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Author Topic: Neutral Playback  (Read 3341 times)

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mkubota1

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2012, 11:20:48 PM »

But keep in mind there is no need for you to subscribe to anyone else's philosophy or sonic priorities and preferences. To each his own.

Oh yeah- I actually subscribe to them all.  While I agree that most material will surely sound better on a neutral system, I don't mind a little coloration here and there depending on the recording or my mood.  I have DT990s, for crying out loud.  And I think a good argument can be made that some recordings played back on colored systems for whatever reason sound closer to what the artist intended.  A very extreme example would be club music.

I think you are over-thinking this.

No doubt whatsoever.  :(

If you calibrate your system at home, it is more likely than not that you will be hearing the same thing (at the frequency ranges you have available) that the mastering engineer heard.

I think that's sort of what I've been looking for- that there is indeed a standard even if it's a range.  My concern is how much those standards are adhered to because I've heard some pretty crappy recordings from some pretty well-established studios.  Also, I wonder how the size of that range compares with the range of gear that we use- acutely colored stuff aside.  Have you ever watched something like a State of the Union address where it's shown on all of the local networks at the same time, and you get a completely different picture from each channel even though there are broadcasting standards?
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omegakitty

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 11:26:37 PM »

Are tubes neutral?

Functional ones properly designed to be.

Are transformers neutral? (ones in the signal path like output transformers, input transformers, step up transformers for cartridges or microphones)

Functional ones properly designed to be.

Should recording engineers use tubes?

They already do and have.  Did you not notice?   ;)

Should recording engineers use transformers? (ones in signal path see above, or should they stick to solid state devices for mic stepups?)


No idea, LFF/Marv

Are even order harmonics neutral?

No, they sound like shit.  I think Marv and myself have come to the conclusion that this even order distortion representing the musicality of tubes is BS.  It's all garbage noise, even or odd.

Or are odd order harmonics neutral?

No, they sound like shit.

But there is no such thing as no harmonics... every circuit distorts

I'm aware tubes and transformers were used thousands of vintage recordings, the question is should they be. There is even a notorious mastering engineer that claims he has EQ'ed albums with just cable changes  ::)

Tubes can be neutral.

Transformers in the signal path - absolutely no way IMO.

I know my (controversial) opinions on the questions, just wanted to pose them to the group. Neutrality is always a fun topic :)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 11:54:35 PM by omegakitty »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #22 on: June 07, 2012, 01:12:17 AM »


But there is no such thing as no harmonics... every circuit distorts

Tubes can be neutral.

Transformers in the signal path - absolutely no way IMO.


Right, but if you can hear it (audible distortion) it sucks.  I'm less and less convinced about the even order euphony argument.  The statement that if you like tubes you like distortion is a BS claim seems to me.


Most tubes ARE neutral, as so far as the ones we've measured.  But most will agree sound different.


Care to elaborate on the transformers?  Some measure 15hz-22khz+.



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Marvey

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #23 on: June 07, 2012, 02:28:44 AM »

A lot of transformers don't measure well. They also introduce phase shifts. It's up for debate whether they are harmful or not, and with what application. The same thing can be said for capacitors in the signal path.

As I said, I prefer not to over think things and just focus on aspects which are easily measurable, most noticeable, and most in my control (my playback system.)
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:31:41 AM by purrin »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2012, 02:31:19 AM »

Nvm, worked it out.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 02:34:40 AM by Analixus »
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grev

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #25 on: June 07, 2012, 10:00:29 AM »

Chasing that neutral reproduction... unless you're making music, I wouldn't worry too much, can do it by ear like I work out notes in very hard passages of face melting guitar solos (ie Buckethead). :P
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omegakitty

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #26 on: June 07, 2012, 03:26:29 PM »

A lot of transformers don't measure well. They also introduce phase shifts. It's up for debate whether they are harmful or not, and with what application. The same thing can be said for capacitors in the signal path.

As I said, I prefer not to over think things and just focus on aspects which are easily measurable, most noticeable, and most in my control (my playback system.)

So as far as measurements go what do you think makes something neutral (I am talking about amps, sources, not transducers)? I think any headphone amp which is primarily dealing in low level signals should measure flat or it's not very good. They're not really dealing with hugely varying impedances like speaker amps have to.

My comment on transformers was nothing based in objectivity, but listening to the effects of already low output impedance OTL tube amps that had OPTs added; even really good ones like Lundahl and Electra-Print. All transformers I've heard have a sound. And doing A/B comparisons with a very good TC amp and discrete class A SS. Not saying it's bad, I myself wanted an OPT headphone amp for that sound.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2012, 03:38:39 PM by omegakitty »
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donunus

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #27 on: June 07, 2012, 10:51:09 PM »

A quick thought:

IMO, the goal of neutral playback from a music listener's perspective isn't to get rid of the recording's coloration, it's to get rid of the music playback systems's coloration.  So you don't need to use the same system they used.  Hearing the recording's coloration is part of what makes different albums unique and interesting.  Most music playback gear is so colored that all you have to do is get close to neutral and suddenly, you're not listening to colored gear anymore, you're just listening to colored recordings.  The recording's colorations are interesting, beautiful, and IMO almost never harsh.  It's the music playback's colorations that are bothersome.

This is my belief too. I love hearing recording colorations and natural reverb from recordings. I just don't want something in my playback system to always give me their own sound to distract from the specific recordings unique quality.
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Marvey

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 11:42:03 PM »


So as far as measurements go what do you think makes something neutral (I am talking about amps, sources, not transducers)? I think any headphone amp which is primarily dealing in low level signals should measure flat or it's not very good. They're not really dealing with hugely varying impedances like speaker amps have to.

My comment on transformers was nothing based in objectivity, but listening to the effects of already low output impedance OTL tube amps that had OPTs added; even really good ones like Lundahl and Electra-Print. All transformers I've heard have a sound. And doing A/B comparisons with a very good TC amp and discrete class A SS. Not saying it's bad, I myself wanted an OPT headphone amp for that sound.


I agree, OPTs do sound very different and can make more of a difference than tubes. (This is why I post on HF for folks who love to excessively tube roll, that they should instead transformer roll.) However I consider what OPTs do outside the realm of FR (and hence neutrality). Maybe their effect sound should belong in their own category, such as "Woo-ee-ness"
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