Topic: Sound City (Read 6768 times)

Marvey · « **Reply #20 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:01:54 PM »

Yeah, that's horrible. I've read about that story where the studios took Steve Albini's master tapes for In Utero (which were good to go), and remastered them again with moar compression.

DaveBSC · « **Reply #21 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:14:55 PM »

Quote from: purrin on March 17, 2013, 04:01:54 PM

Yeah, that's horrible. I've read about that story where the studios took Steve Albini's master tapes for In Utero (which were good to go), and remastered them again with moar compression.

Friends don't let friends buy remasters. Originals always win, and that often includes MFSL masters as well. Though I will say that Analogue Productions has been doing amazing work with the old Blue Note Jazz albums. They destroy those shitty RVG remasters from a few years back.

AstralStorm · « **Reply #22 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:20:01 PM »

About that "highly layered" thing - dynamic range is the difference in loudness. If there's always signal in the background, dynamic range is reduced. Usual suspect is reverberated cymbals all the time - they're very wideband and loud, so if you add anything else between them, DR is severly reduced while it might not sound wrong one bit.
(However, such reverberated cymbals are tantamount to noise most of the time. Some don't like that.)

Marvey · « **Reply #23 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:22:58 PM »

Quote from: ultrabike on March 17, 2013, 06:42:22 AM

I really liked the video, and learned a little about the recording and mixing process. I also spotted a set of Fostex T20RPs and Sony MDR-V700DJs, but for some reason no IEMs. As far as Foo Fighters, my wife likes their music quite a bit. I think Foo Fighters is OK.

Yeah, that was awesome spotting the headphones. I don't think the IEM thing got going until Jerry Harvey invented them just a few years ago.

Quote from: ultrabike on March 17, 2013, 06:42:22 AM

As far as Foo Fighters, my wife likes their music quite a bit. I think Foo Fighters is OK.

What about Foo Fighters featuring Faul McCartney? or Foo Fighters featuring a quadrupedal ruminant mammal that "bleats"

AstralStorm · « **Reply #24 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:42:23 PM »

I forgot to add - electric guitars as well, they're wideband sources of constant noise. Tend to throw stupid DRC (as well as DR measurements) for a loop.

You could technically make them, vocals and percussion quieter, but it wouldn't make for much higher dynamic range, unless DRC is enabled or there's (soft) clipping.
I'm pretty certain the album has a relatively moderate amount of soft clipping. I'd prefer it to have none. Especially the first track suffers from this, easily noticeable amount of second order distortion most of the time.

I also wonder about TT Meter: what kind of window size does it use?

omegakitty · « **Reply #25 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »

http://www.computeraudiophile.com/f13-audiophile-downloads/bowie-new-album-hd-tracks-15381/

Quote (selected)

Chris, I'll save you the trouble. It will have lousy DR values, it has compression, that is how Bowie wants it, it is loud, it's rock, it ain't the opera. Stay away if that troubles you. The music is great, it sounds loud and great - better the louder it gets.

(average DR6)

AstralStorm · « **Reply #26 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:54:19 PM »

Straight average DR is a quite poor measure, especially if the window size is short. For example, just a short part that's compressed will make the number low, similarly, a short part that's high dynamic range will inflate the number. I'd rather use a more complex ways of averaging, less sensitive to such outliers, e.g. geometric or harmonic mean.

Heck, they provide RMS loudness - that's typically a good predictor. R128 or ReplayGain values are even better, they tend to be much higher decrease for compressed music.

omegakitty · « **Reply #27 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:57:03 PM »

Quote from: AstralStorm on March 17, 2013, 04:54:19 PM

Straight average DR is a quite poor measure, especially if the window size is short. For example, just a short part that's compressed will make the number low, similarly, a short part that's high dynamic range will inflate the number. I'd rather use a more complex ways of averaging, less sensitive to such outliers, e.g. geometric or harmonic mean.

That was my average (well more accurately the mode).

DR values per track is a very good way to measure dynamic range. Songs are after all for the most part under 5 minutes.

If it were averaged per album I would lend more credit to what you're saying.

DR6 0.00 dB -7.59 dB 3:27 01-The Next Day
DR7 -0.57 dB -9.97 dB 2:58 02-Dirty Boys
DR6 0.00 dB -7.45 dB 3:57 03-The Stars (Are Out Tonight)
DR6 -0.49 dB -7.78 dB 3:58 04-Love Is Lost
DR6 -0.51 dB -9.26 dB 4:09 05-Where Are We Now?
DR7 -0.32 dB -8.13 dB 3:02 06-Valentine's Day
DR6 -0.39 dB -7.92 dB 3:12 07-If You Can See Me
DR7 -0.55 dB -8.17 dB 3:45 08-I'd Rather Be High
DR4 -0.94 dB -7.39 dB 4:10 09-Boss Of Me
DR6 -0.58 dB -8.42 dB 3:22 10-Dancing Out In Space
DR6 -0.41 dB -7.97 dB 4:34 11-How Does The Grass Grow?
DR6 -0.29 dB -7.62 dB 3:32 12-(You Will) Set The World On Fire
DR7 0.00 dB -8.87 dB 4:38 13-You Feel So Lonely You Could Die
DR6 -0.63 dB -9.28 dB 4:25 14-Heat
DR7 -0.09 dB -9.95 dB 2:31 15-So She
DR7 -0.34 dB -9.80 dB 2:02 16-Plan
DR7 -0.43 dB -8.36 dB 2:41 17-I'll Take You There

AstralStorm · « **Reply #28 on:** March 17, 2013, 04:58:34 PM »

Yes, but a whole track can have major DR variations within. E.g. intro can be DR12, the loud part with guitars DR4. Averages to e.g. DR6, yet it's way more.
R128 loudness compensation uses windowed RMS over an equal loudness approximating curve with 0.3s window AFAIR. It's pretty accurate. The same way could be used to derive true DR number.

E.g. looking at the Sound City R128 numbers, I'd say tracks "Centipede" and "If I Were Me" are not adversely compressed. Perhaps "Mantra" too.
(Typical number for properly mastered loud music is around -8 dBFS. Some metal and rock tracks go to -12 dBFS, mostly compressed.)

Something older like Kraftwerk averages at -5 dBFS with more in-album variance. (Heck, some have positive) Similarly orchestra.

Loudness war is to be measured by loudness range - dynamic range is way too sensitive and will often underestimate.

Some nice article on EBU R128: https://auphonic.com/blog/2012/08/02/loudness-measurement-and-normalization-ebu-r128-calm-act/

firev1 · « **Reply #29 on:** March 17, 2013, 05:51:28 PM »

Loudness aside, I found the whole movie to be very engaging till the Neve was sold. From there it was a tad boring but otherwise, besides being extremely entertaining, I found the entire show to be very educational. Tbh, I'm grateful for the invention of protools and digital, not for the sound of course but for empowering artiste which may never have made it out there without protools and of course, for allowing me to fuck around and mash up stuff together.

My friends record live but they were only able to do it with the help of protools/computer DAWs. Its still considered, the 'old' way right? As long as the artists interact and record together live

Author Topic: Sound City (Read 6768 times)

Marvey

Re: Sound City

DaveBSC

Re: Sound City

AstralStorm

Re: Sound City

Marvey

Re: Sound City

AstralStorm

Re: Sound City

omegakitty

Re: Sound City

AstralStorm

Re: Sound City

omegakitty

Re: Sound City

AstralStorm

Re: Sound City

firev1

Re: Sound City

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Author Topic: Sound City (Read 6768 times)

omegakitty

omegakitty