" to discern those things. The other subtleties can be a bit tougher to eek out until you have a lot of experience. Especially relative experience.
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s1

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #45 on: January 04, 2014, 10:20:06 PM »

Can we expect some mini-meet impressions?

Off topic for this thread... but how was that Russian stat amp?

Interested to know how the Vega faired against the other dacs ...a friend and I thought it was quite good compared to the  Luxman and maybe even the M7
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Maxvla

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #46 on: January 04, 2014, 10:44:51 PM »

Vega results were edited into the HF thread.
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shipsupt

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #47 on: January 04, 2014, 10:47:27 PM »

Any chance for a link for those of us who don't HF much? I'm not even sure where to look at this point...
Thanks.

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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Stapsy

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Marvey

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Re: DAC-Off Comparison Spreadsheet
« Reply #49 on: January 05, 2014, 03:59:11 AM »

updated with Vega and Berkeley Alpha2.
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