Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)

catscratch · « **Reply #230 on:** September 17, 2012, 12:41:41 AM »

I hate to get into the middle of this, but statistics and armchair drag races are really totally irrelevant to people that buy cars like this. The LFA is not going to spend its time racing GTRs off the lights. It's going to spend its time in a collection that already has dozens of other cars of its caliber, and will occasionally be taken out for a track day or a cruise. That's about it. Saying that "oh a GTR beats it" or "you can get a Mustang with way more power" is pretty pointless. Yes, you can get a Mustang with more power. You can also get an old 80s Mustang for $500 bucks, blow $15k on the engine and get yourself a 9-second street machine that will destroy them all, and at the end of the day still leave you with a 80s Mustang.

If acceleration stats mattered, then the best car would be a top fuel dragster, end of story. There's way more to it than that. And if lap times were everything, people would never buy supercars over track-day cars, some of which make the Atom V8 look like a minivan.

In general, supercars are about fulfilling a fantasy. They're not about numbers but about how they make you feel. Whether it's giving you F1 driver fantasies with a Ferrari 458, or pre-war aristocratic fantasies with a Spyker C8, supercar makers sell dreams, essentially, and dreams that are drivable on the street, and are at the very least somewhat livable for the - let's face it, probably quite older - enthusiast that's likely to afford them.

P.S. I love Pagani. Probably the closest thing we have to pre-war French and Italian coach-built exotica. Cars where every component, every nut and bolt is a work of art in of itself. Absolutely stunning and what supercars should be.

maverickronin · « **Reply #231 on:** September 17, 2012, 12:43:35 AM »

Quote from: DaveBSC on September 16, 2012, 10:35:29 PM

I'm not a hedge fund manager, and the only thing I would ever conceive spending $400K on is a house. Anybody who buys an LFA has more money than sense, so I'm sure they can buy an Aventador and a Ferrari F12 as well, and put them on their car elevator.

People with more money than sense aren't likely to be comparing specs...

Marvey · « **Reply #232 on:** September 17, 2012, 05:08:45 AM »

Quote from: ocswing on September 16, 2012, 11:20:07 PM

Obviously getting into personal preference, but that is gaudy as hell. No thanks.

OMG. It looks like something from Dino De Laurentis' Dune.

Anaxilus. · « **Reply #233 on:** September 17, 2012, 05:29:17 AM »

I knew it. Dave is the Kwisatz Haderach!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8-eiBqri0U

Pagani Shai Hulud

One of my favorite auto vids ever. Pagani Zonda R. Watch it in HD.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JYOundkNxGE

DaveBSC · « **Reply #234 on:** September 17, 2012, 06:14:05 AM »

Quote from: catscratch on September 17, 2012, 12:41:41 AM

If acceleration stats mattered, then the best car would be a top fuel dragster, end of story. There's way more to it than that. And if lap times were everything, people would never buy supercars over track-day cars, some of which make the Atom V8 look like a minivan.

In general, supercars are about fulfilling a fantasy. They're not about numbers but about how they make you feel. Whether it's giving you F1 driver fantasies with a Ferrari 458, or pre-war aristocratic fantasies with a Spyker C8, supercar makers sell dreams, essentially, and dreams that are drivable on the street, and are at the very least somewhat livable for the - let's face it, probably quite older - enthusiast that's likely to afford them.

P.S. I love Pagani. Probably the closest thing we have to pre-war French and Italian coach-built exotica. Cars where every component, every nut and bolt is a work of art in of itself. Absolutely stunning and what supercars should be.

My point is simply this. When you are spending a third of a million dollars on a car, everything should just be fanatically over the top. That's what I love about the Aventador. It's not the fastest track car in the world, (though it will easily keep pace with the LFA on most short tracks) but that's not the point. Lamborghini never said it was, that's not really what they do. They make cars to make you feel like a kid, like you're driving a combination of the F-117 Nighthawk and the Batmobile. They know not to bring a knife to a gunfight though, if you want to play in the big boy leagues your horsepower had better start with at least the number 6.

I guess I just don't understand what role the LFA is supposed to play. It will never be able to take down mega track cars like Gumperts and Ascaris, it's too polished and civilized for that. It's not an insane hyper car like a Pagani or a Koenigsegg. It's not an ultimate GT like a Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, and it's too expensive and its transmission is too clunky to be a grocery getter like a 911 Turbo or R8 V10. If it was $175K and Toyota's answer to the Ford GT it would be brilliant. AT $375K though I just don't get it, there are just too many better options.

Agree on Pagani. The '70s ruined car interior design for pretty much everybody. Today's Bentley Mulsanne or Rolls interiors are pale imitations of the real luxury you could once get from a variety of car makers pre WWII. Pagani is pretty much the only company that seems to remember what those cars were like.

Anaxilus. · « **Reply #235 on:** September 17, 2012, 11:07:31 AM »

Quote from: DaveBSC on September 17, 2012, 06:14:05 AM

I guess I just don't understand what role the LFA is supposed to play. It will never be able to take down mega track cars like Gumperts and Ascaris, it's too polished and civilized for that. It's not an insane hyper car like a Pagani or a Koenigsegg. It's not an ultimate GT like a Ferrari F12 Berlinetta, and it's too expensive and its transmission is too clunky to be a grocery getter like a 911 Turbo or R8 V10. If it was $175K and Toyota's answer to the Ford GT it would be brilliant. AT $375K though I just don't get it, there are just too many better options.

Better at what? Being more uncomfortable? Sounding worse, being less refined? Coming apart faster? Setting themselves on fire? Looking like a Volkswagen Beetle? Being easier to drive w/ less skill? No you don't seem to get it, no matter how many times the 'excuses' are explained.

It's not a Gumpert or Ascari, it's not an insane hypercar for those that need to show off their insecurities. It's streetable and won't break if you look at it wrong even though it can post lap times comparable to them. You want hyper cars? The ones you mentioned are for little bitches. If one has the gonads you can get my personal number one, a Caparo T1.

Though I think I'll be content to own a BACs Mono in the not too distant future instead.

Look, I'll try again, LFA is basically a freaking Japanese Aston Martin that can hang w/ the best at the track when used in the right hands all while listening to the aural bliss from either the best audio system or engine any of them have to offer while in the comfort of the best materials and comfort Japan has to offer using supreme precision, fit and finish. For some like me, Aston emboddies the essence of Britains sporst car identity. Not Lotus, not McLaren. Same as Toyota did w/ the 2000GT, it's doing again w/ the LFA. I'd hate to hear what you think of the Aston one-seven-seven. $1.4 million for 750hp and only goes 0-60 in 3.5 secs. What an utter failure!!

The LFA is not vulgar or ostentatious but functional in design. It doesn't sell it's soul for the sake of magazine benchmarks. It represents Toyota's present while looking at it's past and future and tells the company's history. You don't get the LFA because you don't get Japan and are probably predisposed to think Toyota has only been good for making Camrys and Corollas. You don't get why the Japanese harvest rice under a full moon. Why they massage cattle and feed them Sapporo. Why their toilets come w/ a 20 button remote control. Why Japan sells crabs in vending machines. Why Tokyo has more Michelin restaurants than France. That's okay, there's a Z06 with your name on it.

The GTR is Nissan trying to be a German and American muscle car using technical roids and stylized like a Gundam. NSX is Honda trying to be an Italian supercar on the cheap (which in your mind is somehow superior w/ it's 276hp when you say 552hp simply won't do?). The LFA is pure Japanese in its approach. From chief engineer Haruhiko Tanahasi, the goal is:

"Achieve an unprecedented level of sensual and emotional appeal. Fulfilling this ambition demanded not only a high-revving engine, or impressive aerodynamics. What we needed was a car that moved its driver in more ways than one, a car that stirred each of the five senses. We thus set out to perfect the sensual aspects of performance.....
The Lexus interpretation of a supercar demands that the mutual interaction between man and machine .....
While conventional passenger cars focus on getting there, the LFA is all about the journey. I'm proud to say we have succeeded in creating the kind of vehicle that is more than capable of providing instants of sheer driving euphoria."

I hope one day you get to see an LFA next to 458 and Aventador. Open up the hood, put the cars on a lift and look underneath, inspect all the components and you'll see which has the greater attention to detail and precision. Take a seat and go for a drive, maybe it'll make sense all of a sudden.

You think a car in this price bracket should be 'over-the-top'. You don't get how un Japanese that statement is.

DaveBSC · « **Reply #236 on:** September 17, 2012, 12:28:11 PM »

The Caparo seems to be a car that both breaks and catches on fire at the same time. It's also impossible to handle unless you're going a million mph and the downforce starts working. No thanks, I'd rather live.

I just don't see the Aston Martin connection, I'm sorry. Astons are the "gentlemen's express". The Vantage is a sports/GT, as are the DB9 and the Virage. The DBS turns things up a notch, but it's still a GT, not a lap time car. McLaren and Noble make the British super cars, not Aston Martin. You know what competes with Aston? A V-12 Mercedes SL.

The LFA reminds me a lot of the Porsche Carrera GT. Similar price, similar engine, and it was also known for being a bit difficult. It was also kind of an odd ball car and I never really liked it either.

I actually think the GT-R is a lot more Japanese than the LFA is. The GT-R has heritage, everybody who knows anything about Japanese performance cars knows about the WRX, Lancer EVO, and Skyline GT-R. The R34 is still the purest example of the breed, much as the E39 is for the M5, but it's still 100% Japanese - six cylinders, twin turbos, AWD. That's what Japan is all about.

300ZX - TT V6. GT-R - TT V6. 3000GT - TT V6. Supra - TT V6. The only odd man is the RX-7, but if that car had a piston engine, it would be a TT V6.

Rather than waste their time with the LFA, I think they should've put their effort into two cars that mortals might actually go out and buy - something serious to replace the dog turd SC430, and a CLS competitor with some proper style.

Marvey · « **Reply #237 on:** September 17, 2012, 06:40:09 PM »

Maybe they will come out with a Lexus Supra

catscratch · « **Reply #238 on:** September 17, 2012, 07:26:03 PM »

[pedantic git]Supra is an inline 6[/pedantic git]. Also we're not in the 90s anymore. CAFE regulations are going to hit, which means that for a volume manufacturer it makes a lot more sense to release a sports car along the lines of the BMW i8 prototype than following the classic formula. Besides, where does the classic formula start? Is it a twin turbo 6? Is it a NA6? Fuel Injection? Knight-cycle engines? Steam? The car industry has gone through so many iterations that just because we see the 90s Japanese cars as iconic doesn't mean that they need to repeat themselves.

Marvey · « **Reply #239 on:** September 17, 2012, 10:15:00 PM »

Hybrid. Have an electric motor supplement the gas engine for moar power. I expect another jump in hybrid technology in a few years.

We don't have to be stuck in the 90s or 60s (referring to Ford's Mustang - I hate the 60s cues.)

Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)

catscratch

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

maverickronin

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Anaxilus.

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

DaveBSC

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Anaxilus.

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

DaveBSC

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

catscratch

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)