CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 01:48:32 PM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6

Author Topic: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500  (Read 8853 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Tari

  • Poet Laureate of Changstaria
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +245/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 854
  • Is tari a wizard
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #30 on: January 14, 2013, 11:06:23 PM »

It's not a real club until we start willfully excluding people. 
Logged

LFF

  • Mastering Wizard & Restoration Guru
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +761/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1425
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #31 on: January 15, 2013, 04:36:11 PM »

Stopped by to listen to this system....

The Synergistic system is synergistic.   p:3

SERIOUSLY.
Logged
These statements are false.
I rule with an iron fist and ears of gold!
The preceding statements were true.

The way to a man's heart is through her stomach.

dBel84

  • Ortho Ninja
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +86/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 341
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #32 on: January 15, 2013, 06:16:07 PM »

I clearly do not roam the threads enough , this is a great reflection on the poweramp for ortho phenomenon. LFF - you should try and run the XA1 directly. If it sounds even more phenomenal, then it is time to remove the voltage divider on the headphone output.

never heard of crest amps before either.

..dB
Logged

Marvey

  • The Man For His Time And Place
  • Master
  • Pirate
  • *****
  • Brownie Points: +555/-33
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 6698
  • Captain Plankton and MOT: Eddie Current
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2013, 06:27:32 PM »

The Crest stuff is pro / sound reinforcement gear (among QSC, Crown, etc.)

I figured it was time I posted something specific on this since no one on HF could ever explain why these HFM orthos sounded better from power amps other than they sounded "better" without any qualifications. The observations here (less one-note/blurry/muddy bass - more articulate,  more open and spacious) only pertain to the HE-500 of course.
Logged

sachu

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +75/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 535
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #34 on: January 15, 2013, 06:36:57 PM »

Not surprised at your finding. This was my conclusion too and used to listen straight out of the Sansui AU-217 and tried it once with the Plinius SA-100mk2. ANd i ran it without the voltage divider both times. Mostly with Wharfedale ID1s and Fostex T50RP
Logged

girlystephanie

  • Guest
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #35 on: January 16, 2013, 05:25:41 AM »

Hi guys!

I am a newbie here. LFF know me just enough through a pm exchange to introduce me to this thread. Nice forum BTW.

If I may chip in on your power amp discussion, I would like to think out loud for a moment. Let start with dynamic headphones. To generate the attack of a big bass sound wave, the membrane first have to move torward its max amplitude, driven by an electric field. We know that the force of the electro field is proportional to the current.

This sound wave, lets call it a sin wave, is a moving train and the membrane has to accelerate fast if it want to get on it. In real life, there is always a very little lag because of the inertia of the membrane. It cannot get instantaneously at the proper speed. The higher the current, the faster the membrane will get to the imposed speed (or the lighter the membrane, or the more powerfull the natural magnet is).

Then it gets only worse. Just as it reach it's max point of displacement (top of the sin wave), the electro magnet reverse its energy, trying to impose a change of direction to the membrane (lets not go into the hysteresis of the field here). But with the acquired momentum, the membrane will fight this force field and move a little too far before it finally come to a stop and reverse its movement (generating, like a dynamo, a counter current that will fight the "pure" signal). Again, the higher the current, the faster the membrane will reverse (or the lighter the membrane, or the more...).

In real life, the displacement of the membrane doesn't follow perfectly the sound wave. So you not only need your tension to align with your impedance (non linear through the spectrum, oh god) and your power to move some air and play it loud. You also need current to control your membrane behaviour. Making it follow the sound wave as close as you can. The lower the frequency, the more energy is in it, the more difficult it is to control/impose/restrain the movement the membrane by its own initiative! Or in other words, if the current is just enough to move the membrane, it won't be able to stop it fast enough. So high impedance headphone on too small amplifier eat the tension and offer less current to control your membrane, not only lowering the volume, but more importantly damaging the sound.

To makes things a bit more interesting, we could add that the membrane has a non linear elasticity. Of course, there is no perfect amplifier either. They all do have their own quirks. An ample reserve of fast power supply will help the amplifier to cope with any scenario of fast attack, generating instantaneously the power it needs to control these lazy and errant membranes (which relate to speed, control and sharpness, a purer wave). 

How does everything apply to orthos? Well, in fact, I don't know much about this technology. I only suspect that the membrane has a low inertia and it should be easier to control them. And its lower impedance doesn't take so much tension. So the culprid must be its low sensitivity that eat lots of power/current to produce a loud enough performance. This means probably too low current to adequately control/impose/restrain of the membrane on a smaller amplifier. Only a guess here.

Does this all make sence?
Logged

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #36 on: January 16, 2013, 06:16:10 AM »

Welcome to the forum girly stephanie..

The damping factor thing has been discussed here and there already.
For headphones above .. say 32 Ohm... it really doesn't matter that much if a driver is driven from a 0.001 Ohm power amplifier or 0.1 Ohm headphone amplifier.
It DOES when driven from an amplifier with a considerable higher output R  ;)
You see, the damping current is determined by the impedance of the driver, not by the output R of the amp as the latter is relatively too small and they are always in series for current but in parallel for voltage to make it more complicated.
The perceived 'grip' on the driver is perhaps just perceived that way or caused by voltage division FR changes.

Also note that a headphone membrane has no problems following a bass note's speed but most dynamic headphones DO have an increased impedance at those frequencies which are caused by the 'overshoot' or back EMF. Electrical damping doesn't do much though.
The toughest thing to follow are the higher frequencies.
The speed at which the membrane travels is many factors higher at 5kHz than at 50 Hz (you can do the math) yet 5kHz and even 10kHz isn't a real problem to follow.
5kHz is about the highest harmonic content of a bass and it should be noted that the amplitude there is extremely small already.
http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
If it would be that problematic you would see a different impedance plots of the headphone when driven from different source resistances which is not the case.
The HEARD differences are caused by voltage division IF the output resistance is relatively big opposite the impedance and depending on the mechanical properties of the driver.
The reason the bass performance is always 'the culprit' and not have enough slam or power can (mostly) be contributed to 2 things.
Amplitude difference (due to volume control change after changing something) because of our nature of hearing (Fletcher/Munson curves say you hear relatively more lows at increased volume) and the most important factor the changes in FR at the 'bass' fundamental frequencies opposite the relatively less boosted harmonics of those bass notes resulting in a different 'bass'

An ortho's efficiency is relatively bad (little windings, relatively large airgap) and so you need heaps of power to motivate it to move.
In the other direction a motion of the membrane induces little if no current in the membrane for the same reason.... flat impedance graph.
Damping theories and 'grip on the driver' can go overboard, there isn't any grip on the membrane.

Why a power amp sounds 'better' with orthos ?... because there is more voltage and current available and thus MUCH more dynamic headroom.
Voltage isn't a real problem for desktop amps, current is often limited though.
No such limits, for headphones, exist using power amps as they are designed to deliver 10 times more current than an ortho can ever draw before bursting into flames.
The below mentioned Plinius SA-100mk2 would in fact be able to pump 20W into a T50RP which (if it were linear) would result in 141dB (if it would have survived being only 3W).

So you simply have loads of dynamic range and the noise floor of the power amp isn't bothering us due to the low efficiency of the driver.
The noise remains below the audible treshold.
More sensitive headphones connected directly to a power amp (600 Ohm headphones can be connected to power amps without any resistors) might have audible noise in the background as power amplifiers can ea sily have higher voltage noise levels without being audible (unless our ears are close to the tweeter).

About the non-linear behavior of an electro-mechanical transducer that is most definitely a grave point.
Ruthlessly shown in Purrins measurements of the HE500 which showed the distortion is the same regardless of the amp (Magni-O2) and many factors higher than the addition of the amplifiers when using testtones.
Would be great to repeat the test with white noise and a spectrum analyser in that case the objections of single tones not revealing everything would be smaller, yet still not be the more organized audio spectrum of music.

So much tests to run but even more music to enjoy.
Though choice ... to measure or enjoy music...  :-Z

In the end... an ortho fed from a power amp makes sense and has been making sense for a long time already.
« Last Edit: January 16, 2013, 04:49:26 PM by Solderdude »
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

paranoidroid

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Powder Monkey
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +6/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 27
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #37 on: January 18, 2013, 05:09:25 AM »

This is a great discussion. I always wonder if more power is truly better. In terms of dynamic headroom:

If I have a modest amp that can do 500mw into HE-500 46ohms, that provides 116db peaks at the HE-500 89dB/mW. 89 + 10 × Log(500) = 116db.

Those peaks are pretty loud. Assuming I have a much more powerful amp like the 8W example, and given everything else being equal (low amp output impedance, etc), there should theoretically be zero difference in what I hear as long as my peaks don't go over 116 causing the amp to clip.

Is this right or am I missing something fundamental? It seems an amp that can put 500mw vs 8W into the same load isn't an advantage even on the HE-500 in most circumstances. It'll only make a difference if you want those peaks to be over 116db without clipping (current limiting), a volume that is probably not typical for most long term listening.
Logged

Anaxilus.

  • Dikus Beligerantis Analmorticus
  • Pirate
  • **
  • Brownie Points: +65535/-65535
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 577
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #38 on: January 18, 2013, 05:17:20 AM »

Why does everything have to be a function of loudness?  Is SPL that attractive of a red herring?  Are we all 17 year olds w/ arrays of 12 inch subwoofers in the back of our Hondas?
Logged
If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: SYNERGISTIC SYSTEM: An awesome setup for the HE500
« Reply #39 on: January 18, 2013, 06:13:24 AM »

This is a great discussion. I always wonder if more power is truly better. In terms of dynamic headroom:

If I have a modest amp that can do 500mw into HE-500 46ohms, that provides 116db peaks at the HE-500 89dB/mW. 89 + 10 × Log(500) = 116db.

Those peaks are pretty loud. Assuming I have a much more powerful amp like the 8W example, and given everything else being equal (low amp output impedance, etc), there should theoretically be zero difference in what I hear as long as my peaks don't go over 116 causing the amp to clip.

Is this right or am I missing something fundamental? It seems an amp that can put 500mw vs 8W into the same load isn't an advantage even on the HE-500 in most circumstances. It'll only make a difference if you want those peaks to be over 116db without clipping (current limiting), a volume that is probably not typical for most long term listening.

I am inclined to fully agree with you, and am sure Voldemort will too.
However, Not all amps that are measured with an output of 1kHz frequency and reach a certain output level (often with only 1 channel driven to get better numbers) have the same power bandwidth with both channels driven with wide spectrum signals. 
Consider the provided power in squarewave and sine wave with the same peak voltage needs different power amounts of power.
Reality is somewhere in between (leaning towards sinewave.. agreed).
Also it will depend on the dynamics of the song.
If you playback a highly loudness war'ed song you will be looking at 110dB average SPL and 116dB peak.
This would have let you turn down the volume knob MUCH sooner and the 0.5W is dynamic and powerful enough !
Now a classical piece with average SPL of say 90dB that is played back at realistic levels small peaks might occur of over 116dB which are NOT found to be absurdly loud but when compressed takes away a bit of the enjoyment.

I think it is too bad no-one has powermeters on their amps, I am still contemplating making an ultra-fast one that can measure even the shortest peak just to see if I am nearing the clipping level.

Also one could easily shout 'expectation bias' but I don't want to cause I was not there and did not meet the persons doing the test.
Some individuals I don't 'believe' others I give the benefit of the doubt.

8W (or even 20W in the other example) may seem a bit too much, for drivers that are rated at 3W, but the rating is for continuous sinewave and is a power it should handle without burning or permanent damage. For music signals the average power is lower so when 3W average power is reached 20W peaks may occur (8dB between peak and average power) which it could handle without any probs.

Consider our hearing has built in AGC (Automatic Gain Control) and has problems with dynamic ranges over 70dB this means you will be needing more power during the day to get the same sense of 'loudness' as in the wee hours where you can hear your watch tick.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2013, 06:20:12 AM by Solderdude »
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5 6