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Author Topic: The Burn in Thread  (Read 5081 times)

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MuppetFace

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2012, 11:26:48 AM »

For me, the question isn't so much one of "do changes occur?" but rather: are the changes significant enough to be audible, and if so, are those changes occurring in the transducer or myself?

Like purrin, I'll listen to a headphone like the W3000ANV one week and feel it sounds phenomenal, and then return to it a week later and experience a rather crappy sounding headphone. A week later still, I find myself warming up to it again. Does this mean the headphones are getting worse, then better, then worse, then better again? I've actually seen some people suggest that burn-in is not a linear progression, but that headphones do in fact get worse, better, worse, and then better. To me changes in one's mood and tolerances---one's state of mind---is a more likely explanation in this case.

Why is it that so often we see posts about headphones getting better at the end of a burn-in period? Why do we rarely hear people complaining that their headphones sound crappier after burning them in? It seems odd that if a mechanical change occurs it's always for the best. I mean we're not talking about a pair of shoes that suddenly fit better after wearing them on your feet. To me it just seems like wish fulfillment: someone wants more bass quantity and after a week he/she manages to convince him/herself that there is, in fact, more bass.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 11:39:38 AM by MuppetFace »
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gurubhai

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2012, 12:26:43 PM »

All my headphones continue to grow crappier!
 I keep fixing issues only to have another one pop in a few months. :)p18
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donunus

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2012, 01:12:43 PM »

burn in exists but it depends on the headphone and the person listening at the same time. Some headphones change more than others over time and sometimes even those cans that do change more over time may not have changed in the view of certain individuals that already liked them in the first place. I've noticed that crappy cans or headphones that people don't like seem to change more over time when it is the psychological factor that we are dealing with.

With experience and a separate headphone or speakers used for reference purposes, it is easier to tell whether a certain headphone has changed in sound over time.
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donunus

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2012, 01:13:26 PM »

sorry for the bad wording, I'm already on my 10th beer hehehe
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ultrabike

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2012, 05:59:31 PM »

According to some, the DT990, DT880, AKG701, Grados, among others benefit from burn in. Of all of those, I used the DT990 for a couple of months. They were too bright in the beginning. However, if I had them on for a few hours, their sound would perceptively improve (not to my complete satisfaction though). Furthermore, if I switched headphones and then put the DT990 on again, they would be very bright again. I liked them much more when equalized.

It may be me, but is it the trend that relatively brighter (or bass lean) headphones benefit more from burn in than other headphones? It is my understanding that direction can be better perceived with high frequency sounds. Regarding our mind "hand" on the matter. Could it be that our brain adjusts to high frequency deviations more readily given their importance in direction finding? Are there particular frequencies bumps that are more readily compensated by the brain?

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socrates

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #25 on: July 21, 2012, 06:42:36 PM »

For me, the question isn't so much one of "do changes occur?" but rather: are the changes significant enough to be audible, and if so, are those changes occurring in the transducer or myself?
Are SOME of us THAT unsure/mistrusting (of our own "sense") that we AUTOMATICALLY dismiss our perception? This is not like, say, religion, which has 1000s of years of incredulity to disprove itself ... well, religion does makes sense from and evol. psych perspective (plenty of info on that, so no need to further digress).

POINT BEING: A lot (statistically signif.) # of headphone fans have noted RELATIVE importance of burn-in. I don't THINK Nature would have faked us out (via some sort of mental acclimatization -- as some of you FOOLS are suggesting ) knowing that there are real-world NUANCED auditory phenomenon (tigers sneaking up on you, deer you are hunting) ... and yes, a lot of these are what some of you FOOLS are calling '[non] big deal(s)' .  Well, perhaps not immediately (ABX stressed-out style) but they are important OVER TIME; in fact, a few 100K yrs ago (and for most of man's up-time) life-or-death significant.

Also, somewhat related, is the man-biting-dog situation. All these well-measuring phones being worshiped on this site (IMO, based on a few somewhat important metrics; their SYNERGISTIC effects being mostly uninvestigated, and themselves being an incomplete parameter set in a nascent scientific world (think 100 yrs into the future where, say, more than the Hubble constant may be important)). But doesn't THAT also constitute a power-of-suggestion? E.g., Purrin' notes: "This HD650 measures great, wow".  Another changstar worshiper concurs: "No wonder they sound so good." Not saying the 650 is a bad set o' cans. But doesn't a positive objective review ALSO set one up psychologically (=psycho-somatically) into believing (even HEARING) more into them vs. REALITY?

Here's what may be a big par of YOUR problem: Too many DUMMIES thinkin' INSIDE THE BOX:
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 06:58:35 PM by socrates »
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rhythmdevils

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #26 on: July 21, 2012, 06:53:19 PM »

As Purrin and MF said, the fact that burn in always results in a positive changed makes it highly suspect in my eyes.  But not only does it always result in positive changes, burn in causes all kinds of wildly different changes, that always happen to be the exact changes that headphone needs.  If a headphone is too bright, burn in tones them down, if a headphone is shrill, it becomes less shrill, if a headphone is basslight, the bass increases, if a headphone has too much bass, the bass lessens, if a headphone has boomy bass, the bass becomes less boomy, if a headphone lacks warmth, it gains warmth, if a headphone has small soundstage, the soundstage increases. 

Not once have I ever read about someone experiencing negative changes with burn in.

This just isn't possible with a mechanical change that isn't recognized by manufacturers, and therefore not planned or accounted for.  There's no way it could be that consistently positive while changing every single aspect of a headphone's sound in every single direction. And even if it was a real mechanical change, and was accounted for and planned for, look at the way most headphones are designed- most of them are horribly engineered seemingly by baboons.  The idea that these terribly engineered headphones always have perfectly engineered burn in characteristics is absurd. 

I believe the vast majority of burn in changes are in the brain.  But I do think it's possible that there is something that changes, sometimes, with some phones.  I don't think it's significant enough to worry about though.  I don't think someone should talk about burning in phones they don't like at first to see if they change.  I think it's likely that people's first impressions about a phone are more accurate, and the burn in effect is them getting used to those problems/colorations.  As has been said by others above.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 07:31:25 PM by rhythmdevils »
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Marvey

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #27 on: July 21, 2012, 07:19:05 PM »

I don't think anyone is outright denying that certain transducers do burn-in and change over time. As I've said, I'm trying to work with Tyll to get him to measure short-term burn-in for a few candidates which I feel are susceptible to it.

I think the debate is whether the results are even significant enough to matter. And if they are significant, whether those results would indicate a defect of not. See this extreme case of burn-in: http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,313.msg4600.html#msg4600. I also find having to supposedly burn-in a headphone for fitty hours or more for it to perform optimally somewhat ludacris for an end-user. It would seem that the end-user should just buy a better suited headphone from day one.

I don't think anyone here trusts measurements more than their ears. If you think so, you are badly confusing us with the extremists of the objectivist religion. And you would surprised how many of us here like headphones which don't necessarily measure well, and how many of us have different preferences (very few actually own the aforementioned good measuring HD650 or LCD2.) Also, I trust my senses enough to know and observe how I acclimatize. We are talking about the whole meta-cognition thing here.  I would suggest getting to know some of the people here better before coming to certain conclusions.

For those who want to believe in the substantial positive effects of magic and cables, I offer this person's unique perspective (see the Part I video):  http://www.changstar.com/index.php/topic,410.0.html

On that note, I tire; and this thread is beginning to look more like it belongs on Head-Fi, where this same topic has been discussed Ad infinitum.

Bottom line is that very few people here care about it here; and they would rather get a headphone that they liked from day one than set up a burn-station to burn something in for 400 hours to maybe get a headphone that sounds like they kinda sorta like it or could live with it.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:02:49 PM by purrin »
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Questhate

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #28 on: July 21, 2012, 08:03:11 PM »

Some interesting shades to this discussion so far. Good points brought up, but some false assumptions by the OP on his audience on this board.

Does Burn-In Exist?
Pretty sure no one here has completely closed the door on the possibility burn-in existing. There are several subjective accounts in this very thread where a listener has experienced headphones sounding differently in different instances and/or over time. However, given the complex interactions that factor into our auditory perception, it's hard to conclusively attribute the subjective differences to only driver burn-in. As you know, it is much harder to disprove something than to prove that something exists. And even then, there is no solid evidence that burn-in truly does exist.

Do measurements tell the whole story?
Just because the instruments we have on hand cannot prove burn-in exists in a meaningful way, that doesn't necessarily end the debate for me. I don't think anyone here will tell you that objective measurements (in its current state) is the end-all-be-all. I've seen Purrin and Anaxilus argue with hordes of objectivists that believe that the Objective2 amp is perfect because it measures so. Purrin himself has admitted that he can hear clear differences between different tubes although it does not show anywhere on his measurements here. While measurements give us an insight into what we hear, there are things that we must subjectively find out for ourselves (ie. resolution, or soundstage).

Do measurements create a bias?
Of course it can (and does). But I believe some people are more susceptible to it than others. I'm confident that most of the folks that frequent this site are intelligent to account for confirmation bias, and strive to be more honest with themselves. Folks here are definitely a far cry from the typical audiophile that slaps an expensive cable onto their headphones that instantly transforms it. And if you look through individual headphone measurement threads, there are subjective impressions from people who hear things a bit differently than the measurements show.

So my personal belief? Could be driver burn-in. More likely it is brain burn-in. Somewhere between the two likelihoods is the possibility that it is an interaction between driver and brain burn-in (and possibly others). But it is not a big enough deal to me that I spend too much time caring about it. When I buy headphones, I use them for 200 hours or so and then decide whether to keep it.



« Last Edit: July 21, 2012, 08:04:55 PM by Questhate »
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tdunn

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Re: SUBJECTIVE effects of burn-in (aka break in, run in, etc)
« Reply #29 on: July 21, 2012, 08:10:20 PM »


POINT BEING: A lot (statistically signif.) # of headphone fans have noted RELATIVE importance of burn-in. I don't THINK Nature would have faked us out (via some sort of mental acclimatization -- as some of you FOOLS are suggesting ) knowing that there are real-world NUANCED auditory phenomenon (tigers sneaking up on you, deer you are hunting) ... and yes, a lot of these are what some of you FOOLS are calling '[non] big deal(s)' .  Well, perhaps not immediately (ABX stressed-out style) but they are important OVER TIME; in fact, a few 100K yrs ago (and for most of man's up-time) life-or-death significant.


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