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Author Topic: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion  (Read 5583 times)

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madaboutaudio

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2015, 04:27:52 AM »

How does the Chord Dave fit in this picture? High End or Pretender?  :-Z
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Negura

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #41 on: September 15, 2015, 07:23:49 AM »

So how did you find the transport to compare to your prior USB streamer from your original DAC comparison?

Better sounding no doubt, with the Theta. A simplified chain and no USB meddling in at any point in the process probably helps a bit. I need to compare it with the MSB Quad module, which is something for round 2. There was absolutely no reason to want to use the USB (which granted wasn't the Quad) on the Signature V. The best sound out of that transport was LAN streaming when it is linked to the MSB DAC via I2S. This makes sense as then both the transport and DAC use the same clock, which is the DAC femto clock.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 08:27:23 AM by Negura »
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Luckbad

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #42 on: September 15, 2015, 07:34:27 AM »

Could be you'll like non-oversampled, or maybe it's something else. It would be a big help knowing what amp you were using on the higher end Schiit DACs, if not multiple.
Kinda loving the NOS-1704 to C-2 via the DI-2014.

It's legitimately making me want to sell all of this stuff off and get a Master 11. Apparently I dig the PCM1704UK.

It's great both with my Fostex TH600 and Sennheiser HD650.

I'd rather have everything in one box if I can help it.
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Negura

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #43 on: September 15, 2015, 11:11:32 AM »

Here's some fodder to get the conversation going:

Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all.

The most impressive statistic to me is that Rob stated (in a video interview) that he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing -350dB, and he continued to hear improvements in depth of the reproduced signal until he reached that point. Even though the analog section does not meet that spec, he was still able to hear the improvement in the digital section by realizing that amazing spec.

http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d6/900x900px-LL-d661dbf6_Dave2.5vagainstnosignal.png

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Priidik

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #44 on: September 15, 2015, 12:33:28 PM »

The impeccable measurements rarely come through based on my experience.
Yulong DA8 measures better or equals anything else I have had (not verified), but sounds one of the worst.
In one instance I was able to put my own finger on something tho. The Soekris that I built had slight nasty grain at around 12kHz. It was signal related pollution, so likely much more dangerous than just random noise.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 01:07:36 PM by Priidik »
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Priidik

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #45 on: September 15, 2015, 12:38:14 PM »

The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too.

Sign magnitude R-2R, like PCM63 or even BB1704 should have similar noise characteristics, if i'm not mistaken, in theory.
Soekris Dam is also sign magnitude architecture, thus noise floor lowers with output. It's backed up by measurements at DIYA. 

he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing -350dB,

This one is on LT-Spice, i assume.  :)p13, but then who am i to tell that Plank's constant can't be ignored.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2015, 12:59:58 PM by Priidik »
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Thad E Ginathom

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #46 on: September 15, 2015, 01:26:00 PM »

an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too.


So, as the signal gets bigger, the distortion gets bigger too. One of the traditionally quoted disadvantages of analogue, compared to digital.

Or, to put it another way... It all depends on the marketing department's choice of words.
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smitty1110

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #47 on: September 15, 2015, 02:17:17 PM »


So, as the signal gets bigger, the distortion gets bigger too. One of the traditionally quoted disadvantages of analogue, compared to digital.

Or, to put it another way... It all depends on the marketing department's choice of words.
Can confirm, Marketing departments are literally evil.

This one is on LT-Spice, i assume.  :)p13, but then who am i to tell that Plank's constant can't be ignored.
To quote MF - "First you get a swimming pool full of liquor..."
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joeexp

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #48 on: September 15, 2015, 02:26:23 PM »

Here's some fodder to get the conversation going:

Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. .

"At its heart lies a new (and in electronics terms, huge) LX75 version of the Spartan 6 Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). The FPGA's extraordinary capability enables a number of key sonic benefits including significantly improved timing and the best noise-shaper performance of any known DAC" ….

1 x Xilinx Spartan 6 LX75 FPGA - on Digi-Key: $125.93 for the DAVE;

The main difference between the Hugo and the Dave is the Chip they are using. Don't they want to sell many of their DACs??

The hell the D/A Chips in the Yggy are 4 times as much already.. ...
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Hands

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Re: High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion
« Reply #49 on: September 15, 2015, 03:28:09 PM »

Kinda loving the NOS-1704 to C-2 via the DI-2014.

It's legitimately making me want to sell all of this stuff off and get a Master 11. Apparently I dig the PCM1704UK.

It's great both with my Fostex TH600 and Sennheiser HD650.

I'd rather have everything in one box if I can help it.

I can understand the desire for a one-box solution, but I'd still rather pick exactly the DAC and exactly the amp I want. I feel like that would be tougher and more likely compromised in an all-in-one solution, but, hey, maybe there's something out there that would prove me wrong.

I'd still like to see you try other multi-bit DACs, oversampled and non-oversampled, to see what you end up preferring. I think the NOS1704 you got is nice sounding for the price, but there is still much to be gained in the multi-bit sphere for you. ;)  It's a long, expensive road if you keep up your curiosity about what else might be out there...
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