CHANGSTAR: Audiophile Headphone Reviews and Early 90s Style BBS

  • December 31, 2015, 11:10:01 AM
  • Welcome, Guest
Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Advanced search  
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5

Author Topic: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.  (Read 6699 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

burnspbesq

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +50/-23
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 640
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #30 on: December 26, 2012, 04:31:03 AM »

... I often wish there was a codified phrasebook so audiophiles would agree on what exactly each colorful descriptor is synonymous to

Preach it.
Logged

Tari

  • Poet Laureate of Changstaria
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +245/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 854
  • Is tari a wizard
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #31 on: December 26, 2012, 04:45:58 AM »

Stereophile has a glossary, including technical terms as well as subjective descriptors.  Not sure how universal it is but at least it makes an attempt at codification.  I know Purrin has linked to a PDF in the past as well with a whole bunch of terms. 


http://www.stereophile.com//reference/50/


The interactive FR chart that many have posted links to also has subjective descriptors below to describe emphasis in those frequencies:


http://www.independentrecording.net/irn/resources/freqchart/main_display.htm
Logged

ihasmario

  • Powder Monkey
  • *
  • Brownie Points: +17/-27
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 63
  • Follow Your Dreams - Arif
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #32 on: December 26, 2012, 08:13:36 AM »

Bloat is a quantitative and qualitative value relative to magnitude and speed (lack of).  Anemic bass is just the inverse.
[/flash]

But does bloat refer to an excess of bass, or a quality of bass? There is too much ambiguity in the term, when considered alongside other terms which bloat could describe, including descriptions of relative sound pressures and timbrel qualities.

Just like other bass-specific terms like "Boomy Bass". Does it refer to the relative pressure of bass and other frequencies, or does it refer to an excess of resonance? Or even a poor spectral decay?


words like "anemic" are unambiguous enough to communicate ideas like lack or excess.

Here's my problem, the word anemic, when used to refer to audio is not unambiguous. Taking the actual definitions of the word, you could look at something that lacks vigour, power, what have you. Does this refer to the difference between a speaker with a bass roll off compared to a neutral one, or does it refer to the difference between a neutral small balanced armature and a neutral speaker?

It gets even more ambiguous when we look at "lacking colour". Which, in audiophile terms would mean that the bass is exactly how it should be.

But that's another peeve of mine - "colour". Tonal balance in and of itself doesn't have a colour - and that's coming from someone with synaesthesia (though it may be different for others). Tonal balance has a size and shape, to me (for example, violins on the LCD-2 sound like violas with violin strings, playing violin parts). It's much more applicable to describe tonal balance in shades, than colour, if you ask me. But even that is pushing it.

While this method of communication may be effective for most, it leaves me scratching my head as to what someone means, if I haven't heard the headphone myself. So, when I hear people using terms which I consider to be timbrel descriptions, like bloat and anemic, to describe tonal balance (absolute outputs/frequency) to describe something they see in a graph, it leaves me confused.
 :shark:
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 08:26:59 AM by ihasmario »
Logged
Audiofire 12 -> Stax T1 -> Stax Lambda Signature

Interested in recording and making music

Solderdude

  • Grab the dScope Kowalski!
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +206/-4
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 907
  • No can do skipper, the dScope was terminated
    • DIY-Audio-Heaven
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2012, 08:16:40 AM »

The way I see it is this.  ::)

While the interactive chart is great for a lot of things it will be hard for people not used to working with this kind of data to describe what they hear.
For instance it is not uncommon for a headphone to have 2, 3 or even more 'problem areas' with dips, peaks and/or resonances at different frequencies.
This would be extremely hard to describe using a relatively small list of words.
The list on stereophile is toooooo big IMO and even when printed it would very likely be very hard to pick out the proper description(s)

Another thing that seems to make it difficult.
Put the same (preferably flawed) headphone on the heads of 10 different people (non-audiophiles) and you get 10 different sonic descriptions that may or may not even be meaningful to others having heard the same headphone.
With (trained) audiophiles there will likely be more coherence among the descriptions though.
Also one should state the amplifier used (more specifically the output resistance).
Listening to a K701 on 120Ohm or low resistance (below 10Ohm) will yield different sonic descriptions even for the same listener.

To add something constructive.
a rather short list with words that could be used on this side alone, no longer than 1 A4 paper could be handy though.
Which 'set' of words needs to be determined as some associate with colours, others with tastes of food, technical terms, music terminology or other kinds of descriptions.
Along with a SHORT list of (easily obtainable ?) reference recordings that should be used with those descriptions.
It is easy to call a headphone 'bass-shy' when there is no bass in the music or 'sibilant' when a recording is crappy and sibilant.

About the 'it's all in your head/placebo/expectation bias' I am in complete agreement with Maverickronin b.t.w. based on what I have found myself.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 08:51:32 AM by Solderdude »
Logged
Use your ears to enjoy music, not as an analyser.

Sphinxvc

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +13/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 157
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2012, 04:09:51 PM »

Err, what? As in full-on psycho-determinism?

Hmm, I meant...actually no, I'm not exactly sure what I meant then, anyway this is what strikes me now: wouldn't it be equally annoying if people were to throw around the terms expectation bias or cognitive bias?  Aren't these usually observed in controlled experiments?  Can we throw the word around casually & diagnose strangers on forums and expect to be correct?  Wouldn't that be, in some way, a form of expectation bias in and of itself?  (That we auto-diagnose all instances of someone reporting a difference heard between two things objective science tells us to be identical as a case of expectation bias, or some other cognitive bias?)  It seems to me the most objective path might be to be skeptical of all findings unless they are found under proper controlled conditions, and if they are not, to offer no explanations whatsoever (like for example, a cognitive bias), and to just remain skeptical (non-dismissive).  I guess I'm just not following the logic completely, but sure, all that aside, placebo's the wrong word.  If however, a cognitive bias is an acceptable logical diagnosis, I would be interested to hear why.
Logged

Tari

  • Poet Laureate of Changstaria
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +245/-1
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 854
  • Is tari a wizard
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2012, 04:38:12 PM »

The point of the objectivists is that when objectively (by the use of measurements and science) there are no differences, then subjective impressions noting differences (which don't exist) must have some underlying psychological explanation to explain why the person is hearing those differences. Various biases are foremost among explanations given. 


Yes, objectivists can also suffer from bias.  It would be interesting to take some hardline (mindless and with no open mind) minions, and convince them two headphones measured the exact same way with every metric known to man and objectively should sound the same.  I'd wager they'd find no differences more often than not even when they are large and obviously audible.


As to psycho-determinism, people are weird.  I don't think their biases can be accurately predicted as they are so erratic (save for the most ardent shills.)  It's hard enough to predict what you'd like based on your "real" preferences.


Edit- By the way, for those who have stuck with Always Sunny through the last couple rough years, Mac conclusively solved the objectivist/subjectivist debate last week in a court case for the ages, best episode in years:


« Last Edit: December 26, 2012, 04:43:14 PM by Tari »
Logged

burnspbesq

  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +50/-23
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 640
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #36 on: December 26, 2012, 05:19:24 PM »

The point of the objectivists is that when objectively (by the use of measurements and science) there are no differences, then subjective impressions noting differences (which don't exist) must have some underlying psychological explanation to explain why the person is hearing those differences. Various biases are foremost among explanations given. 


Yes, objectivists can also suffer from bias.  It would be interesting to take some hardline (mindless and with no open mind) minions, and convince them two headphones measured the exact same way with every metric known to man and objectively should sound the same.  I'd wager they'd find no differences more often than not even when they are large and obviously audible.


As to psycho-determinism, people are weird.  I don't think their biases can be accurately predicted as they are so erratic (save for the most ardent shills.)  It's hard enough to predict what you'd like based on your "real" preferences.


Edit- By the way, for those who have stuck with Always Sunny through the last couple rough years, Mac conclusively solved the objectivist/subjectivist debate last week in a court case for the ages, best episode in years:




The strong version of the objectivist manifesto implicitly assumes two things, one of which is questionable and the other of which is known to be untrue. The questionable thing is that the things we know how to measure are the only things that matter. The untrue thing is that all ears are created equal (yeah, that's shorthand for a whole constellation of things, but I think it's useful shorthand).

Case in point: as I have said on more than one occasion, I seem to be the only person on earth who finds stock HD 800s completely unobjectionable. There are at least three possible explanations: (1) my personal pair of HD 800s, a very early production unit (S/N 003xx), have a different FR from the vast majority of HD 800s; (2) my hearing acuity is roughly inverse to the typical HD 800 FR, so that I literally don't hear the stuff that drives others crazy; or (3) I'm a fucking weirdo. (1) and (2) are measurable. (3), although almost certainly true, can't be measured in any any objective, repeatable way. And if it turns out that (1), (2), and (3) are all true, how do you figure out their relative importance?

My bottom line on this is that measurement can tell us a lot of useful things, but at the end of the day, I don't listen with test equipment, I listen with my ears. I'm lucky enough to have a half century of musical performance experience to draw on in evaluating how accurately audio equipment reproduces the sound of voices and instruments, so my default position is to trust my ears. But that's me, not you, and if some other way of thinking about this stuff works better for you, by all means go with what you know. Life's too short to get bogged down in what is ultimately a quasi-theological dispute.
Logged

AstralStorm

  • Speculation and Speculums
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +250/-164
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 559
  • Warning: causes nearby electronics to go haywire
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #37 on: December 26, 2012, 05:32:49 PM »

Oh, but ears can be measured too and corrected out of the equation. That's why every respectable site should provide the correction curve. (or at least unambiguously specify the equipment used)
Preferably CSD/impulse response of the measurement system as well.

The most important part is that various people are more or less sensitive to various kinds of distortion. Whereas one might not be bothered by, say, half-wave ringing pattern in DBA-02, myself I experience this as a huge 4.5kHz ringing which cannot be suppressed with simple means. Or probably what amount of note decay in general is natural or not - whether superfast decayless is best, because it's closest to perfect impulse response, or whether euphonic "reverb" is better.

Point 1, while valid, is unlikely in case of hearing. We can measure everything of relevance in sound with great correlation to opinions. Perhaps better way of expressing the result is what's missing. For instance, instead of THD, we could use harmonic distortion ratios...
What's more prevalent is that many important things just aren't measured, not that they can't be.
Logged
For sale: Hifiman HE-500; Paradox; Brainwavz B2. PM me if you would like to buy them.

n3rdling

  • Statastic
  • Able Bodied Sailor
  • Pirate
  • ***
  • Brownie Points: +86/-0
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 480
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #38 on: December 26, 2012, 05:38:01 PM »

LOL Tari that episode was amazing, one of my favs
Logged

anetode

  • an objectivist trapped in a subjectivist's body
  • Mate
  • Pirate
  • ****
  • Brownie Points: +178/-7
  • Offline Offline
  • Posts: 1067
Re: Enough with the goddamn placebo already.
« Reply #39 on: December 26, 2012, 05:41:54 PM »

Hmm, I meant...actually no, I'm not exactly sure what I meant then, anyway this is what strikes me now: wouldn't it be equally annoying if people were to throw around the terms expectation bias or cognitive bias?  Aren't these usually observed in controlled experiments?  Can we throw the word around casually & diagnose strangers on forums and expect to be correct?  Wouldn't that be, in some way, a form of expectation bias in and of itself?  (That we auto-diagnose all instances of someone reporting a difference heard between two things objective science tells us to be identical as a case of expectation bias, or some other cognitive bias?)  It seems to me the most objective path might be to be skeptical of all findings unless they are found under proper controlled conditions, and if they are not, to offer no explanations whatsoever (like for example, a cognitive bias), and to just remain skeptical (non-dismissive).  I guess I'm just not following the logic completely, but sure, all that aside, placebo's the wrong word.  If however, a cognitive bias is an acceptable logical diagnosis, I would be interested to hear why.

What's left unsaid is that there are simple physiological differences which account for a great deal of the variability of, say, headphone impressions. So it's not that everything is simplified to cognitive bias and the assumption that measurements will remain the same despite physical factors like fit, ear topography, etc. Where all these factors are accounted for and there is still a difference you move on to other variables, psychoacoustics and beyond to cognitive processing. Depending on what you are talking about the variability may be large enough to prohibit anything but a rough consensus, as in with headphones, or measurably small enough, as with properly made cables, to suggest that most of the differences lay in the mind.

Of course without a controlled test you're not going to have the data to eliminate this influence or that, the real world is woolly and you have to make do with a casual skepticism. When people report hearing differences skepticism first leads you to suspect the simplest causes - measurable differences in equipment past the threshold of audibility, usually as a result of a simple flaw in the gear. When simple differences are accounted for, you either move up the chain of complexity or throw your hands up and say placebo. But if you're using "placebo" as simple code for "expectation bias", then why not be more precise? If you're asking, "well, that's awfully presumptuous of all those assholes to tell others what it is they're hearing" then yes, I can see how it is. But this is usually the response to a perceived paucity of credibility in the evidence presented and any offensiveness in phrasing is more an expression of basic personality traits and lack of forethought than any malicious dismissal.

Finally, it's important to recognize that differences caused by cognitive bias are no less real than those with simple physical causes. So my counter question is, "does being governed by cognition somehow minimize the import of your senses?" There's a reason why companies put an effort into making processed food look like an appetizing product rather than nutritional sludge - the subjective difference is not trivial.

Yes, objectivists can also suffer from bias.  It would be interesting to take some hardline (mindless and with no open mind) minions, and convince them two headphones measured the exact same way with every metric known to man and objectively should sound the same.  I'd wager they'd find no differences more often than not even when they are large and obviously audible.

Totally plausible. Each polarity in bias has its benefits and absurdities.
Logged
Love isn't always on time.
Pages: 1 2 3 [4] 5