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Author Topic: DTS Headphone:X ????  (Read 6967 times)

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Tyll Hertsens

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2013, 02:03:21 PM »

I've given up on new "technologies" like this. To me, they are just gimmicks in hopes of earning an extra buck. I sometimes wonder if these DSP engineers understand how the ear and mastering actually work.

I don't want to be an apologist for corporate R&D departments, but I wouldn't be too quick to cheapen their work with words like "gimmick" and "extra buck". Yeah, I think they live in a different world, and yeah, I think they get lead around by the nose by "the body of research (that often sucks)" or by marketing departments that don't know the real line between fantasy and what can actually be pulled off. But the guys working on this stuff (based on my experience in the past with Sennheiser and recent trips to Harman and DTS) are very well informed and up to speed on the problems and how difficult they are to solve.

I think we suffer from "group think" on these issues as well, and sometimes think the we've got special knowledge that others "aren't getting". The truth, however, is more along the lines of everybody fumbling around as best they can in a fuster cluck of human endeavor.  Our heads (the royal "our" meaning everybody involved) are way ahead of what we can actually make appear in the market. So what looks like a gimmick is really just a small step in the right direction, but it's a very small step....to small to be worth much on its own.



Bottom line: pschoacoustics are tough. They're bound to fumble around for quite a while solving the problems. And until they do, their products will sound like gimmicks. But I'll betcha that as manufacturers make better headphones, and as folks like DTS put a create a corporate demand for headphones that perform well, we'll start seeing things like Headphone-X working better and better.
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Tyll (like on the floor only spelled different)

Anaxilus.

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2013, 05:38:30 PM »

Surround sound in headphones via DSP has been long proven in gaming, so the technology is very real.  As always, implementation is key.
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DaveBSC

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2013, 06:26:07 PM »

Question: how does this compare to what the Realiser does? I would think anything less than that wouldn't be worth bothering with. As Tyll has said, unless you have THE headphone they used, it's not gonna work.
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Tyll Hertsens

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2013, 09:41:12 PM »

Question: how does this compare to what the Realiser does? I would think anything less than that wouldn't be worth bothering with. As Tyll has said, unless you have THE headphone they used, it's not gonna work.

As far as I'm aware: a full calibration on the Realizer has you sitting in a room with a good surround system with mikes in your ears. The system takes a snapshot of the acoustics.
Then you sit with the headphones on still with mikes in your ears, and the system looks at the difference in the response.
Then it calculates a filter to compensate for the difference, at which point you should hear on the headphones what you heard on the speakers.
From then on whenever you listen to the Realizer you are listening to a recreation of your ears in that room.

DTS is different in that they're trying to come up with generic compensations.
Their approach assumes that if they do a good enough job modeling what the human ear hears with surround speakers in various positions that eventually they will be able to get a signal good enough that your mind will have enough believability that it's willing to be fooled.
I think that for them to reach that point they'll have to measure the headphone models and create filters which include compensations for the various headphones.
They mentioned that eventually they may be in the business of finding good headphones and measureing them, and then awarding the cans the "DTS Seal of Approval" (or something like that) which the manufacturer can put on the headphones or packaging. Those headphones would appear in a drop-down list in the DTS movie player app.

Again, I see this as a market force from DTS on manufacturers to make better headphones, as the more linear the headphone is the easier it will be---and therefore the more effective---to virtualize the sound of external speakers.
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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2013, 09:49:35 PM »

Well, the HD800 seems a logical candidate.

I'd worry w/o a serious enough commitment they'll be burning money to find themselves where 3Dtv finds itself today.  It has to significantly resonate w/ the market and fit their lifestyle.  The trick seems to be avoiding the same path that 3Dtv has down.  It's not going to be enough if it elicits a, "oh, that's kind of neat...I guess" response.
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Tyll Hertsens

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2013, 10:03:31 PM »

Yupper, I absolutely agree with that.

If they have trouble succeeding with relative efficiency it may start to look like a bad idea to upper-management and get shut down. FWIW however, they did seem pretty committed to the idea.
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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2013, 11:46:27 PM »

The one thing I have been wondering about soundstage/imaging is how much of the audible queues that we use to interpret this aspect of sound varies from person to person.    This relates to what Purrin said about conditioning himself to hear the surround sound in the recording.  I find that I am more able to hear sound coming the front with headphones on if I am actively focused on projecting the sound in that way. 

There are many people with contradicting opinions on what is a natural or neutral sound.  I think the general consensus is that each individual hears these differently, which is likely due to a different point of reference for what natural or neutral sound is.  Is it possible that the same goes for soundstage/imaging/surround sound.  Would someone who is used to listening to surround sound find this technology to be more accurate vs those of us who have developed a sense of hearing based on stereo or headphone listening?  Maybe even someone who plays in an orchestra and regularly hears music in "surround sound"?

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Deep Funk

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2013, 12:18:59 AM »

The one thing I have been wondering about soundstage/imaging is how much of the audible queues that we use to interpret this aspect of sound varies from person to person.    This relates to what Purrin said about conditioning himself to hear the surround sound in the recording.  I find that I am more able to hear sound coming the front with headphones on if I am actively focused on projecting the sound in that way. 

There are many people with contradicting opinions on what is a natural or neutral sound.  I think the general consensus is that each individual hears these differently, which is likely due to a different point of reference for what natural or neutral sound is.  Is it possible that the same goes for soundstage/imaging/surround sound.  Would someone who is used to listening to surround sound find this technology to be more accurate vs those of us who have developed a sense of hearing based on stereo or headphone listening?  Maybe even someone who plays in an orchestra and regularly hears music in "surround sound"?

I would think, going by your questions and notions that a number of minimum requirements would be in order:
1. A relatively flat midrange
2. Subtly elevated low end and high end response
3. An open or semi-open (ventilated) ear cup structure
4. Comfortable yet sturdy ear pads to keep the sound from leaking (too much)

I base this on my prior experience with headphones. Philips (HP1000 & HP9000) and AKG (K240 DF, K500) are very capable in this respect with stereo headphones. The U-shaped equalization for the Sennheiser HD250 II Linear was also very nice every genre of music I could think of (albeit being the exception to the above mentioned criteria in some ways.)

In my opion DTS engineers should look at professional monitoring headphones if they have not done so already.
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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2013, 04:47:07 PM »

I do wonder if sonic cues from subtle changes in head positioning (out heads never stay still) play a large part in maintaining that illusion.
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Armaegis

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Re: DTS Headphone:X ????
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2013, 04:52:49 PM »

Has anyone ever tried that Headzone system from Beyerdynamic? It's got this doohickey that you stick on the headphone that measures your head rotation/location or something like that, so it changes the processing depending on your orientation.
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Do you think there may be an acoustic leak from the jack hole? ~Tyll Hertsens

Not sure if I like stuffing one hole or both holes. Tending toward one hole since both holes seems kinda ghey ~Purrin
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