Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)

DaveBSC · « **Reply #220 on:** September 15, 2012, 10:10:51 PM »

Quote from: catscratch on September 15, 2012, 07:40:58 PM

We really need to adopt diesel faster. I had a little BMW 118d in Italy which I thrashed all over the place on little mountain roads and on highways at up to 120mph and it still netted over 50mpg. The 320ed is (despite the terrible name) a much more US-friendly car that's faster and even more efficient. I just don't see much point in a gas engine in a car without performance aspirations compared to diesel. Mind you, sulfur emissions are a problem but we can probably fix that.

Definitely. Supposedly the 245hp version of the A6 3.0TDi will make its way here eventually, which is definitely a car I could see myself in. Too bad we won't get the full fat version with 300hp and 450ft.lbs.

Marvey · « **Reply #221 on:** September 15, 2012, 10:15:50 PM »

You sure it wasn't the 599 or ISF which had vague steering? The C&D article kind of said the LFA out Ferrari'd the Ferrari.

Anaxilus. · « **Reply #222 on:** September 16, 2012, 05:00:35 AM »

Most criticisms of the LFA completely miss the point. You could have more power than the naturally aspirated 552hp 4.8L V-10 that can rev past 10k+ RPM by using a supercharged or boosted 6.0L V-8 that's sounds like an elephant farting up and down the track or spins your led sled around in donuts unintentionally. There is nothing 'drag' racy about the LFA and thank goodness for it.

It's engine is derived from the Formula one V-10 (detuned from the 850-900hp spec that spins beyond 18k+ RPM) of a team that had consistently the 3rd-5th best car on the track any given year only hampered by the decision to invest solely in hardware and not in drivers. If you keep forcing the best F1 cars on Olivier Panis (Oliver Penis), Jarno Trulli and Timo Glock, you can see what happens. Oh wait, you can see that now, they sit at the bottom of the grid every race. The best drivers Toyota ever had in F1 were Ralf Schumacher (Michael's much less accomplished brother) who almost died three times due to negligence from crap Michelin tires and Kobayashi who only got a shot the last year of Toyota's program. McNish can only really do Rally car, LeMans or DTG. Driver feedback is essential to tuning the suspension and aero package for each track, if they suck, your team sucks, the end.

The LFA is not just a sports car, it's an homage to the history of Toyota and distinct character of Lexus. Toyota started by making cotton gins and weaving cotton. To honor this heritage, Toyota developed their own carbon fiber gin to weave CF for the monocoque using the process you see in the above video. It is only one of two or three such types of gins like this in the world. This homage also dropped almost 100lbs off the total weight of the vehicle and improved rigidity and will help move CF production into more mainstream production cars from a future Supra to the Prius.

It doesn't use a DSG because DSGs add more weight and remove the F1 feel of driving an F1 trans which is a exactly what they use. Akio Toyoda (who actually races and has done so in Le Mans) said this was his call based on the feel he wanted the car to have on the track. Guess what, it's his family's company, no serious LFA buyer would care anyway. F1 does not use DSGs. The sequential is what is used in real racing and sportsbikes and had to be detuned as well to make the car last in daily driving rather than just a single race. The headers, exhaust and interior piping were designed by the acoustic engineers at Yamaha to recreate the special tune of the F1 car. The Tach is digital because it only takes the V-10 0.6 secs to rev to redline and no analog gauge can keep accurate pace. The interior is pure Lexus luxury and quality with comfort and the touch of exotic leather and materials in mind. It also has a 12 speaker, surround sound, Mark Levinson audio system which audio pros know is one of the best peforming stock systems you can buy off the lot.

[size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BvVM1OdMUk[/size]

Unlike a Ferrai 458 or Aventador (both which I love) you could drive the LFA everyday in pure comfort and harmony with Toyota reliability. It is a serious car in every way and not a toy for the rich to get in a few thrills before things start falling off the car. There is only one so called 'production car' that turned in a faster Nurburgring laptime and that is the last uber Viper ACR model. Which is pretty strippe d down and has none of the amenities the LFA has.

[size=78%]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_8UefXdYGA&feature=related[/size]

The only other competitor that tries to do the same things is the McLaren Mp4-12c. Here's the catch too, the LFA is not really designed to be a Supercar. It's the epitome of a Lexus Grand Tourer (GT car). Think Lexus version of an Aston Martin. Imagine if Toyota had decided to make a proper MR supercar.

But then again, Toyota already built a supercar that Chevy, Ford, Dodge and Porsche never did. So who cares.

Of the three manufacturers in this picture, only one also builds cheap, reliable cars people count on all the time. I think that's pretty cool.

If you consider buying the LFA and have to click the 'compare' button, you've missed the point entirely and have no business owning the car. People that know what it is and can afford one most likely already have one. They don't give a shit what the Shelby, GTR or ZR1 do from 0-62mph or how much hp they make. Toyota built the car they wanted to make and only made 500 of them for the world. Most people won't even have the LFA as an option to choose from. Though even faster versions are coming for those that want them.

DaveBSC · « **Reply #223 on:** September 16, 2012, 08:33:09 AM »

What I see is a lot of excuses and apologizing. If I've just dropped nearly $400K on a super car and yes it IS a super car, nobody is cross shopping an Aston DB9 with a LFA, this SHOULD NOT HAPPEN. Period.

This is against a 2010 GT-R, not a 2013 which is more powerful and has a better launch control. The 1/4 priced Nissan will win any race on the street, and can probably match it now on a drag strip as well. That's pathetic.

I think this is the most relevant video I can post. The comparison to the NSX is apt. It's basically the same car 20 years later - a "look what we can do" showcase to point at racing teams from a company without any real racing heritage, one that promises to be the "every day" super car, after all, it's a Honda (Toyota). It's just too much money, and it's too compromised. The 911 and the R8 are every day super cars. The PDK is a transmission you can actually use on the street, not some F1 stand-in. The R8's original SMG transmission sucked to, but it's all they had access to at the time that could handle the power. They didn't try to make excuses that the jerky sluggishness was like their Le Mans prototype cars. They knew it sucked, and R8s now come with their excellent S-tronic DSG. SMGs suck. BMW's stunk, Lamborghini's stunk, Aston Martin's was atrocious, they're all bad and Lexus is just as guilty. The "it saves weight and has F1 feel" is silly nonsense.

If you're designing a GT, you don't put the engine in the middle. The SLS AMG is a GT car. The Aston DBS is a GT car. The LFA is a super car, one that seems like Toyota's answer to the Carrera GT and Mercedes SLR. The problem is that the super car world has moved on since those cars, and the LFA hasn't.

Marvey · « **Reply #224 on:** September 16, 2012, 04:45:05 PM »

Why you would you drag race any of these cars? 0-60 is dumb once you reach a certain level of power.

Personally, I car about the brakes and suspension more. (I upgraded brakes and suspension before getting any serious power on my old Evo.) And saving weight, even a 100 lbs, makes a huge difference on the track.

I think it's hard to compare the LFA against anything else. It's basically a super luxury car that you take the track and beat everyone else. Personally I think it's an interesting concept (luxury track car), but I can understand why you think it's retarded. It will be interesting to see if the buyers take them to the track or let them sit in their garages.

MuppetFace · « **Reply #225 on:** September 16, 2012, 05:45:59 PM »

When it comes to cars like these, I don't really bother with logical arguments. I go with the emotional response that wells up inside me.

Personally, I love the LFA.

Anaxilus. · « **Reply #226 on:** September 16, 2012, 05:53:56 PM »

Like I said Dave, you've missed the point completely. The car isn't for you. Even if all my so called 'excuses' convinced you otherwise, you'd never be able to own this car anyway. Akio Toyoda doesn't care that you like the GTR better. All my statements are valid and sound regardless of how you feel about them. I'm sorry many novices are not able to drive a sequential properly in lower speed traffic, it's an acquired skill which took me a few years to nail down in stop and go traffic.

If you feel the car is just an excuse designed by committee and shows Toyota's incompetence to design a supercar, why did they choose a FR layout over an MR then? Please explain their confusion.

Comparing any AWD system to a FR in a drag race is just ridiculous. The LFA owner looking at the idiot in the Shelby reving his V8 at the stop light will think he's a prepubescent tool. I'm sure Kyle Busch was thinking how horrible the LFA was when he got ticketed for doing 128mph in a 45mph zone.

NSX? Please. I have yet to see one that broke 60,000 miles w/o having been towed on the back of a tow truck at least a few times. Go drive an NSX and then an LFA and come back and tell me the NSX is the more rewarding and enjoyable experience.

Let me know when the other 'supercars' you mentioned do 7:14 on the ring too.

This is like comparing speakers and audio gear based solely on one measurement.

Marvey · « **Reply #227 on:** September 16, 2012, 07:25:06 PM »

Quote from: MuppetFace on September 16, 2012, 05:45:59 PM

When it comes to cars like these, I don't really bother with logical arguments. I go with the emotional response that wells up inside me.

Personally, I love the LFA.

It looks even better in person. (The Ferraris and especially Lambos always manage to look not as good in person than in the pictures.) I've gotten to see a lot of fancy cars in person, and this one was really sweet, especially inside. I'm pretty jaded as far as fancy interiors, but this one just simply "OMFG, thats nice!" I'm glad Kyle Busch is enjoying it!

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/driveon/post/2011/08/nascars-kyle-busch-on-speeding-lexus-lfa-irresistable/1#.UFYnAY3N8R8

DaveBSC · « **Reply #228 on:** September 16, 2012, 10:35:29 PM »

Quote from: Analixus on September 16, 2012, 05:53:56 PM

Comparing any AWD system to a FR in a drag race is just ridiculous. The LFA owner looking at the idiot in the Shelby reving his V8 at the stop light will think he's a prepubescent tool. I'm sure Kyle Busch was thinking how horrible the LFA was when he got ticketed for doing 128mph in a 45mph zone.

NSX? Please. I have yet to see one that broke 60,000 miles w/o having been towed on the back of a tow truck at least a few times. Go drive an NSX and then an LFA and come back and tell me the NSX is the more rewarding and enjoyable experience.

Let me know when the other 'supercars' you mentioned do 7:14 on the ring too.

This is like comparing speakers and audio gear based solely on one measurement.

I don't want one, never have. Aren't there LFAs still available for sale though? How long did it take them to move 500 cars?

550HP ain't enough, no ands, ifs, or buts. The GT-R is a monster off the line, but anything with some real fire power under the hood like the Ferrari F12 is going to be miles ahead at the 1/4. I'm sure I couldn't care less what Kyle Busch is doing at any given moment. Motortrend seemed to come to pretty much that exact conclusion - the NSX is the more enjoyable car.

Ring lap times are fine. However, I think on the street, the typical owner wouldn't be any faster than somebody in a 911 Turbo, and that probably goes for owners on track days at places like VIR or Mazda Raceway. See:

It couldn't out lap a GT-R, R8 V-10 GT, or even the lowly Z06 on the tracks people are actually likely to use it on. It was also the 4th car to lose the best drivers car competition.

I'm not a hedge fund manager, and the only thing I would ever conceive spending $400K on is a house. Anybody who buys an LFA has more money than sense, so I'm sure they can buy an Aventador and a Ferrari F12 as well, and put them on their car elevator. I will never own and don't have any interest in owning any of these. Something like a 911 Carrera 4S is a car I would actually buy if I wanted a sports car to actually drive on the road with other cars, but that would only be after I already have a CLS63 AMG or Audi S6 in my garage.

In terms of interiors, the LFA is fine, I think it's pretty standard super car stuff, I'm not blown away by it. The one company that knocks my socks off with their interiors is Pagani. Just incredible, I don't think even the Veyron interior is this impressive.

ocswing · « **Reply #229 on:** September 16, 2012, 11:20:07 PM »

Quote from: DaveBSC on September 16, 2012, 10:35:29 PM

In terms of interiors, the LFA is fine, I think it's pretty standard super car stuff, I'm not blown away by it. The one company that knocks my socks off with their interiors is Pagani. Just incredible, I don't think even the Veyron interior is this impressive.

Obviously getting into personal preference, but that is gaudy as hell. No thanks.

Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)

DaveBSC

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Anaxilus.

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

DaveBSC

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

MuppetFace

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Anaxilus.

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

Marvey

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

DaveBSC

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

ocswing

Re: Thinking about a new car, need some help.

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Author Topic: The New Car Saga (and general auto chat) (Read 158892 times)