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Author Topic: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd  (Read 12013 times)

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Marvey

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #20 on: June 17, 2013, 03:12:07 PM »

Really? C'mon now. It's a straw man argument. I not writing a scientific journal, purporting to be a final authority on measurements, nor a seeker of absolute "truth".

I also rarely come to "conclusions" which would require peer review. I think the strongest I've ever come to a conclusion is that the ESS DAC chips are really problematic???

I've always advocated using your ears. Look at the measurements. Do they correlate well? A little bit. Or not at all. If not, then best to go elsewhere. The statement (before you register) sums it all up:

The irreverent and probably irrelevant non-authoritative site for headphone measurements, i.e. frequency response graphs, CSD waterfall plots, etc. And without the stupid arguing!
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 03:17:37 PM by purrin »
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shipsupt

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #21 on: June 17, 2013, 03:18:56 PM »

If I understand what you're asking for I'd offer that is already a sort of built in peer review here, albeit not perfect.

The stuff Purrin measures is either owned by, or has been owned by quite a few of the folks around here.  Anything new makes the rounds to a few good listeners, and often a few tin ears like Anax.  We've all compared a lot of impressions over time so I think we've got a pretty good idea of how the others describe gear and what that would sound like to us.  This is something that has built up over time through a lot of comparisons and gear sharing. 

So every time he measures we get a pretty good comparison of our subjective impressions against his objective data. 

As it turns out it almost always ends up being pretty representative of what we are hearing. 

In the few cases that it's not, he checks the system, re-measures, etc... to be sure that nothing went wrong in the process.  Very few times something is uncovered and it is corrected.  Other times we're left surprised at the measurements compared to what we are hearing.

I also know that Purrin has shared his technique with some folks he trust and they are confident that his method is effective, if not completely accurate.  I'm not sure any measurement system can be considered perfect.  The relative results are pretty useful for making comparisons, IMHO. 

The same holds true for Tyll's stuff.  I've heard enough headphones that Tyll has measured to be able to get a good idea of how his measurements will generally reflect what I'll hear.

Without an industry standard there will always be some discussion about what is the "right" way to take measurements.  Without a standard what would a peer review compare against to verify the set up? 

Hell, let's face it, we can't even agree what constitutes a "balanced" amplifier out here in the inter web!
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

jGray91

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #22 on: June 17, 2013, 04:23:31 PM »

Thanks for the replies. Again, I'm sorry I touched on a sore point.
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Thank you based MuppetFace.

Marvey

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #23 on: June 17, 2013, 04:39:48 PM »

Did Rin actually make statements to the effect of "UERM is a rip off - it's a tweaked TF10 - shame on UE" or was that Ink's interpretation?
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Marvey

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 04:49:07 PM »

Thanks for the replies. Again, I'm sorry I touched on a sore point.


It's important to understand that I am not doing "Science" nor "Objectivity" - that I have never purported such, and if people felt that way, they seriously misunderstood me. This is just a little interesting side thing I'm doing.

Now if were to publish my results in AES (which incidentally publishes a lot of bogus shit), that would be different. If I were to make claims that my measurements were more accurate than Golden-ear's or Rin's, then that would be different too.

The question has always been posed: "I am supposed to take the measurement results on blind faith?" The answer is "No!" Ship explains why in his post above. People don't seem to read. They just look at the cover. If you look at the "measurements" posts, you will find plenty of subjective impressions, which may not always agree with the measurements.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 04:56:24 PM by purrin »
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shipsupt

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #25 on: June 17, 2013, 05:02:29 PM »

Thanks for the replies. Again, I'm sorry I touched on a sore point.

Nothing sore here except where my son shot me playing paintball this past weekend!   :)p1
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

wiinippongamer

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #26 on: June 17, 2013, 06:18:51 PM »

Did Rin actually make statements to the effect of "UERM is a rip off - it's a tweaked TF10 - shame on UE" or was that Ink's interpretation?

Quoting from his UERM article: "ON SECOND THOUGHT #4: Is it just me, or the frequency response of the UERM really resembles that of good old Triple.Fi 10 Pro? You be the judge, but as far as their frequency responses are concerned, the deviation here is a matter of a simple crossover circuit / acoustic damper modification. Of course, above response of TF10 can only be achieved when it is situated at the reference plane, meaning when it is custom-molded. Still, there is a chance for reasonable doubt when the price difference is x10. Just sayin', that's all."
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stratocaster

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #27 on: June 17, 2013, 06:21:37 PM »

Thanks for the replies. Again, I'm sorry I touched on a sore point.


It's important to understand that I am not doing "Science" nor "Objectivity" - that I have never purported such, and if people felt that way, they seriously misunderstood me.

Now if were to publish my results in AES (which incidentally publishes a lot of bogus shit), that would be different. If I were to make claims that my measurements were more accurate than Golden-ear's or Rin's, then that would be different too.

The question has always been posed: "I am supposed to take the measurement results on blind faith?" The answer is "No!" ... If you look at the "measurements" posts, you will find plenty of subjective impressions, which may not always agree with the measurements.

The great thing about purrin's measurements does not - at least to me -lie in a (never-made) assumption that his measurements are more accurate than others. By listening to one's headphone, unmodded or after modification, then sending them in and seeing (a kind of translation of )what you are hearing is a great possibility to train your ears. It might very well be that other measurement setups would show slightly different FR  curves. It would not be a good idea to compare the curves of different measurement setups and denounce one of the measurement approaches as faulty or inferior. I guess you should only stick to a certain approach and judge the performance of headphones on that very setup/standard. As for me, I am really grateful that I have had the possibility of having my headphones measured by purrin. Plus,  not being a blind follower of anybody, I can say I really trust his expertise. Almost anything he has said about my phones, good or bad, I could correlate with.
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Marvey

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #28 on: June 17, 2013, 07:03:58 PM »

Did Rin actually make statements to the effect of "UERM is a rip off - it's a tweaked TF10 - shame on UE" or was that Ink's interpretation?

Quoting from his UERM article: "ON SECOND THOUGHT #4: Is it just me, or the frequency response of the UERM really resembles that of good old Triple.Fi 10 Pro? You be the judge, but as far as their frequency responses are concerned, the deviation here is a matter of a simple crossover circuit / acoustic damper modification. Of course, above response of TF10 can only be achieved when it is situated at the reference plane, meaning when it is custom-molded. Still, there is a chance for reasonable doubt when the price difference is x10. Just sayin', that's all."


Doesn't sound like a big deal to me. Seems harmless enough.

Regardless of sound, x10 x2.75 - 4.0 price is the cost of customs = low volume / individually made = special fit (I can mow the lawn, be prancing rock star onstage, or engage in mortal combat with foes while I wear them without fear of them falling off). Yeah, the guys at the UE lab in Irvine need to be paid. CA needs to get its taxes, including weird stuff like disability and unemployment insurance. USA needs its cut too. The clean-room where they make the customs needs environmental controls and electricity, which are not free. Last I saw, the UERMs were individually made by USA techs in the USA. I'm pretty sure they are not relying on illegal aliens or teenagers. (I've visited their facilities.) It's probably more expensive for UE to make UERMs than Apple to make iPhones. I'm sure when the molds aren't totally right (which happens 100% of the time counting folks who send theirs in multiple times), UE punishes their employees by making them work for free to fix the molds. Yeah, everything should be free and UE is a bunch of evil corporate capitalists.


P.S.

Amazon TF10 = $255
UERM (meet special) = $700 (including free mold)
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 07:12:44 PM by purrin »
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Anaxilus.

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Re: TF10 = UERM?; A case against the pseudo objective crowd
« Reply #29 on: June 17, 2013, 08:22:15 PM »

Did Rin actually make statements to the effect of "UERM is a rip off - it's a tweaked TF10 - shame on UE" or was that Ink's interpretation?

Quoting from his UERM article: "ON SECOND THOUGHT #4: Is it just me, or the frequency response of the UERM really resembles that of good old Triple.Fi 10 Pro? You be the judge, but as far as their frequency responses are concerned, the deviation here is a matter of a simple crossover circuit / acoustic damper modification. Of course, above response of TF10 can only be achieved when it is situated at the reference plane, meaning when it is custom-molded. Still, there is a chance for reasonable doubt when the price difference is x10. Just sayin', that's all."

You also have to look at his Korean site which the linked convo w/ Inks illuminates upon.  Ink's interpretation is the same as mine based on his statements and he is quite intimate w/ Rin.  Inks didn't wake up one day and come to the conclusion on his own.  This is also based on prior email exchanges w/ Inks I had when the article came out telling him/them they need to cool it w/ the continuous trolling conjecture.  The guy does measurements and is soooo technically competent and objective but can't google?  He's just a self righteous troll IMHO.

On a side note, James has purchased my TF10 and it will be sent to Rin for modding and comparison by him and others versus a UERM.  Not sure I can disclose any further details but that should be a cute experiment.
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