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Author Topic: Speakers in Small Rooms  (Read 7363 times)

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Sphinxvc

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Speakers in Small Rooms
« on: February 14, 2013, 01:58:20 AM »

Didn't want to clutter up the shoutbox, but had another question on this...

Posting original shouts for context first:

  • Sphinxvc: You know how it's said "big speakers in a small room" are a no no, are there any average dimensions for a small, medium or large room and any guidelines that prescribe the type and size of speaker you should target?
  • purrin: not really, big speakers can work in small rooms if they are designed for it. Usually big speakers are bad because of huge woofers pounding into close wall boundaries.
  • Tari: Every speaker company has slightly different suggested placement.  Gradient for example you can shove right up against a back wall.  Speakers with back-firing ports need more space.
  • Tari: Also depends on room ratios, if you're going long or short wall, what kind of spacing can you get/do you need from side wall/back wall/listening chair
  • Tari: If you're looking at a specific speaker best thing is to measure the intended room and ask the manufacturer. They may suggest a smaller model than you're looking at.
  • Sphinxvc: Thanks, so the design of the speaker + orientation in the room are factors.  //  Another question, what (if any) are the technical advantages of horn speakers over other designs?  I did some reading last night on a site that touched on this, but the angle there was more on the history of speakers, not an analysis of the benefits/tradeoffs of the different approaches out there.  (Btw, if any of you have good sources to recommend, I’m all ears.)
  • Sphinxvc: To clarify, sources on that kind of information.  Websites, books, etc.
  • Tari: To my knowledge, technical advantages of horns are mainly based on their ability to use a smaller diaphragm than normal speakers to get a desired loudness level.
  • Tari: Smaller diaphragms need less excursion back and forth, which generally means less distortion at these louder volumes.  Since the diaphragm is smaller, the transients are also faster and they are more efficient, needing less crazy amplification.
  • Tari: Here's the article I remember getting most of my horn info when I was looking into some Acapellas: [link]
  • anetode: "Loudspeaker and Headphone Handbook", compiled by Borwick
  • Tari: Here's a couple other articles I remember reading, but they're not as helpful: [link] [link] [link] Anetode's book is probably a lot more complete than my scattered online knowledge.
  • firev1: Do horns need to be listened in farfield or larger room setups?
  • Tari: Not necessarily.  Something like the uno [link] was specifically designed for smaller rooms
  • DaveBSC: Big speaker small room has to do with two things, bass and time/phase issues mostly
  • DaveBSC: The bass problem is obvious. Throw big woofers at a small room and you get nasty standing waves, modes etc. Getting even remotely good bass out of a small room is a huge PITA
  • DaveBSC: Separate subwoofers will often work better because you can position them at ideal points rather than just being part of the bottom of the speaker. You're still gonna need to trap the hell out fo the room though
  • DaveBSC: Other than that, most large speakers are not time/phase accurate, which becomes more noticeable if you are sitting fairly close to them. Big cabinets also mean more diffraction issues
  • DaveBSC: In very general terms, if any dimension is under 14 feet, you're likely to do better with a smaller two-way
  • DaveBSC: Front wall distance depends on the design, some work better than others when close to the wall. Dipoles need the most room.
  • DaveBSC: Horns can suck donkey balls (anything made by Klipsch) or be extremely great, like those made by Cessaro. Bass from horns is not easy unless its REALLY LARGE. Efficiency is off the charts. If you like flea-watt SET amps, horn s are your friends.

So my question:

Is it even possible to get full range out of a smaller room?  Even assuming near-perfect acoustics, most smaller speakers aren't rated very low.   

My premise: I'm (perhaps mistakenly) assuming that adding a sub to a small two-way would just recreate the same problems as having big speaker/small room.
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omegakitty

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #1 on: February 14, 2013, 02:03:02 AM »

It's possible to get a good usable 40 Hz out of some designs.

The designs may not be conventional, ie corner loaded single driver horns and such. Not sure what is out there for commercial offerings, but plenty of DIY stuff that will fit the criteria.
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anetode

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #2 on: February 14, 2013, 02:22:53 AM »

I was talking about this at one room at RMAF. The idea is that you have several hefty planar magnetic line source mounted to a wall working down to 80hz & backed up by a thin transmission-line sub.  The system control has a built in Audessey XT to integrate all of the units, add a couple of minor room treatments and you're left with a superb full-bandwidth  concert-volume setup in a room as small as a bedroom. If you're so inclined http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_wisdom-series.php. Systems which incorporate horns are trickier in terms of taken up space, amping and positioning, from what I understand.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #3 on: February 14, 2013, 10:55:55 AM »

Is it even possible to get full range out of a smaller room?  Even assuming near-perfect acoustics, most smaller speakers aren't rated very low.   

My premise: I'm (perhaps mistakenly) assuming that adding a sub to a small two-way would just recreate the same problems as having big speaker/small room.

It can be done, yes, although if by full range you mean <20Hz, that's going to be tricky. There's just no easy way to get into the infrasonic range without a lot of air movement, which is tough in small spaces. Getting reasonably full range response shouldn't be a problem though. A good monitor should be reasonably flat down to at least 55Hz, so subwoofers will be needed to fill in the rest.

The best way to position a subwoofer is to place it at the intended listening position, then walk over to where you were thinking of placing the sub. You just move around until you hear what sounds like the most even response, and that's where you place it. Room analyzers will make that a lot easier. For a second sub, start at the opposite side of the room from the first sub and work from there. With a full range speaker you can't do any of that. You place the speakers where most of the FR sounds best, and the bass just is what it is, there's not much you can do about it.

From there, you can use corner traps, tri-traps, and ceiling traps to smooth out the response. Suckouts are the worst problem because they can't be fixed with DSP. If peaks are still an issue, you can use DSPeaker's subwoofer EQ boxes to tame those.

Aside from all that, a big speaker necessarily means a larger cabinet, and the larger the cabinet, the more of an impact it has on the sound. The "disappearing act" is when the source of the sound can't be located, it just seems to be coming from free space. Two-way monitors do this better than anything else because of their small size. The larger the speaker, the harder this trick is to pull off. Skinny floorstanders like Audio Physics do a pretty good job, although of course such a narrow baffle means they can only go down to about 35Hz or so, which may be enough depending on the type of music.

The reason is that because "forward-radiators" don't really do that, at least not through most of their FR. They are omnis in bass, and from there the sound hits the front baffle end bends around the sides until you get into the HF range, where eventually the tweeter will start to beam and the width of the baffle will no longer matter. This is a pretty good primer on the subject:
http://www.linkwitzlab.com/diffraction.htm

There is one exception to the rule: flow-resistance speakers which are pretty much the only "true" forward radiators. I haven't heard one in a small room, but in theory they should be fairly immune to *most* small room problems - they send pretty much nothing to the sides and rear, so close wall placement necessitated by a small space basically shouldn't matter because you won't hear the reflections with a time delay. As with any box speaker though, they'll still act as omnis in the bass region and thus will require some bass trapping.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2013, 11:01:10 AM by DaveBSC »
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AstralStorm

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #4 on: February 14, 2013, 09:58:58 PM »

I'm pretty sure (from what I heard) dipoles like Linkwitz' designs do the disappearing act even better. The downside is that any room coloration and reverberation is doubled.
Unipolar should do that similarly and be even less sensitive to positioning.

Of course it's physically impossible to build such a woofer of small size.
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Sphinxvc

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2013, 02:55:19 AM »

I was talking about this at one room at RMAF. The idea is that you have several hefty planar magnetic line source mounted to a wall working down to 80hz & backed up by a thin transmission-line sub.  The system control has a built in Audessey XT to integrate all of the units, add a couple of minor room treatments and you're left with a superb full-bandwidth  concert-volume setup in a room as small as a bedroom. If you're so inclined http://www.wisdomaudio.com/products_wisdom-series.php. Systems which incorporate horns are trickier in terms of taken up space, amping and positioning, from what I understand.

Pretty cool but $30K, yikes.  Well beyond my means. 

It can be done, yes, although if by full range you mean <20Hz, that's going to be tricky. There's just no easy way to get into the infrasonic range without a lot of air movement, which is tough in small spaces. Getting reasonably full range response shouldn't be a problem though. A good monitor should be reasonably flat down to at least 55Hz, so subwoofers will be needed to fill in the rest.

I meant 20-22hz to 20khz by "full range" / btw, that whole post was v. helpful. 

I think I've already experienced the 'smaller cabinet, more disappearing effect' effect in practice, I use a floor standing 2-way right now in my "small room", and while the baffle is relatively narrow I recall that the stand mounted version of this exact 2-way disappeared more when I auditioned it.

Are pro compact monitors and non-pro compact monitors quite different, or do the undesirable qualities you warned about in the "what do you value in a pair of speakers" thread about pro monitors ALSO apply to most non-pro compact monitors?

By non-pro compact monitors I mean Wilson, Harbeth, Devore, Gallo, etc. 

Excerpt: "Pro monitors definitely have their benefits, but also often have drawbacks as well. Many are designed as tools, not to be enjoyable in the listening room. What you get from these types of monitors is a rather matter of fact presentation designed to avoid surface reflections and give the mixing or mastering engineer as clear as possible of a response so that they can hear their mistakes and fix them. I do not enjoy listening to these types of monitors, they typically have terrible soundstaging (that's not the point) and are often rather boring."
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rhythmdevils

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2013, 03:14:48 AM »

I dont know who wrote that but someone calling speakers boring sends up red flags for me. Chances are he would find grados and ultrasones "fun".  Doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt know what hea talking about but thats one of the tells Ive learned over the years.
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firev1

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2013, 10:42:58 AM »

I'm just aiming for a purer midrange rather than full spectrum. I can live with sound down to 50hz. Magneplanars are backwall reactive just like any other flat panel right?

Just an interesting story, I know of a guy with harbeth monitor 40's running some crazy setup in a small room but he plays real softly. Point is, I think big speakers can work in small rooms but you will have to listen real soft.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2013, 12:03:12 PM »

I dont know who wrote that but someone calling speakers boring sends up red flags for me. Chances are he would find grados and ultrasones "fun".  Doesnt necessarily mean he doesnt know what hea talking about but thats one of the tells Ive learned over the years.

 :)p13 I wrote it. I definitely do NOT find Grados or Ultrasones fun. I like the Paradox, which would be an excellent mixing or mastering companion. The Paradox has a lot in common with most pro monitors in terms of their neutrality. There's a hell of a lot more to making a speaker than just flat on-axis response though. What I meant by "boring" is that I don't enjoy kicking back and listening to music on a pair of Mackies. A good listening experience requires great imaging, and as I said that's not the point with most pro-monitors. They are designed to sit near-field over a mixing console and be as flat and revealing as possible. Some like the much revered Yamahas are downright unpleasant. I owned $2,000/pr Dynaudio BM12A actives for awhile. They were boring, not because of FR but because of imaging. The sound existed in a little box inside the dimensions of the speaker. I've had similar problems with ESLs which is why I don't like most of those either.

Here's what Lou of Daedalus had to say about why he's not doing an active version of his upcoming Pan 3-way monitor:

"I feel that one of the reasons those type of studio monitors sound so bad is that they use internal amplifiers (of questionable quality) and electronic crossovers, so no they will not be powered. I know that can be convenient for a small studio but that is a compromise i don't care to make."
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DaveBSC

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Re: Speakers in Small Rooms
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2013, 12:17:15 PM »

Are pro compact monitors and non-pro compact monitors quite different, or do the undesirable qualities you warned about in the "what do you value in a pair of speakers" thread about pro monitors ALSO apply to most non-pro compact monitors?

By non-pro compact monitors I mean Wilson, Harbeth, Devore, Gallo, etc. 

No, quite the opposite in fact. Most pros have terrible soundstaging, whereas traditional 2-way monitors absolutely excel at it, as I've been saying. I can't say I'm a particular fan of Wilson, Harbeth, or Devore though. Many of the Wilsons I've heard have been thin, uneven, and excessively bright, and I have a common issue with Harbeth and DeVore - I want to hear the driver, NOT the cabinet. Harbeth design basically hasn't moved much beyond 1976, and DeVore has serious problems with his crossover designs, which are only exacerbated by all the cabinet ringing. They're definitely better than Harbeths, but would I buy a Silverback at $15K? Not a chance.

This guy on the other hand I could listen to all day, everyday.

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