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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat)  (Read 158892 times)

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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #490 on: December 11, 2012, 09:47:24 PM »

It's not the power - the F12 Berlinetta has more power and a dual-clutch box - it's the weight. A dual-clutch box that can handle the power would have been over 100lbs heavier. That's also why the Huayra has a single-clutch box. The LFA, strangely, started out with a dual-clutch box and then went to a single-clutch because the engineers wanted a more abrupt gearshift feel. Or so Clarkson says anyway.

Incidentally, Clarkson on the LFA.

Sure it does, but that's Ferrari's gearbox, they're not just gonna go sell it to Lamborghini. The E-gear/R-tronic I think is a Lambo created box. Audi used it in the original R8 because at the time, VAG didn't have a DSG that could handle that much power. Now they do, but I'm unsure of just how much VW's latest box can actually take, whether it could handle the Aventador's mighty V-12 or not.

For a long time Mercedes 65AMGs continued to use their ancient 5-speed autobox (I think maybe some still do?) because their 7GTronic would get torn apart by that engine.

According to Motortrend, the LFA dropped the dual clutch box because Toyota couldn't get it done on time. The car had already been delayed for ages because they started with aluminum only to scrap it and start over with carbon fiber, and they just wanted the damn thing out the door already. That "more direct F1 feel" thing has always seemed to me like a marketing excuse to cover up the fact that the LFA's gearbox takes about 10 years to change gears compared to Ferrari's latest gearbox, and has all of the usual clunky SMG foibles.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #491 on: December 11, 2012, 10:30:25 PM »

Nah, it is weight and packaging.  The F12 is a massive car so nobody cares.  There's a reason dual clutches don't exist in Formula 1, simple.  The first F1 team to put in a DSG will lose every single race.  They wanted to save the extra 100lbs as the LFA was already pushing it for a high strung, high power, low torque motor.  Yes, they wanted the more abrupt feel too because that's exactly how F1 sequentials feel which matches the F1 tuned V10 experience in the LFA.  Motortrend was talking out of their arse which is not new.  Toyota waited 10 years to redo the chassis and could have put a DSG in there at any point.  If they cared about timelines they would have released the LFA when they were still in F1 for marketing benefit. 

Btw, the real reason they took so long in the R8 was not power handling of the DSG but packaging concerns.  What was out at the times couldn't be made to fit.  I'm sure it's the same for the Aventador if you see how the suspension is arranged, it's an inboard push-rod 'style' system like a real race car.  That will will decrease the available space for a transverse mounted DSG.  You can see they already offset the motor (to the less ideal side) due to packaging issues they couldn't escape.  Plus nothing says Lamborghini like a violent, abrupt upshift.  Even Ferrari didn't want DSGs originally because they said they were too smooth and heavy, better suited for luxury cars like Maserati.  The real reason Ferrari uses DSGs is because the number of clients wanting manuals went over the fiscal cliff.  Then people complained about SMGs at low speed.  DSGs make it so any fool w/ money can drive a Ferrari. 

I do like DSGs btw, so I'm not opposed to them at all and I do subscribe to Motor Trend, among others.



« Last Edit: December 11, 2012, 10:38:42 PM by Analixus »
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #492 on: December 13, 2012, 06:25:32 AM »

Here's a group of photographs loosely related to cars on the Boston Globe's website.  There are some pretty cool images- 1, 2, 16, 17, 18

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/12/the_automobile.html
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omegakitty

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #493 on: December 13, 2012, 04:07:33 PM »

Here's a group of photographs loosely related to cars on the Boston Globe's website.  There are some pretty cool images- 1, 2, 16, 17, 18

http://www.boston.com/bigpicture/2012/12/the_automobile.html

I can just imagine the conversations between South Korea and Rolls (picture 11)

"yes, we need a bar in the back of the convertible limo for people to hang on to"

"also a boom mic stand pointed at their crotch"
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #494 on: December 18, 2012, 02:32:27 AM »

Fantastic car review:

http://www.edmunds.com/lincoln/mkz/2013/road-test.html

"There are four things on the 2013 Lincoln MKZ that are undeniably best in class — four things that will blindside Lincoln's rivals, and shock and awe its customers.
Those four things are its tires. The rest of the new MKZ is wanting, disappointing and generally undesirable.Right Tires, Wrong Car.

Our V6, all-wheel-drive 2013 Lincoln MKZ test car showed up wearing ultra-aggressive Michelin Pilot Super Sport summer tires (245/40ZR19). They're the kind of tires that come standard on cars like the $90K BMW M5 and the $410K Ferrari 599 GTO
.Red flag. We contacted Lincoln and the response smacked of desperation. Seems the Lincoln engineers insisted on mounting these tires on all of the MKZs earmarked for media testing on the West Coast. They know us car tester types like impressive track numbers to bloviate about, and being in California means cold weather isn't an issue.


Problem is, Lincoln admits that the tires are unicorns."
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #495 on: December 18, 2012, 04:26:07 AM »

Good on Edmunds, they've definitely gotten better as of late. I absolutely do not understand the obsession at Lincoln and Cadillac with capacitive touch controls. Just because it works on your Galaxy S doesn't mean it works in a car! Give me buttons or give me death!
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catscratch

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #496 on: December 18, 2012, 11:18:24 AM »

Definitely a good review, but Edmunds is hardly the bastion of reliable car enthusiast info so they have a long hard road ahead of them if they want more credibility.

Still, it's not as hard as what Lincoln will have to do if they want to survive. Selling uglier, more poorly engineered Fords at ridiculous prices is not going to do them any favors. They need bespoke cars based on their own platforms, and they need to separate themselves from Ford in the eyes of the consumer - and separate themselves through more than just an ugly corporate grille. As of right now, everything that I've read on Lincoln's corporate strategy makes me pretty sure they'll be soon up on the chopping block. Maybe not as fast as Mitsubishi, but certainly going the way of the dodo.

And yes, putting controls with no tactile feedback at all into a car is asking for trouble.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #497 on: December 18, 2012, 09:57:03 PM »

Agreed. Lincoln is a complete mess, they still don't know what kind of car company they want to be. They aren't even sure yet whether the name "Lincoln" is salvageable or whether it's been damaged beyond repair ala Oldsmobile. At least this MKZ looks different than the Ford (too bad it looks worse). The last one was akin to what Infiniti used to do with the I35, it was just a Maxima GLE with a deluxe package and a stuffy grille. Most of the sheet metal on the old Fusion and MKZ was identical.

The fact that Lincoln sent the car with ringer tires is pathetic on two levels. One that they thought they could get away with it and nobody would notice a Lincoln running track numbers with a 911, and two, the fact that they thought Lincoln buyers might care about things like slalom numbers. It just further proves that Lincoln has no clue who their customers are. Do they buy BMW or Lexus?

It also doesn't help that the car isn't any more luxurious than the new Avalon and yet it costs insane money for a company with less badge appeal than Volvo. The used buyers that come in at two years when the car is worth $30K will be paying much closer to what it should've cost originally.
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catscratch

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #498 on: December 18, 2012, 11:31:46 PM »

Didn't BMW send 335s with higher output than what was sold to the public for testing? I'm pretty sure that sending in ringers is quite commonplace, Lincoln were just sloppy with it. Also, I'm doubly confused by what they're doing since Ford has been doing quite well lately, making what seem like quality cars and what has so far turned out to be smart decisions. It's possible that Lincoln is in even more dire financial straits than I had guessed, and re-badged under-engineered cars is all that they can do with the resources they have at the moment.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.
« Reply #499 on: December 19, 2012, 02:16:19 AM »

Unicorn tires used to be commonplace, about 10 years ago people really caught on and started making a stink so the practice started to die out. 

Yes, the new MKZ is quite different.  Almost other-worldly.



« Last Edit: December 19, 2012, 02:23:04 AM by Analixus »
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If you do not change direction, you may end up where you are heading - Lao Tzu
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