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Author Topic: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd  (Read 12013 times)

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ultrabike

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2013, 08:48:26 PM »
Quote from: jGray91 on June 17, 2013, 04:23:31 PM
Thanks for the replies. Again, I'm sorry I touched on a sore point.

I don't think this is much of a problem if you are being honest about your questions.

What has seemingly happened before is certain individuals would start to question measurements and methodology (here and there) with the apparent purpose to put down results and work for not so noble reasons and ends.

As far as peer reviews is concerned, I personally (and some others) have repeated Purrin's measurements to some degree successfully. I had and have NOT seen Purrin's setup in person. It seems some people have and may have provided pictures to Jude... for seemingly not so noble reasons. Even so I was still able to replicate some of the results with out Purrin's direct intervention. Obviously at this point Purrin's approach is NOT A BIG SECRET. I believe I understand the basis of his approach and in while I'm obviously not an expert in headphone characterization, I agree with some of the reasoning behind his approach.

Rin runs a public blog, and in his pages he has been very critical of Tyll, Purrin, and pretty much all not-Rin in terms of methodology. At head-fi he seemed to lobby strongly for some sort of DF approach and strongly feels that his way is the right way. There are people that have been working on a proper methodology to measure headphones way before Rin, and currently I'm not aware of an approach that has been universally adopted as the standard and "correct way". There are current AES and other papers that are still presenting results and research about it. So I don't get why Rin (or anybody) at this point feels they have it all figured out, and others have it wrong. Basing oneself on standards at this point does not earn a stronger position, because AFAIK these standards do not have a strong and universally agreed justification yet. A more prudent approach would be to understand that headphone characterization is still a hot research topic (which by the way still relies in subjective appreciation statistics...)

On a slightly different subject, one of the many things that drew me here was that the results and impressions presented correlate strongly with my impressions. The DT990 measurements in other places made it seem possibly enjoyable. I was strongly bias to like them. I did not like them much and impressions and measurements here better explain why. Similar could be said of the many other headphones that have been discussed here.
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thegunner100

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »
The meet price is now $800 (20%) + free impressions now, at least that's what I paid for mine during the April NY meet. Dunno if it's different for the meets in Cali, but still a good deal imo. In reality, most people are going to need to get refits on their UERMs and you have to consider the cost of that when you pay for the UERMs. The UE techs have to carefully follow your refit directions (they have to get paid of course), and then UE needs to send it back to you, usually via 1 or 2 day shipping, which adds onto the cost.

On a side note, the measurements here really do correlate with what I hear in my headphones, and helps me train train my ears. Thanks, Purrin and headphone lenders!
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Marvey

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 09:09:42 PM »
Quote from: Analixus on June 17, 2013, 08:22:15 PM
On a side note, James has purchased my TF10 and it will be sent to Rin for modding and comparison by him and others versus a UERM.  Not sure I can disclose any further details but that should be a cute experiment.


Will the modded TF10 be enclosed in a custom shell to replication functionality? If not, why bother? I mean, starting from say a DBA02 (the newer version) would give one a head start in terms of similarity to sound sig to UERM.
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Anaxilus.

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 09:18:24 PM »
No idea, not my problem.  I didn't make the claim so I have no need to support it.  Obviously the DBA doesn't have the same drivers as the UERM, like the TF10 does... ::)

On the note of peer review, a distinction needs to be made.  On the subject of measurement rigs, there has been quite a bit of peer review/sharing between Tyll, purrin and even Rin to an extent.  Goodly amounts of publicly available data on their respective approaches and papers on which they are based.

The controversial aspect of peer review is that apart from measurement rigs, purrin has made no real claims that require such review to my knowledge.  Rin, on the other hand, seems to make one or two claims per article he publishes that sometimes raise an eyebrow.  We're the Debbie Downer site, Rin's is more like Newsweek/Equirer. 
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tomscy2000

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #34 on: June 18, 2013, 11:13:46 AM »
Quote from: Analixus on June 17, 2013, 09:18:24 PM
No idea, not my problem.  I didn't make the claim so I have no need to support it.  Obviously the DBA doesn't have the same drivers as the UERM, like the TF10 does... ::)

On the note of peer review, a distinction needs to be made.  On the subject of measurement rigs, there has been quite a bit of peer review/sharing between Tyll, purrin and even Rin to an extent.  Goodly amounts of publicly available data on their respective approaches and papers on which they are based.

The controversial aspect of peer review is that apart from measurement rigs, purrin has made no real claims that require such review to my knowledge.  Rin, on the other hand, seems to make one or two claims per article he publishes that sometimes raise an eyebrow.  We're the Debbie Downer site, Rin's is more like Newsweek/Equirer. 

So, by his logic, Nessie = longer-necked Bigfoot?  :boom:

Quote from: purrin on June 17, 2013, 09:09:42 PM
Will the modded TF10 be enclosed in a custom shell to replication functionality? If not, why bother? I mean, starting from say a DBA02 (the newer version) would give one a head start in terms of similarity to sound sig to UERM.

The TF10 *can* replicate the UERM, but not without a complete overhaul of the crossover components, tube lengths, and damper values. Adding another Sonion 2389 in parallel to the UE-HIGH would make things easier, actually. However, with all these changes, the "modded" TF10 != TF10...
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phillip88

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #35 on: June 18, 2013, 01:42:34 PM »
Off-topic:

UERM for $800 only? If it's converted to MYR it'll be three times, and I'll definitely buy one in a heartbeat. Over here, I guess the cost would be a whooping $1400 or so, judging from the retail price of some customs which are made elsewhere and their agents can be found here.

Slightly related topic:
I'm very unsure about the recommendations found on each product. I don't really know how to carry it out. And I'm butthurt when I saw claims that some "novel implementations" on the Flat-4-Sui are not performing as what they were advertised (from what I understand in the passage). Sad Phillip is sad.
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shipsupt

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2013, 02:24:32 PM »
$800 is a meet price, $999 is the normal price.
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

AstralStorm

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #37 on: June 20, 2013, 12:39:07 AM »
Yeah sure, claim that TF10 is the same as UE900 or UERM based on one measurement. Well, vs UE900 it might have some traction. (but that has diff. crosses) Not so vs UERM, which looks like the same crossover as TF10, but different drivers with similar (but definitely not the same) impedances.

UERM is different compensation (no extra bass) and almost doesn't have the shell resonance, AKA effin' ringin'. Lack of this feature would change tonality a lot.
Now then, I haven't heard UERM proper. (some loaner with "eh" fit) But I have heard TF10 and UE900.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2013, 08:02:20 PM by AstralStorm »
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thegunner100

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #38 on: July 17, 2013, 02:39:16 AM »
And it begins... http://www.head-fi.org/t/672716/the-999-vs-99-challenge-tour

Will any of you be joining this?

Edit: just realized that it's a closed tour.
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Kirosia

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #39 on: July 17, 2013, 02:42:34 AM »
I'm pretty sure I can convince AstralStorm to eat the thread starter. If that's the preferred conclusion, I mean.
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