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Author Topic: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?  (Read 9647 times)

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AllanMarcus

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #100 on: September 06, 2015, 07:44:28 PM »

Toslink has enormous amounts of jitter. It's an inherently shitty interface. This is a thing we can measure, it's not up for debate. Although glass Toslink cables are better than plastic, that's still just polishing the turd that is the Toslink interface. It's not because the light is "bouncing around" inside the cable. It's because S/Pdif is not an optical signal. It's electrical. So at the Tx end, the electrical signal must be converted to optical, and at the Rx end, the same process happens in reverse. It's this double conversion process that introduces so much timing error. The length of the cable is basically irrelevant. The shittier these electrical/optical converters are, the worse Toslink will sound. The one Apple uses in their Macbooks for example seems to be of particularly atrocious quality.

Ahh, ok, thanks. I found this on computerAudiophile from "barrows". Does't is sound like a good explanation?

Quote (selected)
I2S is the native format of digital audio for the DAC chip itself, this format includes the following signals:
bit clock, wordclock, masterclock, and data, plus ground return(s). SPDIF includes all of these signals on a single wire, and then requires the SPDIF receiver to strip out the I2S signals, and then re-align them with the DAC masterclock, typically using a PLL circuit. All of this embedding, stripping out, and re-aligning adds unneccessary jitter. By using async USB in the DAC itself, all these extra steps are avoided, and the I2S data stream is created with a single fixed frequency clock, resulting in jitter levels as close to that of the clock reference itself as is possible....
Re-clocking is not the panacea that some suspect it is. Only truly asynchronous re-clcocking, used fixed frequency oscillators, can really address jitter issues. And listening tests even reveals that this type of re-clocking does not result is the same performance as using an approach which does not generate the jitter in the first place (well implemented async USB in the DAC). The problem is that building a true asynchronous re-clocker is very difficult, and costly to implement. Most do pseudo re-clocking, using a PLL-this does not eliminate jitter problems-it just changes them into different distortions (as does an ASRC). The technical details of these approaches are too involved to go into here, but my advice is to never believe marketing materials which claim "jitter reduction" or "jitter immunity". My experience has proven time and again that having low jitter from start sounds better than any "jitter reduction" scheme.

Barrows then refers to this article: http://ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf
which I plan to read.
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camilojcock

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #101 on: September 06, 2015, 10:36:02 PM »

1. Because you are comparing apples and oranges. USB streaming works over Isochronous mode, which works in real time and has no error correction. Older adaptive mode implementations are also especially bad, because the clock is controlled by the computer, and the CPU isn't particularly interested in the level of output jitter going to your USB DAC.

USB hard drives, printers, thumb drives, etc work in Block mode. The data is sent is sent in packets not in real time, and these packets are error checked and corrected. That's how you can copy your Word document to your thumb drive and get a bit-exact copy, without the need for a USB filter. Keyboards and mice work in a 3rd mode called Bulk Interrupt, and they don't need filters either.

2. USB noise has nothing to do with having a "bad" computer. Any channel motherboard from any brand is not designed for ultra low noise applications when there is no demand for it from 99.9% of buyers. Similarly, even the best 80+ Gold or 80+ Platinum ATX switching power supply creates a substantial amount of noise, as does any switching power supply. It's baked into the cake. Aside from the switching noise itself, the very best ATX power supplies can get down to around 15mV of DC ripple on their 12/5/3.3V outputs. Any decent linear supply can produce closer to 1mV of ripple. NO ATX power supply can get anywhere close to that, and the best linears will be under 1mV.

The amount of DC ripple produced by the ATX power supply on its outputs are also not what you actually end up with on the VBus line from a motherboard output. That will be on the order of 250mV-700mV. A typical laptop running on its power brick will be closer to 1000mV. Compare that to <1mV produced from a 5V linear power supply.

Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?

How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?

Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)

It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery

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AllanMarcus

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #102 on: September 06, 2015, 10:45:08 PM »

Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?

How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?

Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)

It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery
Interesting! For those too lazy to look, here's the interesting part:

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DaveBSC

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #103 on: September 07, 2015, 01:04:11 AM »

Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?

How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?

Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)

It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery

Yes. A typical motherboard coaxial or Toslink output may have multiple nanoseconds of jitter, and this can easily be seen on a scope, like on the yellow line below.

It's hard to say exactly how much DC ripple is a problem, in much the same way that it's hard to say that say 80ps of jitter will be clearly and audibly worse than 40ps. There are more factors at work than just that one number. In the abstract though, less ripple is definitely preferable, but more clearly than that, linear is definitely preferable to switch-mode, at least when it comes to computer power supplies. Switch-mode in audio components, when done properly, can be very very good. The Empirical AC Substation power supply for the Overdrive DAC is a prime example.

I'm not surprised that some big mobo companies are starting to look at regulated USB outputs as a marketing feature, in much the same way as a lot of them now include dedicated headphone outputs capable of driving 600 Ohm headphones. I would not expect them however to spend more than a few bucks at most on these parts.

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Luckbad

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #104 on: September 07, 2015, 01:29:51 AM »

My Asus motherboard has TrueVolt, which is basically the same idea as Gigabyte's dac-up. MSI has something similar as well.

I can confirm that my Asus board seems cleaner from the back USB than front (probably because there's a cable going to the front).

https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_VII_HERO/

I wish my work machine had dac-up, but it's a Gigabyte model without it (Z97 Gaming 7). The USB is somehow bad enough that the Schiit Wyrd drops out from it.

By the way, my Asus motherboard has the best Realtek chip and can drive 600 Ohm cans. Sounds like crap though.
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Solderdude

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #105 on: September 07, 2015, 05:09:33 AM »

It should be noted that the picture, posted by Dave, is not a scope shot of a decrapifier where the yellow traces are the input and the blue one is the output.

Would like to see a real one though.
Obviously the Wyrd and Regen will improve jitter.

The Jitter bug is just a common mode data filter + a common mode filter between the power line and ground.
AFAI can see from the little info out there the JB also has part of a common mode inductor in the ground line.
This is bound to cause problems in some USB implementations where the receiver isn't well matched or uses the ground with respect to the (differently) common mode filtered datalines.
« Last Edit: September 07, 2015, 09:44:21 AM by Solderdude »
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Luckbad

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #106 on: September 07, 2015, 06:05:09 AM »

I hate not having measurements, so I used both my crappy old C-Media USB thingy I used to use for my mic input and my Scarlett 2i4 to test ALL of my USB ports.

I remeasured several--including the "winner"--multiple times.

Somehow, the USB output on the front right of my machine is far and away superior to all the others with the exception of THD %, where it is worse than the others. It's still "Very Good" according to RMAA, but not "Excellent" like the other USB ports.

http://www.basshead.club/measurements/usb/scarlett_usb_comparison.html

I wish I could do this decently with my work machine to find the golden USB port there too.
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madaboutaudio

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #107 on: September 07, 2015, 07:42:48 AM »

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Luckbad

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #108 on: September 07, 2015, 07:55:10 AM »

Yeah, he mentioned that in the Wyrd thread as well. I basically used my "Measurements or it didn't happen" line on him. I can't imagine Schiit would tell anyone that would do anything positive.
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Solderdude

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Re: USB cleaner, purifiers, decrapifiers?
« Reply #109 on: September 07, 2015, 09:41:53 AM »

Three Wyrd in chain:  p:8
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603219/schiit-gungnir-dac/2400#post_11897126

So this guy's chain is:

PC via USB > Wyrd1 > Wyrd2 > Wyrd3 >  Peachtree X1 USB/SPDIF converter > MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8Bs > (RCA SPDIF) > GuMBy

Interesting as the MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8B uses it's own clocks (which appear to be standard X'tals) and then 'processes' the incoming data.
The output jitter will propably thus be determined by jitter introduced by the MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8B's crystals.
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