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Author Topic: Neutral Playback  (Read 3341 times)

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mkubota1

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Neutral Playback
« on: June 06, 2012, 05:44:49 AM »

So I have an honest and perhaps naive question about neutral playback.  I think I get the concept- to convert the encoded signal from the medium (vinyl, CD, tape, digital file- whatever) into a sound wave, literally- warts and all.  What I'm not sure I understand are phrases like "as the artist meant for it to be heard" or "the way it was recorded".

For example, if it's supposed to be the way the mastering engineer heard it, wouldn't the only way to get remotely close to this mean having the identical playback equipment in a similar or identical environment?  For example, I understand that Abbey Road Studios uses B&W 800Ds and Classe amplifiers for playback monitoring.  So if you wanted to hear the Harry Potter soundtrack true to form, presumably the most accurate way would be to use that same equipment, ideally in a room set-up the same way they have. And I would imagine that the sound varies from studio to studio as much as headphones themselves do.

To makes things more interesting, I'm guessing that a lot of people who master or make their own music realize that almost nobody has a system like this at their disposal, with iPods and stock earbuds being the most popular playback setup; and they will master their music accordingly.  And this doesn't just apply to pop music producers/ engineers.  So really, in a lot if not nearly all of these cases isn't the musical truth sitting inside of the head of one of these mastering engineers?  And at the very least, shouldn't we be listening to the same hardware that they are listening to?

Again, I think I understand the concept of neutral playback and the difference between something like iBuds and HD600s.  But this is something I've been wrestling with since getting further into this hobby.  I'm throwing this out there knowing that there are guys like LFF who actually make the music and can enlighten me.  I have a pretty wide-open palate and I'm up for really anything; so I don't take sides on the subjective vs. objective issue of musical playback.  Cheers!
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Marvey

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2012, 07:05:30 AM »

There's no guarantee are you going to get same playback as in the mastering studio. The engineers in the studios don't expect your system to be like theirs at all! However they do calibrate their equipment to be as neutral as possible to make sure that the widest variety of consumer playback systems will remain at least somewhat true to what they intended. The more neutral the playback system, the more likely it will be true to the audio engineers' intent.

A few engineers even go to the extent of playing back their work on different devices: in the studio, on a boom-box, speakers at home, on a iPhone with iBuds, etc. I shit you not! Other engineers may have subscribed to this practice at one time, but ended it as they felt more confident in their abilities to make stuff sound good on everything. (I've actually e-mailed a few mastering engineers asking them about their practices.)

iBuds are fairly neutral and surprisingly well behaved transducers. They do lack bass though.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 07:10:34 AM by purrin »
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2012, 07:20:39 AM »

A quick thought:

IMO, the goal of neutral playback from a music listener's perspective isn't to get rid of the recording's coloration, it's to get rid of the music playback systems's coloration.  So you don't need to use the same system they used.  Hearing the recording's coloration is part of what makes different albums unique and interesting.  Most music playback gear is so colored that all you have to do is get close to neutral and suddenly, you're not listening to colored gear anymore, you're just listening to colored recordings.  The recording's colorations are interesting, beautiful, and IMO almost never harsh.  It's the music playback's colorations that are bothersome. 
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2012, 07:28:36 AM »

Compared to a live performance, everything is colored.  The question is how much and in what way.


The closer I can get a recording to sound 'real' the better in my book.  Most of my gear is focused on differentiating these differences at the very source but I'm a tone and timbre fanatic.  I'm engaged in a personal ongoing struggle with tonal balance and preservation of original information.  Total PITA.


Back to the experts.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2012, 07:34:24 AM »

The recording's colorations are interesting, beautiful, and IMO almost never harsh.


Well....most recordings I hear have something wrong with them one way or another.  I don't just mean treble and sibilance either so let's not blame everything on 6khz peaks.   :P   Reminds me of a track someone linked in the SS forum for ABing FLAC v. MP3.  It was recorded/mastered worse than 95% of what you hear using Youtube. 
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mkubota1

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2012, 10:41:37 AM »

The more neutral the playback system, the more likely it will be true to the audio engineers' intent.

By neutral, do you mean neutral so not to favor or harm any particular type of consumer/end-user playback system?  Or neutral as in a faithful 1:1 reproduction of the original performance?  Because I think the two would be very different things.  I guess the chances are that if you listened to reasonably well-recorded material, such engineered compromises would be fewer if any.  But it would still leave variables like:
 - Studio and hardware (speakers, amplification, room treatment, etc.)
 - Engineer's tastes and personal hearing capabilities
 - Engineer's and artist's artistic intent
 
 How can we account for all of these things?  To me, the cumulative effect of all of these would far outweigh the difference between two similar DACs, for example.
You have to make a distinction between accuracy and precision! Does the client want as close to real life as possible (accuracy) or do they want a performance that will give them a sonic landscape they can closely control and manipulate (precision). This should be the very first question on an artists mind when they begin recording. By the time it gets to the mastering engineer, this decision has been made. It is then up to the mastering engineer to make sure the resulting product will be as polished as possible. We use a neutral chain so that we can hear the performance and manipulate the infinite parameters of sound in a finite way so as to produce the best possible sound in various circumstances.  There is an art to this science and it comes in knowing how far you can push your gear, your ears and the consumers expectations.

The more neutral the playback system, the more likely it will be true to the audio engineers' intent.


I agree with the "more likely" part.  But at best, isn't it just a very rough approximation?  Maybe there needs to be a distinction between what is neutral and what the artist intended?  I think neutral can for the most part be measured and/or identified.  Most arguments over what sounds better seems to really be over what sounds better to that person- not what is more neutral.  But to identify what the artist intended would seem to require one to get inside of another person's head.  It just seems that in a game where people are swapping opamps or upgrading power supplies and hearing differences, there is a much larger variable that need to be accounted for.  Otherwise we might be taking ultra-precise aim at the wrong target.
 
 (BTW, I don't mean to sound argumentative throughout this… I hope I don't come off that way.  I'm getting a slight headache thinking this through myself.  It took me over three hours to figure out this reply!!!)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 05:16:31 PM by purrin »
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LFF

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2012, 02:57:10 PM »

 
A quick thought:
 
 IMO, the goal of neutral playback from a music listener's perspective isn't to get rid of the recording's coloration, it's to get rid of the music playback systems's coloration.  So you don't need to use the same system they used.  Hearing the recording's coloration is part of what makes different albums unique and interesting.  Most music playback gear is so colored that all you have to do is get close to neutral and suddenly, you're not listening to colored gear anymore, you're just listening to colored recordings.  The recording's colorations are interesting, beautiful, and IMO almost never harsh.  It's the music playback's colorations that are bothersome.
 
^ This.
Quote from: mkubota1
By neutral, do you mean neutral so not to favor or harm any particular type of consumer/end-user playback system?  Or neutral as in a faithful 1:1 reproduction of the original performance?  Because I think the two would be very different things.  I guess the chances are that if you listened to reasonably well-recorded material, such engineered compromises would be fewer if any.  But it would still leave variables like:
 - Studio and hardware (speakers, amplification, room treatment, etc.)
 - Engineer's tastes and personal hearing capabilities
 - Engineer's and artist's artistic intent
 
 How can we account for all of these things?  To me, the cumulative effect of all of these would far outweigh the difference between two similar DACs, for example.
You have to make a distinction between accuracy and precision! Does the client want as close to real life as possible (accuracy) or do they want a performance that will give them a sonic landscape they can closely control and manipulate (precision). This should be the very first question on an artists mind when they begin recording. By the time it gets to the mastering engineer, this decision has been made. It is then up to the mastering engineer to make sure the resulting product will be as polished as possible. We use a neutral chain so that we can hear the performance and manipulate the infinite parameters of sound in a finite way so as to produce the best possible sound in various circumstances.  There is an art to this science and it comes in knowing how far you can push your gear, your ears and the consumers expectations.
Quote from: mkubota1
I agree with the "more likely" part.  But at best, isn't it just a very rough approximation?  Maybe there needs to be a distinction between what is neutral and what the artist intended?  I think neutral can for the most part be measured and/or identified.  Most arguments over what sounds better seems to really be over what sounds better to that person- not what is more neutral.  But to identify what the artist intended would seem to require one to get inside of another person's head.  It just seems that in a game where people are swapping opamps or upgrading power supplies and hearing differences, there is a much larger variable that need to be accou nted for.  Otherwise we might be taking ultra-precise aim at the wrong target.
 
 (BTW, I don't mean to sound argumentative throughout this… I hope I don't come off that way.  I'm getting a slight headache thinking this through myself.  It took me over three hours to figure out this reply!!!)
Read my first reply. By the time the mastering engineer gets his hand on the album, the artist intent is well established and should be clear to the mastering engineer. We then polish the recording so that it can shine in the best light possible.  I never master something thinking “Oh….this ‘Scar Tissue’ guitar riff must sound neutral!” I ask myself…what should the spot light be on? Should there be multiple spot lights? Can I make these spot lights shine in a way which brings out the best without washing it out in brightness or making it too dull? Can I make these spot lights dance with it each other in a blend that will not harm the music? Once all that is answered, I aim at producing a natural sounding master.
That is what the artists hires me for. If they are second guessing my merit/judgment then I send them elsewhere. They must have faith in my abilities to properly polish a recording up. This is why I always try to have an in depth conversation with the artist to make sure he understands what he/she can attain using my skills.
You don’t sound argumentative btw.
Your other concerns are pretty much answered above. It comes down to dealing with and fixing what you are given. The decision of multi-tracked vs. minimalist approach is a decision that is made by the producer, artist and recording engineer. It depends on their goals, what they have available and what they can afford.
As far as a mastering engineer is concerned, a neutral system will reveal the flaws the mixing and recording engineers mixed. Sometimes you get a recording with low level hum or a high pitched noise which was missed by everyone else. We don’t aim for neutral recordings, just a neutral playback of what we are given so we can properly judge what needs fixing/enhancement. Sometimes our job is to simply do nothing. 
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Questhate

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2012, 03:51:51 PM »

Good discussion here. It's like a modern day Greek allegory on what is "truth".

If I'm understanding your point correctly -- if all else is equal and the engineer masters on a pair of DT770s and you listen on a pair of HD800s, the music will sound very different than what the engineer is hearing/intending. Now, multiply that by many factors, and then it seems a bit silly to stress over minute differences in subtle changes in, say, rolling op-amps.

I think Purrin brings up a good point, in that good studio engineers have extremely neutral gear, and test on a variety of sources to ensure that their mastering job works well on as many different sources as possible (sidenote: can iBuds be considered standard studio equipment now? :P). Even if you're not getting 100% of the original "intention", the engineer hopefully makes sure that you're getting, say, 90% from most sources. I suppose on this end, you have to trust that the engineer is doing his job correctly (which may or may not be the case), in playing the percentages game.

Aiming to make your playback system as neutral as possible is like playing the percentages game as an end-user. If your system is neutral, likely you'll get closer to the engineer's "intention" with a wider variety of music. Whereas introducing colorations in your playback chain may work well for some music, it almost guarantees that you're off the mark for others (ie. Grado's colorations). I guess this is where some people play the EQ game with headphones, by keeping headphones around specifically for certain genres.

I guess "listening as the artist intended" is more like "probably getting pretty close".
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anetode

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2012, 04:15:47 PM »

Tonal neutrality is difficult enough to attain, but with headphones I've found that one of the more important tricks is to catch on to how to adjust crossfeed to compensate for different approaches to recording/mastering. Some recordings are just anathema to headphone listening and by default sound lifeless if not coming through a speaker and at that point I think it's fair to do a bit of editorializing, through eq & crossfeed, to get to some semblance of a natural sound.

Then again there's also genre. As far as I'm concerned the usual audiophile pretensions of purity go out the window when listening to something like Aphex Twin. Modern electronic music is often layered with distortion for artistic effect and it becomes silly to sit back and worry about maintaining the neutrality of nintendo synths and sped-up samples of old vinyl.
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maverickronin

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2012, 04:41:00 PM »

IMO the only practical way to assess this kind of thing is just by comparing the equipment's input to it's output.  The closer they are the more neutral it is.  If you have to worry about going all the way back to the recoding and mixing process there are too many variables and those variable will be different for everything you play.  It's nearly impossible and impractical even if you could do it.

I focus on a DACs and amps that are faithful to their input and I prefer evidence such as measurements of blind listening tests to back that up.  That's not because I really care about some abstract notion of "purity", "what the artist intended", or just get off on graphs but just because it's the most practical.  I don't really care about those abstract notions for their own sake.  I want to listen to music, not recordings, and you're stuck with what's released, warts and all.  What I really care about is the emotion that the music inspires and keeping the rest of the signal chain out of the way.

Some people think that's kind of odd for someone like me, who comes down pretty firmly in the "objectivist" camp, to say that is about emotion and feeling but I think objective testing is purely a matter of practicality.  If you remove as many variables as possible it's easier to fine tune your final sound to whatever you want.  My goal is just the sound I like best at a price I can afford.  After picking a DAC and amp based mostly on objective data I pick a headphone that I like regardless of whether people consider it neutral or not, mod to taste if possible, and then finish up with EQ, DSP, and filter circuits if necessary.

I prefer that to fiddling with other things like different DACs or amps, tube rolling, etc which are not only more expensive but much less flexible, and precise.

IMO headphones are hopelessly colored by nature and you're best off not worrying about a headphone being neutral because they're too full of tradeoffs.  Making it more neutral in one area will make it less neutral in another.  Pretty much the only way a headphone can be as neutral as speakers is if you listen to binaural recordings with a well crossover-ed sub.
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