CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion  (Read 5583 times)

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Anaxilus

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High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« on: September 13, 2015, 03:13:01 AM »

I have heard the MSB Analog with the upgraded power base connected to an Aurender N100 via quadrate USB and no doubt it sounded good but I preferred the sharper transients of the Bricasti with the HEK.  Not sure if their transport or network renderer would impact this.  I have similar concerns with the TotalDac but some have suggested this DAC hits harder.  I'm similarly intrigued by the Totaldac Monoblocs as well as the Nagra HD but I'm not yet sure I want to go there.   

Hah! That's exactly how I heard the Analog compared to M1, send I have the Yggy equal to or better than M1. If u heard the new uber duper USB and feel the same as I do relative to the Bricasti, that means the difference relative to Yggy can only be in warm up period or some difference upstream of the DAC itself.

I suspect this character is due to the Yggy's mega-burrito(reconstruction) filter. I can't say exactly for the yggy, but a typical 18000 tap 8x, "preserves original samples", filter would mean a very-sharp cutoff that is (-6dB) at the nyquist frequency [windowed sinc with sinc at nyquist]. This lets everything in-band through.  Unfortunately, material that was poorly resampled to 44.1k will have junk above 20khz that should probably be filtered out.

I'm of the opinion that any dac should offer, as an option for 44.1k, a filter that cuts off sharply around 20k and is out by nyquist (22.05k), I've experienced many 44.1k recordings that were saved by dumping the junk (20k-22.05k). (libsamplerate has such a filter.) There are also cases where such a filter diminishes recordings that don't need it.

Yes, many recordings simply have treble issues, period. Yggy will let it show if its there. On properly mastered tracks the effect is non existent. Any DAC hiding treble flaws consistently is colored imo. If that's what people want from their source, more power to them.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 12:35:08 AM by Marvey »
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thune

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2015, 06:21:47 AM »

Yes, many recordings simply have treble issues, period. Yggy will let it show if its there. On properly mastered tracks the effect is non existent. Any DAC hiding treble flaws consistently is colored imo. If that's what people want from their source, more power to them.
I'm no purist. I certainly don't like hating great performances just because the delivered recording is flawed. Am I supposed to prioritize my hate for the engineer over my love for the music and my fascination with the sonic events captured? Maximal truth vs maximal experience: it is certainly one of the axes that a "one best system" mindset generates. But I think a modern audiophile can have both; a truth chain and an issue mitigating chain. For a DAC to be in both chains it needs to have more than one reconstruction filter for 44.1k material.
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Negura

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2015, 07:16:27 AM »

Regarding the Numerico/Viva, sure it can/does sound good. Lampi do too. However at 10k there is very stiff competition. When I heard the Viva, and granted that result includes the amps, most honestly, I didn't hear something outstanding in terms of resolution for example, which is the job of the DAC, assuming no bottlenecks in the stream. Then again, I don't want to comment too much on this, because these were not at all conditions to properly assess a DAC. I was genuinely interested what kind of technology they are using.

I don't know about Bricasti and it is one of the DACs I am interested to hear it, but the MSB had more precise leading edges than Yggy or Theta. The MSB however doesn't have the most explosive/hardest hitting transients. The Theta did. MSBs biggest strengths are resolution, both macro and micro-detail, clarity, staging and imaging precision. And of course an excellent tonal response. If it's not warmed-up properly amongst other things the micro-detail and timing are affected significantly.

Talking of filters, I've still not had the chance to play with the filters on the MSB yet, as still waiting for the Wifi module. Ah and the other worthwhile option to try out was disabling Oversampling. This had a very significant effect on the MSB Signature 5. Being stuck with the entry level DAC, which the Analog is... there are no ways to set these options directly on the DAC. Meh, but that is life... I guess.

Having no way to know/analyze what the recording introduces or not, I can only comment on what I heard. This could be the recording, something around the DAC processing/reconstruction, even the USB interface or a combination.  One day I might get an Yggdrasil around when I have a very good transport at home.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 08:40:21 AM by Negura »
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romaz

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2015, 09:09:29 AM »

Since we're talking about the guts of DACs, here they are:

Bricasti M1


TotalDac d1-dual (notice the giant copper plate to shield against EMI and minimize vibration)


Yggy (only photo I could find, not sure if this is production board)


MSB Analog
 

If the attractiveness of the internals decides which DAC is best, then MSB wins out but French savoir-faire isn't far behind.



       

Here are the creators of these DACs.

1)  Which one would make the most enjoyable dinner guest?
2)  Which one is most likely to flip you his middle finger if you say derogatory things about his DAC?
3)  Which one would be most capable of seducing your wife/girlfriend from under your nose as you're busy drooling over his DAC?

If any one individual wins 2 out of 3, there is a 66% probability that guy's DAC will be your end game DAC.  If one individual wins all 3 of your votes, you're home free.  Just write the big check and thank me later.
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Negura

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2015, 09:27:41 AM »

I like how the Bricasti M1 is organized. Clean industrial design and nicely spaced out separate boards/transformer for each channel, with separate transformer for the DAC. This probably helps. It reminds me in some ways of my PWD2, including what look like voltage configuration jumpers on each board.

Are there two versions of the DAC psu board?

Based in the UK, it's unlikely I am going to meet any of the mentioned designers (I think Larry@MSB is mainly running the business. The DAC work is with invisible engineers; some say team could include aliens from a different planet - not 100% confirmed. I hope no Ferengi though). I do run into Chord staff, but I don't particularly want to include them in the list. That said, it might be worthwhile to get the DAVE thing around to hear what it can do, or if not just to bash in confidence like with the Hugo.


« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 10:04:31 AM by Negura »
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aive

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2015, 10:15:50 AM »

That is really nice engineering.
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romaz

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2015, 10:19:11 AM »

Quote (selected)
Are there two versions of the DAC psu board?

Dual mono design with each DAC getting its own linear PSU.  The logic board (middle section) used to be powered by a switching PS that was upgraded to a new linear PS in late 2012 and resulted in a significant upgrade in SQ according to Bricasti.  People began using hifi fuses but Bricasti found they could improve sound further with a new wire harness design that did away with fuses altogether and sounds almost as good as a "straight wire" and so they incorporated this new feature early this year.  2x DSD/DXD was also incorporated earlier this year.  All M1s purchased today come fully featured meaning no options and no upcharges.  Unlike MSB which charges a certain rate for a base unit and then considerable sums for their upgrades, Bricasti does not.  Should you have an older unit and decide to send your unit in to be fitted with all the latest features, they charge a reasonable fee ($150 for the linear PS, $150 for the new power harness, $500 for new digital board that is 2x DSD/DXD capable).  They encourage all of their DAC owners to be TOTL regardless of how old the unit and so their charges are designed to be attractive enough to encourage people to upgrade.  I know this first hand because I bought my Bricasti used.

Here is a quote from the Audiostream review that compared it against the MSB Analog and is more or less my impression as well: 
Quote (selected)
The Bricasti Design M1’s most obvious and special characteristic was its stunning reproduction of transient information...The Analog DAC/ Analog Power Base has a more laid-back presentation than the Bricasti M1. The soundstage of the Analog DAC is slightly wider and deeper. The Bricasti has a more detailed presentation in PCM with superior resolution of the acoustic space of the recording. This should not come as a big surprise as the voicing of the Analog DAC was specifically designed for a sound that avoided digital hardness. I don’t find the M1 to be a hard or harsh sounding DAC, but I will go out on a limb and say for complex musical programs, the M1 is more revealing with a greater sense of resolution for well recorded PCM material when compared to the Analog DAC. But many will find the sonic purity and liquidity of the Analog DAC to be irresistible.

What I found even more interesting is the DAC that easily bested both of these DACs by a wide margin for this author was the TotalDac d1 monobloc which he called "no doubt the finest DAC I have yet had the good fortune to experience."  Whether that applies to the d1-dual, I don't know but I aim to find out.
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Negura

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #7 on: September 13, 2015, 10:31:01 AM »

Indeed you're absolutely right. If you read my comments on HF on the Analog DAC, I am not at all a supporter of some of their business policies in particular towards what is included in the base versions of DACs, DAC upgrades and warranties. Many other companies playing around the same game include a more complete service. MSB will probably argue their inputs and stuff are more complex etc... That said, I am not a fan of any companies and trying not to be. The next better thing I hear (and can afford), goodbye old one.

The Audiostream quote is probably quite right, being from Jan 2014. The Quad USB and latest firmware are from around Q2 2015, and while I can't comment on how the Analog sounded back then, quite a few other people did. Since the CS team commented many times the Analog resolution was below Yggys, and more than myself heard that's not the case today (actually the other way around), those "upgrades" must have done something. The firmware was free, the USB module 1.5 kilobuck I think, unless you buy it with the DAC.

Btw: http://www.audiostream.com/content/msb-technology-premium-usb-module-analog-dac#gCTVPOiqt7WQQtkG.97

"Transient detail was better rendered with a greater sense of extension at the high end. The midrange of the Premium Quad was far more transparent and revealing compared to the older module with slightly more presence. Also enhanced was the background silence that allowed micro dynamic detail to emerge with greater clarity. I found the sound staging capabilities of the Premium Quad to truly excel. Thanks to the greater silence, orchestral details stood out in a superior front-to-back depth stage that simply seemed more natural than what I was hearing with the USB2 Basic 384. I felt that the older module had a more distant sound with a slight veil overlaying the music. While the bass attack of the former module was quite good, the new module seemed to be better defined and controlled. Quite frankly, after extended listening with the Premium Quad, I felt that I had evaluated a different higher quality DAC."

What the Audiostream article failed to capture or highlight is that in addition to the Quad USB they are also listening to a newer DAC firmware, perhaps the latest. This is because it's a pre-requisite for the Quad USB to work at all. d

Since my Eddie Current Studio isn't going to be ready anytime too soon, I might shift some funds temporarily into hearing some other DACs. If Marv tells me the Studio is ready way sooner than expected (yeah, right), I don't mind that either.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 12:19:06 PM by Negura »
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romaz

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #8 on: September 13, 2015, 08:15:37 PM »

Quote (selected)
those "upgrades" must have done something.

I don't doubt the quadrate DSD USB is better, I would expect it to be for what they are charging.  I just don't think there's enough technological advance in a modular USB component that can be self-installed by the end user to warrant a $1.5k upcharge.  Having developed this, why even sell the inferior module anymore?  Add their network renderer input which is admittedly somewhat unique but for the price of these 2 inputs alone, you could have bought yourself an Yggy and a Ragnarok.  Obviously, since most MSB owners are well-heeled, this is probably not a big deal but for those of us who seek value, I struggle to find it with this brand.  What they charge for their clock upgrades, for example, is simply ridiculous but I know we're both aware of this unsavory business practice so I won't harp on it further.  Well, I'll harp on it one final time.  Sometimes, the truer value of a component is what they go for on the "slightly used" market.  Here is an ad currently on Audiogon for an MSB Diamond IV Plus DAC with Diamond Power Base and Signature CD IV transport with <20 hours of total use that sold new for a list price of $47,500 and it's being offered for $19,999 or best offer.

https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-msb-technology-diamond-dac-1v-plua-data-cd1v-2015-08-31-digital-33445-delray-beach-fl

This is really the strength of the Yggy proposition -- value.  It takes a lot of money to beat this DAC.  I have yet to hear an uber DAC (>$15k) on headphones and I am afraid to because undoubtedly it will be a low value proposition that will only lose value quickly with time as illustrated above although I don't negatively judge those with the means to do so.  I have had the opportunity to hear MSB's $90k Select DAC on a pair of Wilson Alexandrias as well as the DCS Vivaldi ($35k) on a pair of Magico Q3s.  Obviously, breathtaking presentations but I wouldn't be surprised if the Yggy 2 that comes out in a few years comes awfully close for less than 1/20th of the price.

Quote (selected)
Since my Eddie Current Studio isn't going to be ready anytime too soon, I might shift some funds temporarily into hearing some other DACs.

This is pretty much what I'm doing now.
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Negura

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Re: MSB and high-end DAC discussion.
« Reply #9 on: September 13, 2015, 10:26:05 PM »

Yes, the IV series is legacy as they released the V series. Words goes the Signature V sounds as good as the old Diamond IV, hence the value for the old one. I never heard the Diamond IV, but oh boy the Signature 5 stack really is mind fucking. It is that cut-over point where you think:
a. I can't believe I am hearing all these dead singers alive AND in my room
b. Do I really need to go to concerts anymore

Indeed I am talking speaker rig here.

I am sometimes thinking how it must feel for a 50k DAC buyer to have it obsoleted like that... However people who hit at these budgets are perhaps the same who can fathom buying a luxury car that is worth 50k less as soon as keys are exchanged.

I too have heard the MSB Select, but once the DAC gets burried under a pile of stuff, expensive or not, it's hard if not impossible to make what's what. I heard it on SET monoblocks with Tannoy Kingdom Royals.  It was pretty impressive, but I think I can get more out of some of those components if I could configure the rig, than the dealer did. I am very rarely impressed with showroom systems, even at mega-bucks, because somehow they always manage to miss the point... or are deaf. Or perhaps neither as they have a specific range of products to promote.

Btw I am an Yggdrasil supporter, nothing to disagree with. It's easily one if not the best value propositions I've heard for the performance offered. That said it's not the best DAC I have heard, and that's just that.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2015, 11:59:53 PM by Negura »
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