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Author Topic: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.  (Read 6699 times)

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anetode

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Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« on: September 09, 2012, 09:51:42 PM »

Carried over from what mav said on the shoutbox, and I'm going to fill this out later, let's start with the biggest pet peeve. "Placebo" in general is a medical term to explain anomolous efficacy in sham medical treatments. It's not a pejorative term to be thrown about by audiophiles and it's not a disease suffered by tone deaf philistines.

"Expectation bias" is closer to the heart of the issue, though it's far from the only cognitive bias at play. Most cognitive biases are inherent to being a human, even more so if you're a well educated human - and that is precisely because such biases are often useful. I'll crack open a book to find a better reference later, but the fist couple of pages in http://users.ecs.soton.ac.uk/id/Cognitive%20Biases.pdf are a good start. And something that I think RD would also appreciate is the "bias blind spot" discussed at http://web.missouri.edu/~segerti/capstone/Biasinjudgement.pdf

You can train yourself to identify specific cognitive biases and to recognize and minimize their effect, though doing so is much harder than it sounds and few people can do it without education and help from others. (One example is the huge success of cognitive-behavioral therapy)

I promise not to go all head-fi ss on this. At least not too much.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 10:03:14 PM by anetode »
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DaveBSC

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2012, 10:28:55 PM »

Excellent post. I don't mean to attack anyone specifically, but the shouts of "placebo!!!" can be obnoxious, as can the claims that "most of the differences people claim to hear don't exist" or something to that effect. When it comes to something like a headphone, you can often point to a specific measurement result and say "this area is going to sound a certain way" which different people may react to differently. Some of us are more sensitive to aggressive treble response than others, for example. When you take two different products where the majority of measured differences are theoretically below the audible threshold, that's a different story, and in those cases I would wonder on what basis you can claim that someone else can or cannot claim to hear an acoustic phenomena.

When I talk about expectation bias, there's a lot of factors that go into play. Does the new product cost more than what it intends to replace? A lot more? Does it weigh more, or seem more substantial? Has it been well reviewed? Does it come from a company with a strong focus on design and engineering? Does it have additional features or other bells and whistles?

If the answer to most or all of those questions is yes, then there's the strong potential for expectation bias, particularly if you've already paid for the product as opposed to an audition that you can walk away from. You WANT the product to succeed, you've taken a risk and you want reward, and you want to feel like you've made the right decision, especially if it weighs 80lbs. and dragging it back out the door to be sent back is going to be a huge PITA.

I don't think learning to ignore these factors is impossible. I've had countless situations where I've thought "I just don't hear any difference" or "this sounds different but I don't think it's better" or just "this is crap". Sometimes it's very close one way or the other, and in those situations blind testing can be useful but I wouldn't say it's necessary in all cases. The only way I feel blind testing is useful though is when the method is exactly the same as what one uses for sighted tests - same songs, same listening time, same system etc.

I think blind testing of large groups in unfamiliar locations with unfamiliar systems with unfamiliar songs played at pre-determined durations is utterly useless. That might be good enough to tell a Maggie apart from a B&W, but for two largely similar DACs? Forget it, you'll get 50/50.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2012, 10:37:35 PM by DaveBSC »
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donunus

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2012, 11:32:44 PM »

I also pretty much hate it when tin eared sluts shout placebo. Annoying  :)p8
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electropop

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #3 on: September 10, 2012, 12:13:28 AM »

I think blind testing of large groups in unfamiliar locations with unfamiliar systems with unfamiliar songs played at pre-determined durations is utterly useless. That might be good enough to tell a Maggie apart from a B&W, but for two largely similar DACs? Forget it, you'll get 50/50.

Might depend on what you're trying to distinguish. I did a bit of 320kbps vs Flac testing at my friend's house with resolving enough gear (HD600 and an Asio configured interface, probably from E-mu). It was different parts of the same song, but it was clear every time to my ears. I think I did 10-15 listens, though with the possibility to repeat, and got each one right. Without the possibility to repeat, my concentration might not just be good enough to tell with one listen, regardless of what I'm trying to tell apart, exception probably being the two last components of a gear chain.

But yes, "largely similar dacs" without familiarized gear is another story, I'll agree on that.
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maverickronin

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #4 on: September 10, 2012, 12:21:51 AM »

Carried over from what mav said on the shoutbox, and I'm going to fill this out later, let's start with the biggest pet peeve. "Placebo" in general is a medical term to explain anomolous efficacy in sham medical treatments. It's not a pejorative term to be thrown about by audiophiles and it's not a disease suffered by tone deaf philistines.

Thanks for finding some good links.  I was having a hard time finding some that articulated my points properly.

Excellent post. I don't mean to attack anyone specifically, but the shouts of "placebo!!!" can be obnoxious, as can the claims that "most of the differences people claim to hear don't exist" or something to that effect.  When it comes to something like a headphone, you can often point to a specific measurement result and say "this area is going to sound a certain way" which different people may react to differently. Some of us are more sensitive to aggressive treble response than others, for example. When you take two different products where the majority of measured differences are theoretically below the audible threshold, that's a different story, and in those cases I would wonder on what basis you can claim that someone else can or cannot claim to hear an acoustic phenomena.

This is a better place have a discussion.

I'd say that kind of thing about a lot of amps and DACs but I'm not going to say something silly like "they all sound the same".  Some clearly don't.  In those cases it's usually pretty easy to figure out why.  Just like you mentioned with headphones, even without an ABX trial I can be pretty sure that my Bottlehead Crack or any other similarly bare-bones SET OTL amp sounds different from your usual solid state amp based on this measurement I took of mine.

That's an extreme example, but it illustrates a point.  I come at this from a skeptical angle and look for a concordance of the evidence.  The question is why should I believe this.  Just experiencing it isn't good enough.  As a human, my senses are fallible and my memory is imperfect.  Sometimes I'm convinced I heard something that disappears upon closer inspection and sometimes I miss things that should be glaringly obvious.  If something I experience doesn't fit into my understanding of the way the world should work then I question it in order to discover which is mistaken.

In the Crack's case I think I hear a difference, I can measure a difference, I have a theoretical model that predicts the measurements to some degree, and the level of measured non-linearities easily surpass any reasonable threshold that has been proposed.  I could do an ABX as well but with all that, why bother?

OTOH (just as a quick and dirty example) say two pieces of equipment are put through a decently designed set of measurements and no non-linearities break something like -70 or -80dB.  I'm not too likely to believe someone who says they can tell them apart unless they have more evidence to back up their claim because I see a claim like that as fairly outlandish.

Here's another way to think of it.  Even if everything really did sou nd the same there would still be plenty of people claiming to hear differences.  How do you separate t



One more thing too.

Over here at Changstar my purpose isn't to beat you over the head with my opinion because I disagree with most people here on this particular subject.  It is interesting to talk about though and this does give me an opportunity to clarify what I was trying to get across in the shout box yesterday so that we can understand each other.  It might not go anywhere, but it also might be an interesting opportunity to come up with some research ideas.

If any of you remember posts I've made in the sound science forum over at head-fi before I got a little burned out on it you may have noticed I usually took a more aggressive tone there.  That's usually because of the intended audience.  Over there I was pretty much trying to warn those who were new to the hobby about (what I have reason to believe are) common misconceptions that can cost them a lot of money but won't provide any tangible benefit.

The headphone FOTM bandwagons are bad enough but seeing n00bs getting caught up in amp/DAC/cable FTOM bandwagons when they either won't benefit from any of those things or the benefits are dramatically overstated is just awful.  Other people buy and expensive pair of headphones and instead of discoveing that they just don't like headphone listening that much they get told to spend more and more money on amps and DACs that will be a far smaller upgrade than just new headphones to plug into their ipod, laptop, or receiver.  It makes me angry seeing people spend all that money on something they were told would help them enjoy their headphones but doesn't.  It makes me want to do something to help, even if it's just a drop in the ocean.

Over here we're not really handing out advice to n00bs and AFIK nobody here is promoting something as snake-oil as cables so that's not really an issue.  I still may pop in to other threads from time to time with a "devil's advocate" sort of post but that will mostly likely be to provide counterpoint to any lurkers and not to just bother the people I disagree with.

Just because I disagree with someone on a few issues doesn't mean I can't agree with them or respect them for their work in other areas.  I mean, I think purrin is dead wrong in a lot of the stuff he says about amps and DACs but I think his CSD plots are an amazing advance in headphone measurements.  A few other people do them with headphones but for the most part their techniques are flawed and the results are too inconsistent to be very useful.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2012, 03:29:05 AM »

Might depend on what you're trying to distinguish. I did a bit of 320kbps vs Flac testing at my friend's house with resolving enough gear (HD600 and an Asio configured interface, probably from E-mu). It was different parts of the same song, but it was clear every time to my ears. I think I did 10-15 listens, though with the possibility to repeat, and got each one right. Without the possibility to repeat, my concentration might not just be good enough to tell with one listen, regardless of what I'm trying to tell apart, exception probably being the two last components of a gear chain.

But yes, "largely similar dacs" without familiarized gear is another story, I'll agree on that.

Having equipment good enough to resolve small differences is important, as is familiarity with that equipment. For example, I'm pretty sure that my HM-801 sounds ever so slightly better after it's warmed up - roughly half an hour. The Paradox is the only headphone I have where I've ever noticed any sonic difference between cold and warm. Is it all in my head? Possibly, I don't have two 801s to compare, and there's the possibility that they would be different enough to invalidate that result anyway.

Take Esoteric's K-03 and K-01. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you just put together a system with those two players in a room and invited 50 people to ABX test them, the end result would be 50/50.
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DaveBSC

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2012, 03:50:31 AM »

Tube amps and particularly SETs distort, and they distort differently than SS amps do. A very neutral sounding SS amp should be easy to tell apart from a very "tubey" SET. You can engineer a SS Class A amp to sound very tube like by purposefully not chasing the hyper low distortion of the conventional A/B amp. I'm of the opinion that chasing more zeros in your distortion figures actually leads to a worse sounding amp, or at least a more clinical one.

The big Karan amps are some of my absolute favorites. I haven't seen bench results for them, but their published specs are not much different from amps at 1/10 the price other than the insane damping factor they have (10,000+). It's possible that the reason why a Karan KA S400 sounds so much better than an amp like a Parasound A21 would show up on the bench. I don't know.
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Marvey

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2012, 04:10:00 AM »

Tube amps and particularly SETs distort, and they distort differently than SS amps do. A very neutral sounding SS amp should be easy to tell apart from a very "tubey" SET. You can engineer a SS Class A amp to sound very tube like by purposefully not chasing the hyper low distortion of the conventional A/B amp. I'm of the opinion that chasing more zeros in your distortion figures actually leads to a worse sounding amp, or at least a more clinical one.

That has been my experience as well. Anax and I tried various combinations resistors and levels capacitance for the feedback circuit of the S7 last week for almost an entire day. Our preferred setups were actually those which really straddled the line with linearity and extension. (Less feedback to a certain point sounded better.) Our experiences mirrored those of those Nelson Pass tales.

I'm not sure what gives, and what we did can hardly be considered scientific. If anything, it's more voodoo or intuition based on the powers of the Force.

One analogous anecdote I can offer is this: there is less information coming from the HD800 with the protective sleeves on than with the sleeves off. (The FR differences are well up in the highest treble octave, and not significant). Yet the CSD / dist. measurements with the protective sleeves on are much cleaner. So in effect, the cloth sleeve cleans up garbage, but yet at the same time also removes information. (Seems to make sense on an intuitive level right?)

So sometimes I wonder if the usual suite of test measurements really tell us what we need to know or measure only very limited aspects of audio reproduction. It made me more carefully consider things I hear from experienced amp designers: "Push-pull has less distortion, it removes distortion, but it also removes information" or "less stuff in the path, the better"

This question of course would be even more difficult with amps or DACs.

Ultimately these questions delve into more metaphysical ones.
« Last Edit: September 10, 2012, 04:15:19 AM by purrin »
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wiinippongamer

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2012, 05:26:46 AM »

@anedote Placebo and "Expectation bias" are the same exact thing...
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Marvey

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Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2012, 06:04:23 AM »

The expectation bias thing can certainly go both ways or every which way. People who may want to hear something will hear something. People who don't want to hear something may not hear something. Cables are certainly a clear example of this.

Even the CSD measurements I crank out are subject to expectation bias. I may for example, decide to run additional tests on headphones which I think are good but measure badly in the hopes of getting a good looking measurement. Or I may decide to be sloppy on measurements of headphones which I think are bad. You guys certainly know that I have been affected by this before, and its one of the reasons why I decided to create a forum such as this where knowledgeable people would be able to point out errors.

I've actually become a lot more cognizant of expectation bias myself. I find myself doing more tedious things to minimize it: developing "pre-flight" checklists, implementing more regimented processes, i.e. calibration, standardization of reference levels, performing several measurements at different times, etc. It's all good although that this point, headphones measurements don't seem to be very fun anymore.

Sometimes, I think expectation bias may be a good thing. As when it acts as a self-correcting mechanism. The "wait, it can't be that bad, let me check to see if everything is OK".


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