CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: Anaxilus on September 13, 2015, 03:13:01 AM
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I have heard the MSB Analog with the upgraded power base connected to an Aurender N100 via quadrate USB and no doubt it sounded good but I preferred the sharper transients of the Bricasti with the HEK. Not sure if their transport or network renderer would impact this. I have similar concerns with the TotalDac but some have suggested this DAC hits harder. I'm similarly intrigued by the Totaldac Monoblocs as well as the Nagra HD but I'm not yet sure I want to go there.
Hah! That's exactly how I heard the Analog compared to M1, send I have the Yggy equal to or better than M1. If u heard the new uber duper USB and feel the same as I do relative to the Bricasti, that means the difference relative to Yggy can only be in warm up period or some difference upstream of the DAC itself.
I suspect this character is due to the Yggy's mega-burrito(reconstruction) filter. I can't say exactly for the yggy, but a typical 18000 tap 8x, "preserves original samples", filter would mean a very-sharp cutoff that is (-6dB) at the nyquist frequency [windowed sinc with sinc at nyquist]. This lets everything in-band through. Unfortunately, material that was poorly resampled to 44.1k will have junk above 20khz that should probably be filtered out.
I'm of the opinion that any dac should offer, as an option for 44.1k, a filter that cuts off sharply around 20k and is out by nyquist (22.05k), I've experienced many 44.1k recordings that were saved by dumping the junk (20k-22.05k). (libsamplerate has such a filter.) There are also cases where such a filter diminishes recordings that don't need it.
Yes, many recordings simply have treble issues, period. Yggy will let it show if its there. On properly mastered tracks the effect is non existent. Any DAC hiding treble flaws consistently is colored imo. If that's what people want from their source, more power to them.
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Yes, many recordings simply have treble issues, period. Yggy will let it show if its there. On properly mastered tracks the effect is non existent. Any DAC hiding treble flaws consistently is colored imo. If that's what people want from their source, more power to them.
I'm no purist. I certainly don't like hating great performances just because the delivered recording is flawed. Am I supposed to prioritize my hate for the engineer over my love for the music and my fascination with the sonic events captured? Maximal truth vs maximal experience: it is certainly one of the axes that a "one best system" mindset generates. But I think a modern audiophile can have both; a truth chain and an issue mitigating chain. For a DAC to be in both chains it needs to have more than one reconstruction filter for 44.1k material.
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Regarding the Numerico/Viva, sure it can/does sound good. Lampi do too. However at 10k there is very stiff competition. When I heard the Viva, and granted that result includes the amps, most honestly, I didn't hear something outstanding in terms of resolution for example, which is the job of the DAC, assuming no bottlenecks in the stream. Then again, I don't want to comment too much on this, because these were not at all conditions to properly assess a DAC. I was genuinely interested what kind of technology they are using.
I don't know about Bricasti and it is one of the DACs I am interested to hear it, but the MSB had more precise leading edges than Yggy or Theta. The MSB however doesn't have the most explosive/hardest hitting transients. The Theta did. MSBs biggest strengths are resolution, both macro and micro-detail, clarity, staging and imaging precision. And of course an excellent tonal response. If it's not warmed-up properly amongst other things the micro-detail and timing are affected significantly.
Talking of filters, I've still not had the chance to play with the filters on the MSB yet, as still waiting for the Wifi module. Ah and the other worthwhile option to try out was disabling Oversampling. This had a very significant effect on the MSB Signature 5. Being stuck with the entry level DAC, which the Analog is... there are no ways to set these options directly on the DAC. Meh, but that is life... I guess.
Having no way to know/analyze what the recording introduces or not, I can only comment on what I heard. This could be the recording, something around the DAC processing/reconstruction, even the USB interface or a combination. One day I might get an Yggdrasil around when I have a very good transport at home.
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Since we're talking about the guts of DACs, here they are:
Bricasti M1
(http://www.ultrahighendreview.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/bricasti_m1upgrade.jpg)
TotalDac d1-dual (notice the giant copper plate to shield against EMI and minimize vibration)
(http://cdn.audiostream.com/images/51814totaldac2.jpg)
Yggy (only photo I could find, not sure if this is production board)
(http://www.tellementnomade.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/yggdrasil_pcb_1000.jpg)
MSB Analog
(http://www.stereophile.com/images/414msb.machining.jpg) (http://cdn.stereophile.com/images/414msb.pwr.jpg)
If the attractiveness of the internals decides which DAC is best, then MSB wins out but French savoir-faire isn't far behind.
(https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR82qUEa0NrIODXHTEKQ4YHvKyO8cbSDYoYyPnpwkAGrxCMFPFI) (http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue79/images/032_AXPONA_Portrait_of_Brian_Zolner_in_Bricasti_room_web_DSC_1844.jpg) (http://enceintesetmusiques.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/salon_hifi_homecinema_111.jpg) (http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/schiit_rmaf_14_2.png)
Here are the creators of these DACs.
1) Which one would make the most enjoyable dinner guest?
2) Which one is most likely to flip you his middle finger if you say derogatory things about his DAC?
3) Which one would be most capable of seducing your wife/girlfriend from under your nose as you're busy drooling over his DAC?
If any one individual wins 2 out of 3, there is a 66% probability that guy's DAC will be your end game DAC. If one individual wins all 3 of your votes, you're home free. Just write the big check and thank me later.
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I like how the Bricasti M1 is organized. Clean industrial design and nicely spaced out separate boards/transformer for each channel, with separate transformer for the DAC. This probably helps. It reminds me in some ways of my PWD2, including what look like voltage configuration jumpers on each board.
Are there two versions of the DAC psu board?
Based in the UK, it's unlikely I am going to meet any of the mentioned designers (I think Larry@MSB is mainly running the business. The DAC work is with invisible engineers; some say team could include aliens from a different planet - not 100% confirmed. I hope no Ferengi though). I do run into Chord staff, but I don't particularly want to include them in the list. That said, it might be worthwhile to get the DAVE thing around to hear what it can do, or if not just to bash in confidence like with the Hugo.
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That is really nice engineering.
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Are there two versions of the DAC psu board?
Dual mono design with each DAC getting its own linear PSU. The logic board (middle section) used to be powered by a switching PS that was upgraded to a new linear PS in late 2012 and resulted in a significant upgrade in SQ according to Bricasti. People began using hifi fuses but Bricasti found they could improve sound further with a new wire harness design that did away with fuses altogether and sounds almost as good as a "straight wire" and so they incorporated this new feature early this year. 2x DSD/DXD was also incorporated earlier this year. All M1s purchased today come fully featured meaning no options and no upcharges. Unlike MSB which charges a certain rate for a base unit and then considerable sums for their upgrades, Bricasti does not. Should you have an older unit and decide to send your unit in to be fitted with all the latest features, they charge a reasonable fee ($150 for the linear PS, $150 for the new power harness, $500 for new digital board that is 2x DSD/DXD capable). They encourage all of their DAC owners to be TOTL regardless of how old the unit and so their charges are designed to be attractive enough to encourage people to upgrade. I know this first hand because I bought my Bricasti used.
Here is a quote from the Audiostream review that compared it against the MSB Analog and is more or less my impression as well: The Bricasti Design M1’s most obvious and special characteristic was its stunning reproduction of transient information...The Analog DAC/ Analog Power Base has a more laid-back presentation than the Bricasti M1. The soundstage of the Analog DAC is slightly wider and deeper. The Bricasti has a more detailed presentation in PCM with superior resolution of the acoustic space of the recording. This should not come as a big surprise as the voicing of the Analog DAC was specifically designed for a sound that avoided digital hardness. I don’t find the M1 to be a hard or harsh sounding DAC, but I will go out on a limb and say for complex musical programs, the M1 is more revealing with a greater sense of resolution for well recorded PCM material when compared to the Analog DAC. But many will find the sonic purity and liquidity of the Analog DAC to be irresistible.
What I found even more interesting is the DAC that easily bested both of these DACs by a wide margin for this author was the TotalDac d1 monobloc which he called "no doubt the finest DAC I have yet had the good fortune to experience." Whether that applies to the d1-dual, I don't know but I aim to find out.
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Indeed you're absolutely right. If you read my comments on HF on the Analog DAC, I am not at all a supporter of some of their business policies in particular towards what is included in the base versions of DACs, DAC upgrades and warranties. Many other companies playing around the same game include a more complete service. MSB will probably argue their inputs and stuff are more complex etc... That said, I am not a fan of any companies and trying not to be. The next better thing I hear (and can afford), goodbye old one.
The Audiostream quote is probably quite right, being from Jan 2014. The Quad USB and latest firmware are from around Q2 2015, and while I can't comment on how the Analog sounded back then, quite a few other people did. Since the CS team commented many times the Analog resolution was below Yggys, and more than myself heard that's not the case today (actually the other way around), those "upgrades" must have done something. The firmware was free, the USB module 1.5 kilobuck I think, unless you buy it with the DAC.
Btw: http://www.audiostream.com/content/msb-technology-premium-usb-module-analog-dac#gCTVPOiqt7WQQtkG.97
"Transient detail was better rendered with a greater sense of extension at the high end. The midrange of the Premium Quad was far more transparent and revealing compared to the older module with slightly more presence. Also enhanced was the background silence that allowed micro dynamic detail to emerge with greater clarity. I found the sound staging capabilities of the Premium Quad to truly excel. Thanks to the greater silence, orchestral details stood out in a superior front-to-back depth stage that simply seemed more natural than what I was hearing with the USB2 Basic 384. I felt that the older module had a more distant sound with a slight veil overlaying the music. While the bass attack of the former module was quite good, the new module seemed to be better defined and controlled. Quite frankly, after extended listening with the Premium Quad, I felt that I had evaluated a different higher quality DAC."
What the Audiostream article failed to capture or highlight is that in addition to the Quad USB they are also listening to a newer DAC firmware, perhaps the latest. This is because it's a pre-requisite for the Quad USB to work at all. d
Since my Eddie Current Studio isn't going to be ready anytime too soon, I might shift some funds temporarily into hearing some other DACs. If Marv tells me the Studio is ready way sooner than expected (yeah, right), I don't mind that either.
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those "upgrades" must have done something.
I don't doubt the quadrate DSD USB is better, I would expect it to be for what they are charging. I just don't think there's enough technological advance in a modular USB component that can be self-installed by the end user to warrant a $1.5k upcharge. Having developed this, why even sell the inferior module anymore? Add their network renderer input which is admittedly somewhat unique but for the price of these 2 inputs alone, you could have bought yourself an Yggy and a Ragnarok. Obviously, since most MSB owners are well-heeled, this is probably not a big deal but for those of us who seek value, I struggle to find it with this brand. What they charge for their clock upgrades, for example, is simply ridiculous but I know we're both aware of this unsavory business practice so I won't harp on it further. Well, I'll harp on it one final time. Sometimes, the truer value of a component is what they go for on the "slightly used" market. Here is an ad currently on Audiogon for an MSB Diamond IV Plus DAC with Diamond Power Base and Signature CD IV transport with <20 hours of total use that sold new for a list price of $47,500 and it's being offered for $19,999 or best offer.
https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-msb-technology-diamond-dac-1v-plua-data-cd1v-2015-08-31-digital-33445-delray-beach-fl (https://app.audiogon.com/listings/da-converters-msb-technology-diamond-dac-1v-plua-data-cd1v-2015-08-31-digital-33445-delray-beach-fl)
This is really the strength of the Yggy proposition -- value. It takes a lot of money to beat this DAC. I have yet to hear an uber DAC (>$15k) on headphones and I am afraid to because undoubtedly it will be a low value proposition that will only lose value quickly with time as illustrated above although I don't negatively judge those with the means to do so. I have had the opportunity to hear MSB's $90k Select DAC on a pair of Wilson Alexandrias as well as the DCS Vivaldi ($35k) on a pair of Magico Q3s. Obviously, breathtaking presentations but I wouldn't be surprised if the Yggy 2 that comes out in a few years comes awfully close for less than 1/20th of the price.
Since my Eddie Current Studio isn't going to be ready anytime too soon, I might shift some funds temporarily into hearing some other DACs.
This is pretty much what I'm doing now.
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Yes, the IV series is legacy as they released the V series. Words goes the Signature V sounds as good as the old Diamond IV, hence the value for the old one. I never heard the Diamond IV, but oh boy the Signature 5 stack really is mind fucking. It is that cut-over point where you think:
a. I can't believe I am hearing all these dead singers alive AND in my room
b. Do I really need to go to concerts anymore
Indeed I am talking speaker rig here.
I am sometimes thinking how it must feel for a 50k DAC buyer to have it obsoleted like that... However people who hit at these budgets are perhaps the same who can fathom buying a luxury car that is worth 50k less as soon as keys are exchanged.
I too have heard the MSB Select, but once the DAC gets burried under a pile of stuff, expensive or not, it's hard if not impossible to make what's what. I heard it on SET monoblocks with Tannoy Kingdom Royals. It was pretty impressive, but I think I can get more out of some of those components if I could configure the rig, than the dealer did. I am very rarely impressed with showroom systems, even at mega-bucks, because somehow they always manage to miss the point... or are deaf. Or perhaps neither as they have a specific range of products to promote.
Btw I am an Yggdrasil supporter, nothing to disagree with. It's easily one if not the best value propositions I've heard for the performance offered. That said it's not the best DAC I have heard, and that's just that.
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a. I can't believe I am hearing all these dead singers alive AND in my room
b. Do I really need to go to concerts anymore
You said it well. That's what we all strive to achieve with our setups although sometimes the expected synergy isn't there and so nothing is a given. Once you do find that magic combination, it's hard not to bite so I know what you're going through weighing that kind of cash outlay. The biggest challenge for those of us so invested in this hobby is that inevitably, the Signature VI will come out and curiosity will almost certainly get the best of us and once we realize the next version removes even more veils, then what? Well, we all know what happens. As long as there is money in the bank, the game continues.
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Signature 5
The signature 5 you speak about, is it the Audionote Signature 5 or?
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The signature 5 you speak about, is it the Audionote Signature 5 or?
MSB stack
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Yes, MSB. V for the Romans and marketing, or 5 for the rest of us.
When I get the devil's stack back, at a time when I have a working Wi-Fi module for the Analog so I can use the same settings on both DACs, I will compare both DACs fed by the Sig 5 stack PSU and Transport.
However so far I already have answered some questions for myself:
- the good news is there is some amazing DAC technology out there today, which produces staggeringly realistic results out of the same good old PCM digital content. Perhaps in a couple of years it will become more affordable on the used market.
- the bad news as usual there will be a newer generation out, but that's life
If the competition in the 10k range stiffens there is a chance they will trickle down a few more upgrades into their entry level DAC from the big-boy game. Just as there is also a chance they will release an entirely new entry-level DAC, but for now they had no plans to replace the Analog.
And yes the network renderer once finalized and working properly - I am 100% going to try it, because I know what the combination of a good streaming transport via I2s can do. That will be a good day to get rid of USB hopefully.
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Ah the MSB.
Id listen to them at one point, but god i hate that company.
One would think that their TOTL, the Select DAC, would have everything included and be immune from their ferrari like addons, but noooo, add ons can bring it up from 90k to 136k.
Fucking POS's.
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but oh boy the Signature 5 stack really is mind fucking. It is that cut-over point where you think:
a. I can't believe I am hearing all these dead singers alive AND in my room
b. Do I really need to go to concerts anymore
That's when the alarm bells start ringing and the BS-meter swings to 100.
I like your enthusiasm but - please stop smoking that crap! lol
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Thanks for chiming in. To your previous comment before editting: I am honest about my experience, and I do not feel it is my responsibility how others feel about what I am saying. It is this kind of experience that makes this hobby so worth it, despite the outrageous costs, chasing unicorns and the rest of bs, and if it beats smoking crap, even better so for me. I will continue to share my impressions and I am happy we do not all have to agree.
Here's some more detail to it: It was with the Signature 5 stack one night with speakers, listening to Queen - A Night at the Opera. I am familiar with this album since I was a kid and have heard it on countless digital. Unfortunately I never had the chance to get anywhere near to hear the band in a live setting. Going to concerts is one thing, but nobody is ever going to get another chance of hearing Freddie Mercury live. I thought I knew it, but it was the Signature 5 stack that caught me out... it showcased exactly why he was such a HUGE musical talent, at a scale I never heard before, and the experience can make one feel very very humbled. Words fail me, and can do no justice.
The cost is outrageous and I am not going to purchase the Sig 5 stack in the foreseeable future, but despite this I am really happy I got to hear it. I also sympathise with the comments about pricing/policy and all that. I don't disagree with you guys.
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You guys should move on to a good quality vinyl setup. The VPI Classic + cart I picked up for the cost of an Yggy pretty much destroys Yggy. If the jump from a Gungnir to Yggy was 350%, the jump from Yggy to vinyl was 1000%.
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That's when the alarm bells start ringing and the BS-meter swings to 100.
I like your enthusiasm but - please stop smoking that crap! lol
One indeed wonders how much you hear the price tag when listening to MSB DACs.
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You guys should move on to a good quality vinyl setup. The VPI Classic + cart I picked up for the cost of an Yggy pretty much destroys Yggy. If the jump from a Gungnir to Yggy was 350%, the jump from Yggy to vinyl was 1000%.
You know I am crazy enough I might just try it. And if only from shows I do have an idea what you are talking about. The only problem is that both myself and wife are a bit OCD about the vinyl pops that are bound to occur. I find it distracting, which is why I am stubborn on digital. My father had a large vinyl collection - it was such a relief to move to CDs from this one point of view.
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The only thing about vinyl is the huge hassle and having to build up your music library again. Keep your records clean and in good condition, and pops, static, etc. with a quality TT setup are rarely an issue, especially on speakers. In any even, you will learn to listen past this. I find people coughing, cell phones going off, and babies crying at concerts more distracting.
I grew up with vinyl so the hassle and occasional noise issues are not a big deal. My vinyl collection is arguably better than my CD collection, mainly because I was willing to pick up random stuff based on how cool I thought the album covers were when I was a kid. I have also been fortunate enough to live near used record shops like Rasputins, Amoeba, and Streetlight Records. Found some great gems in the dollar bin.
The great thing about vinyl setups is that you can tweak them accordingly. There is little or no mystery on what tweaks do what to the sound.
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Obviously, breathtaking presentations but I wouldn't be surprised if the Yggy 2 that comes out in a few years comes awfully close for less than 1/20th of the price.
There will never be an Yggdrasil 2. There's no need for one.
It's called "upgradability." An unfortunately overlooked concept in our all-too-expensive industry.
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The only thing about vinyl is the huge hassle and having to build up your music library again
Haven't got the nerve for sandbagging again. LOL
Apart from how much space those LPs need compared to the size of a Hard-drive.
But - the rewards can be huge!
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Out of interest, is Yggdrasil going to be user upgradable or would have to be sent to a dealer? I opened my Yggy and I am not bothered to do so again as I have figured out which out of the gazillion screws exactly need to be removed. I can see some messing up the cable lead to the front plate.
And the screws into plastic are going to fail very quickly if some boards are retained, but the DAC has to be opened. And yes, there is an user error element to it too.
When some upgrades are in, I am quite sure I am going to get one. Sorting out greyness and sound stage are the highest on my sound upgrade list.
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One cannot possibly take M. Moffat seriously: what's with the hair?! :-00. He definitely didn't spend as much time in a telecom lab as the other 3 ...
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Out of interest, is Yggdrasil going to be user upgradable or would have to be sent to a dealer? I opened my Yggy and I am not bothered to do so again as I have figured out which out of the gazillion screws exactly need to be removed. I can see some messing up the cable lead to the front plate.
It depends on the upgrade.
Past upgrades have been performable by someone who is familiar with working on electronics (we cannot say "owner performable," due to the litigious nature of the USA and the "no user-serviceable parts inside" clause.) Seriously, if anyone says their stuff can be opened by an owner, they will not have a company for long. Because someone will do the upgrade with the product plugged in...in the bathtub.
However, the latest upgrade (Gungnir to Gungnir Multibit) requires new motherboard firmware, which is installed via an internal network socket and requires a specific programming interface. In that case, it has to come back to us, or to an authorized service center that is set up to do it (currently in UK, Denmark, and Australia only.)
Still better than extorting another $10-50k out of people. But that's my opinion. I find 5-figure audio price tags sickening.
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Ha! Who doesn't. I'd rather push you to deliver more (and pay some upgrades) where I'm finding the product has some limitations vs the mega-buck gear and buy another Yggdrasil. The core solution seems to be very capable. Hopefully it's around it that needs future thought.
Yes, I know. It's crazy. You struggle to meet demand for your still freshly released DAC, which was a long going project. But that's all good news for the company medium/long term I'd suppose and every successful company I know is restless in its future plans.
However if I look at the Yggdrasil product from a pricing perspective there's nothing to comment about it, at all. Quite the opposite - that's a lot of sound quality for the money. If we talk about what (some) 10-15k products exactly warrant, one could find there are some good reasons. This is not a rule as there are some ridiculously awful and overpriced things out there. But not being a rule works both ways, in my limited experience.
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You know Yggy upgrades will happen based on past history (Theta). Give it two or three years. Next month or two might be unreasonable.
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Sure. This thread is called 'High-end DAC discussion'. If you don't disagree please drop the 'MSB' tag. The Yggdrasil today is part of this group, only if imo at the lower range of it. I'd like to see the thread develop with comments on both pretentious high-end, and expensive DACs that can pull off a thing or two. Also any lower costing surprises that fit the category.
When I have the time I will investigate a few more things like the TotalDAC D1 or some newer non-cluster-f*** Lampizators.
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The Yggdrasil today is part of this group, only if imo at the lower range of it.
Are we talking high-end or high-cost? If Yggy is on the lower range of "high-end", that would be DACs like the Bricasti M1, PSA DirectStream, Berkeley Alpha 2, Lampi Big 7, Auralic Vega, and the old firmware Analog+Powerbase+384 USB don't even belong here.
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Why not talk both. It's a thread. You have your chart thread space and this could be different. We could actually have an un-orthodox bash at high priced stuff too. Might need to rename the thread accordingly indeed.
High-end DAC & All pretenders discussion.
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High priced but not high-end:
EMM DAC2 (Not DAC2X)
The EMM DAC was originally $10K. Unresolving with smoothed over attacks. Inoffensive to the point of boring.
Ringingears' Wadia 850 or 850?? CDP/DAC
PCM1704 bass. Nice lush warm sound, but really... Had the Teac VRDS mechanism... Just ask Ringingears (or the 6 or 7 other pyrates who have heard this) if he wouldn't want an Yggy over this.
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DAC not high-priced, but high-end: The Theta V A with a good transport. As it happened it was the MSB UMT streamer via AES.
Excellent transient precision, yet explosive, less warm sounding than on an average USB-to-whatever interface, wide open sound stage with superb depth, tight but punchy impactful bass. Great background clarity. Captivating mid-range. No signs of long term listening discomfort at all. Unexpectedly good, but not the last word in resolution as obviously the chips hit a ceiling. Tonality a bit warmer than neutral.
Downsides: Legacy, Very difficult to source one.
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There will never be an Yggdrasil 2. There's no need for one.
It's called "upgradability." An unfortunately overlooked concept in our all-too-expensive industry.
You make me want to buy your Schiit. Unfortunately, I'm a basshead and fatigue easily. The few Schiit products I've tried were very clear and resolving but seemed to etch treble.
Do you have anything that a basshead would love? Maybe you guys could make a better Audio-GD Compass 2 that lets you roll dacs.
MultiBi(t)frost with ESS, TI, Wolfson, etc. plug-ins?
I'd never buy another brand if you made a chameleon dac.
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At first thought: Audio-GD DAC 19 (PCMx1704) + Upgrade to the Amanero combo384 USB module.
Depends. Which Schiit gear did you find etchy? Also, have you heard Yggy or Gungnir or Gumby? Trying to calibrate.
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Ha! Who doesn't. I'd rather push you to deliver more (and pay some upgrades) where I'm finding the product has some limitations vs the mega-buck gear...
You don't need to. He gets enough schiit from me and Marv. I know if he sees me coming toward him at a meet he's thinking, "Oh wtf crazy shit is he going to bitch about now?" ;P
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DAC not high-priced, but high-end: The Theta V A with a good transport. As it happened it was the MSB UMT streamer via AES.
So how did you find the transport to compare to your prior USB streamer from your original DAC comparison?
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You know I am crazy enough I might just try it. And if only from shows I do have an idea what you are talking about. The only problem is that both myself and wife are a bit OCD about the vinyl pops that are bound to occur. I find it distracting, which is why I am stubborn on digital. My father had a large vinyl collection - it was such a relief to move to CDs from this one point of view.
I'm surprised that you haven't really gone in the direction vinyl. I can say that even my modest setup pulls me away from the gumby some nights. Not to mention the joy of finding a great recording randomly when you're out.
Tonight it's Everybody's Talkin' from the Tedeschi Trucks Band. I think this is the best master I've heard of this album (one of my favorites).
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Marvey, I've heard Modi/Magni/Vali (gen 1) on my own setup and Gungnir/Yggy with some non-Schiit amp.
I thought the high enders were bright and the low enders weren't really better than the Titanium HD sound card I had at the time.
I got an Audio-GD C-2 Class A last week and Hands' old NOS-1704 today. It's waiting for me in a box for when the wife goes to sleep.
I also have a Reference 5.32 on the hook in a few weeks if I want it. I need to see how I feel about the NOS-1704 and to figure out if the ACSS connection, balanced, and oversampling are worth it.
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Could be you'll like non-oversampled, or maybe it's something else. It would be a big help knowing what amp you were using on the higher end Schiit DACs, if not multiple.
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How does the Chord Dave fit in this picture? High End or Pretender? :-Z
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So how did you find the transport to compare to your prior USB streamer from your original DAC comparison?
Better sounding no doubt, with the Theta. A simplified chain and no USB meddling in at any point in the process probably helps a bit. I need to compare it with the MSB Quad module, which is something for round 2. There was absolutely no reason to want to use the USB (which granted wasn't the Quad) on the Signature V. The best sound out of that transport was LAN streaming when it is linked to the MSB DAC via I2S. This makes sense as then both the transport and DAC use the same clock, which is the DAC femto clock.
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Could be you'll like non-oversampled, or maybe it's something else. It would be a big help knowing what amp you were using on the higher end Schiit DACs, if not multiple.
Kinda loving the NOS-1704 to C-2 via the DI-2014.
It's legitimately making me want to sell all of this stuff off and get a Master 11. Apparently I dig the PCM1704UK.
It's great both with my Fostex TH600 and Sennheiser HD650.
I'd rather have everything in one box if I can help it.
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Here's some fodder to get the conversation going:
Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all.
The most impressive statistic to me is that Rob stated (in a video interview) that he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing -350dB, and he continued to hear improvements in depth of the reproduced signal until he reached that point. Even though the analog section does not meet that spec, he was still able to hear the improvement in the digital section by realizing that amazing spec.
http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d6/900x900px-LL-d661dbf6_Dave2.5vagainstnosignal.png
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The impeccable measurements rarely come through based on my experience.
Yulong DA8 measures better or equals anything else I have had (not verified), but sounds one of the worst.
In one instance I was able to put my own finger on something tho. The Soekris that I built had slight nasty grain at around 12kHz. It was signal related pollution, so likely much more dangerous than just random noise.
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The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too.
Sign magnitude R-2R, like PCM63 or even BB1704 should have similar noise characteristics, if i'm not mistaken, in theory.
Soekris Dam is also sign magnitude architecture, thus noise floor lowers with output. It's backed up by measurements at DIYA.
he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing -350dB,
This one is on LT-Spice, i assume. :)p13, but then who am i to tell that Plank's constant can't be ignored.
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an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too.
So, as the signal gets bigger, the distortion gets bigger too. One of the traditionally quoted disadvantages of analogue, compared to digital.
Or, to put it another way... It all depends on the marketing department's choice of words.
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So, as the signal gets bigger, the distortion gets bigger too. One of the traditionally quoted disadvantages of analogue, compared to digital.
Or, to put it another way... It all depends on the marketing department's choice of words.
Can confirm, Marketing departments are literally evil.
This one is on LT-Spice, i assume. :)p13, but then who am i to tell that Plank's constant can't be ignored.
To quote MF - "First you get a swimming pool full of liquor..."
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Here's some fodder to get the conversation going:
Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. .
"At its heart lies a new (and in electronics terms, huge) LX75 version of the Spartan 6 Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). The FPGA's extraordinary capability enables a number of key sonic benefits including significantly improved timing and the best noise-shaper performance of any known DAC" ….
1 x Xilinx Spartan 6 LX75 FPGA - on Digi-Key: $125.93 for the DAVE;
The main difference between the Hugo and the Dave is the Chip they are using. Don't they want to sell many of their DACs??
The hell the D/A Chips in the Yggy are 4 times as much already.. ...
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Kinda loving the NOS-1704 to C-2 via the DI-2014.
It's legitimately making me want to sell all of this stuff off and get a Master 11. Apparently I dig the PCM1704UK.
It's great both with my Fostex TH600 and Sennheiser HD650.
I'd rather have everything in one box if I can help it.
I can understand the desire for a one-box solution, but I'd still rather pick exactly the DAC and exactly the amp I want. I feel like that would be tougher and more likely compromised in an all-in-one solution, but, hey, maybe there's something out there that would prove me wrong.
I'd still like to see you try other multi-bit DACs, oversampled and non-oversampled, to see what you end up preferring. I think the NOS1704 you got is nice sounding for the price, but there is still much to be gained in the multi-bit sphere for you. ;) It's a long, expensive road if you keep up your curiosity about what else might be out there...
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I can understand the desire for a one-box solution, but I'd still rather pick exactly the DAC and exactly the amp I want. I feel like that would be tougher and more likely compromised in an all-in-one solution, but, hey, maybe there's something out there that would prove me wrong.
I'd still like to see you try other multi-bit DACs, oversampled and non-oversampled, to see what you end up preferring. I think the NOS1704 you got is nice sounding for the price, but there is still much to be gained in the multi-bit sphere for you. ;) It's a long, expensive road if you keep up your curiosity about what else might be out there...
I still have the Reference 5.32 I can pick up early next month from a guy after he gets back from out of town. I'm very curious what balanced/ACSS would get me from the same dac chip.
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Here's some fodder to get the conversation going:
Hugo and Dave don't use any kind of DAC chip, the analogue conversion is discrete using pulse array. The key benefit of pulse array - something I have not seen any other DAC technology achieve at all - is an analogue type distortion characteristic. By this I mean, as the signal gets smaller, the distortion gets smaller too. Indeed, I have posted before about Hugo's small signal performance - once you get to below -20 dBFS distortion disappears - no enharmonic, no harmonic distortion, and no noise floor modulation as the signal gets smaller. With Dave, it has even more remarkable performance - a noise floor that is measured at -180dB and is completely unchanged from 2.5v RMS output to no signal at all.
The most impressive statistic to me is that Rob stated (in a video interview) that he was able to continue to lower DAVE's digital section S/N until he achieved an amazing -350dB, and he continued to hear improvements in depth of the reproduced signal until he reached that point. Even though the analog section does not meet that spec, he was still able to hear the improvement in the digital section by realizing that amazing spec.
http://cdn.head-fi.org/d/d6/900x900px-LL-d661dbf6_Dave2.5vagainstnosignal.png
Quoting this for posterity. What in the hell. All respect to his psychedelics dealer.
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Quoting this for posterity. What in the hell. All respect to his psychedelics dealer.
I give up. Chord makes no sense. Even though I think some of the other high-end DAC makers do some absurd shit, most of them don't make claims about miraculous SNR.
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"At its heart lies a new (and in electronics terms, huge) LX75 version of the Spartan 6 Field Programmable Gate Array (FPGA). The FPGA's extraordinary capability enables a number of key sonic benefits including significantly improved timing and the best noise-shaper performance of any known DAC" ….
1 x Xilinx Spartan 6 LX75 FPGA - on Digi-Key: $125.93 for the DAVE;
The main difference between the Hugo and the Dave is the Chip they are using. Don't they want to sell many of their DACs??
The hell the D/A Chips in the Yggy are 4 times as much already.. ...
FPGA's are like blank integrated chips. You load a program into them to simulate a real integrated chip. This gives flexibility, but is usually much slow than a real IC. I guess the programming is what they are changing the big bucks for as the Xilinx Spartan would make a really bad paper weight without it. Programming worthy of CHORD prices? I'm gonna skip that one.
EDIT: ug.. gramar adn spleling
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Maybe the military or medical science should use chord dacs for their equipment instead of the ad5791. :)p8
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FPGA's are like blank integrated chips. You load a program into them to simulate a real integrated chip. This gives flexibility, but is usually much slow than a real IC. I guess the programming is what they are changing the big bucks for as the Xilinx Spartan would make a really bad paper weight without it. Programming worthy of CHORD prices? I'm gonna skip that one.
Yep - it boils down to:
"Watts Transient Aligned Filter" vs "Megaburrito Filter"
Fish and Chips or something a little more spicy with freshly chopped cilantro!
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I am listening to the old MSB Analog: old firmware and the old USB input. At home of course.
Haha, what is this I am hearing. It's not very resolving and it has a nut size - in your head - stage, compared to what I am used to hear. It's romantic/smooth /warm sounding, with a muddy background. The transient edges are softer/more rounded. The Theta V A with a good interface probably wipes the floor with it.
You squad were right about the old one. The latest Analog sounds like a completely different DAC in a higher tier of SQ performance.
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@Negura, you really need to hear the TotalDac d1-dual if you're looking to upgrade. I have now heard it and...game over. You should consider a quick flight to France and hear it for yourself at Vincent's factory/showroom.
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Please do tell more. :) How is it vs your Bricasti M1. I might have the possibility to hear the TotalDAC soon.
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I am listening to the old MSB Analog: old firmware and the old USB input. At home of course.
Haha, what is this I am hearing. It's not very resolving and it has a nut size - in your head - stage, compared to what I am used to hear. It's romantic/smooth /warm sounding, with a muddy background. The transient edges are softer/more rounded. The Theta V A with a good interface probably wipes the floor with it.
You squad were right about the old one. The latest Analog sounds like a completely different DAC in a higher tier of SQ performance.
Good to know. Thanks for confirming.
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I am listening to the old MSB Analog: old firmware and the old USB input. At home of course.
Haha, what is this I am hearing. It's not very resolving and it has a nut size - in your head - stage, compared to what I am used to hear. It's romantic/smooth /warm sounding, with a muddy background. The transient edges are softer/more rounded. The Theta V A with a good interface probably wipes the floor with it.
You squad were right about the old one. The latest Analog sounds like a completely different DAC in a higher tier of SQ performance.
Do you know the exact changes to the latest Analog other than the Quad USB? Thinking the changes are more than just the USB. I assume the latest changes probably went up the line along to the Platinum, Signature, etc.
You tried the old Analog without the power base and with the 384 USB correct?
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Firmware.
Just upgrading the firmware on this old battered Analog DAC has had a very significant impact (this is not my personal Analog DAC - my sample had to go to MSB as one of the clocks is out of whack completely). I have to compare the old/new USB inputs at more length, but I would not be surprised if it's the firmware that has the bigger impact. I am used to the PWD2 firmware changes, and although they were noticeable there was a more minor effect in comparison. This is not subtle at all. The Analog sounds like a different DAC: Wide open staging, clearly more resolving, sharper more precise transients, less warm to name a few. So far I have been talking about the Analog with the stock PSU.
With the old firmware I am not sure that I could class the Analog as a high-end DAC. The resolution, transient precision and sound stage / imaging are a bit of a joke comparatively. Pleasing to listen sure, but I laughed. Pejoratively.
However the latest firmware quite firmly plants it as a low/mid mid-tier high performance DAC. I'd say a notch up from the Yggdrasil. I wonder how much of the actual SQ of these MSB DACs is firmware-dependent vs actual hardware differences. With those black boxes they have we never know what's inside.
Next impressions: With the Signature 5 transport / Quad USB & Signature 5 PSU unit. Along some of these combinations it's getting difficult to stop listening to the Analog. And yes I have the Signature 5 DAC here too.
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The whole thing.
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I wonder if the firmware changed the digital filter.
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I have compared a Rockna Wavedream Balanced Signature Dac with a Totaldac D1-dual Dac in a Boulders amp>Wilson Audio Sabirna speakers setup. They were both great in all aspects, but I prefer the Rockna's sound, which has more natural tone and the instruments have more physical presence. I wonder why the Rockna wasn't even mentioned in the thread.
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I wonder why the Rockna wasn't even mentioned in the thread.
Really? You wonder?? I don't. I don't wonder at all that a largely headphone dominant forum with an emphasis on price performance ratios doesn't spend most of it's time trying to decipher and translate the rantings of 6moons latest 5-6 figure audio fancy springing from the dark recesses of Dracula's castle.
If anyone has a spare one lying around, feel free to send it over and we'll review it. Please include an insured return shipping label as well. TIA.
Good chance I may have run across it at one of the audio shows the last three years if it has representation here, but I wasn't stopped in my tracks by the other ancillary gear to catch my attention and take note.
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Please do tell more. :) How is it vs your Bricasti M1. I might have the possibility to hear the TotalDAC soon.
A head-fier is selling his TotalDac d1-dual for a pretty good price and so I am evaluating it. I am also evaluating an Aurender N10 against my Aries. While my bias is to like what I have better, I have to say that both items that aren't mine kick butt over what I have, and not by a small margin. This is the best DAC I have ever heard on a headphone and without question I can consistently pick it out in a blind test (in fact, I have done just this against my Bricasti 5/5 times with 5 different tracks). In this scenario, R2R clearly beats delta sigma. Uggh.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/39/900x900px-LL-39f6c1fa_5a9a9ec0_DACs.jpeg)
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Cool. When you feel ready I am interested in the details of what you found and liked better in the TotalDAC. I always prefer to read member comments to magazine reviews. Your Aries is it the "complete" edition or LE?
Did some assh*** just neg you for no apparent reason? Happened to me the other day.
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Did some assh*** just neg you for no apparent reason? Happened to me the other day.
Nahhh it's me. Some assholes gave me neg points as well so I give neg points to everyone randomly.. kind of revenge if that makes sense.
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Nahhh it's me. Some assholes gave me neg points as well so I give neg points to everyone randomly.. kind of revenge if that makes sense.
Before the forum switch we should see how many people we can max out.
P.S. I wish you people never introduced me to R-2R.
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Nahhh it's me. Some assholes gave me neg points as well so I give neg points to everyone randomly.. kind of revenge if that makes sense.
That makes as much sense as a bag of hammers. ???
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I thought it was obvious i was joking but it seems some people took that seriously... facepalm
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I thought it was obvious i was joking but it seems some people took that seriously... facepalm
Negative points for everyone!!
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I thought it was obvious i was joking but it seems some people took that seriously... facepalm
Emoticons, mon ami, emoticons. Without them it's just so hard to tell. ahoy
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Sorry, I couldn't even think that a so stupid idea could have been taken seriously so I didn't feel the need of emoticons.
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A head-fier is selling his TotalDac d1-dual for a pretty good price and so I am evaluating it. I am also evaluating an Aurender N10 against my Aries. While my bias is to like what I have better, I have to say that both items that aren't mine kick butt over what I have, and not by a small margin. This is the best DAC I have ever heard on a headphone and without question I can consistently pick it out in a blind test (in fact, I have done just this against my Bricasti 5/5 times with 5 different tracks). In this scenario, R2R clearly beats delta sigma. Uggh.
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/3/39/900x900px-LL-39f6c1fa_5a9a9ec0_DACs.jpeg)
Romaz,
Have you ever compared your Aries (or any streamer) with a high end converter (OR5/AP2 and the like)? I continue to wonder how they match up in SQ.