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Author Topic: The Burn in Thread  (Read 5081 times)

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socrates

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The Burn in Thread
« on: July 21, 2012, 12:51:51 AM »
Okay, this issue has been skirted around a bit on other sites/forums (maybe even this one -- too lazy to check). Tyll H at IF also tried to make more of an objective science out of it a short while back.

So what do you changstar.com folks think of the SUBJECTIVE (sonic) effects before/after, say,10's to 100's hrs of use? (use = non-abusive. May be deliberate burn-in via one of those ad hoc burning tracks on XLO Test CD (from 1990's))
 
Does it matter for certain brands (manuf.) more than others (e.g., more for AKG) ... or transducer type (DD vs. ES vs. Planar vs. MA (micro-acoustic: BA, micro-dyn., etc)? Maybe some burning-in for the cable alone?
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:04:08 AM by rhythmdevils »
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Marvey

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2012, 02:25:51 AM »
I've seen burn-in effects from orthos. I'm trying to get Tyll to measure burn-in on a headphone or two which I think are more susceptible to it. Even then, these changes are minor and probably inaudible. I still subscribe more to brain-burn in, because it happens with me about every time I change headphones with hugely different characteristics.

I put on TH900 and I think "oooh, this is bassy". A day later, everything else sounds bass-lite. Then I put on the W3000 and think "oooh, these have a wierd midrange" A day later I get used to it. This is the reason I make sure I've been listening to a reference (knowing exactly where that reference stands) for a period of time before I make subjective impressions of a headphone.

Cable burn-in is ridiculous. I'm on the fence with cables, and I would hope that people buy cables more for their bling, comfort, or utility than sonic properties. I don't have a problem with people wanting to use different cables as a final touch or tweak to their sound. But I have a very hard time believing someone who says that cables magically transformed their LCD2 from something unlistenable to something listenable. Besides, in this case of the LCD2, I feel its one of those headphones which remains highly immune to cable differences. <woooooo - scary music>

BTW, why do you have negative karma here?
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 02:28:48 AM by purrin »
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Hands

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2012, 02:40:10 AM »
I've come to the conclusion that it's almost entirely placebo or brain burn-in. I used to fool myself into hearing changes (because HF told me so), and switching headphones with different characteristics does the same thing purrin mentioned.
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socrates

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2012, 02:59:10 AM »
Quote from: hans030390 on July 21, 2012, 02:40:10 AM

I've come to the conclusion that it's almost entirely placebo or brain burn-in. I used to fool myself into hearing changes (because HF told me so), and switching headphones with different characteristics does the same thing purrin mentioned.
Yes, on the whole, overtly subtle (compared to other "parameters") -- especially for ABX/short-duration testing or listening sessions (vs. long-term, relaxed/subjective testing) ... as are DAC vs. DAC comparisons ... and/or if one REALLY buys into all the objective-is-the-only-true-God (=Hydrogenaudio) stuff, that very belief can distort/dissuade. Been there, done that -- not that I support the over-priced high-end audiophile by any means.



Sorry to speculate in this Meta-over-Meta (aka: how meta can you go), Theory-of-Mind stuff.
Psycho-acoustics is v. complex and definitely under-studied.
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:04:42 AM by rhythmdevils »
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socrates

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2012, 03:20:24 AM »
Quote from: purrin on July 21, 2012, 02:25:51 AM

Cable burn-in is ridiculous.
Yes. And those for-profit 3rd-party manufs/modders of such stuff overplay it. THAT SAID ... Do they -- 3rd-party manufs/modders -- REALLY believe in what they're selling? I'm thinking they do to a large extent ... most humans have pretty good BS detectors built in. [Survival advantage of a social animal. ] I'm thinkin' these 3rd-partiers do cater to crowd that underthinks things. Not that they're incapable of being more aware. Think about all lot sorts of stuff we believed in (thought were important -- PAST TENSE) in, say Jr High or HS.

Now, all sorts of distractions comin' in: Twitter, Facebook, etc. So info overload ... and can't get to certain truths.

Anyway, back to main issue...
 I almost dumped my 701's ... and yes I read about various accounts of AKG and massive burn-in time. But I discounted that advice 'cause I was DISTORTINGLY rooted in the objective-is-God phil.

I had a DAP with a burn-in-sweep track, that I put on infinite repeat, and let the Gee's run in for 300 hrs. So I thought ... what the hell ... let this run while I go on vacation. Yeah, this made an important/positive improvement. I kept the 701s!
Given the results, I also had a fairly new set of Grado 325i's, which I similarly gave up on ... but after a similar burn-in interval, they improved.
The 701's are one of my three main cans (DT880 and HD-650 being the other) so the burn-in was important to THEM ... the 325i burn-in wasn't 'nough to make 'em a regular ;)
« Last Edit: July 23, 2012, 01:05:00 AM by rhythmdevils »
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ujamerstand

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2012, 05:28:04 AM »
I think you should read the articles in the soapbox. You have read the articles in the soapbox, right?

I believe that it is important to understand why the burn-in phenomenon exists, and what might cause us to like a set of cans better, when we didn't like them before. Your hypothesis seems to be that burn-in causes changes in the driver, "improving" it in the process. Thus, you like it better afterwards.

In this thread, we see that the response of a Grado SR80 driver stays very close in between measurements. No doubt they were listened to in between the sessions, burning it in. However, the fact that they don't change, means that burn-in does not cause changes in the drivers, contradicting your hypothesis.

I am getting similar results on my setup. As long as the method of measurement remains the same, the position and seal of the headphone are the same, the results should be the same (or very close.). Most of the small differences could probably attributed to slight changes in position. The response do not change significantly over time. Thus, as purrin said before, "burn-in" should be more of a psychological phenomenon than a physical one, at least with regards to electrodynamic drivers.
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Marvey

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2012, 05:47:09 AM »
I am NOT the one smiting Socrates BTW.


But as I've recounted many times, my experience with the K701 was the opposite. I kept burning the thing in. 40, 80, 100, 200 and 400 hours. I even wanted it to sound better. I wanted the bass to come. But it never did and hence I got rid of them.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2012, 05:48:36 AM »
I burned my DT1350 into an Omega II.  It was amazing. 
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Marvey

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2012, 06:32:38 AM »
Now now! Be nice. We don't want this descending into any personal attacks. It's against the forum ru... wait we don't have any rules.
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ujamerstand

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2012, 06:44:22 AM »
OP did ask a good question. So he should be applauded for that. However, he made a bad assumption. I don't want any new readers to think that burn-in causes significant changes in dynamic drivers. Electrostatic drivers are a different stories though, I've read that the diaphragm needs time to charge to sound optimal. I'd be interested to learn if the claim is true. Too bad my kgsshv is still in pieces... ( purrin, *nodge* *nodge*, *hint* *hint*)
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