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Author Topic: Back to Speakers! And so it begins... again! Madisound BK-16 Fostex fe166 kit.  (Read 37271 times)

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OJneg

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Ok, I'm as giddy as a schoolgirl right now. My mic just came and it is sooo kewl! I've just been walking around my house and back yard with my laptop in hand to measure the ambient sound levels. This is probably the most fun $100 I've spent in audio so far.



And just for reference:
Room:
  • 15' front to back
  • 14' side to side, but there a large opening on the left side (where the picture is taken from)
  • Ceiling is sloped from side to side
Speakers (measured from baffle):
  • 4.5' from the front wall, 10.5' from back
  • 5.5' apart, toed it ~15 degrees
Mic:
  • 4' from the back wall
  • Forms a ~6' equalateral triangle with speakers.
  • This is only about a foot closer than where I normally sit. But I am not on the same vertical axis as the mic (a bit above obviously)

If anyone sees any faults in how this is set up please tell me.

So questions for Purrin (or anyone): What kind of sweeps do you use? Do you do multiple sweeps then average? Also, what level of smoothing is most telling for these kinds of measurements? I've seen most other speaker plots use 1/6 octave. Thanks.

This positioning is what I found to be subjectively the best given the space. It's roughly the "Rule of Thirds" given here:

http://www.noaudiophile.com/speakercalc/

I want to try a few other placement options including off-axis response if I can.
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Marvey

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Hahaha! Nice....

Really quick since I'm at a work at a client site:
In this order:
  • 1/6 to 1/12 octave for surgical correction of specific driver irregularities at higher frequencies. Will take measurement at 1m to driver.
  • 1/3 to 1/6 octave for surgical correction of "prevailing" issues. By prevailing issues I mean from the overall room, baffle, or other effects which are constant regardless of microphone position. For example. I will put the mic at the listening position, move it a foot left, a foot right, in front, etc. If certain peaks or dips prevail regardless of mic position, then I will apply PEQ to it. Usually these types of peaks are narrow with a Q from 5-10.
  • 1/3 to 1 octave for general overall sound balance.
I use RTA and pink noise for most measurements. The driver measurements - sweeps or MLS gated to avoid reflections past the mic distance. My general preference is a gentle 5-7db slope from 20-20k.  Some advocate more such as a 10db slope. It depends upon the characteristics of the listening room. Less slope is needed for well padded / more diffuse rooms. More slope for more reverberant rooms.

Lots of fun. You'll learn a lot of nuances and really develop your ear for these kinds of things.
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omegakitty

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Looks really good :)
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shipsupt

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Looking good OJ!
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Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Tari

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Wow, really nice.


Now I know you didn't do it, but could you let us know, theoretically if you were to do it, how you would go about it?  Making those speakers, I mean.
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OJneg

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Round 1.

First of all, high SPL LF tones are a no-no with these speakers. Not that that's something I didn't already know. Driver Fs
is only 83 Hz. The surround deforms noticeably when I try to sweep from 20Hz. The response down there is nonexistent as you
would expect. And REW requires high SPL sweeps for some reason I don't know. Very scary, I lunged for the volume knob.
Everything I did is swept from 40Hz.



Not bad! I was expecting worse TBH. Log swept 512k from 40 to 20k. 1/6 smoothing applied. I daresay this looks even better
than Purrin's plot for the BK16 (unequalized, on page 3). But in the next measurements...   

WTF! What happened to my smooth-ish treble? (same smoothing here). Why do I have Grado mountains now? It took me a while to
figure this out. The original measurement was taken with the mic parallel to the floor. I had tilted the mic about 30
degrees upward so I could start taking measurements of my OS:MT. I felt eyeballing it midway would be the most fair
comparison. Like so.



I didn't expect it to change the BK12's plots so much though. Lesson learned, mic positioning will change HF response big
time. Now the question is, is the change from the sound hitting the mic at a different angle, or just from being moved 2"
upward? Or something else? I'm not sure. I'll try to parse that out when I start taking off-axis measurements. Current
theory is that this is just the driver being very directional and "beaming", although I would expect the HF response to be
lessened the more it moves off-axis.

FWIW, this last curve represents what I'm actually hearing the most. A nice midrange, a bit of brightness up top, and then a steep roll-off.
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OJneg

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Round 2

So, the OS:MT is a little speaker that I really like. I usually listen to it in the near-field and it sounds a lot different in a bigger space like this. Here's the plot according to Carmody and then my own comparison:






It's amazing how different these speakers sound tonally. Just from listening to sine sweeps you can tell the tonal differences.

I don't have PEQ, but I do have tone controls. Here's that for each speaker.




All of these plots match very well with my subjective impressions. The BK-12's horn couples with the floor to strengthen bass response big time. The OS's downward slope from 2k to 4k makes vocals seemed recessed. I find that the OS needs to be listened to on-axis in this space or else it loses focus. Carmody says that he voiced this loudspeaker with a subtle upper midrange and treble dip (for near-field listening) although it doesn't show up so much in the plots. My ears tell me it's definitely there. In a direct comparison, the BK12 can sound sibilant while the OS is never fatiguing but still has good presence.

So a question for you guys, do the bumps at ~125 and ~250 look to be room modes, or is it the horn resonances as was found in BK16? Because they're definitely there for the OS too. I think purrin mentioned comb filtering somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm not sure how much that applies to this system. I'd like to do a cabinet simulation like Arnaud did to figure it out this cabinet's acoustic impedance characteristics.

Overall, the OS is more neutral tonally. I think it has more to do with its conventional design more than anything. Has really nice bass for such a small speaker and is totally non-fatiguing. If you want to compare it to a headphone, it's either the HD650 or LCD2 (without the veil). OTOH the BK12 is super fast and dynamic and articulate. There's something to be said for efficiency and what it gives "speed" as they say. On my 2220, I sat around 12oclock for 87dB of pink noise. For the OS, I was at full gain for 86dB. There's always the trade off between size/efficiency/bass response. The BK12 is probably best compared to a Grado that is tuned for extra bass. I hesitate to make that comparison because of the stigma and because it's not nearly as fatiguing as a Grado. I like it though.

Thanks for reading. Let's keep this thread going.  :)p7


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Marvey

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So a question for you guys, do the bumps at ~125 and ~250 look to be room modes, or is it the horn resonances as was found in BK16? Because they're definitely there for the OS too. I think purrin mentioned comb filtering somewhere earlier in this thread, but I'm not sure how much that applies to this system.

The BK-12 measurements have peaks at 120Hz and 240Hz with a dip at 190Hz. The OS speakers have a similar response, but not as exaggerated. The dip is also lower at 175Hz. Probably a combination of the room or floor and effects of the horn or comb filtering. Try taking 1/12 octave measurements 1/2' from the horn and 1/2' from the driver if you are curious what it is. There's nothing more fun than trying to figure out what's going by gathering more and more data.

The output from the horn is going to be out of phase and also time delayed from the Fostex driver. That will do some funky stuff to the FR. It's a trade-off. We lose phase coherency and time alignment to get efficiency (bass response) leveraged from the back loaded horn.

One thing you may want to try are some stands to raise the BK-12s off the floor. Less bass @ 120Hz. The downside is that you may end up losing bass below that for something which doesn't go that low anyways. The fun part is integrating a sub. That's another can of worms and trade-offs, e.g. put a sub in the corner to increase efficiency, but excite room modes; or put the sub in more neutral place, but have it work harder. It's pretty easy to bottom modest subs with HT. IMO, subs require a dedicated subwoofer processor, i.e. EQ.

The smoothness of the smaller Fostex FE126? driver over the 6.5" FE166En in the BK-16 kit is expected. It's nice to know how smooth is it (I don't think I've ever seen a real life measurement.) The FE166En's have a few peaks / cone breakup in the upper mids / lower treble before rolling off, which is noticeable. The FE126 extends much further up to the mid-treble before cone breakup and roll-off. Of course the downside is that a strong signal below 40Hz will blow up the cone of the smaller driver. Again, it's all trade-offs.

My next project will be taking the drivers from the Moth Cicadas. Those are 8" drivers and sound even faster. It's strange, but in terms of "speed", 8" > 6.5" > 5". Go figure. Craig mentioned those are high Qts drivers where I can go sealed, which would be ideal for sub integration.
« Last Edit: July 26, 2013, 02:54:35 AM by purrin »
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OJneg

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@Tari
Maybe I'm not getting the cut of your jib, but here's the hybrid album of when I built the BK12 and the hi-fi rack. $50 of ply from Home Depot for the cabinet (and I had plenty extra). Madisound sells the pre-cut cabinet which is a better idea if you don't have the tools or experience to make the cuts yourself. You would just need to glue and screw. Here's the imgur album.
http://imgur.com/a/YuZaj
This was during winter break I think. And this is pre-Tung Oil + Gloss. The Tung Oil gives it a much richer tone that you see now.

@purrin
Yep, those horn measurements will be next. I did desk and nearfield measurements for the OS today. Also measured the OS's port output, which wasn't very fruitful. I'll try placing the mic closer next time or maybe measuring in an open space like JA does. Seeing as how this is the full-range horn club, I won't bother posting any more of the OS plots unless you guys want them.

I'm interested to see how you integrate the Cicadas into your system. They look to have some particularly bad treble nasties according to the Stereophile measurements. Are you going to try to go the purist route again and work 'em without a xover?

Also with regards to the measurements, REW help section mentions that LF measurements are best taken with the mic tilted vertically upwards. Why is this? Am I plotting even poorer bass response if it's horizontal? Thanks again.
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Marvey

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The rack is awesome!
  • Try shoving the mic almost into the port of the OS. Make sure no obstructions (floor, walls, surfaces) are nearby.
  • Continue with OS measurements. It's a good reference and comparison with the backloaded horn measurements.
  • The Cicadas have severe treble peaks. I would still go no passive x-over / passive EQ circuits because that would defeat the point of a fast, highly power efficient speaker system. I would go digital PEQ to try to correct them.
  • Because bass is omni-directional, pointing the mic up would place an emphasis on the bass measurement and "filter out" the mids / treble. Are you getting poorer response in the high bass? High bass is still somewhat directional and factors such as floor bounce might not be heard by the mic pointing upward. You just have to play with things and use your ears. 1/3 octave noise is a good tool too.
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