CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Lobby => Head Amps, DACs, Sources, Portable Equipment Discussion => Topic started by: AllanMarcus on August 21, 2015, 05:25:09 AM
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OK, I know this subject is fraught with controversy. Please, let's not turn this into a religious war on the efficacy of the USB cleaning.
Michael Lavorgna has a totally idiotic blog post (http://www.audiostream.com/content/bits-are-bits-fallacy-and-noise-mixed-signal-systems#ldDPUCzJBBohRdlJ.97) about this topic that is just non-sensical. I've given up on AudioStream. Lavorgna is just too defensive and dogmatic for my preference.
I'm interested in anyone has actually used any of these devices, if you have done the A/B testing (preferably blind), and your thoughts on which might actually work?
Not interested in hearing from people that have not tried any of these devices. Not interested in hearing about cables. I've tried the fancy cables and I cannot hear a difference, but I'm over 50 and never had the best ear.
So, of the following a few questions:
- Which do you have?
- Have you A/B tested it and did you hear anything?
- Did I miss any devices on the list?
- Schiit Wyrd (http://"http://schiit.com/products/wyrd") - $99
(http://schiit.com/public/upload/general/Wyrd-front-1000(1).jpg)
- iFi iPurifier (http://"http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-ipurifier/") - $99
(http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/iPurifier_Hifitest-300x218.jpg)
- iFi Gemini (http://"http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/accessory-gemini/") (technically a cable) - $189-265
(http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/ifi-gemini.jpg)
- iFI micro – iUSB (http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusbpower/) - $226
(http://ifi-audio.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/ComputerAudiophileiUSB-300x194.png)
- HiFiMeDIY USB Isolator (http://"http://hifimediy.com/Accessories/usb-isolator") - $29
(http://hifimediy.com/image/cache/IMG_0217-800x800.jpg)
- AudioQuest JitterBug (http://"http://www.audioquest.com/jitterbug/jitterbug") - $49
(http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/JitterBug_300x300_main3.jpg)
- UpTone Audio USB Regen (http://"http://uptoneaudio.com/products/usb-regen") - $175
(http://cdn.audiostream.com/images/styles/600_wide/public/8415regen_0.png?itok=NGWCzWX-)
- UltraFi Aubisque Filter (http://"http://www.ultrafi.biz/untitled.html") - $200
(http://www.ultrafi.biz/_Media/aubisque_filter_med_hr.jpeg)
- Empirical Audio Short Block USB filter (http://"http://www.empiricalaudio.com/products/short-block") - $199
(http://www.empiricalaudio.com/images/products/short-block/short-block.jpg)
- totaldac USB cable/filter (http://"http://www.totaldac.com/USB_cable-eng.htm") - €330
(http://www.totaldac.com/fichiers/USB_filter_black.jpg)
- AQVOX USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply (http://"http://www.aqvox.de/usb-power_en.html") - €98
(http://www.aqvox.de/webpics/USB-Power_2_mt.jpg)
- B.M.C. PureUSB1 (http://"http://bmc-audio.de/index.php/pureusb1-123.html") - $290 (2 meter)
(http://bmc-audio.de/system/html/PUSB1-3LR-2b444f52.png)
And another question. Why aren't DAC manufactures building this functionality into their DACs? Or are they?
Thanks,
Allan
Michael from Audiostream sort of redeemed himself, a little. This article is pretty good, and does point out that none of the USB products will do anything more than help a little.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/usb-accessory-roundup-uptone-audio-usb-regen-audioquest-jitterbug-schiit-wyrd#yczLIMcVpmLhDGdY.97
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I have the Wyrd. To me, it made a difference with the Bifrost Uber, removing some of the graininess...I am now using it with the Yggy but woefully short of data on A/B. Will update when I have more information.
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I use the Bifrost Uber with USB Gen 2 USB but haven't noticed any noise from using USB. However, I haven't had the opportunity to try the Wyrd to see if it makes any difference, but so far I haven't noticed any problems.
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I'm no fan of iFi, but I must admit the iUSB Power with dual-headed Gemini cable did make a noticeable difference compared to dirty computer USB power when I had been using Stello U3, a USB transceiver that runs completely on USB power. Not sure how the difference could be heard with more recent USB modules, so YMMV.
Note that some of the cleaner/purifier/decrapifiers listed here are simply filters that supposedly reduces noise (e.g. iPurifer, Jitterbug), while others completely block dirty computer power and provides its own cleaner power (e.g. Wyrd, Regen).
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Before trying any of these, if your computer has an open PCI-e slot, start with the JCAT card. Part of the problem with USB for audio is that all motherboard USB ports kind of end up in the same place, and none of these external devices can do anything about that. They can clean up the Vbus line, and the Short Block does a very good job at cleaning up the ground connection, but they can't stop interference from say the wireless controller for your USB keyboard or mouse.
As to why these things aren't built into DACs, it depends on which one you're talking about because they do different things. The Uptone, the Wyrd, and the iFi iUSB (which you missed) are all creating new 5V power for the Vbus line, taking the place of the power supplied by the initial USB port. Obviously it would be impossible for a USB powered DAC to create its own USB power, and there's no need for a self powered DAC to power the Vbus line. Self powered DACs can just power their USB inputs, and depending on the USB solution they choose to use, they can remove the need for the Vbus altogether. You can then simply cut the Vbus line, basically eliminating the need for the iUSB entirely.
The Wyrd and Uptone IIRC also affect the data stream, so they may still provide an improvement even on DACs that don't use the Vbus line, and even with cables were the Vbus line has been cut. The passive filters try to clean the existing Vbus line rather than create a new source of 5V power and some may or may not affect the data stream. The Short Block is a common mode choke, and for it to work, the DAC must NOT require any use of the Vbus line.
Because of the nature of how it works, the JCAT card will likely outperform all of these products, and improve the performance of all USB DACs.
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Wow that jcat card costs more than my computer :-DD
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I've never tried using something like this USB extender over ethernet (http://www.sabrent.com/category/cables/USB-RJC2/):
(http://i.imgur.com/ZEBLEPd.jpg)
However, if designed correctly, a set of these (type of) devices should give you galvanic isolation (something none of the other devices do) and the opportunity to inject a clean supply.
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Why aren't DAC manufactures building this functionality into their DACs? Or are they?
Some manufacturers do use filtering, others do even use galvanic separation or some reclocking.
Most designers will just use 'standard' applications of USB receiver IC's.
Some add some components, some make sure impedance matching is correct.
Some designers know how important layout is for any receiver (front)ends others just assume bits will be clocked in well enough and are buffered or reclocked anyway.
The theory is that front ends must work 'harder' and or ground plane noise upsets circuitery further down the road.
Improving the signal quality is supposed to improve that.
Most designers would not even think of adding (to them pointless) extra chips that increase the price and complexity like adding a USB hub (regen/wyrd) as a possible improvement anyway.
Most circuits DO use Vbus filtering but the groundinput can also introduce much nasties which none of these devices address.
So it's a design choice.
Matching technical assests to perceived SQ, brands or test results has proven to be ermmm difficult and fishy at best although some might say the exact opposite.
You mentioned you don't want to hear about cables but think (given your objective approach) those who answer on the actual audible improvements of any of these devices should also include if they hear differences with cables as well e.t.c.
Sort of an indicator of what they can hear which you, admittedly, can't.
Chances are that if these device users hear differences with cables as well as these devices than most likely, as you don't hear differences in USB cables, you are likely not to hear differences with these devices as well... of course YMMV
Can't say anything about possible sonic improvements as I am DAC-deaf (to a certain obvious point).
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Great set of answers. Many thanks. My MB also has optical (toslink) out, and I've tried that too. While I cannot hear a difference between my USB and my TOSLink, in theory, is one better than the other?
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Great set of answers. Many thanks. My MB also has optical (toslink) out, and I've tried that too. While I cannot hear a difference between my USB and my TOSLink, in theory, is one better than the other?
In theory, and often in practise, jitter can be measurably higher in TOSlink (compared to well loaded copper spdif).
I have no numbers between USB and TOSlink, as this largely depends on the implementation of USB and if class-1 or class-2.
It also depends on how 'scared' one is of the word jitter as well and if you know WHAT to listen for.
In the light of possible ground loops and galvanic isolation the TOSlink is better but not nearly as good as 'real' fibre optics when it comes to data integrity/timing.
At work we affectionately call TOSlink a 'light sewer' and dare not speak of it in front of fibre-optic cables.
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A quick chime in here. My experiences here are with the Schiit Wyrd.
I started using USB power improvement devices after I realized that my ODAC and Gamma2 sometimes sounded better hooked up via OTG to my Note 2 than it did via USB to my rMBP.
I had had problems with powered peripherals on my Macbook previously (USB hubs shutting down, Thunderbolt-connected monitors not waking from sleep, etc.). The culprit with the peripheral problems was always the Macbook System Management Controller (SMC). Intel-based Apple SMCs are far too aggressive in attempting to conserve power output for battery life and thermal concerns. This isn't without good reason: Apple products have a long and illustrious history of heat dissipation failures that result in early logic board death.
Sure enough, if I started my music and the sound seemed off, doing a restart + left shift-control-option to reset the controller would result in audibly better sound after the reset. I put a Schiit Wyrd in chain not to get some sort of improvement from the Decrapifier itself but to try to make up for the power management problems inherent in Apple's laptop design. It did this job perfectly fine - but I assume that any decent powered hub would have done that as well.
All that said, over time it has seemed to me that the Wyrd causes improvement on the ODAC & Gamma2 (and eventually the Modi 2 Uber and Schiit Gungnir as well) above and beyond just fixing the USB power issue. Across all of these DACs, there was a kind of tightening up of the sound that happened with the Wyrd in chain. This "tightening up" of the sound gets referred to around here as the "turbo clock effect". Generally, the turbo clock effect is a good thing but it isn't always the case. The Wyrd + Geek Out 450 combo seemed to sound worse to my ears.
I'm pretty skeptical about cable improvements and I haven't heard much benefit or difference there. The only times I'm sure that I heard sonic differences from cables have been when the cable had extra resistance (like the stock cable on the Fidelio X1, for example) or some other obvious problem (the early three button mic cables packaged with the V-Moda M-80 could really fuck up the sound). I do hear some real, substantial differences with the Wyrd though - so much so that I've dropped some money on ordering the Uptone Regen to see if there is any further improvement.
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Thanks AustinValentine. Please keep us posted, and any A/B testing (preferably blind) is also appreciated.
On a scale of 1 to 10, ten being replacing beats headphones with LCD-3's and 1 being no audible change, how much change in sound do you think you hear in your best case scenario?
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Wyrd seemed to tighten up and focus the sound from my various USB->SPDIF converters into my Model S DAC. With my latest SPDIF transport (CI Audio Transient Mk2), it sort of tipped it over the edge to the point where it was almost an edgy, unpleasant sound, so I removed it from the chain. Not a mind blowing difference by any means, and most reports indicate Wyrd has positive effects. Just a few reports where some gear is better left without it. Wyrd is definitely good if you have a crappy USB port.
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I use a iFi iUSB in my office system, where I have a four meter USB cable running from the hub built into my monitor to a Resonessence Concero. The improvement in performance from having cleaner power was immediately apparent when I first put it into the system over two years ago. Lower noise floor, more realistic transients, and probably a few other things I'm forgetting.
At some point I may try an Uptone or a couple of JitterBug's in the home-office system, but I consider that "nice to do" rather than "must do" because the Hilo doesn't use the USB power for anything. We'll see.
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Heard small but noticeable improvement with the Wyrd on my audio-gd NFB7.32. A bit less grain and better timing.
Just bought a jcat so we will see what kind of improvement there will be from that.
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Wow that jcat card costs more than my computer :-DD
Yep, definitely not cheap. In my experience though, an off the shelf DC powered Atom/Celeron J/N board with the JCAT card will match or exceed the performance of commercial music servers/streamers costing up to at least $2500 or so. A much more affordable option is the PPA Studio USB card. The standard version with a TCXO clock is $129, and there's also a new upgraded version with a MUCH larger oven controlled clock for $429.
http://ppaproduct.blogspot.tw/2013/07/audio-grade-usb-30-pcie-card.html
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Great set of answers. Many thanks. My MB also has optical (toslink) out, and I've tried that too. While I cannot hear a difference between my USB and my TOSLink, in theory, is one better than the other?
While Toslink has immunity from EMI/RF, it's a very high jitter interface. Some motherboard ports are worse than others, but none of them could be described as "good." Toslink's support for sample rates above 96kHz is also iffy at best, while USB has no problem with 384kHz+ PCM and 5.6MHz+ DSD.
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While Toslink has immunity from EMI/RF, it's a very high jitter interface. Some motherboard ports are worse than others, but none of them could be described as "good." Toslink's support for sample rates above 96kHz is also iffy at best, while USB has no problem with 384kHz+ PCM and 5.6MHz+ DSD.
OK, interesting. Since I listen at CD quality and have a very short TOSLink cable (3 ft), I imagine jitter is not an issue for me. In fact, I thought jitter only because an issue with TOSLink cables for long runs.
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OK, interesting. Since I listen at CD quality and have a very short TOSLink cable (3 ft), I imagine jitter is not an issue for me. In fact, I thought jitter only because an issue with TOSLink cables for long runs.
Nope. The jitter from Toslink comes from the electrical/optical and optical/electrical conversions that must take place at both ends of the cable. The length of the cable itself is largely irrelevant. The length of a coax S/Pdif cable matters because of signal reflections, around 1.5M is generally considered ideal at 75 Ohms.
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Thanks AustinValentine. Please keep us posted, and any A/B testing (preferably blind) is also appreciated.
On a scale of 1 to 10, ten being replacing beats headphones with LCD-3's and 1 being no audible change, how much change in sound do you think you hear in your best case scenario?
As most people said after, the difference is pretty subtle but noticeable.
Also, my experience with Macbook Toslink hasn't been very good. I'm using a 2012 15" rMBP and the toslink is harsh, grainy, and altogether unsuitable as an audio connection. To put it in context - for shits and giggles I purchased a PurePiper USB SPDIF converter* off of eBay and even that was a pretty large across the board upgrade from the rMBP Toslink when used with vintage DACs and the Gamma2. I don't know if all Macbook Toslink is that poor but the one in my unit sure as hell is.
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* It's a generic converter that goes by a dozen different brand names. Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Purepiper-HIFI-USB-to-S-PDIF-convertor-External-Sound-Card-Audio-Card-/161728454999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a7c46157&nma=true&si=ADVZW%252Fsnew%252F10%252FU2l9bYbkG0voQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 , but I paid $4.00 for it after S&H. It's far, far worse than even a Gustard U12 and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Melodious MX-U8 or Jkenny Ciunas Converter.
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It's nice when cheap things work :)
But... a fail for the HiFMeiDIY gadget. I find it reduces the level and degrades the sound. Sadly... chucked in the rubbish drawer and forgotten.
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It's nice when cheap things work :)
But... a fail for the HiFMeiDIY gadget. I find it reduces the level and degrades the sound. Sadly... chucked in the rubbish drawer and forgotten.
I wouldn't exactly say that it worked. The Macbook Toslink was like poo poo poo and the Pure Piper was like poo. We really need a flaming bag of shit emoticon for more levels of precision.
It was enough to confirm that my Theta and Adcom were being held back by the Toslink connection and that I needed to invest in better converters. So in that respect it did work out.
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Nope. The jitter from Toslink comes from the electrical/optical and optical/electrical conversions that must take place at both ends of the cable. The length of the cable itself is largely irrelevant. The length of a coax S/Pdif cable matters because of signal reflections, around 1.5M is generally considered ideal at 75 Ohms.
Agreed, it seems the under $2 toshiba part for conversion is not the same as a good att type glass optical link. They can sound pretty good but I gave up on them long ago.
As most people said after, the difference is pretty subtle but noticeable.
Also, my experience with Macbook Toslink hasn't been very good. I'm using a 2012 15" rMBP and the toslink is harsh, grainy, and altogether unsuitable as an audio connection. To put it in context - for shits and giggles I purchased a PurePiper USB SPDIF converter* off of eBay and even that was a pretty large across the board upgrade from the rMBP Toslink when used with vintage DACs and the Gamma2. I don't know if all Macbook Toslink is that poor but the one in my unit sure as hell is.
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* It's a generic converter that goes by a dozen different brand names. Like this: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Purepiper-HIFI-USB-to-S-PDIF-convertor-External-Sound-Card-Audio-Card-/161728454999?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item25a7c46157&nma=true&si=ADVZW%252Fsnew%252F10%252FU2l9bYbkG0voQ%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557 , but I paid $4.00 for it after S&H. It's far, far worse than even a Gustard U12 and shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence as the Melodious MX-U8 or Jkenny Ciunas Converter.
So you bought my Purepiper! Yes, it is what it is an early and very low cost converter of usb to spdif.
If I may suggest, I had a Macbook for years and did everything I could to make it sound better until I got a Mini. That being said, I found running any laptop off ac and removing the battery if you can to be better sounding than battery power. Seems counter-intuitive, but I believe battery management processes might be the blame. Also, if you can isolate the switching power by using a low cost isolation transformer like a powervar or oneac and only plug your computer into that gives me a bit more open cleaner highs.
In my experiences, the Wyrd made a positive difference with a Modi 2Uber but only different with some dac and worse with one. And of course, no difference when I used a powerless USB cable.
It strikes me as "weird" that some of my friends use ifi power with powerless usb cables and hear a difference, as did I. But I did not think it was a clear cut "better", only different. My question to him was, are we really hearing the effect of the ifi power or merely all the extra connections and usb cables?
No answer!
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Howdy! A quick and not very educated observation: Using Wyrd out of a Mac desktop to Modi (1.0) and Audioengine resulted in more clear sound and disappearance of distortion at almost any listening levels. To me the effect as quite obvious, not sure if it is just because the Mac USB is particularly bad or what but I did not feel compelled to take it out and reassess after the original A/B.
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Anyone tried this femto grade spdif reclocker? It's $399.
https://wyred4sound.com/products/digital-converters/remedy-reclocker
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Howdy! A quick and not very educated observation: Using Wyrd out of a Mac desktop to Modi (1.0) and Audioengine resulted in more clear sound and disappearance of distortion at almost any listening levels. To me the effect as quite obvious, not sure if it is just because the Mac USB is particularly bad or what but I did not feel compelled to take it out and reassess after the original A/B.
Depending on how bad the distortion WAS, you may have larger issues that may be remedied, but glad to hear the Wyrd is working well in your setup.
Are you doing anything other than playing music when it sounds distorted? And of course, how many other usb devices are on the bus? Is the Mac tweaked?, etc.
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Just some info that one can read through to bring readers up to speed with what was discussed before. The measurements show, these devices do work some voodoo on devices. Unfortunately I can't verify the performance on passive devices like the Jitterbug, Ifi purifier.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=691.0
But stuff like the Wyrd, Tone regen are pretty legit and work pretty well though the effects on different systems differ.
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Just some info that one can read through to bring readers up to speed with what was discussed before. The measurements show, these devices do work some voodoo on devices. Unfortunately I can't verify the performance on passive devices like the Jitterbug, Ifi purifier.
http://www.changstar.com/index.php?topic=691.0
But stuff like the Wyrd, Tone regen are pretty legit and work pretty well though the effects on different systems differ.
I thought the term voodoo implied that there was to actual change in something, that any perceived change was all in the head. Voodoo is akin to snake oil.
I assume you mean that the devices you mention actually add some value.
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Its voodoo in the sense that it should not matter but it does. Repost on ODACv1 with and without the Wyrd. The differences are audible to me too.
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1652.0;attach=7848;image)
(http://www.changstar.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1652.0;attach=7850;image)
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So, audible as in if your try really hard with critical listening, you can hear a slight difference, or audible as in OMG this is so much better?
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Depends on the DAC or SPDIF converter and how good or bad your USB setup is. If you're piping straight from a crappy desktop or laptop's built-in USB to a DAC/SPDIF converter that might be sensitive to USB signal quality, it should be more noticeable than, say, cable changes. Less so than tube changes, though. If your USB output and/or input are good or not sensitive to crappy signal, then any changes might not be noticeable at all. All depends on the hardware you're using it with, your hearing ability, and so on. And that's not to say changes will always be positive.
Then again, this is just based on my very limited experience with the Wyrd. It's not going to be an OMG change regardless...unless your USB output is THAT bad.
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Depends on the DAC or SPDIF converter and how good or bad your USB setup is. If you're piping straight from a crappy desktop or laptop's built-in USB to a DAC/SPDIF converter that might be sensitive to USB signal quality, it should be more noticeable than, say, cable changes. Less so than tube changes, though. If your USB output and/or input are good or not sensitive to crappy signal, then any changes might not be noticeable at all. All depends on the hardware you're using it with, your hearing ability, and so on. And that's not to say changes will always be positive.
Then again, this is just based on my very limited experience with the Wyrd. It's not going to be an OMG change regardless...unless your USB output is THAT bad.
Sorry, I should have been more specific. I was wondering what the level of improvement is for firev1, since he was able to measure some improvement.
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For this particular scenario its a slight difference rather than OMG but you don't have to listen critically to find it. Just makes the ODAC less strident on top and more relaxed sounding, before that I would usually find the ODAC a fatiguing listen at times.
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This is interesting. No idea on cost, though.
http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/2015/08/manunta-m2tech-ready-evo-two-ddc-clock-and-psu/
(http://www.digitalaudioreview.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/m2tech_evo_2_3.png)
http://www.m2tech.biz/it/hifaceevotwo.html
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15 USB/SPDIF converters shootout!
If you really must know all about it …
Almost all Dacs sound better with proper clean-up …
:)p1
http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f6-dac-digital-analog-conversion/15-universal-serial-bus-industry-standard-cables-connectors-and-communications-protocols-between-computers-and-electronic-devices-spdif-converters-shootout-15327/
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computeraudiophile might be worst then headfi, take with a grain of salt
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Here's what Ted Smith of PS Audio wrote about the Uptone Regen:
The prototype PS Engineering asked me to audition removes this limitation, allowing cable lengths of hundreds of meters and, in one setup, miles. Clearly, what I used was not entirely similar to the Jitterbug and other isolators and signal regenerators, though close enough I bring the entire group into the discussion. What are the isolation and regeneration devices I first mentioned? Our Ted Smith explains:
The Regen is trying to generate a USB signal that’s clean enough that the DAC’s USB PHY (the PHYsical layer, the part that drives and receives the signals over the wire) doesn’t have to “work as hard” and hence doesn’t add as much noise to the power supply. To go at higher and higher speeds it takes more signal conditioning. These days many PHYs dynamically change their parameters to better send and receive signals and using those features can use significant current. The Regen tries to take on the work (with the resultant changing current draws and resultant noise) on the input side so the DAC’s PHY doesn’t have to and then the Regen sends a much more consistent quality signal so that the DAC doesn’t make noise in itself trying to accommodate a signal that’s changing quality.
Like jitter it’s another way that a relatively little known effect can end up being manifest noise.
http://www.psaudio.com/pauls-posts/bugs-uptones-and-regens/
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http://www.head-fi.org/content/type/61/id/1439274/width/500/height/1000/flags/LL
:vomit:
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Is that two Jitterbugs and a Regen? WTF...
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I have a tiny bit of static noise in my system. Should I get the Schiit Wyrd?
Or any other?
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I have a Schiit Wyrd on the way. Changstar is pretty pro-Schiit (does that mean we Eat Schiit?), but it has been reviewed extremely well around these parts as a low cost alternative to something too expensive for me to ever even consider without laughing until my sides hurt.
It has its own power supply, which makes me like the idea of the Wyrd above something like the Jitterbug (I have no experience with those), but it's supposed to help.
If you order it from Schiit, they have a 15 day money back guarantee. Might as well buy it and see if it fixes your issues.
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ROFL Mr. Moffat taking shots at uptone audio! :spank:
http://www.audiostream.com/content/manufacturers-comment-26#SE8QA9ZKp76JX1Zd.97
"I would like to thank Mr. Lavorgna for taking the time to review the Schiit Wyrd, with the link in the review to the Uptone Audio REGEN, a product with which I was not familiar. I have a policy of not commenting on the designs of others – this time, however, I feel a need to make objective comments, due in fact to the link to the other product within the Wyrd's review.
It is flattering when another manufacturer builds a nearly part by part copy of one of Schiit's current products, in this case a USB hub based, crystal clock driven, repeater type design with a power supply to drive the USB+5. Uniquely in the Wyrd's case a linear supply (free of switching power supply noise) with high current regulators which really will support the USB spec of sourcing 500ma without hardware to the target device is used. Generalizations of the sonic merits of 2 vs. 4 layer board design are irrelevant at 480 mbit USB2 data rates with more experienced designers.
It is really helpful to me when products I have introduced (or re-introduced) are rebuilt by others with their own modifications added. This is simply because those who matter most always know who built it first.
As far as who wins the Wyrd sound game, I am bereft of words to argue a solid technical case. We built it because many of us liked what it did for the sound – it was fun. After all – this is a hobby. If you are not having fun – stop taking it so seriously. You may try stamp collecting more agreeable.—Mike Moffat, Co-Founder Schiit Audio
Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/manufacturers-comment-26#orEfw0oYJoVoXQoy.99"
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ROFL Mr. Moffat taking shots at uptone audio!
Of course, there is a reply from UpTone
Let's put a rest to this please...
Submitted by UpTone Audio on August 13, 2015 - 11:20am
[Gentlemen: I composed the below in a word processor in-between other tasks this morning. Now going to post it I see that others have chimed in with regards to Schiit’s comments concerning the REGEN. While it is worth setting the record straight, “crapping up” the Wyrd’s review with further comments about this would be distasteful. So although I appreciate the support from REGEN fans, I am going to post the below and ask that this be the last word on the matter.
Thanks.]
Mike Moffat and Jason Stoddard are audio pioneers and engineers whom I have long respected, and I admire the straight-shooting, value-oriented company they have built. (As a serial audio entrepreneur myself, I laughed and cried through Jason’s entire blog/book, “Schitt Happened…”, because I so identified with many of their travails.) I fact, I have been considering picking up the intriguing Schiit Yggdrasil for my own system.
Thus I was somewhat saddened to see that Mr. Moffat used his Manufacturer’s Comment to accuse us of blatantly copying the Wyrd in our design of the UpTone USB REGEN. Such a charge would be of serious concern if true, but both public and private records show this is not the case at all.
My engineering partner, John Swenson, had been studying and writing about (see the series of Q&A interviews right here on AudioStream dated August 2013) issues of USB signal integrity for some time, and the first prototypes of our REGEN pre-date Schiit’s March 2014 announcement of Wyrd (and what appears to be June 2014 first shipments) by several months. Believe me, I felt a big lump in my stomach when I read about the hub-chip-Wyrd as we were readying first production of the REGEN.
So while it is true that both the REGEN and Wyrd use the same model of USB2.0 hub chip, that’s an easy coincidence because of our common desire to pick an older device with less “crap” going on it, and for that there just are not very many. I think the similarities between our product designs and their goals pretty much end there. The REGEN focuses on optimized signal integrity and ideal impedance match—best when positioned right at the DAC’s input jack—while the Wyrd appears to concentrate most of its circuitry on providing very clean 5VBUS for DACs that need it. Their own marketing seems to indicate that inclusion of the hub chip is to help in instances where computer/DAC combos “make weird noises or have glitches.”
Again, with much respect to Mike Moffat and his team, I can promise that UpTone Audio products never have and never will copy other’s work (life is too short and I’m too old for unoriginality). The REGEN/Wyrd overlap is simply a case of great minds thinking alike.
Sincerely,
Alex Crespi
UpTone Audio LLC
Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/manufacturers-comment-26#QMxmgTIdjfuXm2Lp.99
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Note: I added the AQVOX USB Low-Noise 5V Isolated Linear Power Supply to the original post
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honestly i think it's all a buncha whooha, if your concerned, I'd grab a wyrd and be done with it. Won't touch any of the other products, too snake oiley and overpriced.
If USB sucks so bad and these devices magically improve the sound, why not just buy a cheap dap and use the coax out? be done with USB all together.
Ps. Im a wyrd owner. Does it make a differnce? with dacs powered via usb yes, not powered via usb ehhh maybe a little. The point is its 99 bux and schiit makes no bombastic claims about it. These other companies are just ridiculous with there claims.
I thought the audioquest jitterbug was neat for $50 but then I went on there site and saw they recommend adding a second one in "passive mode" they just had to throw some snake oil in there, classic audioquest
http://www.audioquest.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/JiterBug_2-e1433980223537.jpg
:)p13 poo
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According to AQVOX, even if the DAC is self powered, the USB chip on the DAC is likely powered by the USB cable. They have a long list of devices that do that, and a list of devices that do not. Interesting.
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I have tried a cheap DAP (Ibasso DX90) to connect to the Yggdrasil. The sound quality was not even close(inferior) to Yggdrasil USB(ASIO).
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I have tried a cheap DAP (Ibasso DX90) to connect to the Yggdrasil. The sound quality was not even close to Yggdrasil USB(ASIO).
Using the dx90's coax out was completely inferior to the USB gen 2 on my gungnir. Not even close.
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Using the dx90's coax out was completely inferior to the USB gen 2 on my gungnir. Not even close.
Same result as thegunner100 for me except with the Bifrost Uber. I was using an Optical connection and also tried coax, however in my opinion I get better sound quality with the USB Gen 2 upgrade on the Bifrost Uber.
I cannot say if the Schiit Wyrd in my case would improve the USB sound quality, but I really cannot hear any "noise" from using the Bifrost's USB. Maybe if I had an opportunity to try the Bifrost with the Wyrd I could then compare the sound quality and maybe notice something I hadn't before.
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Bought a jcat. Differences compared to motherboard are inconclusive.
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Bought a jcat. Differences compared to motherboard are inconclusive.
How are you powering it? The key to getting the most out of the JCAT or PPA Studio is power. Fed via molex from switch mode ATX is better than nothing, but not great. Fed via molex from a LPS powering the board either via a DC jack or Pico PSU is much better than a standard ATX power supply, but you still have to go through the DC-DC regulators to convert the voltage before going back out to the card, which is still somewhat limiting. By far the best is a direct power feed to the JCAT's DC input jack.
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How are you powering it? The key to getting the most out of the JCAT or PPA Studio is power. Fed via molex from switch mode ATX is better than nothing, but not great. Fed via molex from a LPS powering the board either via a DC jack or Pico PSU is much better than a standard ATX power supply, but you still have to go through the DC-DC regulators to convert the voltage before going back out to the card, which is still somewhat limiting. By far the best is a direct power feed to the JCAT's DC input jack.
Molex through switching ATX psu.
Though about a Sigma 11 or some other LPS.
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The last link in the first post is broken...
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If you are using Paul pang USB, don't use Microsoft default drivers, it makes the ppa card sound excactly like any other USB ports. You have to disable power savings like Paul pang instructed to get the most of the card
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what's the difference between jcat and paul pangs usb cards? I noticed the ppa cards seem to really emphasize clock quality
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Molex through switching ATX psu.
Though about a Sigma 11 or some other LPS.
Yeah definitely give that a try. My VortexBox is powered by two TeddyPardos, one for the board, and one for my JCAT. With just a regular DC power brick it still sounds a bit better than a typical desktop PC, but each LPS makes a big difference.
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The last link in the first post is broken...
Link fixed. Thanks.
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Yeah definitely give that a try. My VortexBox is powered by two TeddyPardos, one for the board, and one for my JCAT. With just a regular DC power brick it still sounds a bit better than a typical desktop PC, but each LPS makes a big difference.
Interested in the Teddy Pardo. If only I could find one on the used market.
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Interested in the Teddy Pardo. If only I could find one on the used market.
Yeah they're very good, and the prices aren't absurd like a lot of "audio grade" linears. Perhaps not quite as good as the gold standard from Paul Hynes, but actually getting a Hynes after ordering one takes like a year. Or two. Or five. I'm not sure if Pardo can do a 12/5 multi-rail output from a single PSU like Hynes can, maybe. I already had the 12V, so it was easier to just order another one for the 5V.
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Looks like AQ JB does reduce noise:
(https://amirviews.smugmug.com/photos/i-sQz6gmL/0/X2/i-sQz6gmL-X2.png)
img source:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements&p=336545&viewfull=1#post336545
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Anyone tried Corning Optical USB cable?
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poo This thread is some cancerous shit, should be on computeraudiphile not changstar :vomit:
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Looks like AQ JB does reduce noise:
I don't understand the eye pattern graphs, but I do understand the final chart. Is the reduction in noise audible to you?
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Anyone tried Corning Optical USB cable?
Archimago did.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html)
I don't think most pirates will value his opinion though :)p8
Then there is a sort-of follow up including the corning.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
Only the data is transferred through 'real' fiberoptics, which has advantages, as in no impedance problems for longer hauls and no reflections in the cable itself.
The ground is still hardwired via copper (the +5V computer side is used to power the FO receiver end but not connected to the USB out)
So there is no galvanic separation which would have been nice as it is an asset to FO, the data is 'reconstructed' on the receiver end but no idea how (well) this is done.
Also no idea on how well impedance matching is on the receiver and transmitter side of the electrical interfaces.
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Archimago did.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html (http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-corning-usb-3-optical.html)
I don't think most pirates will value his opinion though :)p8
Then there is a sort-of follow up including the corning.
http://archimago.blogspot.com/2015/05/measurements-usb-hubs-and-8khz-phy.html
Only the data is transferred through 'real' fiberoptics, which has advantages, as in no impedance problems for longer hauls and no reflections in the cable itself.
The ground is still hardwired via copper (the +5V computer side is used to power the FO receiver end but not connected to the USB out)
So there is no galvanic separation which would have been nice as it is an asset to FO, the data is 'reconstructed' on the receiver end but no idea how (well) this is done.
Also no idea on how well impedance matching is on the receiver and transmitter side of the electrical interfaces.
From what I understand, the corning does not have enough power for certain dacs that require power from the usb cable.
It will be interesting to combine the Corning Optical USB cable with Schiit Wyrd after it.
USB Port > Corning optical cable> Wyrd > USB cable > DAC
Corning will send much cleaner(less emi/rfi) signal due it's optical signaling to the Wyrd, which then will supply it's own cleaned power and clocking to the other usb cable.
most pirates won't agree, but there's certainly some truths behind sonic improvements made by usb audio gadgetry.
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Looks like AQ JB does reduce noise:
(https://amirviews.smugmug.com/photos/i-sQz6gmL/0/X2/i-sQz6gmL-X2.png)
img source:
http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?18311-AQ-Jitterbug-Measurements&p=336545&viewfull=1#post336545
But the eye-pattern got worse.
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Yep, read like two posts down.
Also, Amir...watching him and Arny endlessly bicker makes me want to lay down.
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Yep, read like two posts down.
Also, Amir...watching him and Arny endlessly bicker makes me want to lay down.
Amir & Arny. ABFF(audiophile best friends forever).
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But the eye-pattern got worse.
This why when I hear people say it sounds 'better', my instinct is interpret that as 'different' or 'preferred'.
In my applied subjectivity, 'better' must usually improve upon and retain what was there, not trade off in zero sum format.
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John Atkinson of Stereophile chimed in
http://www.stereophile.com/content/audioquest-jitterbug-usb-noise-filter
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this thread:
https://media1.giphy.com/media/11gC4odpiRKuha/200.gif
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this thread:
https://media1.giphy.com/media/11gC4odpiRKuha/200.gif
I believe there is an option where you don't have to read this thread if you don't like it.
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Hey everyone!
I have an Oppo HA-1 and HE-400i. Every now and then, the Oppo HA-1 pauses briefly (less than a second or so) while playing music. This seems random and I wonder if it has anything to do with the poor power management on my laptop's motherboard. I feel like I hear some noise also whenever this happens.
I've heard that the USB input is poorly implemented on the Oppo HA-1. Do you think I should try a Jitterbug, Wyrd or Uptone Regen to fix this problem? I also have a Resonessence Concero - would it help to use this as a USB to SPDIF converter and feed that into my HA-1 instead?
Thank you for your advice!
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Hey everyone!
I have an Oppo HA-1 and HE-400i. Every now and then, the Oppo HA-1 pauses briefly (less than a second or so) while playing music. This seems random and I wonder if it has anything to do with the poor power management on my laptop's motherboard. I feel like I hear some noise also whenever this happens.
I've heard that the USB input is poorly implemented on the Oppo HA-1. Do you think I should try a Jitterbug, Wyrd or Uptone Regen to fix this problem? I also have a Resonessence Concero - would it help to use this as a USB to SPDIF converter and feed that into my HA-1 instead?
Thank you for your advice!
If you have a Mac laptop, or if your pc laptop has optical, try that. If you want to try a filter, my research points to the wyrd has being the best first option.
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I owned Wyrd for long awhile, and Regen green and then Regen Amber.
Sorry, but Wyrd did not deliver the best soundstage, detailing or background clarity with my iMac, MacBook Pro, Gungnir nor Yggy.
Regen was a clear winner with smaller form factor but bigger price tag.
You decide what is most important.
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Hey everyone!
I have an Oppo HA-1 and HE-400i. Every now and then, the Oppo HA-1 pauses briefly (less than a second or so) while playing music. This seems random and I wonder if it has anything to do with the poor power management on my laptop's motherboard. I feel like I hear some noise also whenever this happens.
I've heard that the USB input is poorly implemented on the Oppo HA-1. Do you think I should try a Jitterbug, Wyrd or Uptone Regen to fix this problem? I also have a Resonessence Concero - would it help to use this as a USB to SPDIF converter and feed that into my HA-1 instead?
Thank you for your advice!
Skips and blips likely will not be fixed with usb decrapifying mojo. You might want to check your system device settings and seeing if you can increase the priority on the usb ports, or turn overall system performance to high, or shut off any power saving modes on the usb ports, etc.
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FWIW, Adnaco makes a number of optical USB products, including cables and PCI cards. The output end can be powered by a dedicated linear supply or even a battery in place of the stock wall-wart, providing immunity to EMI/RF, and total isolation from the host PC. The JPlay devs created the JCAT with Adnaco, which they think beats optical.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0440/8881/t/2/assets/carousel-item-2.jpg?2570290433657213195)
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I owned Wyrd for long awhile, and Regen green and then Regen Amber.
Sorry, but Wyrd did not deliver the best soundstage, detailing or background clarity with my iMac, MacBook Pro, Gungnir nor Yggy.
Regen was a clear winner with smaller form factor but bigger price tag.
You decide what is most important.
A friend of mine has the Regen and uses it in-between an Aries streamer and a Mytek DSD192 DAC. It made a very nice improvement. He just added a pair of Audioquest Jitterbugs and they made an even bigger one (in conjunction with the Regen. There's a thread over on Computer Audiophile where several people are reporting similar "combo" results). Why it works? Who knows. That it works is apparent. Not subtle at all.
We (well, he, as he was the one spending the money) initially thought he might want a single Jitterbug (inline) *maybe*... but the second one (in parallel, shoved into the Aries' USB drive socket) added yet another bump in performance that neither of us could deny. For such a cheap tweak, they can have a profound impact (two of them is like $98 -- cheaper than the Regen by almost half!).
We didn't try it without the Regen in the system. Someday I'd like to, as I haven't invested in a Regen and I'd love to think that it's somehow superfluous.
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FWIW, Adnaco makes a number of optical USB products, including cables and PCI cards. The output end can be powered by a dedicated linear supply or even a battery in place of the stock wall-wart, providing immunity to EMI/RF, and total isolation from the host PC. The JPlay devs created the JCAT with Adnaco, which they think beats optical.
(http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0440/8881/t/2/assets/carousel-item-2.jpg?2570290433657213195)
That's really snazzy. Thanks, Dave!
Have you seen or heard much about these relatively new Optical USB cables from Corning?
http://www.amazon.com/Corning-Self-Powered-Peripherals-Receptacle-AOC-ACS2CVA010M20/dp/B00JOJRF6K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1441387319&sr=8-1&keywords=corning+usb
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Hey everyone!
I have an Oppo HA-1 and HE-400i. Every now and then, the Oppo HA-1 pauses briefly (less than a second or so) while playing music. This seems random and I wonder if it has anything to do with the poor power management on my laptop's motherboard. I feel like I hear some noise also whenever this happens.
I've heard that the USB input is poorly implemented on the Oppo HA-1. Do you think I should try a Jitterbug, Wyrd or Uptone Regen to fix this problem? I also have a Resonessence Concero - would it help to use this as a USB to SPDIF converter and feed that into my HA-1 instead?
Thank you for your advice!
Can you give us more specs for your PC? I've had skips on my laptop as well (using a Meridian Explorer), usually when the system was over-taxed, but usually it doesn't take too many tweaks to clean up the environment so there's plenty of headroom for the playback software to manage the DAC well...
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A friend of mine has the Regen and uses it in-between an Aries streamer and a Mytek DSD192 DAC. It made a very nice improvement. He just added a pair of Audioquest Jitterbugs and they made an even bigger one (in conjunction with the Regen. There's a thread over on Computer Audiophile where several people are reporting similar "combo" results). Why it works? Who knows. That it works is apparent. Not subtle at all.
We (well, he, as he was the one spending the money) initially thought he might want a single Jitterbug (inline) *maybe*... but the second one (in parallel, shoved into the Aries' USB drive socket) added yet another bump in performance that neither of us could deny. For such a cheap tweak, they can have a profound impact (two of them is like $98 -- cheaper than the Regen by almost half!).
We didn't try it without the Regen in the system. Someday I'd like to, as I haven't invested in a Regen and I'd love to think that it's somehow superfluous.
So, can you just unplug the second jitterbug while the music is playing and hear a difference?
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I owned Wyrd for long awhile, and Regen green and then Regen Amber.
Sorry, but Wyrd did not deliver the best soundstage, detailing or background clarity with my iMac, MacBook Pro, Gungnir nor Yggy.
Regen was a clear winner with smaller form factor but bigger price tag.
You decide what is most important.
Agreed. I re-plugged my Wyrd after using the REGEN for a couple months. It does reduce the "digital edges" in the sound and makes for a more fluid delivery, but the imaging is fuzzy. I never considered the Wyrd a clear upgrade to the sound and certainly not what I would expect of "Turbo-clock effect" (maybe it's this particular Wyrd?).
The REGEN has been a hit with both my work computer and Aries setup, with any DAC.
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coming next?
https://twitter.com/ifi_audio/status/639907521470328832
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Moving Target Indication, Pulse Doppler Signal Processing and filtering, and maybe TI:Sapphire Lasers are my guesses.
p;)
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Skips and blips likely will not be fixed with usb decrapifying mojo. You might want to check your system device settings and seeing if you can increase the priority on the usb ports, or turn overall system performance to high, or shut off any power saving modes on the usb ports, etc.
Thanks man. I checked my power settings and USB selective suspend setting was already disabled. However, I noticed that the power management of the USB root hub was enabled (turn off to save power), so I turned that off.
Since then, I haven't noticed any short blips in audio, so perhaps that was my problem after all? I guess I can save some money and skip the USB cleaners then, haha.
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Does the Modi 2 uber draw any usb power?
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Does the Modi 2 uber draw any usb power?
not sure if it does draw power but a "power leg less" usb cable does not work. So it may need power to do a "handshake" at least.
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So, can you just unplug the second jitterbug while the music is playing and hear a difference?
yup. and plug it back in to get it back. in his loudspeaker system it wasn't a subtle change.
i had less luck with a simpler chain and headphones (Z7 or Nighthawk + GO1k (v1)). 1 JB was a nice bump, 2nd in parallel was (maybe?) a bit better, but not $50 better. varies by system.
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yup. and plug it back in to get it back. in his loudspeaker system it wasn't a subtle change.
i had less luck with a simpler chain and headphones (Z7 or Nighthawk + GO1k (v1)). 1 JB was a nice bump, 2nd in parallel was (maybe?) a bit better, but not $50 better. varies by system.
Thank Jer. Can you try one thing? Remove the in-line JitterBug and just try the other one? I have to admit, I'm just curious.
Also, I'm really curious if you can hear a difference between the JitterBug "enhanced" system vs. a TOSLink cable.
I'll have an opportunity to at least see a JB at RMAF, and hopefully hear system with them.
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Hi guys, this is my first post, I want to share my thoughts.
1. How come a digital audio signal, which is rarely over 1MB/s (0.8 MB/s for DSD128), can be easily distorted and needs special purifiers in order to secure the integrity, when a USB3 SSD hard drive which uses 100-200 MB/s can get tons of data without altering it?
2. Im aware that you can get noise from the USB power, and it depends on the design of the dac/amp/usb reciever, but, if you have usb noise chances are you have a bad computer, maybe something old with an oem psu and a low end mobo, there is a huge difference between that and a propper 80+gold psu with a decent brand motherboard, I build computers and I know good components and configuration can make a difference in audio for instance. (maybe a good power regulator if you have mains noise)
3. I think we can test these purifiers by conecting the purifiers out back to the pc and comparing the data.
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Hi guys, this is my first post, I want to share my thoughts.
1. How come a digital audio signal, which is rarely over 1MB/s (0.8 MB/s for DSD128), can be easily distorted and needs special purifiers in order to secure the integrity, when a USB3 SSD hard drive which uses 100-200 MB/s can get tons of data without altering it?
2. Im aware that you can get noise from the USB power, and it depends on the design of the dac/amp/usb reciever, but, if you have usb noise chances are you have a bad computer, maybe something old with an oem psu and a low end mobo, there is a huge difference between that and a propper 80+gold psu with a decent brand motherboard, I build computers and I know good components and configuration can make a difference in audio for instance. (maybe a good power regulator if you have mains noise)
3. I think we can test these purifiers by conecting the purifiers out back to the pc and comparing the data.
One theory is bits is bits. The other theory is if is sounds better, it sounds better.
I think when you copy data to a drive, you get error checking, and the timing of the bits doesn't matter. With audio, both of those matter.
There is a post earlier where a guy measure distortion and found less with a filter
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Thank Jer. Can you try one thing? Remove the in-line JitterBug and just try the other one? I have to admit, I'm just curious.
Also, I'm really curious if you can hear a difference between the JitterBug "enhanced" system vs. a TOSLink cable.
I'll have an opportunity to at least see a JB at RMAF, and hopefully hear system with them.
Strangely enough, that's how we started the adventure. My friend's system is a bit fickle (the Aries and the Mytek in concert often develop "sync-lock" issues) and he was wary of doing too many disconnections. We started with one in the secondary port (no cable attached) and it made a nice impact -- a much bigger one than I was expecting, as I'd always tried them inline first and then added from there. To my ears, a single JB in the secondary port manifested ~40% of the overall delta with two inserted. He described it more like 50/50. Being his system, I knew better than to argue with what his ears were telling him in his own house. At the end of the day, 50/50 or 60/40 is essentially told us the same thing. Both of us heard worthwhile differences each way. ;)
edit: Regarding TOSlink, that wasn't an option he wanted to explore having given up on the Mytek's TOSLink port a long time ago in favor of a Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB and then a Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB cable. The USB just sounds so much better. Speculating: perhaps due to jitter in all the optical<->digital translations?
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edit: Regarding TOSlink, that wasn't an option he wanted to explore having given up on the Mytek's TOSLink port a long time ago in favor of a Wireworld Platinum Starlight USB and then a Light Harmonic Lightspeed USB cable. The USB just sounds so much better. Speculating: perhaps due to jitter in all the optical<->digital translations?
Thanks for the info. Highly unlikely the toslink issues are rated so jitter, unless you have a 50' cable. Even then, it's unlikely. People take about a jitter with toslink, but physics tells us the chance of the light bouncing around inside the cable in such a way that would affect the timing is very slim, especially in a short cable. It. Ore likely the resolution was set at different rates for his toslink vs his USB. Even more likely it was placebo effect
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toslink does have higher measured jitter than spdif even at 3' or likely even 1'. Whether you want to argue audibility is another thing, but the measured difference is there as a matter of fact.
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toslink does have higher measured jitter than spdif even at 3' or likely even 1'. Whether you want to argue audibility is another thing, but the measured difference is there as a matter of fact.
Er, toslink is S/PDIF, as is 75ohm coax. S/PDIF is a software layer (the protocol, if you will).
BTW, interesting article on jitter from nwavguy
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html
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Er, toslink is S/PDIF, as is 75ohm coax. S/PDIF is a software layer (the protocol, if you will).
BTW, interesting article on jitter from nwavguy
http://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/02/jitter-does-it-matter.html
I say SPDIF because it's better than saying RCA. Obviously when I compare toslink to spdif I'm not comparing it to itself so no need to be pedantic when you obviously understand the point being made.
Please don't ever link a nwavloser link to me again. Keep that dougself garbage away from me. Thx a bunch. It's nice for people that can't think for themselves looking for audio jesus or those that lack critical hearing experience.
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I say SPDIF because it's better than saying RCA. Obviously when I compare toslink to spdif I'm not comparing it to itself so no need to be pedantic when you obviously understand the point being made.
Please don't ever link a nwavloser link to me again. Keep that dougself garbage away from me. Thx a bunch. It's nice for people that can't think for themselves looking for audio jesus or those that lack critical hearing experience.
LOL yeah. All hail our Messiah !
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Hold hands over ears, close eyes and repeat... Optical cables cause jitter Optical cables cause jitter Optical cables cause jitter Optical cables cause jitter Optical cables cause jitter :)p8 . <Cross-posted: insert "audible">
Tell you what, though: bend them a bit too much and they do indeed sound bad. I thought I'd broken one, but when I pulled the box a bit further from the wall, it was fine.
What is it with USB Audio? If all the bad stuff is true, then, notwithstanding the fact that it works just fine for all other values of "Universal," when it comes to Audio, it is just plain broken. So why on earth is it becoming the almost-defacto choice for carrying audio? Until recently, it was not the choice of a lot of pro/semi-pro/home-studio gear: Firewire was. So why has non-pro audio gone all usbacious on us? Has it all headed, unstoppably, down the wrong path?
I'm a bits-are-bits man. Have I never had any [attributed to] USB problems? Wish I could say so, but it wouldn't be true.
Did I ever experience glitches and variable sound quality with my Firewire box? Getting it to work with Linux was a tears of blood job, oh and the DPC latency problem with windows on my previous PC, but that affected all audio and is why I got rid of the machine.
My answers to all the USB questions: Yes, No, and Maybe. But most of all... why?
Please don't ever link a nwavloser link to me again. Keep that dougself garbage away from me. Thx a bunch. It's nice for people that can't think for themselves looking for audio jesus or those that lack critical hearing experience.
And is NwAvGuy hiding in my outhouse? Ahh... questions... questions*...
(I think he's holed up with Assange in London's Ecuador Embassy. I guess that puts Ecuador off Anaxilus's holiday list)
*No... only cats get refugee status here,
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Hi guys, this is my first post, I want to share my thoughts.
1. How come a digital audio signal, which is rarely over 1MB/s (0.8 MB/s for DSD128), can be easily distorted and needs special purifiers in order to secure the integrity, when a USB3 SSD hard drive which uses 100-200 MB/s can get tons of data without altering it?
2. Im aware that you can get noise from the USB power, and it depends on the design of the dac/amp/usb reciever, but, if you have usb noise chances are you have a bad computer, maybe something old with an oem psu and a low end mobo, there is a huge difference between that and a propper 80+gold psu with a decent brand motherboard, I build computers and I know good components and configuration can make a difference in audio for instance. (maybe a good power regulator if you have mains noise)
3. I think we can test these purifiers by conecting the purifiers out back to the pc and comparing the data.
1. Because you are comparing apples and oranges. USB streaming works over Isochronous mode, which works in real time and has no error correction. Older adaptive mode implementations are also especially bad, because the clock is controlled by the computer, and the CPU isn't particularly interested in the level of output jitter going to your USB DAC.
USB hard drives, printers, thumb drives, etc work in Block mode. The data is sent is sent in packets not in real time, and these packets are error checked and corrected. That's how you can copy your Word document to your thumb drive and get a bit-exact copy, without the need for a USB filter. Keyboards and mice work in a 3rd mode called Bulk Interrupt, and they don't need filters either.
2. USB noise has nothing to do with having a "bad" computer. Any channel motherboard from any brand is not designed for ultra low noise applications when there is no demand for it from 99.9% of buyers. Similarly, even the best 80+ Gold or 80+ Platinum ATX switching power supply creates a substantial amount of noise, as does any switching power supply. It's baked into the cake. Aside from the switching noise itself, the very best ATX power supplies can get down to around 15mV of DC ripple on their 12/5/3.3V outputs. Any decent linear supply can produce closer to 1mV of ripple. NO ATX power supply can get anywhere close to that, and the best linears will be under 1mV.
The amount of DC ripple produced by the ATX power supply on its outputs are also not what you actually end up with on the VBus line from a motherboard output. That will be on the order of 250mV-700mV. A typical laptop running on its power brick will be closer to 1000mV. Compare that to <1mV produced from a 5V linear power supply.
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Thanks for the info. Highly unlikely the toslink issues are rated so jitter, unless you have a 50' cable. Even then, it's unlikely. People take about a jitter with toslink, but physics tells us the chance of the light bouncing around inside the cable in such a way that would affect the timing is very slim, especially in a short cable. It. Ore likely the resolution was set at different rates for his toslink vs his USB. Even more likely it was placebo effect
Toslink has enormous amounts of jitter. It's an inherently shitty interface. This is a thing we can measure, it's not up for debate. Although glass Toslink cables are better than plastic, that's still just polishing the turd that is the Toslink interface. It's not because the light is "bouncing around" inside the cable. It's because S/Pdif is not an optical signal. It's electrical. So at the Tx end, the electrical signal must be converted to optical, and at the Rx end, the same process happens in reverse. It's this double conversion process that introduces so much timing error. The length of the cable is basically irrelevant. The shittier these electrical/optical converters are, the worse Toslink will sound. The one Apple uses in their Macbooks for example seems to be of particularly atrocious quality.
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Toslink has enormous amounts of jitter. It's an inherently shitty interface. This is a thing we can measure, it's not up for debate. Although glass Toslink cables are better than plastic, that's still just polishing the turd that is the Toslink interface. It's not because the light is "bouncing around" inside the cable. It's because S/Pdif is not an optical signal. It's electrical. So at the Tx end, the electrical signal must be converted to optical, and at the Rx end, the same process happens in reverse. It's this double conversion process that introduces so much timing error. The length of the cable is basically irrelevant. The shittier these electrical/optical converters are, the worse Toslink will sound. The one Apple uses in their Macbooks for example seems to be of particularly atrocious quality.
Ahh, ok, thanks. I found this on computerAudiophile from "barrows". Does't is sound like a good explanation?
I2S is the native format of digital audio for the DAC chip itself, this format includes the following signals:
bit clock, wordclock, masterclock, and data, plus ground return(s). SPDIF includes all of these signals on a single wire, and then requires the SPDIF receiver to strip out the I2S signals, and then re-align them with the DAC masterclock, typically using a PLL circuit. All of this embedding, stripping out, and re-aligning adds unneccessary jitter. By using async USB in the DAC itself, all these extra steps are avoided, and the I2S data stream is created with a single fixed frequency clock, resulting in jitter levels as close to that of the clock reference itself as is possible....
Re-clocking is not the panacea that some suspect it is. Only truly asynchronous re-clcocking, used fixed frequency oscillators, can really address jitter issues. And listening tests even reveals that this type of re-clocking does not result is the same performance as using an approach which does not generate the jitter in the first place (well implemented async USB in the DAC). The problem is that building a true asynchronous re-clocker is very difficult, and costly to implement. Most do pseudo re-clocking, using a PLL-this does not eliminate jitter problems-it just changes them into different distortions (as does an ASRC). The technical details of these approaches are too involved to go into here, but my advice is to never believe marketing materials which claim "jitter reduction" or "jitter immunity". My experience has proven time and again that having low jitter from start sounds better than any "jitter reduction" scheme.
Barrows then refers to this article: http://ayre.com/pdf/Ayre_USB_DAC_White_Paper.pdf
which I plan to read.
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1. Because you are comparing apples and oranges. USB streaming works over Isochronous mode, which works in real time and has no error correction. Older adaptive mode implementations are also especially bad, because the clock is controlled by the computer, and the CPU isn't particularly interested in the level of output jitter going to your USB DAC.
USB hard drives, printers, thumb drives, etc work in Block mode. The data is sent is sent in packets not in real time, and these packets are error checked and corrected. That's how you can copy your Word document to your thumb drive and get a bit-exact copy, without the need for a USB filter. Keyboards and mice work in a 3rd mode called Bulk Interrupt, and they don't need filters either.
2. USB noise has nothing to do with having a "bad" computer. Any channel motherboard from any brand is not designed for ultra low noise applications when there is no demand for it from 99.9% of buyers. Similarly, even the best 80+ Gold or 80+ Platinum ATX switching power supply creates a substantial amount of noise, as does any switching power supply. It's baked into the cake. Aside from the switching noise itself, the very best ATX power supplies can get down to around 15mV of DC ripple on their 12/5/3.3V outputs. Any decent linear supply can produce closer to 1mV of ripple. NO ATX power supply can get anywhere close to that, and the best linears will be under 1mV.
The amount of DC ripple produced by the ATX power supply on its outputs are also not what you actually end up with on the VBus line from a motherboard output. That will be on the order of 250mV-700mV. A typical laptop running on its power brick will be closer to 1000mV. Compare that to <1mV produced from a 5V linear power supply.
Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?
How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?
Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)
It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery
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Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?
How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?
Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)
It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery
Interesting! For those too lazy to look, here's the interesting part:
(http://marcusfamily.info/images/dacup.png)
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Are there any measurements that show these atrocious levels of errors and jitter from computers?
How much dc ripple is an actual audible problem?
Oh and I found this: http://www.gigabyte.com/products/product-page.aspx?pid=5497#ov (scroll down a little bit to the audio part)
It turns out there are some BIG manufacturers advertising some kind of audiophile usb power delivery
Yes. A typical motherboard coaxial or Toslink output may have multiple nanoseconds of jitter, and this can easily be seen on a scope, like on the yellow line below.
It's hard to say exactly how much DC ripple is a problem, in much the same way that it's hard to say that say 80ps of jitter will be clearly and audibly worse than 40ps. There are more factors at work than just that one number. In the abstract though, less ripple is definitely preferable, but more clearly than that, linear is definitely preferable to switch-mode, at least when it comes to computer power supplies. Switch-mode in audio components, when done properly, can be very very good. The Empirical AC Substation power supply for the Overdrive DAC is a prime example.
I'm not surprised that some big mobo companies are starting to look at regulated USB outputs as a marketing feature, in much the same way as a lot of them now include dedicated headphone outputs capable of driving 600 Ohm headphones. I would not expect them however to spend more than a few bucks at most on these parts.
(http://www.rme-audio.de/img/techinfo/clock/aes50ns2.gif)
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My Asus motherboard has TrueVolt, which is basically the same idea as Gigabyte's dac-up. MSI has something similar as well.
I can confirm that my Asus board seems cleaner from the back USB than front (probably because there's a cable going to the front).
https://www.asus.com/Motherboards/MAXIMUS_VII_HERO/
I wish my work machine had dac-up, but it's a Gigabyte model without it (Z97 Gaming 7). The USB is somehow bad enough that the Schiit Wyrd drops out from it.
By the way, my Asus motherboard has the best Realtek chip and can drive 600 Ohm cans. Sounds like crap though.
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It should be noted that the picture, posted by Dave, is not a scope shot of a decrapifier where the yellow traces are the input and the blue one is the output.
Would like to see a real one though.
Obviously the Wyrd and Regen will improve jitter.
The Jitter bug is just a common mode data filter + a common mode filter between the power line and ground.
AFAI can see from the little info out there the JB also has part of a common mode inductor in the ground line.
This is bound to cause problems in some USB implementations where the receiver isn't well matched or uses the ground with respect to the (differently) common mode filtered datalines.
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I hate not having measurements, so I used both my crappy old C-Media USB thingy I used to use for my mic input and my Scarlett 2i4 to test ALL of my USB ports.
I remeasured several--including the "winner"--multiple times.
Somehow, the USB output on the front right of my machine is far and away superior to all the others with the exception of THD %, where it is worse than the others. It's still "Very Good" according to RMAA, but not "Excellent" like the other USB ports.
http://www.basshead.club/measurements/usb/scarlett_usb_comparison.html
I wish I could do this decently with my work machine to find the golden USB port there too.
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Three Wyrd in chain: p:8
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603219/schiit-gungnir-dac/2400#post_11897126
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Yeah, he mentioned that in the Wyrd thread as well. I basically used my "Measurements or it didn't happen" line on him. I can't imagine Schiit would tell anyone that would do anything positive.
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Three Wyrd in chain: p:8
http://www.head-fi.org/t/603219/schiit-gungnir-dac/2400#post_11897126
So this guy's chain is:
PC via USB > Wyrd1 > Wyrd2 > Wyrd3 > Peachtree X1 USB/SPDIF converter > MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8Bs > (RCA SPDIF) > GuMBy
Interesting as the MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8B uses it's own clocks (which appear to be standard X'tals) and then 'processes' the incoming data.
The output jitter will propably thus be determined by jitter introduced by the MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8B's crystals.
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PC via USB > Wyrd1 > Wyrd2 > Wyrd3 > Peachtree X1 USB/SPDIF converter > MiniDSP Nano-digi 2x8Bs > (RCA SPDIF) > GuMBy
Don't forget, he's actually running 6 Gumbies when all of his Gungnirs are updated to Gumbies: L-Bass, L-Mid, L-Treble, R-Bass, R-Mid, R-Treble
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For 6 drivers you could do with 3 Gumbies unless you want to use just 1 channel / Gumby in that case 6 would do the job 8)
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To disprove Bit are Bits or USB cables don't matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8DPlqWVmzk
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Yeah, he mentioned that in the Wyrd thread as well. I basically used my "Measurements or it didn't happen" line on him. I can't imagine Schiit would tell anyone that would do anything positive.
To be fair, Schiit don't even tell anyone that a single Wyrd will do anything positive (unless you've got noticeable problems with your USB output). They basically say you should see for yourself, which is a smart approach.
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To disprove Bit are Bits or USB cables don't matter:
How? What?
Having fun with a very expensive box, "just messing around," as the guy said. It didn't set out to prove or disprove anything, didn't even ask any real questions about the signals, and, wasn't to do with audio anyway.
But it was fun to watch. Thanks
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It shows that USB transmission is not just pulses of 1 and 0. But continuous electrical waveform that is susceptible to jitter and EMI interference issues.
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It shows that USB transmission is not just pulses of 1 and 0. But continuous electrical waveform that is susceptible to jitter and EMI interference issues.
usb cables still dont matter
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Well yes, except in software all 1's and 0's are represented by voltages, currents, electrical charges, magnetic fields, pits or lands (actually those only signal transitions), darker or brighter areas and what not.
Some are perceptive to EMI/RFI, others are not, some are read with inferior magnetic or optical readers with motors and use (electro)mechanical components with limitations.
More often than not operating near the edge of where it still works reliably enough.
For 1's and 0's the physical representation doesn't really matter that much untill the signal is so much distorted that a 1 or 0 gets misinterpreted...
The timing part of data transfer is in the clock recovery/synchronisation which is determined by the (averaged) timing of rising or falling edges.
The clock is embedded in the data so a combination of both signals.
It's how the cicuitry behind it, that ultimately decides at a certain point in time which is dicatated by a recovered clock, what electrical levels (with a wide margin) represents a '1' and '0' are and how these are clocked through many components that convert bits to bytes, do lots of 'math' to the 1's and 0's (bytes usually), before actually arriving at the DA conversion stage.
It takes a lot of clockpulses (in time) for the incoming USB signal has been decoded, processed and finally changes the voltage value out of the DAC chip.
Things like impedance matching, level signals, bandwidth of a cable, induced 'garbage' from outside or inside (power supply) etc do of course have an influence on the signal amplitude but unless it is so bad bits are not interpreted as the intended bits and are incorrectable then something need to be done.
The video merely showed a USB 3.0 signal on an expensive scope and that the scope could analyse the signals as well which is neat.
Should do that as well for that price !
It said NOTHING about USB2.0 nor about its jitter, nor how the jitter is of influence in the recovered clock, nor how that recovered clock is used further on.
It also said nothing about about bandwidth differences of USB2.0 cables (which differs substantially from 3.0 cables)
Nope... indeed just a guy faffing around with an expensive toy.
Here's some plots of the influence of common mode filters and ferrite beads on a USB 2.0 signal which is of more relevance in case of the jitterbug.
(http://www.tdk.co.jp/indiv/nec/usb20/p5/5-6b.gif)
(image shamelessly copied from: http://www.tdk.co.jp/indiv/nec/usb20/p5/usb20p5.htm (http://www.tdk.co.jp/indiv/nec/usb20/p5/usb20p5.htm) )
Would like to see some plots like this taken on a USB signal level before and after miracle boxes and also similar shots of (recovered) clocks going into the actual DAC chips.
That is the only point chips where the (recovered) clock signal integrity matters.
Also before and after a miracle box has been applied.
The problem I see here is that to measure this with a revealing accuracy you need very expensive equipment.
Chances are the ones owning this type equipment couldn't dare less about these signals.
The ones that do have these plots are likely not to publish it.
Not for 'proprietary' reasons though ....
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It shows that USB transmission is not just pulses of 1 and 0. But continuous electrical waveform that is susceptible to jitter and EMI interference issues.
I suspect that, if you can locate a retired grandfather who worked in the telephone industry, they would tell you that they knew all about that when music meant vinyl and only vinyl. Digital music, as we know it, may be relatively young: digital audio has been around a lot longer.
Solderdude, thanks for the explanation. We need two things in audio: proper testing and measurement and determining what measurements are actually audible. They must go hand in hand.
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Don't forget, he's actually running 6 Gumbies when all of his Gungnirs are updated to Gumbies: L-Bass, L-Mid, L-Treble, R-Bass, R-Mid, R-Treble
This is a joke, right?
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Getting 3 Gumbies for surround sound (why 6?) seems like a fun idea, but how would you tackle getting HDMI > 6 separates? and then all of the other amps.
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I think the guy made 2 speakers with an active XO with 6 x I2S outputs.
These go to Gumbys and then to amplifiers.
So a stereo system with 3way speakers actively XO'ed.
In front of it he has 3 Wyrds in series.
I reckon he bought 3 wyrds expecting to need one for each Gumby thinking he would go USB ?
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I think he was using a miniDSP module? Or was it a modded Behringer DCX2496?
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This is a joke, right?
No, not a joke. However, I was wrong about the 6 Gumbies. He has 5 DACs in his system. 2 DACs for each treble channel. 2 DACs for each mid-channel. 1 DAC for bass. He intends to have 5 Gumbies, but I think he has 4 Gumbies and a Gungnir Gen2.
Yes, as Solderdude says, he has active XO's, which is like a dream. Not sure how many speakers are in each of his custom tower speakers, though.
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http://ifi-audio.com/portfolio-view/micro-iusb3-0/
add another one, for $400....
It's usb 3.0 as well so we can play back all our 40 bit 1556khz content, just what ive been waiting for!
It even has the magic separated ports for power and data even though they still connect together at the end before going into the DAC! )(
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banishes ALL USB audio gremlins
Really? Don't those fools realise that for every gremlin banished, a thousand more spring to life? Probably in their own marketing department...
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:vomit:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/f/f6/900x900px-LL-f6f22f32_image.jpeg)
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:vomit:
(http://cdn.head-fi.org/f/f6/900x900px-LL-f6f22f32_image.jpeg)
You've spent thousands of dollars on that Audioquest Diamond USB cable and Chord Hugo DAC for a sub-$1K audio-gd amp?
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ikr?
literally one of the most disgusting pics ive seen on headfi
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To disprove Bit are Bits or USB cables don't matter:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8DPlqWVmzk
LOL, you might want to see some of this guy's videos, I'm not sure you two are on the same wavelength here.
Sorry for the intrusion, please go back to jerking off over eye pattern graphs.
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LOL, you might want to see some of this guy's videos, I'm not sure you two are on the same wavelength here.
Sorry for the intrusion, please go back to jerking off over eye pattern graphs.
Actually a little presumptuous on your part sort of implying he's a kool-aid drinker. He was the first person to link one of the crocodile hunter objectivist videos on the forum asking for discussion. He replaced it with another because the guy comes off like a jack ass from an infomercial or petting zoo. I'm sure you're no stranger to certain people in audio espousing universal statements of fact from data of questionable value or correlation.
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Actually a little presumptuous on your part sort of implying he's a kool-aid drinker. He was the first person to link one of the crocodile hunter objectivist videos on the forum asking for discussion. He replaced it with another because the guy comes off like a jack ass from an infomercial or petting zoo. I'm sure you're no stranger to certain people in audio espousing universal statements of fact from data of questionable value or correlation.
Ah, I must have misunderstood.
That'll cost me a constructive comment: isn't there a trade-off between the rise time of a square(ish) wave and higher harmonics which then manifest as added noise? Furthermore, if the switching threshold is reached with the same periodicity, then what effect does it have on jitter?
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Ah, I must have misunderstood.
That'll cost me a constructive comment: isn't there a trade-off between the rise time of a square(ish) wave and higher harmonics which then manifest as added noise?
Ahh... but for this you have common mode filters like the jitterbug.
These limit the rise-/fall-times of the data signal again.
That's why you are not allowed to use more than 1 'in series' (but you can parallel them).
It seems you either need a LOT of different 'cleaners' (or use the newly released iFi which does it all ?) for optimal USB results.
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It seems you either need a LOT of different 'cleaners' (or use the newly released iFi which does it all ?) for optimal USB results.
This is why I take the subjectivists' advice and don't worry about it 'cause I can't hear it ;)
As far as I'm concerned if I buy a high end digital audio product which turns out to be plagued by noise or connection issues, then I consider it defective and fit for a refund.
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Does Sansa have high-end offerings? I had no idea. :P
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This is why I take the subjectivists' advice and don't worry about it 'cause I can't hear it ;)
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Actually, a lot of objectivists I know say stuff like, "fine, you've shown me numbers: now show me tht they translate into anything anyone can actually hear."
As far as I'm concerned if I buy a high end digital audio product which turns out to be plagued by noise or connection issues, then I consider it defective and fit for a refund.
I don't care what it cost, if I hear noise from an audio component I throw it away. I do not have a high-end system: silence, played at full volume, gives me... silence.
(exception: turntables and vinyl)
(Oh, and my pre-amp, which is high-end but somewhat antique, has a sometimes noisy pot. Allowances have to be made for age. Even I crackle a bit.)
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Yet another (positive) review of the jitterbug and the regen.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen-and-audioquest-jitterbug
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Yet another (positive) review of the jitterbug and the regen.
http://www.audiostream.com/content/uptone-audio-usb-regen-and-audioquest-jitterbug
as soon as i saw synergistic research mentioned any and all credibility of these article was gone for me
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So umm...why isn't iFi using an actual Eye Diagram from a scope rather than an illustration for it's 'Rebalanced' approach with the 3.0?
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anecdotal for now, friend plugged a jitterbug (also an effective small mouth bass lure) into an unused usb port on his mini , "it sounded horrible", he plugged it into a usb port > his power leg less usb cable> to dac and it sounded wonderful. Tip to him, try it without the Jitterbug and then let me know.
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So umm...why isn't iFi using an actual Eye Diagram from a scope rather than an illustration for it's 'Rebalanced' approach with the 3.0?
Cuz marketing is a thang
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The more I hear about iFi as a company, the less inclined I am to ever buy a product from them.
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The more I hear about iFi as a company, the less inclined I am to ever buy a product from them.
And the more sorry I am that I did!
I wanted to vomit over that launching of the nano[?] dsd thread. Maybe I'd feel the same over their version of fixing USB: I'd almost certainly feel the same about their ways of selling it.
But hey, maybe it works. I don't know.
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never liked ifi either, mainly because I always find ti dacs to sound shitty and annoying regardless of implementation.
Then after the post of there guys made our Headfi taking shots at the Iggy got redacted, it really turned me off.
I have to admit the iusb3.0 seems interesting though, 400 is a lot but it would seem to be a total all in one. Hopefully anal could get one for his roundup.
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I have to admit the iusb3.0 seems interesting though, 400 is a lot but it would seem to be a total all in one. Hopefully anal could get one for his roundup.
Heck, why not. It's not like I've never asked for a review sample before and been completely ignored.