CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

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Author Topic: headphone power ... what do you need ?  (Read 5091 times)

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anetode

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2013, 04:47:51 PM »

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Solderdude

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2013, 05:57:06 PM »

Power rating is the wattage required for what SPL?
I realize now that I was looking at the 90dB and 105dB columns as watts instead of milliwatts. Whoops!

power rating is the (max) Wattage that the headphone can handle.
No manufacturer ever mentions whether this is continuous or music power.
Continuous power is when a constant sinewave is applied and the voice coil isn't fried.
With music power I mean the following:
When a headphone is rated at 200mW (0.2W) and the average level is 50mW the peaks (which can be very short) could easily be 500mW.
That is if the amp can supply this, a 200mW rated headphone thus can handle short peaks exceeding that of the rating without damage.
For electrostats this is different as you run the risks of sparks punching holes in the membrane.

Efficiency = in dB/mW and is a normalized value and differs from the often used dB/V (which usually is a much higher number)
In the table the dB/V values have been converted to dB/mW
xx dB/mW means when you apply 1milliWatt the headphone will put out xx dB
xx dB/V  means when you apply 1Volt the headphone will put out xx dB

The question is how the manufacturer measured it... at 1kHz or with white or pink noise or another method.
We will never know..
The numbers thus aren't telling that much but they do tell us ballpark figures.

Max SPL is simply a calculation based on the power rating and efficiency but as said peak SPL may even be above that value.
Also as this is merely a calculation it isn't written in stone as at higher SPL distortion sets in and the output will most likely compress so when 125dB is calculated a headphone may well put out 122dB instead where the same one will give 100dB SPL in reality and calculated.

These numbers say nothing about how GOOD the headphone sounds, it only says something about how loud it goes, not how loud it is perceived as distortion levels play a role here as well.

Also note that some numbers are supplied by manufacturers or other sources (Tyll's plots are such a source) and when you look at the numbers of similar headphones in Tyll's plots it is easy to see these numbers sometimes are far apart for similar headphones.
Sometimes they are closely the same as the one the manufacturer provides sometimes they differ many dB's.

Also there is a question whether manufacturers have changed the driver (silently) over time.

Much uncertainties...

I also have written some articles on power and impedances etc.
No idea if or not I can place a link to my website but the little globe-icon below on the left will take you there.
in 'Technical explanations | power, impedance etc.' there are links to those articles.

NwAvdeuce certainly doesn't agree with everything I wrote in there.
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Anaxilus

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2013, 06:44:46 PM »

Okay.  Where can I learn about all of the stuff mentioned in the chart?

Is there a good article that would explain it all in relation to headphones/audio gear rather than something more generic?

This old guy is always ready to learn something new...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ohm%27s_law

Solderdude's post above should help put things into proper context.
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Thujone

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2013, 06:53:42 PM »

Thank you so much, that really helped clear some things up for me. So, theoretically, a Magni can power almost anything to a decent level. I guess it gets more complicated when you start comparing scalability of headphones (which can't be shown with numbers as far as I understand). Some cans just sound very similar regardless of the source/amp and others are much pickier. As an amp's purpose is to only amplify the source signal to decent listening levels, if you still think your amp isn't "giving the headphones enough juice" even if it can drive them to listening levels as depicted in that chart, you are more specifically not liking the signature of one of the pieces of your equipment; the amp is doing its job just fine (generally).
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ultrabike

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2013, 06:56:43 PM »

I also have written some articles on power and impedances etc.
No idea if or not I can place a link to my website but the little globe-icon below on the left will take you there.
in 'Technical explanations | power, impedance etc.' there are links to those articles.

NwAvdeuce certainly doesn't agree with everything I wrote in there.

http://diyaudioheaven.wordpress.com/tutorials/power-impedance-etc/

 :)p5
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:02:42 PM by ultrabike »
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Anaxilus

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2013, 07:02:59 PM »

As an amp's purpose is to only amplify the source signal to decent listening levels, if you still think your amp isn't "giving the headphones enough juice" even if it can drive them to listening levels as depicted in that chart, you are more specifically not liking the signature of one of the pieces of your equipment; the amp is doing its job just fine (generally).

Incorrect.  An amps job is to also maintain the proper driver through the dynamic portions (macro and micro) of a musical piece.  These are maximum and minimum absolutes based on SPL and do not consider the ability to drive phones over a time domain.  Many would be astonished about how much drive various peaks in their music require (dynamic swings) to be rendered properly based on the requisite dynamic contrast present in the original piece of music.  Plus some other more nebulous questions like voltage drive versus current drive, and the ability of an amp to reduce it's own sonic character from impacting the source signal, among other factors.  This is just the X axis, without consideration of Y or Z.  Something Voldemort never comprehended/conceded because it invalidated his raison d'etre.  Amps still have a bit of mystery to them just like everything else in the physical and scientific world.  Don't be too dismissive.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 07:20:01 PM by Anaxilus »
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Thujone

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2013, 07:36:27 PM »

Ok, sweet. As much as you made it more of an open book, you also helped clear it up a bit more. What I understand from what you said is that an amp's ability to drive a headphone to a certain SPL is not at all proportional to an amp's ability to handle dynamic swings (i.e. complex passages vs. non complex?). I'm not sure I completely understand the "dynamic swing". I do know that the Ember does a much better job with more complex passages without struggling when compared to the Emotiva.
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OJneg

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2013, 10:46:30 PM »

Great resource.

Did you grab this data of Tyll's datasheets?
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Solderdude

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #18 on: December 13, 2013, 06:04:03 AM »

I used manufacturers data, any info I could find on the web, Tyll's measurements and personalaudio.ru measurements.
In case I had more sets of data I chose to average Tyll's and/or PA.ru data in preference of manufacturers data.

Manufacturers do not always supply the info I seek nor may they be very truthful or mix dBV and dBmW.

I only picked the most common on-ear and over-ear headphones I could find some data of.
Electrostats and NC excluded.

If I were to put all headphones in the list would become very long not too mention if I were to include IEM's and buds.

Those that like to see data of headphones I did not post in there please mention them if they are well regarded and not obscure.
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funkmeister

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Re: headphone power ... what do you need ?
« Reply #19 on: December 13, 2013, 09:00:57 AM »

Hey... this is a cool project. So cool, in fact, that I worked on one back in 2012 to get the milliamps figured for amps and buffers. I update it every now and then like I just put in the AKG Kx12 models.

So here's mine: http://sdrv.ms/18FZhGh

It's all about column L for me. Above 25mA requires moredesign work. But the mathematical ceiling is usually determined by M1.

I hope I'm not stepping on toes here but instead helping the cause.
 :ship:
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