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Author Topic: Anax at InnerFidelity  (Read 7944 times)

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ultrabike

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2015, 06:16:03 PM »

Persoanlly, I think the whole blind testing and ear training thing is most valuable in putting the world of audio into context. Anyone going off on a hype train or on and on about how cables and break-in totally changed their headphones is just so obviously full of crap after you've heard how hard it is to tell the differences between stuff.

And then, once you get good at it and can tell the subtle differences between things, you can begin to more closely identify those subtle characteristics with your own sense of musical pleasure, and possibly do a better job of honing in on the gear you like as you put together a system within your budget.

But in the end, it matters very little with regard to the exquisite experience of listening to music you love. Except that maybe you'll have a sense of confidence in the gear you've acquired and know you don't really need to keep looking anymore, rather than being unsure and worried that there may be something better out there.

Karma Points! :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
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TMRaven

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #51 on: September 03, 2015, 06:25:10 PM »

Right on, Tyll!
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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #52 on: September 03, 2015, 06:59:39 PM »

That's what it's all about. Getting lost in the music. For some, the content and structure of the music is enough and they could be content for life with their smartphone and included ear buds. For others, they have had a transcendental experience with music either at a live performance or having played an instrument and want to get back to that experience as often as possible. Nailing that hyper accurate reproduction of reality is simply not as easy as some would like to make it seem, but it can be worth it for some.

Everyone has different preferences. Jason had a great point that many should just step back and reevaluate where they are going with audio relative to other life choices they could be making. Life is about priorities and making choices. For me, considering how bad live music has gotten for some genres with terrible concert engineers, a lot of times I can get closer to the real music at home and save $100-$200 a pop per bad performance. So it's not a bad investment per se. Besides, the transcendental musical experience is simply priceless to me. Then you have recording quality and for others, greater fidelity might actually take you further away from your music depending on how you listen.

Everything is relative and personal.

YES !

Persoanlly, I think the whole blind testing and ear training thing is most valuable in putting the world of audio into context. Anyone going off on a hype train or on and on about how cables and break-in totally changed their headphones is just so obviously full of crap after you've heard how hard it is to tell the differences between stuff.

And then, once you get good at it and can tell the subtle differences between things, you can begin to more closely identify those subtle characteristics with your own sense of musical pleasure, and possibly do a better job of honing in on the gear you like as you put together a system within your budget.

But in the end, it matters very little with regard to the exquisite experience of listening to music you love. Except that maybe you'll have a sense of confidence in the gear you've acquired and know you don't really need to keep looking anymore, rather than being unsure and worried that there may be something better out there.

YES² !



Moreover the peace of mind alse contributes to help to lose yourself in the music. Win Win experience. 




Can't wait to read more about next victims.   :-00

AustinValentine

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #53 on: September 03, 2015, 07:32:54 PM »

I don't really think any of those are good analogies for the topic at hand.  You're talking about big life choices for one thing, which is a good bit different than trying to a/b very subtle differences between gear as a means of nothing more than a hobby.

None of these analogies are comparable to the subject at hand. I am not saying there is or isn't a difference in the dacs/amps being tested but this is a completely illogical post.

I'd hope they're not good analogies. (Actually, I'd hope that they're hyperbole. Especially re: Mitochondria.) But it's important that you framed it in those terms.

The gist of what I was trying to get to is that improvement, necessary or not, can always be questioned as too difficult, not worth it, not worth the cost, etc. etc. What we're really discussing is, in a somewhat concrete sense, a question of value.

You commented that my examples were about "about big life choices" and not about "nothing more than a hobby." These are value judgements. Frix's assertion that being able to determine finite differences "doesn't matter in the end" or is an end that exists to only "justify ridicoulus [sic] priced gear" is also a value judgement.

What's really vital is having a way of articulating value. With big stuff, questions of value are pretty self-evident. But value/worth in a hobby is always about subtle gradients of value. What is X worth to you and why? The audio hobby has a number of variables that can stand in for X ranging from concrete, material aspects (ergonomics, aesthetics), to performance metrics (resolution, tonal balance, microdetail extraction, transient attack, output power), to economic aspects (product cost, manufacture location, distribution network, advertising and review influence, personal livelihood), to social aspects (forum culture, live meets, website readership, personal friendships, etc.).

Any single aspect in this hobby is an interdependent mix of the above factors. Ear training is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. (See: Tyll's comment on how valuable he thinks it is vis-a-vis context.) A high cost piece of equipment is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. Buying something that's made in one nation-state rather than another is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued for others.

The tough part about knowing that subjective frame is also understanding that one person's relative structure of value can't be easily (or at all) universalized.

For example, I find tremendous value in not just myself but other people getting ear training to evaluate gear. I personally believe that having more people who are capable of performing structured close listening with audio equipment - acknowledging their personal limits and capabilities while simultaneously working in earnest to perform better - is nothing but good for the hobby. Those people are individuals whose impressions in my eyes have gained a bit more measure of trust. Sure, I trust my own ears first. But when I can't, I'd like to be able to extend a measure of trust.

But I acknowledge that what I find valuable might be of varying value to other people.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 07:53:42 PM by AustinValentine »
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keanex

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #54 on: September 03, 2015, 07:56:50 PM »

I'd hope they're not good analogies. (Actually, I'd hope that they're hyperbole. Especially re: Mitochondria.) But it's important that you framed it in those terms.

The gist of what I was trying to get to is that improvement, necessary or not, can always be questioned as too difficult, not worth it, not worth the cost, etc. etc. What we're really discussing is, in a somewhat concrete sense, a question of value.

You commented that my examples were about "about big life choices" and not about "nothing more than a hobby." These are value judgements. Frix's assertion that being able to determine finite differences "doesn't matter in the end" or is an end that exists to only "justify ridicoulus [sic] priced gear" is also a value judgement.

What's really vital is having a way of articulating value. With big stuff, questions of value are pretty self-evident. But value/worth in a hobby is always about subtle gradients of value. What is X worth to you and why? The audio hobby has a number of variables that can stand in for X ranging from concrete, material aspects (ergonomics, aesthetics), to performance metrics (resolution, tonal balance, microdetail extraction, transient attack, output power), to economic aspects (product cost, manufacture location, distribution network, advertising and review influence), and also social aspects (forum culture, live meets, website readership, etc.).

Any single thing in this hobby is an interdependent mix of the above factors. Ear training is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. (See: Tyll's comment on how valuable he thinks it is vis-a-vis context.) A high cost piece of equipment is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. Buying something that's made in one nation-state rather than another is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued for others.

The tough part about knowing that is also understanding that one person's relative structure of value can't be easily (or at all) universalized.


See this post I can relate to because there's no outlandishness here. I don't disagree with you at all and I think you'd have been better off just coming out and saying this.

I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better. I doubt I'll pursue it further, but I wouldn't laugh at those who chose to. I also wouldn't laugh at someone who chose to buy a Yggy over a Modi even if they couldn't ABX them (I'm not saying this is the case, nor am I implying it). If they have the money and it gives them peace of mind then that's what matters.

This is a highly subjective hobby and everyone finds their own value.
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aufmerksam

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #55 on: September 03, 2015, 08:02:30 PM »

I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better.

I think it is also very relevant to help people identify what differences they can't hear well. If I am honest, I probably need to redo it and check what I have lost in the last 5 years.
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complin

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #56 on: September 03, 2015, 08:03:03 PM »

Absolutely agree. If we think about what we used to reproduce music on over the past decades 78's with a metal needle and a metal horn, AM radio through tiny speakers with intermittent interference. Nevertheless it did not detract that much from enjoying and getting engrossed in the music. We accepted it was the best we could do at that point in time.
Searching for a truly live music performance in the home or via headphone is a pointless thing as it can never be achieved. There are too many things we can't reproduce like the original performance space and acoustic for example. When I was young we used call all this gear sound reproduction equipment and that to me says it all. However much we strive and close we get to approaching the original performance it will always be a reproduction, a facsimile of the original, so we should never forget that in all the hype and foo that surrounds this hobby.

That's what it's all about. Getting lost in the music. For some, the content and structure of the music is enough and they could be content for life with their smartphone and included ear buds. For others, they have had a transcendental experience with music either at a live performance or having played an instrument and want to get back to that experience as often as possible. Nailing that hyper accurate reproduction of reality is simply not as easy as some would like to make it seem, but it can be worth it for some.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2015, 08:28:42 PM by complin »
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AustinValentine

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #57 on: September 03, 2015, 08:06:16 PM »

See this post I can relate to because there's no outlandishness here. I don't disagree with you at all and I think you'd have been better off just coming out and saying this.

Oh, yeah. I generally lead with outlandish. (And I get that that might not immediately translate in print.) Also, not trying to insult with the comments above either. (Sometimes that doesn't come off right either.)

I'm not sure that Frog from Chronotrigger gets across my peanut gallery factor as well as Balki from Perfect Strangers did. I may have to look at changing my avatar back.
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complin

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #58 on: September 03, 2015, 08:15:41 PM »

http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/product01 David Moulton originated the "Golden Ears" training back in 1969 for sound professionals
I think the jury is out as to if its had much impact on the industry given the poor quality of the mainstream output. Compressed, hot treble and seems to be mastered to sound best on a car radio  headbang

[/quote]
I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better.
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keanex

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Re: Anax at InnerFidelity
« Reply #59 on: September 03, 2015, 08:25:39 PM »

Can't fault the engineers for providing what the industry is asking for, IMO.
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