CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS
Non-Audio Stuff => Random Thoughts => Topic started by: lm4der on August 09, 2015, 11:26:40 PM
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Just saw this, Anax is going to InnerFidelity to test the rigs, kudos:
http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/big-sound-2015-lets-get-some-ears#JYwfss2AAuS8SpDM.97
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Thanks! Believe me, I'm extremely grateful to Tyll for the opportunity. I'm actually looking forward to hanging with my favorite drag queen and grilling some mammals out in beautiful Montana the most. If you guys have any thoughts or recommendations that you think would be helpful or of interest to you I'm all ears.
:)p5
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I just saw that too. Congratulations Anax, I'm really glad that you and Tyll will be able to provide your "voices of reason" regarding all these new flagships amidst all the FotM hype. I can't wait to read whether any of this gear can actually live up to the hype according to your ears!
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A good time to break out the Anax 3.0 on Tyll's HD800s?
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I live a few hours from Tyll, and asked him if I could come and check things out. He said sure headbang
A big thanks to Tyll for opening his all-star line up of gear to the community for listening :)p1
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Awesome! I see they are looking for one lucky writer, whoever that lucky person is will be in heaven I'm sure!
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Awesome! I see they are looking for one lucky writer, whoever that lucky person is will be in heaven I'm sure!
If you want to get there on your own dime, Tyll has a few days available for the common folk to listen 9am-5pm.
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Congrats Anax, looking forward to future articles from Tyll talking about this :).
Arnaud
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Gratz, Anax. Wish I could just be in that meeting to understand the jargon in context. Look forward to your contributions.
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Oh damn, that's crazy :)p6
If I went it would destroy any chance for contentment with my own rig though :)p13
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Congrats! Does this mean you'll be doing more reviews or is this just a one time thing?
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If you guys have any thoughts or recommendations that you think would be helpful or of interest to you I'm all ears.
:)p5
Grats Anax! :)p5
How about a quick amp smackdown with HD800's?
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The Tyll and the big teeth rabbit are teaming up :)p6 :)p1 :)p6 :)p1 :)p3
All the best ahoy
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I'm just down the road from Tyll and heading there as well. It's great he's letting readers come over and hang out for a listen (and not just a cursory one). If you're within striking distance of Bozeman, give him a shout!
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Congratulations! Enjoy the trip and all the best.
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Totally stoke Mike will visit. Not exactly sure what flavor mammals will be seared, but they'll be local and tasty.
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Totally stoke Mike will visit. Not exactly sure what flavor mammals will be seared, but they'll be local and tasty.
I would check the "beef thread." His fluffy cuteness loves beef with his carrots.
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Expert meets expert, indeed :)p5
Ali
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I hope Tyll has a cable for Anex's HD800 for the Woo WA234...
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I've got a 2 XLR to single 4-pin XLR adapter.
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If you want to get there on your own dime, Tyll has a few days available for the common folk to listen 9am-5pm.
Unfortunately with working full-time and school full-time it's not feasible :(
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I would check the "beef thread." His fluffy cuteness loves beef with his carrots.
Tatanka! :P
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1755725690/Bison.jpg)
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Buffalo it is! Plenty of that around with Ted's ranch near by.
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Tatanka! :P
(https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/1755725690/Bison.jpg)
:)p13 :)p13 :)p13
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Problem with buffalo is that it's not fatty enough. Good meat has to be pretty fatty, IMO.
Now lamb...and duck...that shit's good.
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Copied from the Alternative Transport thread WRT to listening to Antelope's 10M Rubidium clock:
@Anax
I know their converters are mediocre at best. I was thinking in terms of reclocking a source to which they have a better reputation for.
I have read two general opinions regarding this: From those who haven't heard it say it shouldn't matter theoretically. Those that have heard it say it makes a significant audible improvement. I've wondered if the latter opinion was financially incentivized TBH.
I just thought it would be interesting to listen to their Platinum DAC with and without the added 10M clock.
(http://images.cdn.whathifi.com/sites/whathifi.com/files/styles/big-image/public/brands/Antelope/antelope_zodiac_1.jpg?itok=nv89xba9)
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I was really interested in reclocking a few years ago, too, and the Antelope reclockers are highly regarded.
After reading up in a lot of hi-end audio forums, it seems like the consensus was that reclocking makes no difference and is only applicable if you actually have a mastering studio with a lot of devices interacting together.
If anyone here has been able to test with and without reclocking, I'd love to hear impressions, but my understanding is that it wouldn't make any difference for the setups most of us are running with.
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Agreed on the mastering application consensus. I've read that too. Here's an Antelope 10M vid that supports that with a bonus Wu Tang history lesson.
http://youtu.be/zKY40DAUNN4
It's interesting though that Antelope has packaged up the 10M for audiophiles. The MSRP for the Zodiac Platinum and Voltikus PS is $5500. You have to add an additional $7500 to include the 10M in the bundle.
Hopefully Mike will have a chance this weekend to rotate the 10M in and out of that bundle and give us the verdict.
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Just got back from Tyll's "BIG Sound 2015", WOW...
I've never listened to that caliber of equipment before. It's been a few years since I've discovered the headphone hobby, and it was quite the humbling experience to be in that room with six figures worth of gear.
I expected the sonic difference between amps to be much more noticeable, and I had my ass handed to me by the testing. I had to throw in the towel by the time I had some alone time with the Yggy and Antelope... I would not be able to distinguish between them if my life depended on it...
Tyll's room probably saved me thousands of dollars in future upgrades, that would have not got my ears any further down the road of audio nirvana. My lesson was... People don't have to sell the farm to have a system that truly makes them happy.
Tyll was an awesome host, and told it like it is. No fluff or sugar coating anything, and I truly appreciate him being a straight shooter :)p1
Take it for what it's worth, but my rookie ears liked the Anaxilus modded HD800's the most. Tyll didn't tell me they were modded until I was almost done.
Thanks again Tyll :)p4
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Looking forward to watching your impressions!
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Kudos for you JK-47 . ;)
Who's next ? hans and Anax ?
Awesome articles from Tyll... I Love that popcorn
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Great job Aleks!
I can already see the direction this test is headed in: Discernible differences between headphones, almost indiscernible differences between amps of a type (SS-SS; Tube-Tube etc.). It'll be interesting to see how the H(ype)F(actory) reacts to this. In late 2013 there was a dude on head-fi who took it upon himself to go through with a similar project: A great comparison of DACs from a few hundred to many thousand bucks. At one time that guy had more than 10 devices in his room, and also had people come in and listen. He reported the whole thing on head-fi. At first he was applauded, everybody was into it, that changed quickly when his findings came in: Neither he nor his guests could discern any worthwhile sonic differences between the dacs - even at highly different pricepoints. His conclusion was that above a certain level all that mattered were ergonomics, price and looks. Needless to say the thread turned into one of the most epic flamewars of that year, the last third of which is now heavily 'redacted'. I think quite a few people got banned from HF during that time, me included.
Anyway, I'm really looking forward to other people's opinions on Tyll's selection: Especially with regards to headphones! ;)
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Great having you here, JK-47.
I reckon we're going to get a mix of results, and I di think we're going to have a few folks that can blindest the DACs...I did a little listening today after you left and think I could. We'll see.
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A really big thanks to Tyll! This for me seems to become one of the most interesting tests I have ever come across. It puts things in perspective.
Yes there is really really great gear these days but the first thing to consider is how good and trained are my own ears and up to which price & quality level can I truly get a more rewarding musical enjoyment experience?
I have always been very sceptical when I read about HUGE differences even between different cables or after small mods.
At the same time spending more time with this hobby my hearing has become finer and finer and I surely appreciate a good system!
So I am looking forward to hear the experiences when some of the `golden ears´ will be visiting Tyll.
I also loved Tyll´s introductary writings about blind testing and the right and left brain. When going through some tests in the past (like the Golden Ears contest by Philips) there were tests where I had to concentrate and listen for small specific changes, with others it was easier to just lean back and sense differences just from the incoming sensation of the musical experience as a whole...
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Great having you here, JK-47.
I reckon we're going to get a mix of results, and I di think we're going to have a few folks that can blindest the DACs...I did a little listening today after you left and think I could. We'll see.
Thanks again Tyll, not only for the visit but for the coaching tips regarding critical listening. I must of said "I'm overwhelmed" 5-6 times throughout the day...lol
Whether I develope a set of "listening ears" or not, I had a great time and will continue to enjoy my cheeeeezy 80's jams...lol
Get well soon!!!
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Awesome job Alek & Tyll! :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
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Interesting impressions JK-47, thanks.
talking about training ones ears. I don't get the concept.
Why would I wanne train my ears to perceive very sublte differences, which do not
matter in the end. Just for the peace of mind?
If I don't hear significant differences why should I train? To justify ridicoulus priced gear?
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Nobody needs to train their ears.
Some folks want to, to others it happens naturally as they wander around the joyfull path in audioland.
Some people get a kick out of subtle cues and then the (endless and expensive ::)) search is 'on'.
Of course revealing enough gear is essential to make them audible as is knowing what to listen for (the training bit comes in handy).
Like with all things in life ... even with training some won't be able to hear as 'deep' as others can and some hear things that probably aren't even there.
For instance, you can train in sports all your life but most likely will never reach olympic levels, simply because not everyone is 'built' the same, has an equal talent or abilities.
If you don't hear differences others tell you there are, then count your blessings and you can enjoy music on a much smaller budget. :)p7
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Interesting impressions JK-47, thanks.
talking about training ones ears. I don't get the concept.
Why would I wanne train my ears to perceive very sublte differences, which do not
matter in the end. Just for the peace of mind?
If I don't hear significant differences why should I train? To justify ridicoulus priced gear?
That's a very good point. I just stay try out whatever one likes, and keep what makes he or she the most happy. I would like to think the hobby is about listening to music for enjoyment, and not trying to rigorously train one's ears over time to differentiate top-priced gear that shouldn't need to be differentiated in the first place, if they're already that close in sonic performance.
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Interesting impressions JK-47, thanks.
talking about training ones ears. I don't get the concept.
Why would I wanne train my ears to perceive very sublte differences, which do not
matter in the end. Just for the peace of mind?
If I don't hear significant differences why should I train? To justify ridicoulus priced gear?
I know, right. Why should I learn to cook when there's a place with a dollar menu right up the street? Why should I get a college degree when I can get a job at the local Water & Sewerage plant down the street with just a high school diploma? (After all, I'll make just as much.) Why should I get married when I have a Tinder app and a winning profile? (Weddings cost money. Plus, he/she will own half your stuff after. That's a suckers game.) Why should I learn another language when I already know English? Why should I learn to fire a gun when we already have police? Why should I go to the movies when Netflix is cheap and right here in my living room?
Why do anything better? Why crawl out of the goddamn primordial ooze? We were just fine before we had fucking midocondria man and life is hard.
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Believe me, I won' be doing any rigorous ear training :)p13
It's just nice to learn something new headbang
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I know, right. Why should I learn to cook when there's a place with a dollar menu right up the street? Why should I get a college degree when I can get a job at the local Water & Sewerage plant down the street with just a high school diploma? (After all, I'll make just as much.) Why should I get married when I have a Tinder app and a winning profile? (Weddings cost money. Plus, he/she will own half your stuff after. That's a suckers game.) Why should I learn another language when I already know English? Why should I learn to fire a gun when we already have police? Why should I go to the movies when Netflix is cheap and right here in my living room?
Why do anything better? Why crawl out of the goddamn primordial ooze? We were just fine before we had fucking midocondria man and life is hard.
I don't really think any of those are good analogies for the topic at hand. You're talking about big life choices for one thing, which is a good bit different than trying to a/b very subtle differences between gear as a means of nothing more than a hobby.
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Training yourself to improve your ability to actively listen is not necessarily related to being able to A/B expensive gear and tell differences.
Improving your active listening ability lets you hear more music. It's essentially fine-tuning one of your senses.
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Do I want to be able to appreciate and enjoy a better wine, do I want to hear the difference between a normal violin and a Stradivarius?
It is up to me... In general I like the quest for perfection and the appreciation for it, even if I don´t have the money to pursue that in every aspect in life. (which I am absolutely fine with, since I already live relatively seen in great luxury). But hey, I am here on Changstar, meaning a great private headphone music system might be something which is worth it for me...
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I don't really think any of those are good analogies for the topic at hand. You're talking about big life choices for one thing, which is a good bit different than trying to a/b very subtle differences between gear as a means of nothing more than a hobby.
It's not so that you can differentiate gear. It's so that you can get closer to the music and absorb more of what is contained within the recordings. Some people simply like gear and impressive designs but for most of us, it's about the music. Like why get a blu-ray when you can stream a movie in lossy 720 on Youtube/dailymotion/etc? Probably because you want to see as much of what was originally there as possible, and doing so will increase your enjoyment and the visceral experience. I don't think this is a mind-blowing concept. Most of us will settle for "pretty damn good" and that's great. But why not find out what's on top? Why would you drive a souped-up monster around a racetrack even if you aren't going to buy it and drive it every day? Because it's cool and exciting.
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a great private headphone music system might be something which is worth it for me...
I like the way this statement captures the essence of what we are doing here.
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The problem is that there's not so much a clear-cut 'top' in this hobby as opposed to something more objectively-based, say being a computer enthusiast trying to get as much FPS as possible out of a video game.
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That's what it's all about. Getting lost in the music. For some, the content and structure of the music is enough and they could be content for life with their smartphone and included ear buds. For others, they have had a transcendental experience with music either at a live performance or having played an instrument and want to get back to that experience as often as possible. Nailing that hyper accurate reproduction of reality is simply not as easy as some would like to make it seem, but it can be worth it for some.
Everyone has different preferences. Jason had a great point that many should just step back and reevaluate where they are going with audio relative to other life choices they could be making. Life is about priorities and making choices. For me, considering how bad live music has gotten for some genres with terrible concert engineers, a lot of times I can get closer to the real music at home and save $100-$200 a pop per bad performance. So it's not a bad investment per se. Besides, the transcendental musical experience is simply priceless to me. Then you have recording quality and for others, greater fidelity might actually take you further away from your music depending on how you listen.
Everything is relative and personal.
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Persoanlly, I think the whole blind testing and ear training thing is most valuable in putting the world of audio into context. Anyone going off on a hype train or on and on about how cables and break-in totally changed their headphones is just so obviously full of crap after you've heard how hard it is to tell the differences between stuff.
And then, once you get good at it and can tell the subtle differences between things, you can begin to more closely identify those subtle characteristics with your own sense of musical pleasure, and possibly do a better job of honing in on the gear you like as you put together a system within your budget.
But in the end, it matters very little with regard to the exquisite experience of listening to music you love. Except that maybe you'll have a sense of confidence in the gear you've acquired and know you don't really need to keep looking anymore, rather than being unsure and worried that there may be something better out there.
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I know, right. Why should I learn to cook when there's a place with a dollar menu right up the street? Why should I get a college degree when I can get a job at the local Water & Sewerage plant down the street with just a high school diploma? (After all, I'll make just as much.) Why should I get married when I have a Tinder app and a winning profile? (Weddings cost money. Plus, he/she will own half your stuff after. That's a suckers game.) Why should I learn another language when I already know English? Why should I learn to fire a gun when we already have police? Why should I go to the movies when Netflix is cheap and right here in my living room?
Why do anything better? Why crawl out of the goddamn primordial ooze? We were just fine before we had fucking midocondria man and life is hard.
None of these analogies are comparable to the subject at hand. I am not saying there is or isn't a difference in the dacs/amps being tested but this is a completely illogical post.
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Persoanlly, I think the whole blind testing and ear training thing is most valuable in putting the world of audio into context. Anyone going off on a hype train or on and on about how cables and break-in totally changed their headphones is just so obviously full of crap after you've heard how hard it is to tell the differences between stuff.
And then, once you get good at it and can tell the subtle differences between things, you can begin to more closely identify those subtle characteristics with your own sense of musical pleasure, and possibly do a better job of honing in on the gear you like as you put together a system within your budget.
But in the end, it matters very little with regard to the exquisite experience of listening to music you love. Except that maybe you'll have a sense of confidence in the gear you've acquired and know you don't really need to keep looking anymore, rather than being unsure and worried that there may be something better out there.
Karma Points! :)p1 :)p1 :)p1
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Right on, Tyll!
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That's what it's all about. Getting lost in the music. For some, the content and structure of the music is enough and they could be content for life with their smartphone and included ear buds. For others, they have had a transcendental experience with music either at a live performance or having played an instrument and want to get back to that experience as often as possible. Nailing that hyper accurate reproduction of reality is simply not as easy as some would like to make it seem, but it can be worth it for some.
Everyone has different preferences. Jason had a great point that many should just step back and reevaluate where they are going with audio relative to other life choices they could be making. Life is about priorities and making choices. For me, considering how bad live music has gotten for some genres with terrible concert engineers, a lot of times I can get closer to the real music at home and save $100-$200 a pop per bad performance. So it's not a bad investment per se. Besides, the transcendental musical experience is simply priceless to me. Then you have recording quality and for others, greater fidelity might actually take you further away from your music depending on how you listen.
Everything is relative and personal.
YES !
Persoanlly, I think the whole blind testing and ear training thing is most valuable in putting the world of audio into context. Anyone going off on a hype train or on and on about how cables and break-in totally changed their headphones is just so obviously full of crap after you've heard how hard it is to tell the differences between stuff.
And then, once you get good at it and can tell the subtle differences between things, you can begin to more closely identify those subtle characteristics with your own sense of musical pleasure, and possibly do a better job of honing in on the gear you like as you put together a system within your budget.
But in the end, it matters very little with regard to the exquisite experience of listening to music you love. Except that maybe you'll have a sense of confidence in the gear you've acquired and know you don't really need to keep looking anymore, rather than being unsure and worried that there may be something better out there.
YES² !
Moreover the peace of mind alse contributes to help to lose yourself in the music. Win Win experience.
Can't wait to read more about next victims. :-00
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I don't really think any of those are good analogies for the topic at hand. You're talking about big life choices for one thing, which is a good bit different than trying to a/b very subtle differences between gear as a means of nothing more than a hobby.
None of these analogies are comparable to the subject at hand. I am not saying there is or isn't a difference in the dacs/amps being tested but this is a completely illogical post.
I'd hope they're not good analogies. (Actually, I'd hope that they're hyperbole. Especially re: Mitochondria.) But it's important that you framed it in those terms.
The gist of what I was trying to get to is that improvement, necessary or not, can always be questioned as too difficult, not worth it, not worth the cost, etc. etc. What we're really discussing is, in a somewhat concrete sense, a question of value.
You commented that my examples were about "about big life choices" and not about "nothing more than a hobby." These are value judgements. Frix's assertion that being able to determine finite differences "doesn't matter in the end" or is an end that exists to only "justify ridicoulus [sic] priced gear" is also a value judgement.
What's really vital is having a way of articulating value. With big stuff, questions of value are pretty self-evident. But value/worth in a hobby is always about subtle gradients of value. What is X worth to you and why? The audio hobby has a number of variables that can stand in for X ranging from concrete, material aspects (ergonomics, aesthetics), to performance metrics (resolution, tonal balance, microdetail extraction, transient attack, output power), to economic aspects (product cost, manufacture location, distribution network, advertising and review influence, personal livelihood), to social aspects (forum culture, live meets, website readership, personal friendships, etc.).
Any single aspect in this hobby is an interdependent mix of the above factors. Ear training is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. (See: Tyll's comment on how valuable he thinks it is vis-a-vis context.) A high cost piece of equipment is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. Buying something that's made in one nation-state rather than another is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued for others.
The tough part about knowing that subjective frame is also understanding that one person's relative structure of value can't be easily (or at all) universalized.
For example, I find tremendous value in not just myself but other people getting ear training to evaluate gear. I personally believe that having more people who are capable of performing structured close listening with audio equipment - acknowledging their personal limits and capabilities while simultaneously working in earnest to perform better - is nothing but good for the hobby. Those people are individuals whose impressions in my eyes have gained a bit more measure of trust. Sure, I trust my own ears first. But when I can't, I'd like to be able to extend a measure of trust.
But I acknowledge that what I find valuable might be of varying value to other people.
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I'd hope they're not good analogies. (Actually, I'd hope that they're hyperbole. Especially re: Mitochondria.) But it's important that you framed it in those terms.
The gist of what I was trying to get to is that improvement, necessary or not, can always be questioned as too difficult, not worth it, not worth the cost, etc. etc. What we're really discussing is, in a somewhat concrete sense, a question of value.
You commented that my examples were about "about big life choices" and not about "nothing more than a hobby." These are value judgements. Frix's assertion that being able to determine finite differences "doesn't matter in the end" or is an end that exists to only "justify ridicoulus [sic] priced gear" is also a value judgement.
What's really vital is having a way of articulating value. With big stuff, questions of value are pretty self-evident. But value/worth in a hobby is always about subtle gradients of value. What is X worth to you and why? The audio hobby has a number of variables that can stand in for X ranging from concrete, material aspects (ergonomics, aesthetics), to performance metrics (resolution, tonal balance, microdetail extraction, transient attack, output power), to economic aspects (product cost, manufacture location, distribution network, advertising and review influence), and also social aspects (forum culture, live meets, website readership, etc.).
Any single thing in this hobby is an interdependent mix of the above factors. Ear training is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. (See: Tyll's comment on how valuable he thinks it is vis-a-vis context.) A high cost piece of equipment is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued by others. Buying something that's made in one nation-state rather than another is going to have marginal value for some and be highly valued for others.
The tough part about knowing that is also understanding that one person's relative structure of value can't be easily (or at all) universalized.
See this post I can relate to because there's no outlandishness here. I don't disagree with you at all and I think you'd have been better off just coming out and saying this.
I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better. I doubt I'll pursue it further, but I wouldn't laugh at those who chose to. I also wouldn't laugh at someone who chose to buy a Yggy over a Modi even if they couldn't ABX them (I'm not saying this is the case, nor am I implying it). If they have the money and it gives them peace of mind then that's what matters.
This is a highly subjective hobby and everyone finds their own value.
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I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better.
I think it is also very relevant to help people identify what differences they can't hear well. If I am honest, I probably need to redo it and check what I have lost in the last 5 years.
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Absolutely agree. If we think about what we used to reproduce music on over the past decades 78's with a metal needle and a metal horn, AM radio through tiny speakers with intermittent interference. Nevertheless it did not detract that much from enjoying and getting engrossed in the music. We accepted it was the best we could do at that point in time.
Searching for a truly live music performance in the home or via headphone is a pointless thing as it can never be achieved. There are too many things we can't reproduce like the original performance space and acoustic for example. When I was young we used call all this gear sound reproduction equipment and that to me says it all. However much we strive and close we get to approaching the original performance it will always be a reproduction, a facsimile of the original, so we should never forget that in all the hype and foo that surrounds this hobby.
That's what it's all about. Getting lost in the music. For some, the content and structure of the music is enough and they could be content for life with their smartphone and included ear buds. For others, they have had a transcendental experience with music either at a live performance or having played an instrument and want to get back to that experience as often as possible. Nailing that hyper accurate reproduction of reality is simply not as easy as some would like to make it seem, but it can be worth it for some.
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See this post I can relate to because there's no outlandishness here. I don't disagree with you at all and I think you'd have been better off just coming out and saying this.
Oh, yeah. I generally lead with outlandish. (And I get that that might not immediately translate in print.) Also, not trying to insult with the comments above either. (Sometimes that doesn't come off right either.)
I'm not sure that Frog from Chronotrigger gets across my peanut gallery factor as well as Balki from Perfect Strangers did. I may have to look at changing my avatar back.
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http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/product01 (http://www.moultonlabs.com/full/product01) David Moulton originated the "Golden Ears" training back in 1969 for sound professionals
I think the jury is out as to if its had much impact on the industry given the poor quality of the mainstream output. Compressed, hot treble and seems to be mastered to sound best on a car radio headbang
[/quote]
I personally value ear training, at least in the form of the Philips Golden Ears challenge, as it has helped me with understanding what I'm listening to better.
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Can't fault the engineers for providing what the industry is asking for, IMO.
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Lovely post on values, AV, spot on.
Here's the sad truth: While all this hair splitting I'm doing is going to be directly pointed at bringing a cogent value structure into view-a task that I think would be mighty productive-when I put all my cards on my table and ask myself for my self what I should focus my resources on, the thing that jumps out like monk in gasoline robe is the fucking masters.
None of what we talk about is worth more than ten percent of the gain in our ability to appreciate music that really good remasters would provide. And NO!, they're not worth $20/album at any bit rate. But I sure as shooting' would be happy to pay $5.99/album for 24/96...and I'd pay it over and over to renew my favorite music. And I'd pay $25/mo for streaming access to 16/44.
BUT THE MASTERS HAVE TO BE THE REAL DEAL GOODS!!!
And that, my friends, is why when we consider the value structure of the audio around us, we should be coming to the conclusion that the most effective thing to do is start burning tire fires around all the big label headquarters. " Hey fuckers! You got our music! We'll pay you a reasonable price in solid American dolla, if you fix our music and let us buy it. But if you're going to pull your blue suite, black hearted, MBA bleeed-em-dry bullshit again, we're going to never, ever, never buy anything from you again because it's all out there free on teh webs. And we'll start our own bands and labels.
Sorry AV, that shit makes my blood boil.
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Lovely post on values, AV, spot on.
Here's the sad truth: While all this hair splitting I'm doing is going to be directly pointed at bringing a cogent value structure into view-a task that I think would be mighty productive-when I put all my cards on my table and ask myself for my self what I should focus my resources on, the thing that jumps out like monk in gasoline robe is the fucking masters.
None of what we talk about is worth more than ten percent of the gain in our ability to appreciate music that really good remasters would provide. And NO!, they're not worth $20/album at any bit rate. But I sure as shooting' would be happy to pay $5.99/album for 24/96...and I'd pay it over and over to renew my favorite music. And I'd pay $25/mo for streaming access to 16/44.
BUT THE MASTERS HAVE TO BE THE REAL DEAL GOODS!!!
And that, my friends, is why when we consider the value structure of the audio around us, we should be coming to the conclusion that the most effective thing to do is start burning tire fires around all the big label headquarters. " Hey fuckers! You got our music! We'll pay you a reasonable price in solid American dolla, if you fix our music and let us buy it. But if you're going to pull your blue suite, black hearted, MBA bleeed-em-dry bullshit again, we're going to never, ever, never buy anything from you again because it's all out there free on teh webs. And we'll start our own bands and labels.
Sorry AV, that shit makes my blood boil.
WOW, you're feeling better. Cheers and keep healing!
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Lovely post on values, AV, spot on.
Here's the sad truth: While all this hair splitting I'm doing is going to be directly pointed at bringing a cogent value structure into view-a task that I think would be mighty productive-when I put all my cards on my table and ask myself for my self what I should focus my resources on, the thing that jumps out like monk in gasoline robe is the fucking masters.
None of what we talk about is worth more than ten percent of the gain in our ability to appreciate music that really good remasters would provide. And NO!, they're not worth $20/album at any bit rate. But I sure as shooting' would be happy to pay $5.99/album for 24/96...and I'd pay it over and over to renew my favorite music. And I'd pay $25/mo for streaming access to 16/44.
BUT THE MASTERS HAVE TO BE THE REAL DEAL GOODS!!!
And that, my friends, is why when we consider the value structure of the audio around us, we should be coming to the conclusion that the most effective thing to do is start burning tire fires around all the big label headquarters. " Hey fuckers! You got our music! We'll pay you a reasonable price in solid American dolla, if you fix our music and let us buy it. But if you're going to pull your blue suite, black hearted, MBA bleeed-em-dry bullshit again, we're going to never, ever, never buy anything from you again because it's all out there free on teh webs. And we'll start our own bands and labels.
Sorry AV, that shit makes my blood boil.
Spot on. I will gladly buy an album in any format to justify me downloading a much better mastering. Maybe it's not entirely ethical but I'm going to go with the best release on the best format that I can find. Speaking of that, pbthal makes some phenomenal vinyl rips. Not all are worth checking out, but there's a lot of gems.
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Spot on. I will gladly buy an album in any format to justify me downloading a much better mastering. Maybe it's not entirely ethical but I'm going to go with the best release on the best format that I can find. Speaking of that, pbthal makes some phenomenal vinyl rips. Not all are worth checking out, but there's a lot of gems.
+1 on the pbthal vinyl rips. They shit on anything that you can buy commercially.
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I am very much looking forward to seeing if subsequent listeners who may be more familiar with high end gear like Anax or Bob Katz will be able to perform better on the blind test.
The first two listeners seemed to somewhat new to very high end gear.
EDIT: Also, for what its worth I would very much like you to continue to mention how people did on the blind testing even if they did poorly. For a myriad of reasons I find this to be one of if not the most interesting aspect of the "Big Sound 2015" project.
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Tyll,
How many of these visits do you have lined up?
I've really enjoyed segments 1 and 2. It makes me feel better about my own listening skills :P
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About nine more. Done by Sept 16th. Then it's pack-up and get the gear home or to RMAF as desired.
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Sorry AV, that shit makes my blood boil.
As long as it has no harm for your intestines, should be ok :)p8
Glad to see you're back in track :)p3
Ali
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+1 on the pbthal vinyl rips. They shit on anything that you can buy commercially.
I will admit I heard a few with a high noise floor and rather muddy. I noticed this with a lot of his 2012 rips actually. Not sure what was going on that year for him but otherwise he's great.
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I will admit I heard a few with a high noise floor and rather muddy. I noticed this with a lot of his 2012 rips actually. Not sure what was going on that year for him but otherwise he's great.
Sounds like a phono issue.
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Dying cart
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That's a better answer.
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That's a better answer.
I'll make some needledrops for you before you go. Changstar Vinyl Reference Track Suite.
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pbthal
FYI: I work in content security in the entertainment industry.
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FYI: I work in content security in the entertainment industry.
I'm not sure what you mean by this, but if it's not okay to talk about non-authorized sources of music then I won't mention him again.
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Thanks for putting me onto pbthal, awesome stuff headbang
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Thanks for putting me onto pbthal, awesome stuff headbang
Expect the authorities in your country to be contacting you in the very near future.
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The majority of his rips are of long out-of-print issues though.
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The majority of his rips are of long out-of-print issues though.
Doesn't mean some bastid doesn't own it
They want to maintain the right to re-release as $30 digital abomination remaster
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FYI: I work in content security in the entertainment industry.
then tell them to release better Mixes if they want to keep pirates at bay. walk the plank
We are the only people left that still buy music. :ship:
Everyone else streams it. Last I checked they weren't happy with the profits from that. :)p2
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The only people I know who still buy CDs are metal heads and classical music people with myself in the first category. You can't download yet alone stream this stuff in lossless, it's pressed in print runs of a few thousand copies max, and when they're sold out, it will be out of print for years or decades.
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right now I'm working on my back catalog and I'm filling in my cd collection late 80's to mid 90's. I figure thats the best era for cds after the "we don't know how to master for cds!!" scare and the "hey what about if we made it louder?" era. Still Im spending a lot of time on the steve hoffman forums.
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I still buy CDs and am not a classical or metalhead though I listen to both. I'll buy whatever format has the best masters.
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then tell them to release better Mixes if they want to keep pirates at bay.
Damned right! :)p3
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Personally, I don't give a shit what you guys do. Just being upfront and very clear on what I do for work and by extension, what I will be obligated to do if people start asking questions.
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Fair point, noted.
With that said, hdtracks sometimes does a great job of putting out quality sounding stuff. Prices can be stupid though.
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I submitted my experience at the "BIG Sound 2015" to Tyll a few days ago, and now it's up at Inner Fidelity :)p2
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And thanks loads! Nice piece! ahoy
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Nice write-up JK47, good read
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Great job anaxilus, hands, and Tyll at Big Sound 2015. What a shootout must be pretty tough when you just have to much gear to A/B test.
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Anax,
When you were over at Tyll's place did you notice anything about the 20k streamer? Seriously though, with that front end why wasn't everyone singing their praises? I expected at least several "this is the greatest sound ever" comments, but instead what we got were a bunch of tempered responses. I think Han even said there was nothing there to pull him away from an HD650, lol. Were the setups there demonstrably superior to what you have in your own home? Otherwise that streamer is a joke if it cannot exceed what you get from a 20 year old Denon CDP (magical though it may be).
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We didn't really have the time or equipment to worry about source, cable, or power conditioning stuff...it was there and it played music. I'd have to bring it home and compare for days to comment on it.
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Anax,
When you were over at Tyll's place did you notice anything about the 20k streamer? Seriously though, with that front end why wasn't everyone singing their praises? I expected at least several "this is the greatest sound ever" comments, but instead what we got were a bunch of tempered responses. I think Han even said there was nothing there to pull him away from an HD650, lol. Were the setups there demonstrably superior to what you have in your own home? Otherwise that streamer is a joke if it cannot exceed what you get from a 20 year old Denon CDP (magical though it may be).
Ah, that's a great question. I was beginning to wonder if anyone was going to pick up on that. Obviously I had touched on it a bit over at InnerFidelity's comments section when some people started making spurious assumptions that I basically got to A/B or DBT what was exactly the same as my home audio rig. I actually had to specify some of the differences even though my own profile is public and Tyll actually mentions the gear used on the bottom of every article. Here are the differences:
My home rig: PC (Jriver), turntable, or vintage CD Transport>Yggy>custom 2A3x4 parallel tube amp>HD800 (modded).
DAC test rig: PS Audio P10 regenerator+Synology NAS>Aurender W20>ATI DMM AES digital 'reshaper' junction box>Test DACs>Schiit Ragnarok+miles of thick blue Cardas Clear cables>HD800 (modded).
My first impression hearing everything I had heard before was that pretty much most of the gear seemed a bit warmer or thicker and a little less incisive than what I had remembered hearing at various meets in the past. I think I mentioned that to Tyler/Hands right away and he can confirm whether that's true or not. So right away I knew I was going to have to adapt a bit and sort of reconfigure my sights and maybe even listening protocols.
As for determining what, if anything, might have been the culprit(s) there simply wasn't time or was it part of the agenda. My personal chain is relatively simplistic and even within that I've tested and AB'd just about every major part down to the tubes, caps, potentiometers, drivers, firmware, and buffer settings over months. So there's no way I can give you a definitive answer about the streamer in particular.
I'll say this fwiw. I deliberately chose the Ragnarok to DBT the DACs withh since to me it was the clearest and most resolving amp there, and I still stand by that claim with respect to most if not all the SS headphone amps I've hard to date. However, it is not perfect as the soundstage isn't very wide or layered which presents a very flat and 2D soundspace. Plus the bass could use a big more impact with the HD800. The Rag also has a very slight upper mid/lower treble accentuation that can make certain metallic instruments sound a bit more etched (or 'solid state' sounding) even with the Yggy.
One thing to note, I believe the listeners prior to our arrival may have heard the Rag from the Yggy via the SE outputs. I had mentioned to Tyll those outputs were being summed so we switched to XLR using the Rag for the tests. While notably different, it wasn't as big a downgrade as using SE output from a circlotron amp like the Rag or Gungir. Still, that might help account for some differences in impressions.
Bottom line, as good as the Rag and all the other amps were, I don't think they were a match for my own reference amp in terms of transparency, resolution, imaging, etc. I had hoped maybe the new EC ZDS might be able to make it to Tyll's in time as I think that probably would have been the best amp there for my tastes and preferences. So in that respect, it's simply too difficult to say anything about the other parts in the chain I was unfamiliar with.
I can say that I believe my limited meet experiences tell me the Aurender is better than the Aries which romaz seems to have confirmed independently in another thread. That said, the Aries was not something I ever considered remotely capable of replacing what I was already using.
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I think someone asked about the clock for the Antelope. It certainly helped the Zodiac Platinum become more focused and tighter. Compared to the Yggy, The Zodiac without the clock was notably less incisive with its imaging and control of harmonics. Tyler called is sounding more strained when music got too busy. However, with the clock added, the Zodiac sounded much better focused and articulate coming closer to the Yggy but not quite there. So the clock works to improve the Zodiac for sure, but I wouldn't say changes the game. I'd have to see what it could do with other DACs.
To help illustrate, this is the track I used for the DAC DBT. While it's a track I have, it's not something I actually ever use myself as I'm sure OJNeg, LFF or Marv can tell you they've never heard me AB gear with this song before. I decided to use it because I felt it was the best option for the protocol and gear we were using at the time. By this point, the test just needed to get done, too much still to do. It's actually a somewhat compressed track (but not too bad) from the Miami Vice soundtrack. I was listening around 90dB to 20-28 second loops from the intro for specific things while cycling through the input relays on the Rag from 1-5 even though there were only two inputs. So after #2 I'd cycle through the next three to get back to #1.
Some key notes were how well the piano harmonics were cleanly delineated (whether they actually stopped and allowed air into the musical scene or blended with the other instruments), how accurate the timbre was on the drums (was it organic or kind of hard and crunchy sounding), were the drum brushes too metallic and etched sounding, and the clarity and tone of the guitar twang at 28 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_EfBcZnPLk
So in the end, even with the added $10K clock, the Yggy still sounded just a bit cleaner and clearer.
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this is the track I used for the DAC DBT
Yuck really?
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My first impression hearing everything I had heard before was that pretty much most of the gear seemed a bit warmer or thicker and a little less incisive than what I had remembered hearing at various meets in the past. I think I mentioned that to Tyler/Hands right away and he can confirm whether that's true or not. So right away I knew I was going to have to adapt a bit and sort of reconfigure my sights and maybe even listening protocols.
Those points came up in some form or fashion over the weekend, yes. You definitely talked a lot about having to adapt to the setup and tracks. I recall you more wondering what the whole setup might have been doing rather than mentioning anything specifically about it being warmer or less incisive than you'd heard before. There was a lot going on, though, so I may have misheard or misremembered. I do know you definitely weren't crazy about most of the HD800 cables Tyll had on hand. ;)
I actually thought the Zodiac sounded more tonally similar to the Yggy without the clocks. With the clocks in place, it sounded less strained and more relaxed while simultaneously sounding more precise and clear overall. Bigger stage than without clocks. A bit thicker too, but not in a more-slam sort of way. I thought they were easier to tell apart with the clock in place than without. Yggy sounded more like the more forward DAC to me with the Zodiac clocks in place, where as they were more similarly forward without clocks (though this forward nature didn't work as well on the Zodiac...see my "strained" comment). Something like that...
So, even if they sounded exactly the same, why would I pay the price for the Zodiac when I could get the Yggy for much less? DSD capability sure as hell ain't worth it either.
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Yuck really?
Based on 'studies' the proper length for a loop is 10-20 seconds with anything more leading to fatigue or confusion based on the conversation I had with Tyll. I wanted to try to stay within the parameters of the test as setup for everyone. Which is why i should have probably stopped at pass #8. :P