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Author Topic: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)  (Read 4645 times)

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RexAeterna

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #20 on: September 13, 2014, 06:00:15 PM »

I also don't use the video upconversion of my Yammie. I need to play with its equalizer though. See what I get, but haven't yet.


Is it complicated? My onkyo really just have eq presents for surround sound dsp features of doby digital and dts. For pcm and analog stereo I just have basic bass and treble tone controls besides the intellivolume input gain and subwoofer crossover options.  For headphones it cuts everything off and is only stereo listening which I like. Don't care for features like doby headphones or anything.
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ultrabike

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #21 on: September 13, 2014, 06:06:15 PM »

The presets are just a click away, but I tend not to use them. There are two equalizers as far as I can tell, the auto one and a graphical one that one may play around with but it required more manual reading.

I also don't care too much about the Dolby headphone or whatever thingy. I do like the audio decoding capabilities though, considering that content owners release this and that on any given random codec. There used to be a lot of voodoo talk (maybe still now) about the incredible qualities of the HD codec$.
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RexAeterna

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #22 on: September 13, 2014, 09:01:42 PM »

I think mine has a graphic eq but never checked. I only know of the basic tone control options.  The manual I found online was so ridiculous I only scanned through to figure the subwoofer crossover setting, what hp gain/level was,and how to assign the digital inputs.  I had to ask and read around to understand what the intellivolume really did and hp level/speaker level gain really did. I was also confused when I was asked if I had my digital volume set to relative (thx standard) or absolute (normal). I'll play with it later to check see if it has graphics eq options.
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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2014, 12:03:48 AM »

I find that all that over-complicated stuff is just useless.


The real trick to dialing in a home theater is speaker placement and proper sub-woofer calibration. If you can nail those two things, you'll most likely have an awesome home theater.


My old home theater had a Kenwood THX receiver, 7 JBL 4311's, an a huge SVS tube sub that went down to 12Hz. Sound was awesome. :)
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RexAeterna

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2014, 12:51:31 AM »

I find that all that over-complicated stuff is just useless.


The real trick to dialing in a home theater is speaker placement and proper sub-woofer calibration. If you can nail those two things, you'll most likely have an awesome home theater.


My old home theater had a Kenwood THX receiver, 7 JBL 4311's, an a huge SVS tube sub that went down to 12Hz. Sound was awesome. :)

I know what you mean. I still believe in proper speaker placement and stereo can provide you 360 degree sound. Old house I use to have pretty well treated dead sounding room and had perfect speaker imagining.  Current place is temporary cause I plan on moving out of state so now I have deal with what I have. I still want to try get pair of perfectly matched Yamaha ns10's and it'll be my last upgrade ever...maybe.

I do find the interfaces complicated and unnecessary most cases. Only use I find and like as mentioned is the internal electronic subwoofer crossover options.
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ultrabike

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2014, 05:49:13 AM »

My old home theater had a Kenwood THX receiver, 7 JBL 4311's, an a huge SVS tube sub that went down to 12Hz. Sound was awesome. :)

p:8

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ultrabike

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2014, 09:47:04 AM »

K. So I spent some quality time w my Yammy + HD600s. The Yammy has ample room to run them, and introduces some warmth to them Senns, but keeps clarity. Not the most resolving pairing, but no muddy window either. Pretty engaging and pleasant sound. No bansheeness issues.

Furthermore, measured my Yammy's (RX-V663/HTR-6061) headphone out using multimeter and RMAA goodness, and this is what I got:

Output impedance: 98 ohms
Maximum voltage swing (no load): 9.77 Vrms
Maximum voltage swing (300 ohms): 5.06 Vrms (proly current starving somehow)

RMAA results attached (downloadable PDF files below the summary and post) for no load (@ 0.393 Vrms), 300 ohm load (@ 0.397 Vrms), and 32 ohm load (@0.387 Vrms).

Summary:

No Load




300 ohm Load





32 ohm Load





I think I paid $350 for this brand new. Proly could have done much better with a refurbished older model, but not too bad IMO.

Haven't tried using the speaker taps yet which might not hold back the amp as much as the headcan out.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2014, 10:05:41 AM by ultrabike »
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ultrabike

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2014, 10:00:47 PM »

Anyhow, I know these receivers are sort of discontinued, but they do provide some sort of an example of what to expect from entry level receivers in general.

Based on what I've found from the Yammy:

1) It will perform OK with high impedance cans, but performance degrades with low impedance ones. It's not horrible though. At least not as horrible as the Benchmark white paper would lead me to believe.

2) The frequency response will be fairly flat regardless. Even into 32 ohms, and considering the 98 ohm output impedance.

3) Not all entry level commercial A/V receivers are the same. According to Rex, it seems most entry level Yammys are class D, while Onkyo are class A/B. If correct, this explains the differences in operation temperature and perhaps performance.

4) Running of speaker taps might work better than running of the headphone out. Depending on receiver model. Haven't tried that yet with my receiver yet.

5) My particular Yammy only has one  headphone out, and it's impedance seems to be somewhere in the 98 ohms range. If needing to drive more than one headphone, splitting the port to drive several cans will put the cans in parallel and lower the load resistance quite a bit... This might make the receiver struggle unless a distribution amp is used which makes the amplifier sort of redundant. Splitting the can out will work though, but performance will degrade.

6) Higher end and current offerings from some established and classic receiver brands still lack some meaningful headphone driving specs, and perhaps even careful thought on their headphone out design. This is proly not the case w the Schiit Ragnarok.
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RexAeterna

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2014, 01:38:34 AM »

interesting results there ultrabike. i kinda assumed the receivers perform better with higher impedance loads. lower impedance ones i never have much experience with and only low impedance headphones i ever owned which was pain to drive was pair of pioneer monitor 10's for some odd reason. the k601 and 702's did fine in whatever i plugged them into. my fostex seem to perform fine in either headphone out i use too but of course can sound harsh in the upper registers depending what it's plugged into.

i don't know how the onkyo would perform and supposedly was considered ''middle'' entry to the 702 which had tons more features besides power. not sure on the impedance out of the onkyo but i assume if anything it's probably somewhere in the 120ohm standard range. i just know it looks to use no chips and is using same power amp section like a traditional receiver or integrated amp does. i do like how it performs with my headphones and is satisfying enough where i hear no graininess or unusual roughness or even warm bass. just of course doesn't sound as ''clear'' as my harman kardon but sounds similar frequency response wise or sound wise if that makes sense.

i just like the 24-bit 192khz circcus logic dac it has cause it's useful for using other sources when my interface is hooked up to my laptop or something cause to me the inside dac seems to perform well for plain ol' music play back and it sounds clear to me so i keep it hooked up via rg6 75ohm coaxial to my computer what i use mainly just for music and movies.

i got the onkyo for 125 which was best deal i found at the trading post. i just looked at the insides,picked it up to feel the weight and tested it at the store see if it works and took it home. only other thing i did was read up real quick on the specs and saw ''low negative feedback design'' which i though was interesting and liked. other then that i figured everything about it at home going online and asking around.

is your yamaha considered all discrete?
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ultrabike

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Re: are ht receivers that bad? i dont think so(my first experience)
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2014, 04:36:03 AM »

Seems like the RX-V663 has "an all channel discrete amplifier configuration" according to this white paper:

http://www.diamondcase.com/Manuals_PDFs/Yamaha/RXV663.pdf

The weight there appears to be wrong though. The manual lists it as 26 Ibs (not 32 Ibs). It's heavy. Heavier than the not-so-well regarded receiver that replaced it (RX-V665). It's about 7 Ibs lighter than your 33 Ibs SR602.

LOL! Just read the manual and the headphone output impedance is indeed rated at 100 ohms. That's not far from the 98 ohms I measured.

http://www2.yamaha.co.jp/manual/pdf/av/english/re/RX-V663_U.pdf

It is also rated 150 mV into 8 ohms (proly rms). This yields a current limitation of ~18.7 mA. At 300 ohms the most voltage I could get was 5.06 Vrms which yields about 16.9 mA. So kind of close. In other words, the headphone output seems current limited to somewhere between 16.9 (measurements) to 18.7 mA (specs)

I don't think the speaker tabs will be current limited, and the output impedance would proly be like > 0.67 ohms (given 120 damping factor into 8 ohms listed in the manual). So they will probably kick some ass. Lots of current from those ports though, kinda scary.

Not sure about this amp being class D though. It might be class A/B, but maybe optimized for idle power compared to the Onkyo. Dunno. Possible the Onkyo requires for that reason less feedback at the expense of heat dissipation. Some talk about random features vs. performance here:

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amplifier/trading

It includes a little discussion about the RX-V663 vs the "full featured" (and compromised) RX-V665.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2014, 05:20:05 AM by ultrabike »
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