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Author Topic: Neutral Playback  (Read 3341 times)

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Marvey

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2012, 05:18:10 PM »

How can we account for all of these things?  To me, the cumulative effect of all of these would far outweigh the difference between two similar DACs, for example.

Yes, all those things outweigh DACs. However gross errors in transducers will outweigh everything else. Try listening to Ultrasones. Maybe you like them, but personally I don't like how Ultrasones, as a vehicle for reproduction, grossly re-interpret the artists' intent, even with hip-hop. Granted there are many other factors, as you mentioned, outside of our control. But why let easy to control factors such as frequency response slide into gross error?

I agree with the "more likely" part.  But at best, isn't it just a very rough approximation?  Maybe there needs to be a distinction between what is neutral and what the artist intended?

Yes, just a rough approximation. Neutrality is a standard applied to recording, monitoring, playback equipment. Such gear only serves as a vehicle for what the artist intends and ideally should not be a substitute or re-interpretation of it.

Personally like gear with relatively (good-enough) neutral FR. I find that such works best across the largest spectrum of recordings without me futzing the EQ for every track. As I said, its one of the few things that can be standardized where gross errors can be contained. So why not?

However, if other people like Ultrasones, then that's fine. Just that Ultrasones provide a very poor vehicle for relative comparison.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 05:21:33 PM by purrin »
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arcticears

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2012, 05:23:41 PM »

While I find this discussion very interesting, I look at it as being a little more straight forward.  As I am stuck with what ever is on the  recording, good or bad, the best I can do is have as neutral a system as I can so I can get what is on the recording. I do not worry about what the engineers did or what their equipment is, once the recording is made, that is what we have.  I know that I have the option to change what is on the recording during playback but it is still best to start with neutral and work from there.  And in my IMHO neutral and natural are two separate things.
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mkubota1

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2012, 07:29:17 PM »

Thanks LFF.  I was hoping to hear from you!  So as an engineer, how much confidence do you have that what the listener is hearing is what you want them to hear- especially not knowing what they are listening with?  And if I were able to zero in on some sort of parameter to match what you hear, would that carry over to what other engineers produce?

If I'm understanding your point correctly -- if all else is equal and the engineer masters on a pair of DT770s and you listen on a pair of HD800s, the music will sound very different than what the engineer is hearing/intending. Now, multiply that by many factors, and then it seems a bit silly to stress over minute differences in subtle changes in, say, rolling op-amps.

That is precisely what I am saying (in about 1/20th the amount of words).  Many factors… some not even known.  One of my favorite quotes from HF is from rroseperry:  "I don't think I'm interested in truth, too much of a moving target."  I wouldn't say I'm not interested.  But I can never be so sure.  If the truth is neutral playback or a literal interpretation of the media, I can understand that.  If it's what the artist/producer/engineer wants you to hear, that would seem to vary from artist to artist- even album to album.

Tonal neutrality is difficult enough to attain, but with headphones I've found that one of the more important tricks is to catch on to how to adjust crossfeed to compensate for different approaches to recording/mastering.

I've almost given up on staging with headphones because I get far more realistic staging to my ears with my $65 Creative Labs PC speakers.  But I haven't tried the Smyth Realiser yet or spent serious time with the Phonitor.  With headphones I'm happy if I get a decent 'headstage'.

Lots to chew on… thanks again.
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Marvey

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2012, 07:43:33 PM »

Your $65 Creative speakers are probably more neutral than most headphones! And as you said, they stage better too.


But keep in mind there is no need for you to subscribe to anyone else's philosophy or sonic priorities and preferences. To each his own. I do however feel that it is necessary to state or at least have it be known where someone is coming from when they form in opinion or make an assessment of something.
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anetode

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2012, 09:09:14 PM »

I prefer that to fiddling with other things like different DACs or amps, tube rolling, etc which are not only more expensive but much less flexible, and precise.

And involve a great degree of predictable psychological bias. Much easier to AB an EQ setting or a damping mod and it helps build precise knowledge of what produces satisfying sound.

That and although a neutral, high-performance headphone provides the perfect canvas, sometimes it's just easier to grab a different headphone that will change the sound in a predictable way.

I've almost given up on staging with headphones because I get far more realistic staging to my ears with my $65 Creative Labs PC speakers.  But I haven't tried the Smyth Realiser yet or spent serious time with the Phonitor.  With headphones I'm happy if I get a decent 'headstage'.

Headstage is exactly what it is. For some perverse reason I prefer the presentation in terms of headphone headstage than actual soundstage. It seems like you're figuring out what you want from headphones, neutrality is simply the consensus of perceptual bias.
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LFF

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2012, 09:46:09 PM »

Thanks LFF.  I was hoping to hear from you!  So as an engineer, how much confidence do you have that what the listener is hearing is what you want them to hear- especially not knowing what they are listening with?  And if I were able to zero in on some sort of parameter to match what you hear, would that carry over to what other engineers produce?

1) It's presumptuous for me to say that I know what the listener will hear and I tell this to every client. I can only describe what I hear and what my goal will be for a certain project. My goal is always to have a natural, organic sound. A guitar will sound relatively the same in any part of the world. Sure, the tone and a few other things will change depending on humidity and the who plays it but there is a natural, intrinsic sound to it that makes a person recognize it as a guitar. That's what I want to keep. My reference is always real life.

2) Again, it would be presumptuous to assume that my recording/mastering parameters will match those of others. They don't. All you have to do is hear one of my remasters and compare it to another one to know there is a different reference in mind.

I think you are over-thinking this. One of the reasons test tones exist is to calibrate to a reference standard. Any mastering engineer who is worth his price will have a calibrated listening environment or access to one. If you calibrate your system at home, it is more like than not that you will be hearing the same thing (at the frequency ranges you have available) that the mastering engineer heard. That is why I feel a neutral system is a reference system. It's not meant to be musical, it's not meant to be shown off and it's not meant to be grand or beautiful...it's meant to be transparent, practical and accurate. In the end, those three qualities might make it the most musical and grand system you will ever own or hear but that is a side benefit of having a neutral and transparent system.
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2012, 10:06:05 PM »

Photographers are in a very similar situation.  Every printer and kind of paper will change an image from the way it looks on your screen, and each printer and paper does so in different ways.  Then people look at prints in all kinds of different lighting conditions, especially recently some buildings will have 5 different colors of flourescents all mixing together to form a mess.  So the best you can do is calibrate your monitor to a standard, and make the print look as close as you can to what you want it to look like.  A well color balanced print will generally look good in every (or most) light sources, even though they all add their own distinct color cast to the print.  Because a well balanced print has enough latitude in any direction to be given a color cast and still look good.  Good printers will look at their print in a variety of light sources, until they get to know what a print should look like under a certain standard kind of light.  Like recording engineers listening with different systems until they get to know their system well enough they might not need to anymore. 

I think it's basically the same with music.  Though LFF can correct me if I'm wrong. 
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omegakitty

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2012, 10:15:45 PM »

Are tubes neutral?

Are transformers neutral? (ones in the signal path like output transformers, input transformers, step up transformers for cartridges or microphones)

Should recording engineers use tubes?

Should recording engineers use transformers? (ones in signal path see above, or should they stick to solid state devices for mic stepups?)

Are even order harmonics neutral?

Or are odd order harmonics neutral?

 :-*
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LFF

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2012, 10:20:47 PM »

Photographers are in a very similar situation.  Every printer and kind of paper will change an image from the way it looks on your screen, and each printer and paper does so in different ways.  Then people look at prints in all kinds of different lighting conditions, especially recently some buildings will have 5 different colors of flourescents all mixing together to form a mess.  So the best you can do is calibrate your monitor to a standard, and make the print look as close as you can to what you want it to look like.  A well color balanced print will generally look good in every (or most) light sources, even though they all add their own distinct color cast to the print.  Because a well balanced print has enough latitude in any direction to be given a color cast and still look good.  Good printers will look at their print in a variety of light sources, until they get to know what a print should look like under a certain standard kind of light.  Like recording engineers listening with different systems until they get to know their system well enough they might not need to anymore. 

I think it's basically the same with music.  Though LFF can correct me if I'm wrong.

No...that's basically right. However, there are reference tones one can use to calibrate much like there are reference color tools for printers and reference color curves in Adobe, etc. Reference tones, with a good measurement mic will go a long way into getting something very similar and something that will be repeatable elsewhere.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Neutral Playback
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2012, 11:18:51 PM »

Are tubes neutral?

Functional ones properly designed to be.

Are transformers neutral? (ones in the signal path like output transformers, input transformers, step up transformers for cartridges or microphones)

Functional ones properly designed to be.

Should recording engineers use tubes?

They already do and have.  Did you not notice?   ;)

Should recording engineers use transformers? (ones in signal path see above, or should they stick to solid state devices for mic stepups?)


No idea, LFF/Marv

Are even order harmonics neutral?

No, they sound like shit.  I think Marv and myself have come to the conclusion that this even order distortion representing the musicality of tubes is BS.  It's all garbage noise, even or odd.

Or are odd order harmonics neutral?

No, they sound like shit.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 11:22:33 PM by Analixus »
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